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  1. Nonnie says:

    I shared last week about my mom being diagnosed with breast cancer. Her operation is April 19. Today I was writing our ministry update and shared this story and I wanted to share it with you all as well.

    ” All of our family was shocked to hear this cancer diagnosis, as I am sure everyone is when they hear news like this.
    I think we all live our lives unconsciously thinking it is always someone else. However, news like this causes us to stop and look up, and once again drink in the wonder of His love. After a sigh and maybe some tears, we take the next step in our everyday lives of choosing to trust and rest in the knowledge that God is on the throne.

    My mother loves Jesus and we all know that her life and the number of her days are in our loving God’s hands.
    Psalm 139:15-17

    On May 2 my Mom and Dad will celebrate their 62nd wedding anniversary. Over the years I have shared in my testimony of how my parents’ marriage was very rocky for many years. They were divorced once and then remarried and were separated a few times. My mother came to Christ back in the early 1970’s and prayed for her entire family. One by one, each one of her children came to Christ and then finally, after over 20 years, her husband came to Jesus. All those pain-filled years of un-forgiveness, bitterness, anger and depression had been brought to the cross of Christ and healed!
    After the heartache of such a tumultuous marriage for so many years, today in their golden years, my parents are celebrating a genuine and gentle love and commitment to one another. It is very precious to behold and we rejoice with them over the wonders of His love being worked out in their lives.

    “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me? Jeremiah 32:27

    There truly is HOPE in Christ!

  2. Em says:

    Nonnie, i just came back from listening to a moving song on Erunner’s link to his blog [In His Time] and in the mood of that song i read your post above – time for me to be still and know that He is God…
    what a wonderful story your mother’s life is…

  3. Sarah says:

    Nonnie…amen.

  4. Rob Murphy says:

    Nonnie – amazing testimony! There is nothing too hard for God. That’s the hardest thing to remember in the middle. Thank you for sharing your heart.

    An aside: Has anyone read “The Loser Letters” by Mary Eberstadt? There’s a review on Amazon, I’d link it, but I have a special ability for messing these things up. I’ve been pointed to it by a couple of acquaintances and two of them are Gospel-hostile. I’ll probably kindle it, but wanted to know how ‘in a hurry’ to be about it. Anyone read this?

  5. Xenia says:

    Yesterday someone expressed disagreement with one of the points I made concerning why many Evangelicals have trouble trusting and respecting their pastors. I had said that many people in the pews think their opinions/ interpretations of the Bible are just as good as the pastor’s.

    Here is an excellent article on this problem, authored by a Reformed scholar. It’s long but it is worth reading:

    http://www.the-highway.com/Sola_Scriptura_Mathison.html

  6. Michael says:

    Rob,

    I haven’t read it…let me know if I should.

  7. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    That was one of the most provocative articles I ever read…he did a book as well.

    Very much worth reading and thinking through…

  8. David (Everstudy) says:

    Is the .com site done and over with, or is it coming back? I just was wondering if I needed to update my favorites.

    Hope everyone is having a great weekend.

  9. Michael says:

    David,

    I’m not sure yet…it was pretty infected…every file had a virus attached.

  10. Sister Christian says:

    Nonnie,

    What a testimony of God at work in the life of your family
    I am awestruck at the sweetness, the genuine, gentle love and commitment that was wrought through so many trials.

    an encouragement to those Moms who continue to pray for the salvation of their family
    not to grow weary,,,

    continued prayers for you and Your Mom

  11. Sister Christian says:

    “…The Lordship Salvation controversy. On one side of the debate were men such as Zane Hodges1 and Charles Ryrie2 who taught:
    a reductionistic doctrine of solafide which absolutized the word “alone” in the phrase “justification by faith alone” and removed it from its overall theological context. Faith was reduced to little more than assent to the truthfulness of certain biblical propositions. Repentance, sanctification, submission to Christ’s Lordship, love, and perseverance were all said to be unnecessary for salvation.”

