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79 Responses

  1. Jim Jr. says:


  2. Nonnie says:

    Amen, Michael. Count your blessings.

  3. I am Soooo with you!

  4. erunner says:

    Praise & worship is up for the week. I’ve included a song by Tommy James & The Shondells! Feel free to drop by.

  5. Jtk says:

    So family is pushing the book “The Harbinger” on me–anyone know the essence? Have Cliff Notes, so to speak??

  6. Nonnie says:

    JTK….conspiracy…end times…..prophecy…..I had a friend force the book on me, after making me watch the film. ugh

  7. Jtk says:

    Thanks. That is what it smelt like….

    That is what their usual “likes” list consists of….

  8. Alex says:

    Amen Michael. Our troubles are all relative, though they can suck. Imagine being the father in Africa who wakes every day wondering how he’s going to feed his kids. Puts things in perspective for me when I am tempted to “woe is me”. Overcome, my brother. You’re in my thoughts and prayers.

  9. Jim Jr. says:

    That smells like a Jesus juke.

  10. Anne Kohut says:

    #9 shows your ignorance of a friendship between two men that is almost as close as older/younger brother or father & son.

  11. The mandate for every day is. “This is the day the Lord has made and we are to rejoice and be glad in it” “…Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof”. Worry about tomorows problems tomorrow!

  12. Alex says:

    Amen Hopkins.

    Agreed Anne, Jim Jr. has trolled my site. #hatersrgonnahate it’ll become more apparent if I participate here again.

    Btw, got interviewed by the NY Times and will be on Google News site: “God Discussion” next week. Praise God for the platform!

  13. Michael,
    “It’s all about the customers and helping my co-workers”
    That’s what I kept telling myself when my Apple experience was at its darkest.
    Bringing value to someone in the moment is the joy of life while God prepares the next thing.

    Continuing to pray, extend the reach of the story regarding you, Paul & Tim.


  14. I think Jim Jr comment was about JTK’s #5

  15. Jim Jr. says:

    Alex doesn’t. BTW who does the NY Times have a longer history of defending? God or Satan?

  16. Jim Jr. says:

    “… is the joy of life while God prepares the next thing…”
    When said to a man that can’t feed his children, that is definitely a Jesus juke. 🙂

  17. Anne says:

    JJ – if I recall correctly the OT contains great examples regarding Jehovah resorting to using the Amorites when his people didn’t pay attention :mrgreen:

  18. Jim Jr.
    I’ve been an online friend of Michael Newnham for quite awhile so you’re commenting on a public communication between me and a man whom I admire, who has encouraged me when I was down, stood by me when I was in spiritual and theological turmoil, hung in there when I was going through some career changes of my own, when my finances were down.
    I know that he is in the midst of tough times as I have been and sometimes all we have is a kind word for each other, an expression of good intent in the midst of shitty circumstances, so if my “Jesus juke” offends you then I invite you to cordially piss off.

  19. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Here at hooters with family to watch the UFC, yeah im at a place where the waitresses wear shorts and t shirts for uniforms and the UFC is violent but me and my family are enjoying each others company and the wings are awesome

  20. David says:

    for your view pleasure, a vid of my son practicing on his drums:

  21. Solomon Rodriguez says:


    As a old school Northstar fan I take great offense to ur avatar 🙂

  22. David says:

    I was sad to see the Northstars leave, but at least you have the Wild now.

  23. Found a lot of Leadbelly here. Just wanted to share it. Legal and free BTW!

  24. John Duncan says:

    Open 🙂
    it seems that the central battle and the main battle is over Thy Will be done Not Mine… it is the Not Mine that we fight so much about.
    You see we can argue over a great many things about our faith, but at the end it comes down to will we do what God wants, when what God wants is against my ease or when it is against what is congenial to my nature. It is when God’s will goes against my will that the real Christian faith is shown for what it really is.

    I am so thankful for all the help I receive from CCLE and Pastor Steve. I would not make it at all except for the help the church gives me financially. The church even pays for a helper to help me during the day. I could not make it without the help of the church, and to all of you who support CCLE remember that I am a recipient of your support as well as missions and so much that they manage to do on a very slim income. and I know about their slim income if you recall I used to be involved there and know just how lean the support is for that church. On average they get by on far less than other churches their size and they manges the stretch those dollars to the max. So I want to say thanks to all of you, and to Steve and Dave and the Board. Thank you .

