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  1. My comment from the other day on the Linkathon page. These Calvary Chapel guys are really entering a danger zone

    ***”That guy in the 1st video, what’s his name, the 3rd eagle? – he actually makes more sense than yesterday edition of Pastor’s Perspective.

    I swear if I didn’t know better, Don & Chuck are doing satire in the same way Stephanie does over at the SCCL. On yesterday’s program, these guys were absolutely giddy that war was breaking out between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

    By their words, and emotions they were rooting for escalation and trying to get their listeners to do the same.

    Yesterday’s show was non Christian at best and anti Christ at worse – I think for a while I will listen to the 3rd eagle instead.”***

    I think that CC is banking all of their credibility on the Middle East. They root for war to validate their talking points and their publishing empire. If peace breaks out, they will be suicidal.

    As I said, I have never seen a group of people so giddy over war, death, pestilence and children dying.

    Perhaps that is the sign of the end.

  2. Scott says:

    Talk about the end is near!

    Please head over to White House dot gov and sign the petition to nationalize Twinkies!

    This is a travesty that a Romney/Bain Capital style shut down and divide the financial spoils among the rich is transpiring in this country. Richard Trumka (Teamster Union Boss) was right to lay this at the feet of Mittens Romney. I wouldn’t be surprised if George Bush has a hand in this too.

    Twinkies, Ding Dongs, Suzie Q’s, Zingers & Ho-Ho’s are just too big to fail!!!

    I’m calling on President Obama to reinstate this great American Institution immediately, not too mention the 18,000 employees who lost their jobs. As far as know, the rich in this country have plenty of money to subsidize this undertaking.

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/nationalize-twinkie-industry/cJz0ngJR

  3. Another Voice says:

    MLD – Since you’re such a fan, why don’t you call the show and ask them if they are rooting for war or would rather see peace? You could do one of those “Hi longtime listener, first time caller here” intros.

    I have multiple CC facebook friends, including several pastors. I have not yet seen ONE person point to the Middle East with giddiness.

    I HAVE seen a few posts asking people to pray for peace over there…no mention of prophecy and war.

    Now, you can reply with the whole ‘these guys are the leaders of the movement’ and while I can’t argue they hold that position I can note that if my facebook feed is any indication, nobody is following their lead.

    It is one thing to watch with interest the affairs of the Middle East and it is another to be accused of rooting for the death of children – as you indict the whole movement.

  4. I bet a Twinkie MLD would never make it past their call screener

  5. AV,
    You are correct, because you know if confronted by a direct question they would choose the politically correct answer and say peace over war.

    That is why I said with their words AND emotions, they were rooting for war – perhaps they don’t realize the impact of what they are saying as Don, is saying that he is getting information right off the wire… just came in 20 min ago etc. Like he is Walter Winchell or someone.

    Now, perhaps they are just clowning around and trying to keep the ratings up… but I think if you listen to both Thursday’s show and Friday’s which is a rebroadcast of the Thursday night His Channel show, you can see the direction they are leaning.

    I think it unsettles their listeners who call in afterwards – “I am confused about the Rapture” – “I am confused about the Anti Christ” – “tell me more about the last days”

    No one calling saying “Tell me more about Jesus” or “could you explain to me the Trinity?”

  6. Scott says:

    Once again, Michael and MLD are rubbed raw by all of these things they read on Facebook and hear from various sources.

    I personally have yet to read or hear of one person that is giddy or rooting for an all out war in the middle east against Israel.

    Today (on the PP) was the first time I ever heard of such a thing…

    I guess I need to expand my base of “friends” and sources of information so I can “care” too.

  7. Another Voice says:

    What Scott said….

    MLD – My only point is that, believe it or not, some people have never even heard of Calvary Chapel. You indicted not just these two men but you threw all of CC in as well.

    You said, ‘CC is banking their credibility..’

    You said, ‘A ‘group of people’ giddy for war and the death of children.’

