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  1. AA says:

    Good morning all this Saturday. ☀️

  2. Excellent article about where I would best be spending my time and energy.
    Join me if you dare…

    http://johnpavlovitz.com/2015/10/10/jesus-don-quixote-and-the-christian-culture-war-that-isnt/

  3. Em says:

    good words from ‘stuff that needs to be said,’ G

    even if there is a war going on (i believe that there is) and we do have an adversary, but we’re no match for him… might be a good ponder for the day…

  4. Erunner says:

    Less than a week ago we had two days in the low 70’s with a bit of rain. Yesterday was over 100 and we’re flirting with those temperatures again. I’m sick of it!!

  5. Em says:

    hmmm, the first three comments on this thread: “good,” “excellent,” “good”

    now i’m thinking… what am i sick of? … horse manure, cat boxes and weeds are on my list… and how cum poor So. Carolina (or is it North?) is getting ALL the rain?

    but i was reading this a.m. in Acts and Peter is telling his fellow Jews that they’ve just killed the Son of God and their response is, “brothers what shall we do [now]?” … so there is hope while there is breath, eh?

  6. Em says:

    i am grateful, though… my daughter arrived home safe, bringing a big basket of California fruits from my cousin’s yard… forget the garlic and leeks of Egypt, give this pilgrim tree ripened oranges, limes, avocados and pomegranates

  7. I took the Steve Wright challenge and read the Merrill Unger paper … twice.
    Steve is correct that Unger does a scholarly job of presenting dispensational theology.

    So if you want to know what dispensationalists believe, I would say it is described here.
    1.) that Jews and the Church are 2 completely different entities and not to be confused. The Church is made prepared for the heavenlies and the Jews are earthbound people.
    2.) That the Church has a purpose and when God feels that purpose has been met, he will remove the Church to it’s rightful place in the heavenlies and bring back Israel to the land as that is their inheritance … no heaven for them.
    3.) All of the Temple stuff will be re-instituted as the Levitical system is still in place and valid and binding for the Jews. He makes it clear that the Levitical system was only fulfilled and abolished for those Jews who became Christians – in fact he states that it is a false teaching claim that Jesus on the cross ended the Levitical system;

    He raises an objection to Carl Friedrich Keil;
    “One of the main objections to the premillennial and literal expositions of the prophetical
    announcements of the restoration of Israel is thus advanced by Keil: “…The New Testament says nothing whatever concerning the rebuilding of the Jerusalem temple and a restoration of the Levitical worship, but it teaches in the most decided manner that, with the completion of the reconciliation of men with God through the sacrifice of Christ upon Golgotha, the Levitical law was fulfilled and abolished (Heb 7–9 )…”

    What, he takes exception to the Levitical law being fulfilled and abolished on the cross?

    If you read this 21 page report, when you get to page 5 – this is his thesis – so as you move through the next 16 pages, you must read them through the lens of page 5.

    Merrill Unger has a full blown Temple system going on with blood sacrifices and altar, priest etc – for the exact same purpose as given to Moses. This my friends is no memorial event.

    It is almost as if the after rapture time period is like a Jewish purgatory – give this sacrificial system one more try and see if it works this time and – the dispensationalism sounds a lot like Mormon theology with their 3 heavens – yes you get heaven but which level? The heavenly people (the Church) and the mud people (Israel)

    http://arielcanada.com/en/pdf/DTS/MerrillFUngerEzekielsVisionofIsraelsRestorationPart1.pdf

  8. Em says:

    well, i am not theologically literate enough to debate MLD or Pastor Wright…
    BUT … 🙂

    1-is there a specific, intense tribulation period yet ahead? i think there is… how many years? i like 3 1/2 – seems to be the time described in Rev. when the bowls of wrath are poured out … dunno, tho, do i? (i think the wedding supper is going on during this short period – that rapture thing)
    2-is there 1,000 years of Christ’s reign on earth, after which time God puts all the clay back in the pot and creates a new heavens and a new earth? i am convinced that this is fact…
    3-tried to justify the thousand years as a symbolic, but i can’t… so? that doesn’t make mine the final word
    4- after the 1,000 years comes the White Throne Judgement – seems logical
    5-as to the Jews being the only race on earth for those thousand years? possible, i guess 6-BUT where do the Christians go during this time? well, it’s pretty clear that all the Saints come along behind Christ when He returns, so does He send us off somewhere after His return? that seems awkward, doesn’t seem too logical, but … dunno
    7-a reinstitution of the Temple rituals? memorial rituals? possible, i guess … but in the peaceful kingdom? – dunno – but God does and praise Him, things WILL be done according to His will on earth as in heaven in that day

    now i haven’t tried to build a case or answer the any of the esteemed theologians’ theories… just pondering some of the most important things of the Universe (gasp! forgive my presumption) and what seems logical to me from what i’ve heard said over the years… and reading the Book a bit

    BTW – if these times we’re in aren’t the end of the end times, they’re are sure a good rehearsal for same

  9. Scott says:

    Thanks for your report, MLD. Of course, Steve will be along soon enough to refute your spin on the paper. 😉 However, I have no doubt that your interpretation on Unger’s view is correct.