    Now take what I have to say for what it worth if anything. if the shoe doesn’t fit don’t wear it.

    It is very interesting to me these days that time has become our enemies greatest weapon. We live as if time is on our side and we can make room for God at a later time. As if we can schedule him into our lives, as if he need to text us if he really need our time.

    Now is the time. This moment is all we have. NOW. that is all we will ever have is now. Yet we live as if later belongs to us in some way.

    No Room in the Inn. No room in our schedule. No Room today. We have all bought into the American way of life every member of the family is together alone. They live in the same house, but might as well live in different apartments in the same complex. Everyone even when together is writing a text or reading a text, they are all in different worlds and have no time for real contact. I believe every family needs to have a rule where everything but the home phone is turned off for a few hours of family time daily. and I believe every family member needs to give out their home phone so when people really need them they can be reached. late at night when I need help all I get is cell phones that are turned of or in another room. in other words when my darkest hours hit and I need help the most I can’t reach anyone, I might as well be alone on this planet. Now there are some brothers I can reach, but no one woman who is physically able to help answers their phone late at night. so we live in a time when we are more connected and more cut off from each other than ever before. There is NO ROOM to be disturbed at night for most people. I sincerely understand that. you really have no room, the questions is WHY.

    The world today I admit is a scary place when we realize we won’t even answer our cell phone. It is to much of an intrusion into our time. We text. I have learned lately that if I want a response don’t leave a voice message, no one listens leave a text and you get a response. Now why is that? I believe that we are all hiding from reach other. to actually talk to someone is too real. We can’t hide behind the persona they have created by living in a world where personal contact is no longer sitting and talking, you see we give our real selves to each other in real conversations, in a text it is impersonal and barren of all real contact.

    Today people believe the online persona they have created is their real self. They don’t like real contact because the facade fades it is torn down by real connection. We live on face book, where we can present just those things about ourselves that seep through in real contact. It is easy to post things and leave out real self out of the picture all together, so in a time of more connected ease, we live in a time of great danger of loosing what connecting is all about.

    There is no delete button in real life. There is no pause to think before we post, there is no way to cover up our real self in real contact.

    it was never meant to be convenient to be a Christian, it is not about ease, or what fits my natural inclinations, it is not comfortable to do the things Jesus said to do. For one thing they require that there is room in our lives to actually be the one who dose them. Room to allow people to be close to us, room to allow intrusions, room to be there when people need you, not when it is convenient for you.

    Of late I have discovered that people have no room in their lives. I mean they really don’t have room for one more thing. How can you be a Christian and do the things Jesus said to do when you fill every moment of your life and leave no room for Jesus to intrude. You can turn off you cell, you can refuse to return voice messages, but you can’t block out the voice of conviction.

    Mat 25:34* Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35* for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36* I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37* Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40* And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

    I think now people will say I didn’t have room in my life to do the things you asked. Can you answer me why you don’t have room?

    Oh wait I forgot to text you when I needed help is not gonna fly

    My will is to have my life so full of having the stuff the world had told me I need to have, and it leave no room in my life. I can’t be expected to spend the night with a sick friend, how can you possibly ask that of me.

    you know I only ask what the Lord already asked. and for the most part the answer I have gotten is I don’t have room in my life I can’t. And you know what I know you are right, you have chosen to live a lifestyle that leaves no room.

    Funny the Men find time to help me. But the help I need from men is different than the help my wife needs from woman. The men have been more that faithful. but late at night when I need help with Debbie there is no one who leaves there cell phone on who is physically able to do the things I need. Many offer, but no one answers.

    For the most part I believe we have all left it up for somebody else to be the one who cares. we would rather judge a bum than feed him, we ridicule people standing on off ramps, and make believe that they live in nice house and make a lot of money, that is easier that giving isn’t it. If you don’t like beggars then look for needy looking people, they are there, you might have to go out of your comfort zone, but I see them all the time, instead of waiting for them the bum a dollar off of you why don’t you approach them and talk to them, then if you have been grocery shopping do like I do and buy some convenient food and hand them a bag of food before they ask. I actually give money to people that I am pretty sure will go to drugs, but I would rather see one man sleep with a full stomach then spend my time judging the poor.