    That’s a section at the beginning to the link Xenia posted above. ( thanks Xenia)
    although thats not the overall topic of the article

    Its that teaching ( sola fide) that seems to have strong ramifications, when removed from its overall theological context…

  12. Dansk says:

    Great testimony, Nonnie!

  13. Sister Christian says:

    “Perhaps the best way to explain the fundamental problem with the modern Evangelical version of solo scriptura would be through the use of an illustration to which many believers may be able to relate. Almost every Christian who has wrestled with theological questions has encountered the problem of competing interpretations of Scripture.

    If one asks a dispensationalist pastor, for example, why he teaches premillennialism, the answer will be, “Because the Bible teaches premillennialism.” If one asks the conservative Presbyterian pastor across the street why he teaches amillennialism (or postmillennialism), the answer will likely be, “Because that is what the Bible teaches.” Each man will claim that the other is in error, but by what ultimate authority do they typically make such a judgment?

    Each man will claim that he bases his judgment on the authority of the Bible, but since each man’s interpretation is mutually exclusive of the other’s, both interpretations cannot be correct.

    How then do we discern which interpretation is correct?”

    Again from the article Xenia linked above…
    pretty good example, no doubt many can relate to
    By what authority are they using to support their position?

  14. Another Voice says:

    Shame to see the article begin with a horrible distortion of Ryrie’s position (as I showed from a variety of quotes from his book a couple of weeks ago). Just regurgitating someone else’s vomit.

    You don’t just footnote an entire book, defame a scholar by name and his position, and then not give one actual quote that exemplifies your point from that same book.

    Frankly, that stuff right out of the gate really turns me off to whatever else one has to say. I’m sure the Reformed would feel the same way, if I grossly distorted Calvin in my opening paragraph, using my own summations, and then footnoted ‘Institutes’ – how much appetite would one have to keep reading?

  15. Michael says:

    I didn’t see that before…his only footnotes are of whole books.

    Very shoddy scholarship…

  16. Sister Christian says:

    “The fundamental point is that Christ established His Church with a structure of authority that is to be obeyed (Heb. 13:7). Even in the first years of the Church, there were those who were specially appointed to the ministry of the Word (Acts 6:2-4). In his letters to Timothy and Titus, Paul indicates that a special teaching ministry was to continue after his death (cf. 1 Tim. 3:1-7; 2 Tim. 4:2; Titus 8:5-9). The modern Evangelical doctrine of Scripture essentially destroys the real authority of ministers of the Word and the Church as a whole”

    Okay… so would shoddy scholarship discount his points?

    for example the one above…

    as we are speaking on the other thread of respecting those in leadership, those who have been given authority over us, How does that bode in respect to the elders of the early church and early church fathers, what they learned and taught.

    how does that respect in effect relate to how we learn and teach Gods words,
    especially to Pastors today?

    maybe asking how much are Pastors of today to read and study earlier authorities to base their teachings to the congregation of today?

  17. Michael says:

    He makes a number of valid points, but that doesn’t excuse him from the charge.

    The early church had an entirely different cultural and ecclesiastical make up.

    The culture of today despises authority and is suspicious of anyone in a place of authority.

    Our entire view of the church in general and the leadership of it in particular is so skewed it may be beyond repair by anything other than the desperation of intense persecution.

  18. Another Voice says:

    Each man will claim that he bases his judgment on the authority of the Bible, but since each man’s interpretation is mutually exclusive of the other’s, both interpretations cannot be correct.

    How then do we discern which interpretation is correct?”
    —————————————————————————–
    This is where the different means of interpretation come into play. From the perspective of the team I play for (and we are all in the same league so as not to confuse my silly illustration) a large discussion of HOW prophecy is interpreted will usually precede the actual discussion of the premill point of view.

    Does it mean it is the RIGHT way to interpret. No.

    But the reason there are different interpretations to a lot of issues, is due to the principals used. Not just for prophecy either. (i.e John 6 as to the significance of Communion/The Eucharist)

  19. This week I lost 2 dear friends on the same day, Packer and Piper are being vilified by Pharisees and the NY Mets have lost two 1 run ballgames because the bullpen is lousy and its 2am and I still have no clue what I will preach tomorrow.