    I still don’t believe in a future, rebuilt temple with a reconstituted Levitical priesthood offering blood sacrifices in the presence of Jesus, period.

    I give you an A 😉

  10. Steve Wright says:

    Unger specifically says the sacrifices are memorial. MLD is wrong. Some would say he bears a false witness. If that is the refuting of spin then so be it.

    Or….it is MLD’s typical insistence of demanding the theological conclusions line up with what he wants to present, rather than what the proponents of the doctrine actually proclaim….and being called on it.

    I don’t care enough to refute the other misrepresentations in his post #7.

  11. Steve Wright says:

    However, I have no doubt that your interpretation on Unger’s view is correct.
    ————————————
    Scott’s comment here to MLD, after telling me last week he did not care to read what was actually taught, is the reason I bother to reply to the mischaracterization in the first place.

    People will believe MLD because he is telling them what they want to hear.

    Again…so be it.

  12. Em,
    1.) There will be intensity at the end. The only reason anyone thinks 3 1/2 or 7 yrs is because the dispensationalists put an unwarranted 2,000 yrs between weeks 69 and 70. All made up.
    2.) No, Jesus even said that his kingdom is not of theis world. Also, Peter in Acts 2 states that Jesus is currently sitting on David’s throne. No need to pull one out of temple storage.
    3.) “thousand years as a symbolic” – it’s not symbolic – it is realized.
    4..) Yes judgment after the millenium – which is the church age. Read Matt 25:31-46. Jesus himself tells us exactly what is to happen at the end and in what order.
    5.) Don’t the Christians come back to earth to rule with Jesus? Heavenly people and mud people walking together.
    6.) I think the same as 5
    7.) Unger calls for full scale Levitical sacrificial system – as I said just like Moses did.

  13. Steve, I just quoted the guy – anyone can go in and read page 5. After he presents what he considers all the wrong positions, he lays out his..
    As I said – since he set forward what was wrong and then right – I used that as my Unger lens.

    Especially about him denying that Jesus on the cross ended the Levitical sacrificial system.

  14. Em says:

    problem i have with MLD’s presentation is that it requires more faith than logic… i’ll see what tomorrow brings… whether it seems worth the time to really dig into this stuff… the teachers i respect have already done so and i just glean what rings true for me as none of it is anything more than speculation until fulfilled … IMHO … doesn’t mean that we should not give it some thought … But it will all become clear when fulfilled – will we argue interpretations then? probably not… are these foolish and unlearned questions? maybe not for some, but they are that for this foolish and unlearned watcher, i guess – dunno…

  15. Scott says:

    Steve, you are a petulant and testy individual when it comes to your positions I see.

    I just finished reading the Unger piece. I still agree with MLD’s summary, especially what he sets forth in #12.

    Peace?

  16. em, all I am doing is taking up Steve’s challenge. I am agreeing that what Unger says is what dispensationalists believe.

    I just don’t think the things I mentioned above in #7 are biblical – they may be dispensationalist but not biblical.

    Steve will walk away from some of the Unger comments before I walk towards them.

  17. Jesus speaks of end times things basically in 2 places – Matt 24 & 25.
    24 speaks mostly to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD
    25 speaks mostly to the 2nd coming. Jesus does not speak at all about any of the dispie end times.

    As to the 1,000 yr earthly reign, I think Paul missed a great opportunity to expound on this in ch 9-11 of Romans that he devoted to the Jews. This would have been a great time to tell them about their future in a millennial kingdom. But what did we get??? Crickets.

  18. Surfer51 says:

    Just a couple of minor end times things basically…

    Since the radioactivity has come to the west coast of America we can expect to see thyroid cancer and other types to start showing up in the surfing populations.

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2015/10/since-radioactivity-has-come-to-west.html

    Researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health have published a study (abstract) noting that pregnant women are more likely to give birth prematurely if they live close to fracking sites.

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2015/10/there-are-higher-rates-of-premature.html

  19. Surfer51 says:

    On a lighter note:

    Robert Tilton the Television evengelist scammer is turned into a bass and drum track by the artist POGO.