    But like I already said people find it easier to leave for somebody else to be the one who cares. You give to the church after all, you even donate to the local food ministries or do you even tithe and give? Somehow I think that once people learn how to give the way God wants them to give they tend to tithe and be the one who cares. And after all the years of being a pastor I never knew how much any one person gave, but I know the percentage of people who attend who don’t even come close to a tenth of their income. If all the people who attend CCLE gave a tenth they would not have any money problems at all. Instead all the years I served we had to always be very creative just to survice, when if everyone gave we would have thrived and been able to support many more ministries..

    I once asked a woman what she thought God’s will was for her. Her answer I fear represents far to many. She said that it was God’s will for her to be happy and have all she wanted in life. I won’t tell you what I told her.

  25. Alex says:

    Glad to see the public expression of gratitude and details of the help CCLE and Steve are giving to DMW. That’s what the church is for and that’s what it should do. Now if Chuck would kick lose some of those multi-millions to help people in a practical manner…

  26. Alex says:

    “Jim Jr. says:
    February 23, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    That smells like a Jesus juke.”

    Nope. I think people like you and me should help Michael if he needs help. Have you ever helped him in a practical manner? If you haven’t then who is doing the real Jesus Juke?

  27. DMW says:

    Alex it has even made totally clear to mr years ago that I was relieved of all duties and responsibilities with the CC movement. It was liberating to no longer be a recognized part of at the time CCOF and CCCM I am free from all they are and all they will be.

    Chuck made no commitment to me or to any other I am aware of that he would in any way help us. And indeed his favorite things to say back then was all ministries stand or fall on their own. There would never be support from CCCM to keep any of us afloat. So as a man he never broke his word to me. My last encounter was very bad, and on that one I was not only free, but I was told that no they were under orders not to talk tome. And they kept their word on that to.. A ton has been lifted off my back to never hear all the stuff going on. I am free at last.

    As to your battle it continues.and I asked you to not use me in any way as cannon fodder in your fight with the I just want to be left alone concerning CCCM . and yes Calvary chapel had done wonderfully by me and are a good example to how churches ought to treat the founding pastor.

    As to me helping Michael is not for me to say

  28. Jim Jr. says:

    “the OT contains great examples regarding Jehovah resorting to using the Amorites when his people”
    Anne, that was under the old covenant, right?

  29. Today is the 2nd Sunday in Lent.

    Today is also St. Matthias Day – I like this; “We don’t need to know anything about Matthias other than that He was an eyewitness to what Jesus said and did and that He was called by Jesus through the church. We know why Matthias was called. The Lord sent His apostles into all the world to preach the Gospel to all of mankind.”

    And as I prepare for the Lord’s Table this morning, I remind myself that the Lutheran Church is sacramental because we refuse to separate the work of the Holy Spirit from the Word.

  30. Solomon Rodriguez says:


    Im a blues fan now but I also support the wild

  31. Jim Jr.,
    What’s your point?

  32. PP Vet says:

    DMW, you put the “open” in Open Blogging. 🙂

    Bless you, dear one.

  33. from this corner says:

    reading down the thread and being blessed again as you all turn my mind to face God with almost every single comment

    DMW’s – what good praises affirming God’s right to be God – Debbie’s need for night time help and no woman to call out in the middle of the night – i can understand their reluctance to take middle of the night phone calls, but i could envision a ministry among the women of the churches – several teams of 2 (ladies) on call – setting up the roster might take a miracle of God, but …

    covenants? the O.T. examples of God working among the Jews – including cause and affect – are not *all* just historical record and bound by covenant are they?

  34. Jim Jr. says:

    My point is that the relationship that God has with the Jews is not the same relationship He has with the Bride. He treats the one like a wayward child when they go wayward, and he treats the other like a bride.
    IOW I doubt God uses the NY Times for anything. Satan still has responsibilities on this earth.
    Which statement is more accurate?
    God used the NY Times to…
    Satan used the NY Times to…

  35. Anne says:

    What about the God who supposedly uses ALL things – assumably good or bad – for his purposes? I personally don’t know how all that works. But do have a good handle on reaping/sowing, what goes around comes around :mrgreen:

  36. PP Vet says:

    Had dinner with a rich person the other night.

    I got the check.

    From family of richest man that ever lived.

    I felt richer.


  37. Jim Jr. says:

    “…I personally don’t know how all that works….”
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.
    “…But do have a good handle on reaping/sowing…”
    And we both know the clear teaching of wheat and tares.

