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65 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    According to the first speaker anyone who is on the left can’t be a” bible believing” Christian.
    It’s always good to find out who is on the enemies list of the prophecy wonks.

  2. Em says:

    #1 – well, just because that’s what the guy thinks doesn’t make it so πŸ™‚ i think i’m on a free speech kick this weekend…

  3. Michael says:

    Em,

    That’s a good kick to be on.
    I hate what this guy is saying about people, but I’m glad he can say it.

  4. Xenia says:

    I’ll watch the Orthodox videos later today. Fr. John Behr is the author of several books we use in my school. Thanks for the links!

  5. Em says:

    and we thank God that He has given you this platform to respond, Michael

    does God ever leave the Church without a voice? thinking… thinking….

  6. Michael says:

    Thank you, Em.
    It used to make me angry, but it just makes me sad these days to hear such.

    Xenia,

    I haven’t listened to those yet, but I thought they would be helpful for those interested in Orthodoxy…we have some lurkers who are.

  7. Em says:

    people with enemies lists don’t fear God… IMHO

    ‘course that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be discerning… but there is a difference, isn’t there?

  8. Michael says:

    A big difference.

    The whole “discerning” thing is incredibly overworked.

    We can discern and accept different doctrines among the brethren without making them enemies.

  9. Xenia says:

    People on the Left can be “Bible believing,” they just choose to emphasize, that is, *really believe and put into action* different parts of the Scriptures.

  10. Michael says:

    If one follows Jesus there are times when we accidentally will look like both left,right, and middle.

    That is why we cannot defile the Gospel with politics that demand affiliation from either side.

  11. Xenia says:

    Some groups emphasize Rapture teachings and Ken Ham style creationism; some groups emphasize loving one’s neighbor.

  12. Xenia says:

    Michael, that’s for sure.

  13. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Roger Oakland is teaching “church history” at the moment…this is awful.

  14. Xenia says:

    I cannot bear to watch.

  15. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I can’t watch anymore either….this guy is teaching things that are not even close to reality.
    Time to go get some biscuits and gravy and be about better things.

  16. Xenia says:

    I help with a few charity organizations in town, mostly involving food distribution. Of the 50 – 60 volunteers I encounter, there is no one from the evangelical community that I have been able to spot. No one from my old CC or Baptist church. There may be some that I haven’t discovered but so far, no luck. All the workers either belong to a mainline, liberal denomination or they are not church goers. Lots of lapsed Orthodox, I am sorry to report. They all probably hold to political views that I believe are horrible.

    Yet if I meet up with a friend from my old world they want to talk about the Signs of the Times.

    Why is this? Why is it that these devout evangelical believers have gotten so stuck on one aspect of the Christian life and are so weak on an area that that I believe is more important? I know this isn’t true everywhere. Maybe it’s just my area.

    I once rode up to San Francisco with some evangelical friends (AoG, CC, etc.) and the whole ride was them bashing Obama care, connecting it to the End of the World. They were of the opinion ion that “the church” should take care of sick folk. We parked the car on the Embarcadero and got out and standing right there on the sidewalk was a homeless disabled man, and they walked right past him as if he were a pile of dog poo. I would hate to rely on those good Christian ladies to help me if I needed more than a casserole.

    I don’t get this. These women genuinely love the Lord. They have gotten side tracked.

  17. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    It’s because of god awful conferences like this one.
    I’ve heard all the nonsense we’ve seen here over the years repeated and reinforced over and over again today.

    We are biblically and historically illiterate to a painful degree.

  18. Jean says:

    In Christ’s Death, Death Died!

    “Shall I hesitate to utter that which the Lord has deigned to do for me? Is not Christ the life? And yet Christ hung on the cross. Is not Christ life? And yet Christ was dead. But in Christ’s death, death died. Life dead slew death; the fullness of life swallowed up death; death was absorbed in the body of Christ. So also shall we say in the resurrection, when now triumphant we shall sing, β€œWhere, O death, is your contest? Where, O death, is your sting?” 1 Corinthians 15:54 Meanwhile brethren, that we may be healed from sin, let us now gaze on Christ crucified; for β€œas Moses,” says He, β€œlifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes in Him may not perish, but have everlasting life.” Just as they who looked on that serpent perished not by the serpent’s bites, so they who look in faith on Christ’s death are healed from the bites of sins. But those were healed from death to temporal life; while here He says, β€œthat they may have everlasting life.” Now there is this difference between the figurative image and the real thing: the figure procured temporal life; the reality, of which that was the figure, procures eternal life.”