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2015/10/robert-tilton-television-evengelist.html

  20. Em says:

    “….devoted to the Jews. This would have been a great time to tell them about their future in a millennial kingdom. ” … for the record and FWIW, i am not convinced that the millennial kingdom IS a Jewish kingdom and i’m sure not convinced that all the Christians (those who accept Christ post cross and pre 2nd coming) are going to be off (or up) somewhere doing their own thing… well, going to catechism classes maybe (maybe MLD will be instructing) 🙂

  21. JTK says:

    ” it is a false teaching claim that Jesus on the cross ended the Levitical system;”

    I want to hear someone say this to Jesus’ face.
    Or hear them pray that.

    And they can grab Les Feldick, the old guy on cable tv, who says all of Jesus’ words in the Gospels are not for us goyim.

    Let’s have a big prayer meeting–I want to hear how they say this material to Jesus.

    Or maybe I don’t….

  22. JTK says:

    I’m going through everything Paul said to Timothy.

    And then I had the questionable idea to write down how many of his statements required another Christian (or Paul himself) to accomplish what Paul asked or said of Timothy.

    I’m not very far into it.
    And 16/18 required other Christians in some way or another.

    Maybe it really isn’t just “me and Jesus and that’s all that matters”….

    Thoughts?
    Accusations?

  23. Em says:

    #18- forget the surfers, don’t eat the crabs … who would have thought that the day would come when we’d be able to pollute the vast oceans?

    ” ROLL on, thou deep and dark blue Ocean, roll!
    Ten thousand fleets sweep over thee in vain;
    Man marks the earth with ruin; his control
    Stops with the shore;”

  24. Em says:

    #21 – well everything in the Bible is for all of us in some sense, but Jesus’ time on earth was spent instructing the Jew was it not?

  25. Em says:

    Maybe it really isn’t just “me and Jesus and that’s all that matters”…. good ponder … am i the sum and substance of all that is or just a player, a part of it?

  26. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Em,

    Jesus instructed, healed, and/or spoke with was a Jew, but He always spoke of repentance and getting beneath the superficiality of the law and went much deeper to the heart of the issue. For those who did hear, they were blessed. Remember, not everyone who heard Him was a Jew.

  27. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Whoops, sorry: Better stated: Jews were not the only people whom Jesus, ministered to, prayed over, healed, or even taken to task. On the day of Pentecost, Jews were not the only ones filled with and empowered by the Holy Spirit either.

    In the last chapter of Revelation, it speaks of how God will create a New Jerusalem and in the midst of this will be the Lord on High, as there will be no temple. Yet, scripture does tell us that one final time when the AntiChrist lifts himself us to have all to worship him, that we are to take heed for the desolation of abomination has occurred and soon, after this, on a level that the world has never experienced before, there will be a great earthquake, and soon there He will come to take up those asleep in the grave, then those who are alive on earth, then there will be a space of time, then the wrath, whereas many horrendous things will take place.

    As I understand it, those who are left behind will be part of the 1000 years millennium, along with those who were slain during this time for their faith and refusal for taking the mark. It really doesn’t matter who you are if you are numbered among these. Jews, gentiles, or something else—-those who cry out and die for their faith in Him will be there during this period of time. Those taken up will stand among those gone before them as they have been waiting and watching God bring things about just as it is written, but now with much better understanding regarding sooooooo many things.

  28. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Side note:

    Was Pre, but for last 10 years, now lean towards Mid. As for Amil, have spent a lot of time going over the positions and this was just doesn’t ever pan out or match up. Nevertheless, may we each be ready and today is the day to begin so that when that time comes, we will have been made ready by that which we have been tested, strengthen, and equipped to overcome.

  29. “Maybe it really isn’t just “me and Jesus and that’s all that matters”….”

    JTK – it never is. The books of the Bible are written to the Church.
    Lone Ranger Christians are out of the will of God. Don’t ever let anyone tell you they were saved… just them and their Bible. (Acts 8)

  30. JTK says:

    “It never is”
    -MLD

    That seems pretty revolutionary from where I sit, what I hear. Perhaps unamerican.

    That we NEED the church, each other.
    Even within the church, church members, how many really believe they NEED each other?

    I’m going to begin asking more Christians if there is someone on earth “WHO do you really trust?”

    It begins with Jesus, but it can’t end there.

  31. JTK, I find evangelicals troubled over these issues because they have a skimpy at best and non existent at worst theology on the Church, it’s origins and purpose.