  38. Jim Jr. says:

    PP Vet,
    for me, the rich are guilty until proven innocent. Every rich person I’ve hung out with always volunteers to pick up the bill.
    You may FEEL richer, but your wallet is lighter. God bless.

  39. from this corner says:

    PP Vet, if he ordered liberally from the priciest menu items, scratch him off your good list and move him to your nobody list – he was intentionally disrespecting you … otherwise, he just maybe one of those self-inflating people who think that you felt honored to dine with him … at any rate, erase him
    BTW – i would consider it an honor to dine with YOU – a member of our King’s family, eh?

  40. ( |o )====::: says:

    Jim Jr,
    “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.”

    What’s even more apparent is your having missed a rhetorical question designed to expand your stilted, smug and dismissive attitude.

    Please address the lady’s question

  41. Jim Jr. says:

    The question is vague as it stands. It all depends on defining “use.” Do I believe the NY Times’ typist is guided by the Holy Spirit? No.
    Just by voluntarily participating in an activity (in this case an interview) doesn’t mean that is what God has commanded.
    The wheat and tares are his, and presuming to be God’s agent in separating them is presumptuous.

  42. PP Vet says:

    Well ftc I felt led to cover the tab, was not sure why. Later I realized that as the older man and as the father of his date, it was probably the right thing to do.

    Realized though that I have no yen for big-city or big-dollar living. And I guess that is a double-entendre on “yen”.

  43. from this corner says:

    #42 – well, Vet, that changes things entirely 😀 assuming it was your daughter? you made her proud, i’m sure

  44. Jim Jr.
    You really are obtuse.
    You are actually saying that God is not at work in the diverse outcomes of the actions of humanity, and specifically that God, because of lack of written commandment, is therefore immediately assumed to NOT be an active agent in The New York Times’ interview with the distinct possibility of bringing to light the allegations of abuse and the inaction of a movement that could but does nothing to require of its pastor in that small town to live according to a biblical standard?

    What kind of theology possesses you that you require chapter and verse to simply applaud someone doing the right thing and seeing the Author of Life prompting the action on the part of a secular reporter?

  45. What Guitar Man said in #44.

  46. Here’s art God used to help rescue the real folks about whom the movie Argo retells…

    If you cannot see the providential hand of God in the actions of mercy, compassion and risk that good people did, simply because it was the right thing to do, then please search your soul and ask God to expand your myopic vision

  47. Not agreeing with JJ here. But seriously G, “Sam, Lord of Light” is just Galactus. Are the FF and the Silver Surfer gonna show up soon! 🙂

  48. if they help rescue innocents from an evil and oppressive regime, then why the heck not? 😉

  49. Jim Jr. says:

    And if the rescue had failed you’d say….here’s the art God used to FAIL in the rescue?
    The world is filled with mystery, and once again it goes to how you define “use.” How direct is the connection between the object used and the user?
    To maintain that God is good is to maintain a certain distance between God and the obvious evil we are surrounded by.
    Your and Anne’s position puts God in charge of Jeffrey Dahmer to fulfill God’s purpose.
    Which by any definition makes God evil.
    To that I say no thanks.
    Let the tares grow with the wheat lest in removing the tares you destroy the wheat.
    It is God’s job to separate the wheat and tares. It’s not OUR job.

  50. DMW says:

    You know I asked the women’s ministry to find women to put their named on a list of those willing to be “on call” not ONE” signed up not one.

  51. I hate to tell you this JJ, but God was totally sovereign over the greatest sin in history. The suffering and death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Just because we can’t fathom the plans of God does not mean they aren’t for good in the end.
    But, it seems that you do know all of God’s plan and can tell us definitively that God ordains this, but not that. I have no idea of most of what goes on in the world and how it fits in to God’s plan, but I know he has a plan and I know the ending of that plan and that is enough for me.

  52. from this corner says:

    DMW, #50 – women tend to function more reliably in groups (just my observation of my SIL – sisters in the Lord 🙂 ) … “are you going to sign up? me neither, then…” praying for your dear Debbie (& you) – praying some dear sister with standing will get the bright idea of organizing teams … er something … dunno

    God keep

  53. No, if the escape had failed I would still comment all the effort which went into liberating innocent people from a tyrant.