    – Saint Augustine, Tractate Ev. Jo. 12.11

  19. Michael says:

    Jean,

    Great passage…

  20. Cash says:

    Michael and Xenia,

    Great conversation about the left and right. Especially agree with #9 and #10. There are those on the left that are actually doing what the Scriptures teach but they are demonized by those on the right. Similarly, as Michael noted, you are going to be on all sides of different issues if you follow Scripture. So it’s not just a tidy left and right thing.

  21. Michael says:

    Cash,

    Thanks..it’s not tidy at all.

    The church is supposed to speak truth to power no matter who holds the power.

  22. Xenia says:

    Michael, but that still doesn’t explain the reluctance to help out with local charities. One can be Rapture Ready and still work in a soup kitchen.

    One answer I have heard is that people would prefer not to work with non-christian organizations. Unless the express purpose is to make converts, it’s not worth doing. Yet that leaves all the food distribution organizations in the hands of (what they would consider to be) unbelievers with no distribution of “If you died tonight why should God let you into heaven?” tracts. But I jabber on and on about church, God, etc. as a volunteer for secular organizations. They can’t shut me up! And talking about what I did at church Sunday seems so much more natural and less condescending than an artificial “Roman Road to Salvation” discussion which backs a person into a corner. I give everyone plenty of chances to talk about God with me and some do. Many don’t, of course. I think evangelicals would thrive in these circumstances if they would give it a try. Their natural cheerful “God is so good!” attitude would be a wonderful addition.

  23. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Most of the churches here in the valley will not partner with another church in the valley, let alone a secular group.

    There is very little teaching in evangelicalism about loving your neighbor compared to telling your neighbor he’s an end time pawn of Satan.

    The fear that good works = Catholic is also an issue.

  24. Cash says:

    “One can be Rapture Ready and still work in a soup kitchen.”–absolute gold. πŸ™‚

  25. Xenia says:

    When I enter a client’s house for the first time, I look around to see what kind of religious doo-dads they have. Most of the elderly Afro-Americans have two things for certain: A large print Bible and a photo of Martin Luther King on the wall. So I jabber bout the Bible. The Hispanics usually have statues or paintings of the Virgin Mary so I jabber about La Mama de Dios. I collect prayer requests and bring them Bibles, icons, etc. No converts, these people are already Christians. Many of them know they are a year or so away from their deaths and God is big on their minds.

    I don’t tell these stories to toot my own horn, although it might seem like I am. I am trying to give people ideas, things they can do. Look around you!

  26. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I love what you’re saying and would gladly have you be the main speaker at a Phx P conference. πŸ™‚

  27. Xenia says:

    My parish will only partner with other EO churches. Well, I go to church to receive the Eucharist, to pray, and to hear the Scriptures and thus equipped, I can look past my own Church’s lack of effort in this area. No point waiting around for my little parish to start feeding the homeless when there are big, well equipped secular organizations that need volunteers.

  28. London says:

    “Most of the churches here in the valley will not partner with another church in the valley, let alone a secular group.”

    Yep. I have up on trying to partner with churches long ago.

  29. Xenia says:

    Since Orthodoxy is one of the topics today, Lent begins Monday. We begin Lent by forgiving everyone and we’ll have Forgiveness Vespers tomorrow (Sunday.) I post this article every year:

    http://frederica.com/writings/forgiveness-vespers.html

    Brothers and Sisters of the PhxP Community, please forgive me for any snark, sarcasm, mean-spiritedness, pomposity and arrogance that I have committed against any of you over the past year, (including you, Pastor Al.) Forgive me.

  30. Em says:

    my valley is a little different, i guess, all the churches band together to provide for those who are in need in the community… up here the churches, including the R.C.s, but excluding the L.D.S.s (who asked to be included, but were rebuffed due to their distortions of the Faith), deliver alms in the name of Christ only, but without exclusions to whom they serve “alms” … do they still have their individual deacon’s funds for needy inside their own groups? with the exception of the Catholics who have their own charity, i don’t know…

  31. Em says:

    Xenia, you are forgiven … πŸ™‚

  32. Babylon's Dread says:

    I have often heard it said that you have to keep them with what you employed to win them. Nothing is more self-validating to pessimistic end timers than a dulling church. It is in itself another sign.