    This may help … or not 🙂

    http://issuesetc.org/2013/08/09/3-christianity-101-the-church-pr-steven-parks-8913/

  32. Scott, I agree with your assessment at #6 on the other thread. I taught in my class a couple of months ago that Jesus is a game changer. Whatever you thought was going to happen, should happen, was promised to happen is now all topsey turvey and not what you think.

    Teaching today out of Matt 12 – who is the promised servant of God? The OT claimed it to be the nation Israel – Jacob as it was stated in the LXX.

    But no, Matthew says that it is Jesus – Jesus, the fulfillment. Israel has no standing, they are replaced by Jesus. Around and around it goes – those who are Israel centric ‘christians’ just won’t let it go.

  33. Jean says:

    MLD, #32,

    “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

  34. Uriah, Your #7 & 9 come straight out of Hal Lindsey, the Left Behind books and the white spaces in the Bible.
    Where do you get how the temple will be used after it is done with the sacrifices?

  35. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Speculation seated upon what was stated drawing upon scripture, not left behind, Luther, nor as a result of being so foolish to ever believe that our faith e ever lied in the balance of rejecting those whom scripture warns us to do otherwise.

  36. We had our annual (3rd) Blessing of the Animals today. Very good … 1 cat and 20 plus dogs.

  37. Jean says:

    “nor as a result of being so foolish to ever believe that our faith e ever lied in the balance of rejecting those whom scripture warns us to do otherwise.”

    Who rejected who?

  38. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Some say that those who support Israel are not Christians yet scripture tells us that we are to support them while sharing the gospel with them. Scripture also tells us that one day God will remove that blindness that he has to come over them, when the time of the gentile believer has been fulfilled. In this they will be grafted back in there for it we should not boast in that great that we have received or as we too could be plucked out to say to anyone nothing you will not come to know the Messiah is directly opposed to what all of Scripture has told us from the beginning and until the end.

  39. Israel as a political entity can be supported by any group who wants to support them. The true recent history is that if you are Amil in your theology that you are anti Semitic.

    But that isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about those who deny that the promises to Israel were fulfilled in Jesus (the Bible is not about Israel, but about the redeemer we see in Gen 3) – just as I pointed out in Matt 12 and Jean pointed out – I think Matt 2 or 3.

  40. Scott says:

    MLD, your man Chase Utley was suspended for that cheap shot he took on Tejada last night. How do you feel about that as a die hard Dodger fan?

  41. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    A combination of politics and sissie players. 🙂

  42. Jean says:

    MLD,

    I was reading through Paul’s letter to the Philippians today and came across this:

    “For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh” (3:3 ESV)

    Wasn’t it Jesus himself who said the day was coming when God would not be worshipped (by Jews and Samarians alike) in the city of Jerusalem or Samaria, but “in Spirit and truth”?

    Didn’t that day arrive (Pentecost perhaps)? I don’t remember Him teaching us that “Spirit and truth” worship was temporary.

  43. Scott says:

    THANK YOU, METS! 😉

  44. Scott says:

    Poor, MLD. He was SO hopeful too 😉

  45. Erunner says:

    I’ve only been a Dodgers fan for 50 years! MLD has got me by a few years. We had our chances and I tip my hat to the Mets. Now I’m all in with the Cubs.

  46. Well I was hopeful, but I did say after playoff failures the past 2 yrs, anything less than getting in the World Series would be a total failure year … and so it is.

    However, we did finish ahead of the Giants. 🙂

  47. Now that did bring me back to this thread where I had missed Jean’s comment at 43.

    Yes that is right. The whole Bible is filled with that kind of talk and says nothing that the other guys say it says.

    Here is how the typical rapture theology is developed.
    http://educatingourworld.com/index.php/blog/entry/video-for-tuesday-october-13th-2015

  48. Scott says:

    That’s true MLD, Dodgers did finish ahead of the Giants who were missing like 10 of their top players on and off all year. Besides, Giants only win the WS in even numbered years 😉

    I’m rooting for Cubs now too.

  49. Steve Wright says:

    True Scott…and just two more and San Francisco will have as many World Series titles as Los Angeles…..(I don’t count the John McGraw New York era…I understand if you need to) 🙂

    Go Cubs! (Apologies to Phil)

  50. Scott says:

    Repeat after me…

    3 out of the last 6 years 😉

  51. Steve Wright says:

    Scott, 3 out of 6 would be significant…if we were about 12. Or had amnesia….

    As it is…I’m guessing MLD and Erunner, like yours truly, remember the past as well as you remember the last six years…there just is more past to remember. 🙂

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