    Bigotry in all its forms is unbecoming of Christ. It’s a false witness against your brothers in Christ – some of whom you know personally and certainly know quite well are not rooting for war and the death of children – despite what you interpret the news updates from two men on the radio to sound like.

  8. Em says:

    there’s a lot of wisdom in Michael’s assessment IMHO … back in the early days of TV as my family watched mystery programs together one family member would start guessing who dunnit until she had pretty much indicted the whole cast by the time the show was over and then she’d say, “see i told you that was who did it!” … does God need play by play announcers (or whatever they’re called)?
    i *think* we can see a lot of prophetic events unfolding, but don’t we simply need to be watching and praying for all the souls in danger? – so many dangers and so many distractions now; our own shouldn’t be providing the hysteria

  9. Scott,
    I didn’t say I picked anything up from FB on this point. Just going off the radio program.

  10. Let me see if I can put this is a better “Perspective.”

    Whenever Israel and war comes up, the phrasing I hear on the radio is “isn’t it great to be living in a time that we can see the Bible happening right before our eyes?”

    My question is, why do they never make that comment on a regular, ordinary day? Is it because they don’t think that the Bible is happening before our very eyes every time that the word of God is properly preached and when the sacraments are properly administered and Christ has claimed people to be his own? Is the Bible not happening before our very eyes, when sin is confessed and forgiven?

    Why is the Bible only happening before our eyes when someone lobs a missile into Israel?

  11. Em says:

    sometime in the early 1970s i heard a good and reliable (IMHO) Bible teacher say that little Israel would some day face attack from hostile forces that ran from Russia all the way south into the Sudan … seemed strange and unlikely …
    i was away from reality on a sailboat up in the Canadian Gulf Islands when i heard on our radio that Bush was going after Iraq with “shock and awe” … without the talking heads to guide me, i thought he’d gone mad – i couldn’t have told you exactly where Iraq was or even Saudi Arabia, they weren’t relevant to me (they are now) …

    thought i’d reminisce – since i have nothing better to do, but use up Michael’s blog space this morning as i wait for another realtor and his tour (entourage?)

  12. steve voigt says:

    I’ve been with CC’s for many years (35) and have become weary of the rapture is right at hand.. I do look to each day as gift from God to use to bring Him glory. I look for opptunities to share the gosple,do a good job at work and just be a regular guy. Since it wasn’t done in 81 I decided to keep myself besides occpuied.Don will do or say whatever he is told. he knows where he gets his bread buttered.Lets’s face it there are not many job’s in the want add’s for overeducated,overpaid and underworked apologist.Another little secret I’ll reveal Don has no faster or more updated news than the rest of us

  13. Michael says:

    I find it beyond strange that people would object to me pointing out that a pastor of thousands declared the end of the nation. I’ll irritate you some more and posit that it’s irresponsible and immature for him to have done so and his peers should be the one calling him out.
    Back to work…

  14. Em says:

    MLD “isn’t it great to living in a time when … ” amen to your observation – are they nuts?- to coin a phrase – like it was great to be living in Europe during the plague?
    whether the Church is removed (my latest theory is that we’ll die out and then the end comes – lol ) or stays, the end times and these times are very sobering times for the common man, who has no control over them

  15. Em says:

    #13 – amen again – to every word

  16. The funny thing is, and AV knows this, is that I think Don Stewart is the brightest bulb in CC… when he teaches on history, apologetics, knowing the original languages etc.

    But when he get’s on the last days stuff, it’s like he has a Missler 8 track in his head. 🙂

  17. Ixtlan says:

    Stewart is well educated. What I have found about education, is that the further you go into your studies, the more specialized and concentrated your education becomes. And when one strays outside of their field[s] of study, they usually have little more knowledge about a given subject than any one else.

  18. Another Voice says:

    Well, in my opinion Twitter itself is immature for a pastor and so anything uttered thereby is simply fruit of the immature tree.