    As for teaming with others it happens in denominations, it happens in subset groups. It does not happen often with people going too far out of their belief system. I am sure Xenia sees many from liturgical churches in her volunteer circles.

    This is not a tragedy it is how humans find connection. It is not the worst form of human tendency to clan, not even close.

    Sometimes we get in a twist over things that are not too consequential … myself included.

    As for the prophecy conference buffs, as much as I dislike their particular flavor I am still glad they are in the family. We all are.

    Since Xenia is celebrating lent I think I will forgive some people myself. The Lord knows I have enemies. It wasn’t and isn’t the plan but it works out every time. There is always someone to forgive.

  33. Filbertz says:

    If one excludes the so-called left, the Body is horribly disfigured and disfunctional. The end-times folks who won’t lift a finger to serve others have separated the sheep and goats themselves, a dangerous practice indeed.

  34. Jean says:

    The Power of Prayer

    “If the lust for political power leads to corruption, the lust for spiritual power all too readily leads to damnation. It is very dangerous for sinners, like us, to possess divine power. Yet we do, in fact, have access to divine power in prayer. That power does not make us more powerful, but less so, for, like John the Baptist, we must decrease in power so Christ may increase His power in us. Only if we begin and end with our spiritual weakness can we safely appreciate the true power of prayer. The power of Christ in prayer is made perfect in our weakness (2 Cor 12:9).”

    – John W. Kleinig, Grace Upon Grace, Spirituality for Today (p.193)

  35. London says:

    We gave up on churches, but have found a good alliance to be part of that includes a lot of businesses in the community.
    There’s no strings attached this way and everyone is working for the common good, not to make their empire bigger or to judge whether or not we believe the “right” stuff.
    Many of the folks we have connected with who are the spanners between the groups are catholic. Not sure if Catholics are more involved in charity of if its just because we are in NM.

  36. Jean says:

    Why are Christians charitable (true charty)? Because they begin to reflect the mind of Christ.

    Jesus didn’t work his ministry through the establishment, and that really pissed off the gate keepers.

  37. Michael says:

    This will be a great segment…”Christian Marxism:The Social Gospel”

    God help us…

  38. Jean says:

    #37, That’s an antithesis.

  39. Michael says:

    Jean,

    These people are out of their minds.

    Where is MLD when we need him?

  40. Mike says:

    #37

    Yeah, about the same intelligence level as Donald Trump blaming last night’s fracas in Chicago on that Communist Bernie Sanders.

  41. Michael says:

    Mike,

    This far outshines that…or out darks it.

  42. Michael says:

    I pray that they put this evil up on YouTube so people can see for themselves what kind of idiots these people are and what kind of idiots they want others to be.

    I’ve never heard all the garbage in one talk before.

    Very clear that unless you are a hard right Republican you are not a “Bible believing Christian” and are influenced by communists.

  43. Michael says:

    “The reduction of salvation to an atonement-only gospel is a modern mistake, especially apparent in affluent and powerful countries that would feel easily threatened by a full proclamation of the kingdom of God and all its teachings. In that private gospel, what is lost is Jesus the Teacher, who shows us the ways of his kingdom. There is no powerful lion, just a sacrificial lamb.”

    This statement was declared “diabolical”.

    Michael Savage was commended as someone who “understand what’s going on”, however.

  44. Cash says:

    Michael Savage is someone who has Trump’s ear, from how I understand it. That dolt once said soldiers with PTSD should stop whining about it.

  45. Michael says:

    Cash,

    I’ll give this guy and this conference credit.
    They aren’t hinting around at their hatred for the brethren and anyone who doesn’t buy their whole screed.
    They are right up front with it all.

  46. Cash says:

    Michael,

    You’re right, at least there’s no subterfuge going on there. But man….their hatred of the brethren who don’t go their way is palbable.

  47. Jean says:

    “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12 ESV)

    I’m afraid there’s an unholy trinity at work.

  48. once a cc guru says:

    Just keep crossing your fingers and rubbing your rabbit’s foot for “Cruz” to win because prayer certainly ain’t working…

    The Don is going all the way!

  49. Cash says:

    And Jesus, the great King, came riding into His kingdom on a donkey.