    In the words of my late friend Michael Spencer “this week was crap”/

    Phil

  20. Sarah says:

    Phil…I will be praying then that God will show up in the night watches and speak deep to your spirit..and that you will have a word that will refresh your congregation who may be in the same situation you are in.

  21. Em says:

    “In the words of my late friend Michael Spencer “this week was crap” … sounds like the opening sentence of a very good sermon…

  22. Lutheran says:

    Xenia,

    Good link and discussion topic.

    Martin Luther said that Scripture was like a “wax nose” — meaning, it’s easy for someone to twist Scripture to make it say what we want. That’s the danger of ‘private interpretation.’

    And speaking of private interpretation…I was thinking about this with regard to the other day, when I heard the Mormon Glenn Beck on his radio show reading from Ephesians 6 — he was reading the part about how we don’t wrestle with principalities and powers, but with rulers in high places — and of course, you know what that master exegete Glenn was referring to…

    It was downright creepy. .

    Within the Church, we do indeed need sound expositors armed with solid hermeneutical principles, and informed by those who have come before us. Nothing comes from nothing.

  23. filbertz says:

    crap is relative.

  24. Em says:

    sola scriptura v solo scriptura hmmm…solo? i don’t know what is the right response from a layman to dogmatic teaching of traditions… i know that i’d be a fool to either accept or reject teaching about my Lord on the basis of how i *feel* about the teacher. Yet, if it’s not “in the Book,” or from it, for me it’s just a data point, a curiosity, perhaps. But over the years some things presented seem as solid as gold, easy to acceept and others are points to ponder. Tthe latter get stacked over to the side and i wait (they’re non-essentials unless i want to join up with the fellowship adhering to them) – further down the line, those teachings either get lost in the stack or they line up as i gain more spiritual ground…
    God the Holy Spirit is so able to lead us if we just don’t expect that person up there in front to be more than God intends him to be – or less… and ourselves, the same.

    if we’re not seriously praying for him or her, then we’re sinning – pure and simple

  25. Em says:

    Lutheran, my radio was on and i caught the Glenn B “teaching” also,… wonderful ideals and totally off the mark with regard to the correct interpretation of the chapter… sobering

  26. Em says:

    “crap is relative” anyone who owns a dog knows the truth of that observation 😉

    that said, maybe a good rule of thumb is to chose your friends from those who put that label on the same things you do … dunno 🙄

  27. filbertz says:

    crap is not only relative, it is both figurative and literal. 😉

  28. Erunner says:

    Nonnie, That is a touching story about your parents. I have always hoped to enter into golden years with Belinda as we sit on the porch and are surrounded by family. Been married 33 years and I feel like a youngster!

  29. Erunner says:

    This is open blogging. If I am to receive a massage from a certified female therapist what guidelines do I follow. Ladies…. what would make you uncomfortable if this was your husband and the massage wasn’t for an injury but simply elective? What would you expect from your husband? I can not express how much I enjoy a good massage. Belinda’s arthritis does not allow her to massage my back or she might be able to do it.

    Not the most pressing issue in the world but we’re trying to come to some arrangement on what is comfortable for both of us. Thanks.

  30. London says:

    nice ASBO

  31. Em says:

    Erunner, ” Ladies…. what would make you uncomfortable if this was your husband”

    the blog is strangely silent … 😯

  32. Erunner says:

    Em, I know how to clear a room! :mrgreen:

  33. BrianD says:

    Too silent…

    I’ve been reading old Boars’ Head Tavern posts from a year ago. Makes it like iMonk is still with us. Amazing what can happen in the course of a year.

    Someone tweeted that the caretakers are talking about what to do with the BHT.

  34. Another Voice says:

    I’ll ask you something Brian. How do you feel about FIVE Kentucky players all declaring for the NBA?

    Kind of rough…

  35. centorian says:

    I seem to remember a time when college athletes actually got an education and graduated from college… I still wonder why we as a culture place such value on athletics.