    Are you really that passive? Are you meaning to tell me that if someone whips a child you will not act, you will wait for God to give a word, send an angel, provide miraculous means so as to not thwart the pure will of God? You would reject the actions of any non-christian who was simply moved by compassion to do the right thing? You are actually discounting the validity of the image of God being programmed into the very creation of each human being?

    “Let the tares grow with the wheat lest in removing the tares you destroy the wheat.
    It is God’s job to separate the wheat and tares. It’s not OUR job.”

    So, since this originated with our being excited that Alex had been interviewed by The New York Times, and this is your conclusion, that we are to let the tares grow with the wheat,, then you are saying that nothing should be done to make public the story of Alex, his and Tim’s being sued by the pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia, Paul’s statement before the court, none of that should be brought into the light, and that nothing has been done by The Calvary Chapel Movement, and that’s OK with you?

  54. from this corner says:

    gotta say one thing about the Grenier saga, much good spiritual ground gleaned and gained among the folk who come here to ponder and post – IMNSHO, of course

  55. Jim Jr. says:

    ” that we are to let the tares grow with the wheat”
    It is what Scripture commands in this situation. In some cases we do not know who the wheat and tares are, and removing the tare damages the wheat.
    We can be wrong. You say a man is a tare, I may say the same man is a wheat. In the minority of cases you and I can agree, but borderline cases are the majority and also the most difficult to assess.
    “nothing should be done to make public”
    Bringing family disagreements before unbelievers is prohibited by Scripture. You may not agree with how a certain situation is handled, but your disagreeing doesn’t make you correct.
    We’d have to get into the analysis of evidence and stuff, but this is the short reply.

  56. Jim Jr. says:

    To my mind Jack Schaap is a clear-cut case of a tare, and his ‘polished shaft’ bit is a huge red flag.
    Jack Schaap has been convicted of a crime.
    If you believe a particular pastor is on the same footing as Jack Schaap, then we have to discuss your reasons for believing so, and whether or not your reasons are strong enough to support your conclusion.

  57. Jim Jr. says:

    ” much good spiritual ground gleaned and gained”
    But at what cost? If the accusations are false, I’d say the bad outweighs any good that may come to PPers from contemplating.
    The damage to wheat from removing a tare can be considerable, and it is also possible that what you are removing is not a tare, in which case you are touching God’s anointed (sorry, couldn’t help that last one).

  58. Alex says:

    Jim Jr, you’re an idiot, that is self-evident. No need to comment further.

  59. ( |o )====::: says:

    I agree wholeheartedly with Alex, Jim Jr.

    I’m gonna play some music now, Alabama Shakes.
    Brittany and her band are awesome.

  60. Jim Jr. says:

    Disagreement doesn’t mean that the opposing position is idiotic.
    Perhaps one of you could give me an interpretation of our Lord’s teaching on wheat and tares that supports your position.
    Or, you could call me an idiot and/or disengage into solipsistic music-listening.

  61. jlo says:

    I went to an informational meeting at my church tonight. I learned they have complete accountability for the Pastor, not only locally but also within a denomination. There is a member ship that appoints the elders. The budget and finances are available for any member to see at any time. The Pastors are all educated. They believe that the laity and the pastors are on a level playing field. My guess would be that 60% of their ministries are run by laity; they not only equip but empower them to serve our community. They partner with other churches outside of their denomination to serve the community.

    I’ve been really encouraged by the health that I’ve seen, it was good to see that it is intentional.

  62. Alex says:

    DMW, sorry I gave that impression with the Chuck comment. I didn’t mean it as connected to your situation (but I can see why you would get that impression). I was referring to Chuck, and really all wealthy “ministries”, kicking down more money to help folks in general.

  63. Jim, Jr,
    Here is the plain and simple truth. Clergy abusing their position, just as a man abusing his position in the home, can only continue until the abuser is publicly exposed, his secret double life of public piety and respectability quickly shattered when the world learns of his mistreating his wife and children.

    You can quote me scripture all day long, pull “touch not God’s anointed” out of context to support clergy or men who do such evil, and warn me to wait and “let God seperate the wheat from the tares” but factor this into your lilly livered, mealy mouthed support of abusers,
    what about “the anointed” who are always forgotten, innocents, the wives and children who suffer at the hands of these men who no one will confront, and who have people covering for them instead of lovingly demanding that they step away from the sacred office they hold in their churches and in their homes and get counseling for their misdeeds? Is there a caste system to “the anointing”? Of course not! Each and every believer is anointed, equally. Sure, gifted differently, entrusted to different offices, positions, titles and accountabilities, but in the case of power abuse and injustice we are all equal and naked before God. Anything less is madness.