  50. Michael says:

    I wouldn’t vote for either of them at gunpoint, so I’ll just focus on the kingdom of God.

  51. Em says:

    as a whole we, who call ourselves Christians, do seem to have a problem separating the two kingdom categories these days…

  52. Em says:

    i honestly had not read Michael’s #50 when i post my 51 because i’d been occupied writing a long observation/pontification which i finally erased – so i wasted a comment… or maybe two?

  53. Michael says:

    Your words are never a waste, Em.

    I’m off for the weekend…take over. πŸ™‚

  54. Xenia says:

    Thank you, Em.

  55. Dan from georgia says:

    Michael, are these end times conferences common in the Calvary chapel org?

  56. Dan from georgia says:

    Funny how at all these end times conferences they are always talking more about their enemies, of which there are MANY, instead of talking about the Lord. And this is my observation from attending only one conference ( Jan Markel- who has earned a spot on rightwingwatch.org website), and from reading Micheals posts about them.

    When will this diseased drivel end?

  57. Michael says:

    Dan,

    You just caught me…

    They are not as common as they used to be.
    The old line traditionalists are fading away and what I linked to today is like a last gasp/scream of that group.

    It is still a group heavily focused on dispensational eschatology, but there was much wailing about fellow affiliates “falling away”.

  58. Dan from georgia says:

    Have some good time away Michael!

  59. Em says:

    time to spring forward tonight – or sometime in the next 6 or 7 hours

    in my past years there was always some little old grey haired soul who would arrive late for church in the Spring or be sitting there all alone in an empty church wondering what happened in the Fall … do you suppose daylight savings is of the devil?

    #54 – Xenia, if you forgive me for not being orthodox, the least i can do is forgive you for being one … i guess i should forgive the Lutherans here also … and the Pentecostals … and the holier-than-me’s … God be merciful to me, too

  60. The Dude says:

    I refuse to watch any more prophecy conferences.They say the same thing over and over again.The Lord is going to return on His own good timing.I’m happy with that.

  61. jIMMYdOGS says:

    there are a lot of “left” leaning Christians

    the hardline black and white statements exclude the grey areas.

    yes the left CHRISTIANS LOVE JESUS.

  62. Pastor Al says:

    Let’s hold an “End to the End Times Conferences Conference”

    One nice perk of the Calvary Chapel old guard dying off soon will hopefully be an end to the stupid never-correct End Times hysteria and false emphasis.

    It’s a scam. It’s hype that puts butts in seats, sells books and tickets and makes a few CC guys a lot of money…and they are always wrong.

  63. Em says:

    left leaning or right leaning – perhaps it is a sin if Christians lean either way, eh?

    i recall hearing R.B. Thieme voice his disapproval of Lindsey taking teachings from the time that he’d sat under Thieme and exploiting them – whether for personal financial gain or for rabble rousing, i’m not sure – probably both – dunno … we don’t like to think that we’re rabble, but sometimes we act like it, eh?

    on another tack, i pray that we recognize the significance of the attempt to shut Trump down – both by organized riots and by ALL the politicians who are blaming him for stirring up violence … any adult who has listened to Hillary’s addresses (she’d achieved her goal and is damping down now) in which she pointed out the neglect and brutalizing of minorities should have seen what the end result would be … very few and timid are the voices for free assembly and speech to be preserved now… i am wondering if we are witnessing a serious turning point of this nation … dunno – but don’t like what i think i see

  64. Dan from Georgia says:

    Pastor Al, it isn’t just the CC crowd and their diseased yakking about the end times. I was at a conference hosted by Jan Markell in MN and the same garbage is peddled. I don’t think she has any association with Calvary Chapel other than this tired eschatology.

    Re: left versus right Christians and the Kingdom of God…after spending most of my Christian life as a typical right-leaning believer, I have hovered around much left-leaning ideology over the last few years, and I can tell you this: as insufferable as some hard-core right-wing believers can be, just as many on the left are equally insufferable and, frankly, kind of dumb.

    Where I am at now is a mixture of left and right. But boy do I have those classifications. In my mind the Kingdom of God is not a left vs. right proposition.

  65. j2theperson says:

    ***in my past years there was always some little old grey haired soul who would arrive late for church in the Spring or be sitting there all alone in an empty church wondering what happened in the Fall … do you suppose daylight savings is of the devil?***

    Yes. Yes. It is of the devil.

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