  36. jlo says:

    Erunner, I would not have a problem with it myself, but how does Belinda feel about it. As far as guide lines, only get a massage at a reputable spa or therapy office. If your bride is uncomfortable why not try a couple’s massage, or go to one of those places in the mall where they give a back massage with your shirt on, or you could always have a massage therapist come to your home while your wife was there.

  37. Sarah says:

    Erunner…one idea that we’ve done is have the person come to your home. When Steve and I were on vacation in Santa Barbara and our oldest was a little one, Steve got a massage as a gift from me. The woman was through the hotel, came to our room and I just stayed in the bathroom giving Zach a bath. Made Steve more comfortable because I was right there, even though slightly isolated. We have a few friends who are missionaries and do therapeutic massage when they are home…they come to your home. Just a thought.

  38. Sarah says:

    Just noticed Jlo had the same thought!! I was typing when she posted….there ya go…confirmation 😉

  39. Another Voice says:

    I have no problem with someone going to the NBA out of High School if good enough. Like Lebron James did. Other sports like golf and tennis have teenagers that tour and play professionally.

    This new NBA rule from the last few years that you have to play one year in college is ridiculous. You know they aren’t going to class in the Spring, since they are getting ready to split. So all it takes is a few classes and pulling D’s in one semester to make sure you are eligible, and that is it.

    They just take up scholarships of kids who could really benefit and would use it to get an education too.

  40. Erunner says:

    Jlo and Sarah, Thank you. Here’s the rub! 🙂 I just found out our daughter-in0laws mom is a massage therapist. She will come to the home and do it while Belinda is present. How does this impact your opinion?

  41. Sarah says:

    Honestly…I’d probably prefer it be someone you don’t know or have any kind of personal interaction with. Just my preference, but I’d trust Belinda’s judgment.

  42. BrianD says:

    I’m jaded. College basketball is practically minor league basketball that people will actually watch.
    We all knew Wall and Cousins were headed to the NBA after one year, and probably Patterson as well. Orton and Bledsoe were not expected to turn pro so early.
    Courtwise, it’d be great to keep all five. Orton would especially benefit from coming back. Calipari’s said to be working on another monster recruiting class, so everyone’s already looking ahead.

  43. Erunner says:

    Sarah, I know…. but 20 bucks for 30-45 minutes is a great deal!! I was wondering if Belinda was over reacting and I’m a block head! Thanks.

  44. Erunner says:

    I recall when Lew Alcindor couldn’t play varsity at UCLA until his sophomore year. I think some of these kids hurt themselves by coming out early but then the money is so hard to resist. They also lose out on an education to give them something to fall back on if necessary.

  45. Sarah says:

    Don’t you know we wives never over react?! 🙂 I’d pay a little more…you wouldn’t enjoy the massage if you knew Belinda wasn’t comfortable.

  46. BrianD says:

    “They just take up scholarships of kids who could really benefit and would use it to get an education too.”

    You’re an idealist…winning the NCAA title is the end game of major college athletics.

    I’m sure that there are many people who would say “rejoice in the journey, look at Butler, they lost but what a successful season they had! And with players who are true epitomes of what collegiate athletics should be all about.”

    Meanwhile, many other Butler fans would take a John Wall, Greg Oden, or a Derrick Rose in a second if it put them over the top in winning a title.

  47. Another Voice says:

    It’s like rent-a-player. Ever since Carmelo was one and done with Syracuse, the big schools are rolling the dice for a national title.

    I think this also will encourage rule violations. When the next Lebron is forced to pick a school for one year, how does he get recruited? Seriously. Can any coach really talk about the educational opportunity, the family atmosphere etc.

  48. BrianD says:

    Hey, everybody! Pay $40 a year to be a friend of Tim Challies’ blog!!!!

    http://friends.challies.com/?a=4&b=1

    By the way. You can be a friend of this blog for free 🙂

  49. jlo says:

    what Sarah said. 🙂

  50. BrianD says:

    Education doesn’t (usually) matter with these guys. Have you ever seen a baseball player who would turn down a promotion to the majors, to some place like Pittsburgh or Tampa Bay, so he could be a Modesto Nut and finish his degree?

