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35 Responses

  1. JesusFreak says:

    Reading over the platitudes on the Cath/Orth thread – I’m reminded of what we used to call in the Jesus Movement days, “sloppy agoppy.” (sic) Love bombing never got anyone into the Kingdom.

  2. JesusFreak says:

    P.S. – FIRST

  3. Michael says:

    Love is the only thing that gets you in the kingdom…

  4. filbertz says:

    Happy Birthday, PS40! Best wishes, sista

  5. Xenia says:

    J.Freak,

    Does “sloppy agape” cure “condo-bondo” or is condo-bondo cured by sloppy agape?

  6. Xenia says:

    Whoo, that didn’t even make sense to me!

  7. Nonnie says:

    Xenia’s number 5: Are you speaking in tongues? 😉

  8. Jim says:

    Whole lotta Floridians living in a different kind of condo-bondo. (I had to google it)

  9. Surfer51 says:

    I give up.

    What is “Condo-bondo?”

    Way beyond my 60’s generation.

  10. Pilgrim says:

    Not a new article, but just ran into it and thought it might be worth sharing: Wayward pastors and the problem of the franchise player>/a>/

  11. SJ says:

    I have a thought. I’m in a mid size church ~ 2500-3000. Volunteers are always needed to serve. I serve and could do more. The current pitch was for more than 50.

    At what point, if any, should those who serve get paid as in real employment. Great teaching, great people, great servitude in the people. One big happy ministry.

    I am torn on the subject, as the church growth (if that is your goal) requires many volunteers. When is a laborer worthy of their wages and how do you separate? Should only teaching pastors be paid? I don’t know.

  12. Steve Wright says:

    At what point, if any, should those who serve get paid as in real employment
    ———————————————————
    When it becomes real employment.

    Not being flippant but the question answers itself, right? Unless I am misunderstanding the question…are you asking if the church ought to cut $100 checks for everyone who serves there for a few hours a week?

    My hope is that any church that hires somebody does so as is absolutely necessary AND THEN makes the commitment to do whatever it takes, cut as much as possible before firing that person when the inevitable downturn in the economy comes around….

  13. Bob says:

    SJ

    Depends on what you think the purpose of the church is.

    I know a church which pays all the heads of departments a wage. Even the lighting guy gets paid. The head of the music department was recruited outside the church via a search because they wanted a trained professional. BTW she is in agreement with their doctrines.

    If your church’s tradition is not to pay then and you want to get paid, go where they pay.

    The church of the size you mention probably has many full time employees that you never hear about.

  14. “I have a thought. I’m in a mid size church ~ 2500-3000.” LOL 🙂

  15. The Dude says:

    My church is so tiny.. 70 on a good Sunday.Our pastor gets a part time salary.Twice our pastor took a voluntary pay cut too Zero so a few improvements to the building could be made.Like a few furnace so the children would have a warm place to have Sunday school.He’s not in the ministry for profit.

  16. The Dude says:

    Correction…..new not few.

  17. SJ says:

    At 14, I thought there would be a comment made about that. I was taking into account all the mega churches out there but realize out numbers are probly “large” 😉

    Good words Steve. It appears for our numbers we run lean as it is.

  18. covered says:

    Hey Dude, can you explain your comment “He’s not in the ministry for profit”. It sounds like you believe that if a pastor gets paid a salary then he’s in it for profit… I hope that this is not what you think it means to pay a pastor…

  19. SJ says:

    Hate Carroll, love Wilson. Giving all the glory in the OT win.
    Showed the prayer circle immediately after. Good stuff.

  20. SJ,…which God? Doesn’t he have to say Jesus Christ so that the unaware public would know which god he praises?

  21. SJ says:

    Oh boy MLD, yes on nat’l TV he said Jesus. It is widely known he is one of us, a Mormon.

  22. The Dude says:

    Covered
    Poor wording.. Bless you.
    Most men who enter the ministry are sincere men.I’ve been a Christian for over 30 yrs and I’ve dealt with some pretty sleazy men with the title paster.