    But that opinion probably steps on broader toes..

  19. Em says:

    at the risk of being a thread interrupter:

    CNN is spotlighting some of our own … they are ours IMO anyway

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/17/us/andy-stanley/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

  20. London says:

    Twitter is immature for a pastor??!

    Hahahaha

  21. Chile says:

    CC Giddiness sightings:
    Colorado
    Virginia
    Florida
    New Mexico
    California

    But that was only a quick check, certainly not exhaustive.

    I’m not challenging Scott’s or AV’s info, but I do think there is a pervasive CC culture that exists that for some odd reason is not part of their circles, so they indicate.

    Remember the hysteria about Russia’s role in Revelations during the Cold War in the 1970’s & 80’s? Those of us who lived that are not interested in repeating it, or content to sit idly by while others whip up a new crowd of believers. We saw the damage left in its wake and feel responsible to protect the unsuspecting.

  22. Another Voice says:

    London, to be clear, I don’t mean following people on Twitter.

    I mean the need for pastors to say ‘Look at me, I have something to say’ that yet is not important enough to need more than 140 characters AND is something they can’t otherwise A) include in a message B) post on their blog or C) post on facebook

    It’s my opinion. Nothing more or less.

  23. covered says:

    I totally agree with Michael and MLD. It is very irresponsible to point to “the end” every time there’s a war or rumor of war in Israel. It erases the good that this tribe has done over the years. I’m saddened that we all know some very smart and godly men who will defend this behavior to the end and make excuses for it. I also hope that when Chuck is in heaven, this sort of thing will no be tolerated by this tribe.

  24. Scott says:

    Don’t know what to say, I personally just don’t follow or really care about what Chuck Smith, Don Stewart, Glen Beck or even Rachel Maddow think about these things. 🙂

    I deactivated my Facebook acct awhile back. Never used Twitter either. I guess I’m really out of the loop.

  25. London says:

    AV. That is hilarious in its irony.
    Just because someone is not verbose, does not make them immature or egotistical.

  26. Scott says:

    However, ask me about federal regulations affecting the trucking industry and I can give you an earful 😉

  27. erunner says:

    Back in the late 70’s everything was prophecy it seemed. I was bringing people to see screenings of A Thief In The Night because the world just couldn’t get any worse than it was. (Imagine that.) Through the years people have looked for the signs of the end. Israel was a huge focal point.

    Fast forward to today. For whatever reason President Obama has been demonized by many and his re-election has pushed some over the edge to where they’re giving up on our nation. At the same time we now find Israel facing who knows what in the coming days and months.

    Then you look at the turmoil taking place all over the world and I have to wonder how much worse can it get. For “some” within CC this has to be God’s end times scenario playing out.

    For those who have come up through the pre-trib teachings of their church this is what they’ve absorbed and believed. So some amount of fear sets in when some point out the silence of scripture concerning the USA. Are we facing a catastrophic end?

    I have seen the mockery of the pre trib position often. (Think Left Behind.)

    At the same time I realize there are solid and thoughtful pastors within CC who believe in a pre trib rapture. Having spent over 30 years within CC in the past I know how odd things can get. I sat through a teaching by an associate pastor laying out the case Prince Charles very well could be the anti-christ.

    I would love to see a thread set up to let men who are post trib thoughtfully lay out their thoughts in a way that we could see the more balanced approach to this position without it turning into an online brawl! 🙂

    Of all people we can agree to disagree in a mature manner. Maybe then the same could be done for other positions. The fractures in the church are difficult to observe.

    Sometimes we all forget about those who are fighting daily simply to survive. They’re unsure of their tomorrows let alone the timing of the end of days. We need to pray for them worldwide and this includes the persecuted church. Jusy my thoughts….

  28. Scott says:

    MLD, regarding your #9, I wrote, …”by all of these things they read on Facebook and hear from various sources.”