    It’s no wonder that those outside of the household of faith think we’re nut cases for putting up with these things in the name of “the ministry”. What about the words of Jesus, that it is millstone-worthy-drown-you-in-the-ocean-appalling for someone to stumble one of the little ones? Aren’t they far more innocent and therefore in a protected class greater than an abusive clergyman, be it a Roman Catholic priest or cardinal, or Jack Schaap, or one of the many in the Calvary Movement who have been outed?

    Honestly, I find most atheists to be more clear thinking than our own “leaders” about this subject.

  64. To calm my soul, I just figured out Alabama Shakes’ “Heat Lightning” and “Hold On”.
    Gotta go play them in my best Southern Gospel mindset, imagining a soul gathering, lights dim, people with raised hands, worshiping Jesus, when someone stands and starts swaying, I start playing the chords, we start to sing a slightly rewritten version…

    “Well, it felt like heat lightning struck me
    When Your presence filled the room
    It hit so very suddenly
    I don’t know what I should do
    I felt like I should tremble
    And so I started to
    You know that you could really hurt me
    I guess you could if you wanted to…

    But I’d like to say
    oooh, oooh, oooh!
    Cuz I just can’t explain it
    oooh, oooh, oooh!
    Yes you make me feel good!
    oooh, oooh, oooh!
    Yes you do!
    oooh, oooh, oooh!”

  65. Jim Jr. says:

    “can only continue until the abuser is publicly exposed, his secret double life of public piety and respectability quickly shattered when the world learns of his mistreating his wife and children.”
    If Michael’s previous experience is any indicator, this is not what occurs. Public exposing does nothing other than reinforce the positions people have already adopted; the supporters support more, the critics criticize more, and nothing changes. Except for the unbelievers’ perception of the church as a loose collection of nutbags.
    G, you still have not dealt with the possibility of misidentification. What of those ministers that are “publicly exposed” that are not guilty of what the public is told they are guilty of?
    Innocent until proven guilty is the cornerstone of the American legal system, and “public exposing” short-circuits that process.
    Public exposing by advertising a conviction of a crime is one thing, and Michael has experience with that.
    Public exposing by advertising suspicions and allegations is another thing entirely, and Michael has experience with that, too.
    The former is Scriptural, the latter is not. The former is just, the latter is not.

  66. Alex says:

    G said, “onestly, I find most atheists to be more clear thinking than our own “leaders” about this subject.”

    Amen, true in my experience as well. If the “devil” is the “father of lies”…and there is a ton of lying and intellectual dishonesty in the clergy and in “ministry” and religious orgs, then?

    Truth is truth wherever it is found and sometimes the Atheists/Agnostics speak a lot of truth regarding these and other issues.

  67. Jim Jr. says:

    “Truth is truth wherever it is found”
    That is as bad as ‘it is what it is.’
    These are quips that do not further the discussion, which right now is about misidentifying abusers, publicly castigating them and by doing so causing them harm, all in the name of ‘truth’ and ‘justice’, notions that more often than not are misunderstood or outright redefined.

  68. ( |o )====::: says:

    Jim Jr,
    Stop being theoretical and obtuse. This isn’t ever an issue of possible misidentification. Those who have been abused don’t mix up who they suffered under and the specifics in this story are not confused.

    Paul Grenier has testified that he got a repeated close up “look”, touch, interaction, and encounter. Alex Grenier has repeated his testimony that he was physically abused, struck, locked in a closet, and it wasn’t the abuser’s doppelgänger who did it.

    The marketplace is simple, people are learning that there is a supposed authority figure who spends his time telling people how to live biblically while in practice his family is in a shambles.

    Now that the public at large is learning of the preaching vs practice disconnect the marketplace is responding.

    Turning this around, isn’t the pastor in direct and clear violation of the scriptural injunction that he not sue another professing believer, or are you going to play a technicality and label the defendants “unbelievers”?

  69. Michael says:

    I’ll be speaking to the biblical issue of the lawsuit in about …10 minutes.