  51. Erunner says:

    Sarah, Don’t wag your finger at me! 🙂

    Brian, I loved Butler’s story and so wished that last shot hadn’t missed. The thing is with them their players probably have no real chance at an NBA career. What you had there was a system that was excellent and the kids milked it to the verge of winning it all.

    They’re scouting kids in junior high now and I believe a young quarterback is lined up with USC. It’s a shame what is happening to Kentucky. The days of players graduating and then going pro are sadly over. I’ll settle for reruns of Hoosiers! 🙂

  52. Another Voice says:

    The last two titles, North Caroline and Duke, were won with senior-heavy teams.

    Like you said, winning the title is the bottom line.

    And remember my main point is there is no reason for the NBA to make these kids go to school for a year.

  53. Another Voice says:

    Baseball allows you to go pro right out of high school.

  54. BrianD says:

    Kentucky will be fine. I do not believe major college athletics could turn back the clock if they wanted to.
    Billy Gillispie did what Kiffin does in recruiting 8th graders. Bizarre.
    Until you think about eight year old gymnasts. And swimmers.

  55. Erunner says:

    I used to dream of playing center field for the Dodgers. I wonder if in Heaven God will allow us to have a holadeck type thing as they did on Star Trek so we can be world series heroes… with the utmost humility! 🙂

  56. BrianD says:

    Google Taj McDavid.

  57. Another Voice says:

    Brian, do you have even a little concern about Calipari or do you think he has gotten a bum rap over the years?

  58. BrianD says:

    Erunner heaven is pearly gates, golden streets, chubby babies and endless sermons with no marriage nor food. Didn’t you learn anything from Christian radio?

  59. Another Voice says:

    What’s the point about Taj? He got drafted 2nd round and didn’t make a team. Happens all the time. If we were good enough in the semi-pro league, he would get a contract.

    A guy like that would have declared after his freshman year anyway. Same story.

    Now, if the NBA would do like the NFL, and make the kids have three years in college, that would be a different story.

    Either let them go pro now, or wait 3 years, but this one year thing is Mickey Mouse. Not sure what Stern is thinking.

  60. BrianD says:

    AV I honestly think he’s no worse than the others contrary to what ESPN may imply.

  61. Erunner says:

    Brian, You have given me hope! You can be the pitcher! 🙂

  62. Erunner says:

    Lifted from a story about Taj McDavid.

    “As I look at the list of the 45 players who have left high school to declare for the NBA Draft since 1995, I can see just just six players that I would classify as stars — Bryant, Garnett, James, Tracy McGrady, Amare Stoudamire and Dwight Howard. Most are journeymen types, such are former Jazz prep draftee DeShawn Stevenson.”

  63. BrianD says:

    I want to continue this talk but I have to be at church in 8 hours…so I’ll have to cut this off now. See you tomorrow AV.

  64. Another Voice says:

    DeShawn Stevenson has made 19 million dollars in his career to date.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stevede01.html

  65. Another Voice says:

    Good night Brian.

  66. Erunner says:

    AV, Not bad for a journeyman and that is why they make the jump. Gonna watch “Mozart And The Whale.” God bless.

  67. Bob says:

    Good discussion about the link. What I find from the link is it fails to do what I believe it intended to do, support the traditional orthodox churches while demeaning the individual believer who rebels against their claimed authority as The Church.

    A couple of points from the article I would like to throw some additional confusion to:

    The biblical Canon was not an event but a process which culminated with the Council of Trent (if my memory serves me correctly). Surprisingly this happened approximately 1500 years after Jesus’ and the last apostles death. Additionally the fact is the OT was canonized by the Jewish people in its entirety prior to the birth of Jesus Christ. The major issue of the Council was which of the NT authors and writings would be considered the recorded word of God and was probably designed more as a response to Martin Luther than a clarification of what was canonical. For a truly authoritative and relatively exhaustive argument read FF Bruce on the Subject.