    Various sources include your daily ingestion of “Pastor’s Perspective”. 🙂

    Now I gotta run. Heading down to Cerritos, CA

  29. Another Voice says:

    Just because someone is not verbose, does not make them immature or egotistical.
    ————————————-
    Agreed London. And that is not entirely what I said was it?

    I have a hard time understanding the NEED for a pastor to tweet something.

    I do not have a hard time understanding that celebrity pastors, or those with something to promote, would use twitter to keep their name and ministry in front of people regularly.

  30. Another Voice says:

    Chile, may I suggest you do what MLD and Michael did. Name the pastor specifically that you are hearing is giddy for war and the death of children (which is MLD’s claim you recall and to which you reply with your ‘giddy’ comment)

  31. London says:

    Maybe they just like twitter.
    People could say the same thing about FB or blogging.
    It’s about taste and style, not maturity

    How silly.

  32. Chile says:

    AV, I’ve named some of the bigger players on here before, but my quick check was of people in CC congregations who are parroting what they either hear in church or on CC radio. Their names don’t need to be called out.

    The ones I’d like to name are assistant pastors and their wives who do a lot of the repeating of what they learn from their pastors. But it’s all the specific assistants I’m thinking of know to do – parrot.

  33. Another Voice says:

    The atheist Christopher Hitchens was never critical of Christians sharing their faith. Being a smart man he realized that since they truly believe in a hell and that Jesus is the only way to avoid hell, they have a duty to share their faith. In fact, his criticism was for those who profess a Christian faith and seem to have no seriousness in evangelism.

    I would like to see the Body of Christ within our ranks act more like this atheist. That even when we disagree in our theology, we seek an understanding of motive for those with a different view. Yes, we recognize there are some with mixed or even flat out wrong motives – and certainly Hitchens would not have complimented the eager evangelist who disturbs the dinner crowd at the local restaurant with his message to repent before the check comes.

    Calvary Chapel people, for better or worse, are very active in evangelism. They pray and witness to their lost friends and neighbors. They also believe in an eschatology where the Middle East is seen as a sign of the Lord’s near return. And they believe when the Lord returns that those ‘left behind’ will be either fooled and damned or at best have to suffer martyrdom to be saved.

    And they don’t want their loved ones to experience either. Why can’t that be the motive. Love for the lost?

    Yes, some of you who know the Lord (often through the ministry of a CC) feel like you were manipulated for years. And you probably were. I was too. But we grow and mature in the Lord (even if we keep our eschatology) and understand as a believer there is far more to the Christian life than watching the Middle East news.

    But the lost need Jesus. And a portion of the lost, when the world does seem to be coming apart, are asking questions that only Christians can answer (whatever your eschatology). Why do you think churches get packed after an event like 9/11?

    I disagree with infant baptism, with evangelical and Baptist altar calls, and a few other things that can also be manipulative. But I won’t presume the worst of my fellows in the Body of Christ that are motivated with seeing the lost get saved. I’ll express my disagreements, and do so strongly on occasion, and express WHY I think there is a problem in those views.

    But I won’t accuse the leadership and those who follow them of sinister motives just because of a theology. Once they cross the line and start promoting their books and such as the ‘answer’ then sure, all bets are off.

    But not before.

  34. Chile says:

    AV, we know people are not going to say they are giddy for death and war. However the excitement some have over their view that these are signs of Jesus return is evident. Unfortunately, it comes across as a bit selfish and insensitive.

    The people I know who have talked about this over the years have been passionate, pushy, lacking in love, and a bit short on their handling of Scriptures. IMHO.

  35. Another Voice says:

    The Apostle John found the word of God sweet to his mouth but bitter to his stomach. The Lord’s return is sweet to proclaim. Maranatha.

    Except the Lord’s return (whatever your eschatology) is associated with the judgement and damnation of souls to hell. That is bitter to stomach.

    Maybe out of love if nothing else, one gives the benefit of the doubt that any excitement is out of the hope of the Lord’s soon return and not the slaughter and death of children.