  23. covered says:

    Dude, thank you for clarifying. I agree that those who pastor for filthy lucre are sleazy.

  24. Steve Wright says:

    Churches are subject to the employment laws, taxation laws etc with only a couple exceptions. If the church is regularly paying people, even a small weekly amount, they are part-time employees. They certainly would not be legally classified as independent contractors.

    So now workers comp insurance comes into play. Tax withholding issues and payroll processing. Minimum wage laws. Obamacare eligibility if enough part time hours make full time equivalents…

    If a church is just passing out $20 dollar bills to people who help a couple hours each Sunday they are asking for a world of trouble….

  25. covered says:

    Why isn’t just a case of God’s people using their gifts to edify the body? What am I missing?

  26. covered says:

    Why would a church pay the people to do what they are supposed to be doing?

  27. Ixtlan says:

    @26

    What are people supposed to be doing?

  28. Billy says:

    They are to be loving the Lord and loving one another.

    I John 4:11
    Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. If we are of God, and God so loves us, we must love one another.

    In telling us we ought to do this, John is clearly arguing there can be no substitute for loving one another. God, by His Spirit, dwells in all Christians (3:24b) and works in us to “will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

    If He is love (1 John 4:8), He is necessarily working in us to make us reflect His own loving character.

    If we really know God, we will really love one another.

    That we can help make God’s love reach its full effect by endeavoring to love one another is just another way the New Testament stresses our role in sanctification.

    Though we do not play a role in our regeneration, we are called to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our sanctification.

    Galatians 5:14
    For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Ephesians 5:28
    So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

  29. covered says:

    Hey Ixtlan, I may be missing something but it seems like the question was, should the people who attend their church be compensated for helping out. My question is that it seems to me that one of the reasons the Holy Spirit gives us each gifts is to edify the body. Again, I may have just come in late and have no clue what SJ, Steve W and Bob were talking about.

  30. Steve Wright says:

    Steve W was answering SJ…you get paid as “real employment” when it is real employment. @12

    A church of 2500-3000 certainly needs a staff…employees who are paid as employees. But as I said, hiring and firing for a church should be done very carefully on both ends, and anyone who thinks the church can just pay a few bucks here and there to people to show appreciation is likely breaking all sorts of laws.

    Not sure that my comments were confusing, but hopefully that clarifies them.

  31. Erunner says:

    Is it common after Sunday service the senior pastor takes maybe 15-20 folks to lunch at a nice restaurant and the church picks up the bill? How much discretion does the senior have on these type expenses??

  32. Ixtlan says:

    I have a friend who pastors a church where volunteerism is large. He doesn’t deal with the financials much, he doesn’t do much administrative work, he does some counseling, although he hands off a portion to his volunteer elders. He makes sure the assistant is doing what he is suppose to do. He teaches twice on Sunday, Wednesday night and leads a home study. All of the extra meetings such as men’s studies and banquets are handled by the volunteers, he shows up five minutes before it starts. He has a few evening meetings during the month and spends most of his days going to lunch with others. This army of volunteers frees him up to where he really doesn’t need to do much, and he makes much more in his salary than I ever have. So, I think if the church really had to pay for the work that was being done; and I think they should, how much “ministry” would actually happen? Probably would be scaled down to what is really needful rather than the accessories that go with belonging to a larger community.

  33. Steve Wright says:

    So, I think if the church really had to pay for the work that was being done; and I think they should, how much “ministry” would actually happen?
    ——————————————————————————
    One of the things that comes into this discussion I have found is the dividing of work into what is ministry and what is “business”….adds a layer of challenge to it all.

  34. Xenia says:

    What about someone who spends 20-30 hours a week working on ongoing projects? For example, in my last years at my old CC I probably worked 20- 30 hours a week producing the daily radio program and helping to direct the weekly TV show, plus managing the church’s web site and over seeing the Power Point. This work was offered to a male church member for a salary; he declined. I ended up with the work as a volunteer. How about that.

    On the other hand, I did a lot of work as a leader in the women’s ministry and would never expect to be paid for any of that work.

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