    The process of canonization and the years it took with all the varieties of different “canons” and opinion of what was valid apostolic succession and authority says to me; this article just points to an issue which has never been resolved since the church left its Jewish roots.

    So do the traditional denominations and orthodoxy hold exclusive apostolic succession and therefore correct interpretation of the scriptures, both OT and NT? In my opinion I believe history actually reveals the answer is no and that the struggle often had less to do with the correction of true heresy but with the establishment of human control and power.

    There you go a fragment of an idea and an opinion. you may fire away at will.

  68. Bob says:

    I think the real issue (church and pastoral authority) is all of us “believers/Christians/followers of Jesus/Christ” live in a cushy world where the “church” has little if any power over ones daily lives. There are no political or business reasons to join a church today as there were when the major denominations held such power in the community. There are even some churches which do not even have “membership.”

    Probably in today’s secular, and maybe even religious culture, to really be a disciple of Jesus Christ is an oddity more similar to the second century when it was still a growing cult. To stand up for the teachings and associated life of being a believer just isn’t normal today. If you don’t think so I wonder how many of us are going to (or have already) lie on our tax return this coming week (even a little)? Hey no one will know, right?

  69. brian says:

    Thinking on the “Lordship salvation” article, from my early Christian experience, honestly no one was saved, no matter how hard you tried, and you better try, you had failed, in some thought, dream, emotional expression etc. Somewhere Satan had deceived you and you were lost, at that very moment lost for all eternity. You basically dreaded even looking at your life knowing you would never be good enough. You better be good enough. Often the Sola’s were paraded around but no one actually bought into that “free grace” stuff. You were measured on your ability to defend the apologetic, nothing more. I never measured up, never will, grew tired of trying.

  70. Believe says:

    For me, the only time I experience the presence and work of the Holy Spirit in my life is “Lordship Salvation”…when I am actively denying self and surrendering to Jesus as Lord.

    When I don’t, I am a real jerk.

    When I do, the fruits of the Spirit are evident.

    So, I can wrestle with the Theological and Doctrinal implications until the day I physically die…however, there’s no denying the reality in of what I have (and do) experience in my life.

  71. Nene says:

    Where is the Lordship Salvation article brian?

  72. Lutheran says:

    The biblical Canon was not an event but a process which culminated with the Council of Trent (if my memory serves me correctly).

    Bob,
    The Council of Trent was held in the 16th Century.

    Yes, of course there was some process involved in selecting the biblical canon. But Constantlne and the Council of Nicea solidified it.

    “The process of canonization continued during the era of the Christian Empire. Those communities that became known as orthodox came close to agreeing on an authoritative collection of scriptures. As far as we know, Athanasius was the first person to name in 367 the 27 books of the New Testament accepted by most Christian groups today.”

    http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/bible/cea.stm

  73. BrianD says:

    To AV:

    I don’t contest that high school kids should either stay in college for three years, or get an opportunity to turn pro right out of high school. My point re: Taj McDavid was that for every Kobe or LeBron, there are many more Taj McDavids, who perhaps would have benefited from some exposure to college. But then again some kids will not go to college no matter what.

    Colleges treating players like human beings and encouraging them in building a life outside of basketball would be very helpful. But as long as it serves as the developmental league for the NBA (does the NBA Developmental League really develop anybody?), and there’s $$$ to be made, well, the players will be commodities to be used and thrown away at will.

  74. brian says:

    It was on another blog which was connected to an article posted here, sorry about that I will try to find the url.

  75. Bob says:

    Lutheran:

    If you read my post your correction was not needed “The Council of Trent was held in the 16th Century.”
    “approximately 1500 years after Jesus’ “pproximately 1500 years after Jesus’ and the last apostles death.” Correct me to the exact date if you need to please.

    The main purpose of the Council of Nicene (325 please make sure I am correct) was the heresy of Arian. If you check with any Roman Catholic Source The actual canon of scripture was not part of the Nicene council but the Canon of Law.

    We do have to be accurate here on PP or people get mad.