    Is that too much to ask?

  36. I think the point is, that they need to realize the collateral damage tthat come along with this. If you teach for 40 yrs that the return of Jesus is preceded by nations attacking Israel, and then every time there is a skirmish, you say “this could be the event that leads to the Lord’s return” – what do you expect the listeners reaction to be?

    I could be wrong, because I was driving in freeway traffic at the time, but I do not think that I heard them say – “but we hope this is not the time and we hope for a peaceful resolution.”

  37. Chile says:

    Here’s a personal example of one small instance of how this subject can carry baggage:

    Our CC had a day of prayer at the church. I showed up before work and was stopped by the assistant Pastor’s wife who had become so worked up by the Pastor’s comments about Israel and the end times that she “preached” at me, yelling, crying, and predicting a cataclysmic end that was so clear to her that there was no point in doing some things (can’t remember if she referred to raising kids, planning for the future, or what?) She took all the time I had so I left without praying.

    That was not the only time such exchanges had happened. They would come as a result of comments made by the pastor.

  38. Another Voice says:

    MLD…so you expect pastors to say “we hope the Lord is not coming back yet” – Really?

    Did they say ‘pray for the people in Israel’? I know I have heard them say this many, many times.

    I think there is a lot of collateral damage in infant baptism too – we always see collateral damage in views we don’t hold.

    Of course, your collateral damage seen is that people might think the Lord is coming back before the time.

    My collateral damage seen is that people be deceived because of their baptism as to their salvation and end up in hell.

  39. You missed the point of my “collateral damage” – rooting for the war to escalate.

  40. “so you expect pastors to say “we hope the Lord is not coming back yet” – Really?”

    No, just don’t tie his return to a singular event of mass destruction. 🙂

  41. Once Upon a Time says:

    test

  42. Once Upon a Time says:

    Moderator: a longer post made earlier may be in moderation. thank you.

  43. Once Upon a Time,
    You passed the test

  44. n o m a n s says:

    Once, I can’t find anything.

  45. Once Upon a Time says:

    Mr. Disciple – I must not have passed some providential test. The entry I wrote for which I went through the hoops to post on this blog became lost in cyberspace. Perhaps for the best. So I will bid you all adieu and return to observing rather than participating.

  46. Once,
    We are all friends here – you can call me MLD.

    Now you have me curious as to what you wrote. We need your participation.

  47. Em says:

    Once, i’ve had a couple disappearing posts today and i think there’s something going on in cyberspace or google or my fibre optic service … dunno … i’d suggest that you pray about reposting what came to your mind to share … very few God honoring thoughts are better not shared – IMHO

  48. Em says:

    @ #21 chile said, “Remember the hysteria about Russia’s role in Revelations during the Cold War in the 1970′s & 80′s? ”
    that’s had me thinking some more on the times that set this up – both our government and our power brokers were courting the Christian (Evangelicals?) pastors after WW2 using them to help fight the “threat of a Communist takeover” – of course, our pastors felt honored and important – think Prayer Breakfast (invitation only) – our country had just fought off the armies of the Axis’ attempt at world domination and patriotism was part of life, part of the war effort
    but somewhere these good pastors’ mindsets swapped ends and, instead of supporting the United States as the land of the free, they began to preach that we were God’s country … maybe we were – dunno – at any rate, all of this Revelation hysteria (kick started by an out of line layman with some sort of gift for writing) was fomented in pulpits of men caught up in the excitement of being in the know on unfolding world events … at least that’s what it looked like from out here in the pews – dunno

  49. I just noticed that the His Channel show is called World News Briefing. Does anyone have any reference if I can find a video about what is happening in Peru?

    Or is the “world” only Israel?

  50. Alex says:

    “We are all friends here – you can call me MLD.”

    Not all of us.

  51. Alex says:

    Dunno on Eschatology. I’m still most convinced by the Partial Preterist position and I don’t know if the End Times Rapture crowd is right or wrong.