  70. Jim Jr. says:

    ” the specifics in this story are not confused.”
    I’ll respectfully disagree with you on this point and leave it at that. If you and I don’t accept the same standards of evidence, then no agreement between us is possible. Unless we turned our discussion to standards of evidence.
    It’s a good thing there are courts. Paul had no problem appealing to his status as a Roman citizen, and Paul had no problem appearing before a Roman tribunal. Neither did Jesus.
    Have a nice day.

  71. Jim Jr. says:

    Here’s precisely the problem.
    “Alex Grenier has repeated his testimony that he was…locked in a closet”
    Alex has never claimed this.

  72. Alex says:

    Geoff was imprisoned in the small coat closet. Saw it with my own eyes, so did Paul and Geoff fully remembers it. BG had the house remodeled and got rid of that small coat closet. He used that to try and confuse some former CCV employees by saying, “look there’s not closet!”

  73. Alex says:

    The court documents have verifiable facts and much corroborated testimonies, including a confession by BG to his Board of punching Geoff in the face. Even Greg Dowds who gave a Declaration in support of BG had to acknowledge this fact.

    Do your homework, the information is in the public record, in the court papers, it is also all laid out at

    This is not a difficult matter to make a informed decisions regarding. There is a ton of evidence and testimonies.

    There will always be those who could see BG on video doing the stuff who would say the film was doctored, there is no convincing a small core group, no problem. The vast majority, we are confident, when they see the stuff laid out in its entirety, see a clear Problem.

  74. Alex says:

    Scripture calls us to “judge” these matters. Scripture calls us to “expose” “warn” “publicly rebuke” when matters like these occur in Leadership and when there is no confession and repentance.

    Fundamentalists are their own worst enemy and their own worst argument against Fundamentalist Christianity.

    In one breath, “Burn all the homos at the stake!”

    In another breath, “Well, we just can’t judge these matters and we have no responsibility in these matters and the Biblical Qualifications, well those are just suggestions and not actionable” etc.

    I am in a Group now of PK’s who have been abused and who have lived with the duplicity and hypocrisy. Most of them are atheists/agnostics now. It is heart-breaking. If it weren’t for the Grace of God, I’d have taken that leap myself.

    The Evangelical Church has a major Problem and is in severe lying and Denial. The “fruit” of it is bad, it’s often hidden and denied, but it is rotten and it’s there no matter how much perfume CC and others try to spray on it, no matter how much they Deny it and try to hide it.

    It’s only going to get worse unless there is serious repentance. Repentance starts with being honest.

  75. Alex says:

    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    That up there is from the supposed “inerrant, infallible, perfect, inspired Word of God” and it is supposedly penned by Paul the Apostle, who is like #2 to Jesus Christ Himself.

    Yet it means nothing in practice in the ‘church’…at least in CC and many other similar constructs. It speaks loudly. The actions and practices speak louder than the sham words.

    If the devil is the father of lies…then the devil has children inside and outside the church and even in us. Again, the devil inside. Man’s depravity does not stop at the church doors. Man’s depravity is everywhere and has no boundaries.

  76. Alex says:

    Like me or hate me, like it or not, God has given me a Platform to speak truth regarding these matters. The Platform will only get larger as time goes on and as the churches like CC and other similar constructs dig in and harden. God has an uncanny way of dealing with things and using and empowering unlikely people like myself, Michael and others.

    My challenge is to those who read here who still have hope that a difference in these church abuse matters can be made. YOU CAN make a difference. You do have a voice. You are as “anointed” as the next believer. You are doing God’s work when you speak the truth regarding these issues. Don’t buy into defeatism. Speak out, speak loudly and don’t take no for an answer. The stuff is wrong, it shouldn’t be tolerated. If you are compelled, go out and make a difference.

  77. dmw says:

    from my corner —-

    the women’s ministry is a group, I asked them to form a group of women to help, they will not help .. Not sure what next step I can take. I guess I could dress in drag and go form a group

  78. ( |o )====::: says:

    Only if you provide pictures!

  79. ( |o )====::: says:

    Good stuff.
    Gotta check back later to see how Jim Jr addresses our objections.
    All I pray is that he or those he loves are spared abuse and that he thinks and comes to a more humane conclusion.

    All, check out Michael’s latest link which addresses the subject of lawsuits, if you want to, that is.

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