    I will say, though, my mind will easily be changed if very specific things are fulfilled in the manner in which they appear to read (simply) from Scripture.

    If all the sudden a bunch of people vanish into thin air, if all the sudden a human leader ascends to power and starts putting microchips in hands and foreheads to buy and sell, etc., then I think my mind will be changed for me.

    I do think some sort of war between Israel and Iran (that’s really the issue, Hamas and the Palestinians are a proxy for Iran)…is probable.

    I still think we eventually see a World Central Bank and new World Currency regime to replace the US Dollar as the current WRC. We’re taking gigantic steps toward that likely outcome and the more I talk to FOREX guys and others who are in tune with Macroeconomics, Global Finance etc…and the more we see the Eurozone problems, Japan’s debt problems and the US’s now major problems…the intensity of the Currency Wars etc…the tensions economically between the US and China over “currency manipulation” and trade imbalance etc…the more likely the current System blowing up becomes.

    I wouldn’t listen to Mike McIntosh or any Calvary Chapel guy. They aren’t “special” and they aren’t specially anointed. That’s a myth.

  52. #52 – “I do think some sort of war between Israel and Iran (that’s really the issue, Hamas and the Palestinians are a proxy for Iran)…is probable”

    FWIW – i think “some sort of war” is what’s going on right now … pray that the pot doesn’t boil over – seriously, pray

  53. Poor Jesus can’t come back until Iran and Israel decide to duke it out… or is it nuke it out?

    Absolutely insane

  54. Only in the Left Behind books do we hear of World Banks and World Currencies.

    Now they may become a reality but there is no biblical connection.

  55. erunner says:

    I can’t help but feel sadness for the civilians killed in th Gaza Strip. I’ve heard that Hamas intentionally sets up shop near civilians and on the other side I hear that it’s the massive amount of missles Israel launches. It seems at times this all becomes talking points without the realization of the terrible things that are happening. Little children are not collateral damage.

  56. brian says:

    The most important aspect of eschatology is a holy and sacred purpose, it is to generate income and gain more power. People who know me here know I count these two goals as sacred in the American Religion. They have little to do with the faith Jesus founded but he is irrelevant, and that is a different post. Many fortunes have been gained by pathetic writing and sham marketing for books and videos by “ministries” shilling their wears. I would never stop them from doing this because I believe in religious freedom, unlike most of end time proponents. I take a buyer be wear approach to such nonsense, and it is nonsense, on its face.

    An aside and I understand this is the most irrelevant of all, I personally know well over 50 peoples lives that were trashed by the end time clap trap by zealots etc. They have left the faith and are broken hearted. Granted each of them had it coming as we all do, but it makes me sad. If that does not confirm my reprobation I do not know what does. From the cheap seats this is a very strange religion it really is.

  57. brian says:

    ” Little children are not collateral damage”

    Amen

  58. Nonnie says:

    “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”. Golda Meir

  59. Alex says:

    It’s hard to say this has zero significance, especially in light of the fact the IMF has already articulated this outcome in a report published in April 2010 and Russia and China are calling for the same thing and the economic crises hasn’t been fixed, just delayed and will be back with more ferocity eventually as you can’t print your way out of debt in the US w/o making things difficult on the rest of the World:

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/24/vatican-calls-for-central-world-bank/

  60. Em says:

    #60 – heard that item on NPR … since the golden rule says that he who has the gold rules, we’d at least be able to identify who’s pulling the strings (humanly speaking), but … one doesn’t have to be able to interpret who is the whore or who is the beast etc. to see the how the scenario of history is to play out – it’s flow from the Church’s beginning that God has so graciously given us
    there is much understanding to be gained with just a familiarity of the text of the Apostle John’s book, Revelation IMHO Revelation 20:7-9

    that’s all i need to know for certain – war does have an end – a very decisive one

    probably my parting shot for today 🙄

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