  76. Bob says:

    Lutheran:

    sorry typo:

    “approximately 1500 years after Jesus’ “pproximately 1500 years after Jesus’ and the last apostles death.” Correct me to the exact date if you need to please.

    Should have said:

    The Council of Trent was 1551 and in my simple math “approximately 1500 years after Jesus’ and the last apostles death” is not a bad statement. Correct me to the exact date if you need to please.

    There you go.

  77. Bob says:

    Lutheran:

    I’ll be more accurate Council of Trent 1545-1563 they met 25 times in this period.

    I just decided to clarify.

  78. Bob says:

    For more depth on the Council of Nicene and the canon, the fixing of the date of Easter was one of the primary subjects being addressed. In one of the texts addressing this issue, according to FF Bruce, the scriptures described as”divine” by Arthanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, in his 39th letter was a side issue. He felt there were those who were adding texts which were not from those who, “were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered to the fathers.”

    Because of this he, the Bishop, affirmed the OT texts as already established by the Hebrews and then listed the books of the NT and included the Didache and the Shepherd.

    My point is/was this, biblical canon, was not the Official intent of the Nicene Council but was Officially recognized as such during the Trent council 1200 years later. Which again was more a response to the Protestant, read here Luther, movement and its ramifications.

    But I was addressing the issue of church authority and the fact the canon of scripture was caught through time and was not an event which a denomination can take credit for.

    Sorry for the sarcasm. My feelings about denomination-ism and having faith in a group over the Lord are very strong.

  79. Em says:

    speaking of Easter… my prayer is that we’d all get on the bandwagon and call it “Resurrection Sunday” 🙂 🙂 just sayin’…

  80. Xenia says:

    Trent only concerns the Roman Catholics. In the East, we are satisfied with St. Athanasius’s list of New Testament books and the complete version of the Septuagint, which is the version of the OT the Orthodox use. Protestants have the version of the scriptures approved by Martin Luther.

  81. Bob says:

    Xenia:

    By stating there are at minimum (from those you mention) three different basic canons of scripture even today you support my basic thesis about no one denomination holds the position on the authoritative succession of apostolic and scripture.

    If you go back and read Athanasiu’s position on Easter and why it should be changed from trailing and being associated with Jewish Passover you may be shocked. Of course you may not be shocked. Pretty ugly words about the Jewish roots of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  82. Lutheran says:

    Bob,

    I wasn’t arguing about the exact dates of Trent.

    But the biblical canon was established back in the 4th Century. And there were ‘tests’ the early church used to decide what was in and what wasn’t. Yes, I’m aware there were some discrepancies, such as whether to include the Apocrypha.

    ”Sorry for the sarcasm. My feelings about denomination-ism and having faith in a group over the Lord are very strong.’

    By pitting “faith in a group” versus “having faith in the Lord” already shows your bias. Is it possible, Bob, to have faith in the Lord and still subscribe to a group with a set of confessional beliefs that you believe best support what God’s Word teaches?

    It’s fine that you have strong feelings about denominations. I have strong feelings, too. Why come on a board like this if you don’t want to do some give and take? That’s what this place is for — not for trying to win a theological fight.

    Just an observation and a suggestion from someone who’s been on here well over 5 years: If you can’t show mutual respect for positions other than yours, and if you don’t care to learn from others with different POVs, you’ll be largely talking to yourself on here.

    Have a great day.

  83. Lutheran says:

    2 new things with the Issues, Etc.” radio broadcast:

    They have a 2-hour rebroadcast of interviews with Michael Spencer available.

    http://issuesetc.org/archive/page/2/

    And this Wednesday, “Issues, Etc.” is going to do a live 24-hour radio broadcast.

    “Issues, Etc. 24” begins at 4:00 p.m. CST on Wednesday, April 14 and runs until 4:00 p.m. CST on Thursday, April 15.

    During those 24 hours, Issues, Etc. will bring live in-depth Bible studies on the books of Leviticus, Psalms, Proverbs, Mark, John, Romans and more.

    The guests for “Issues, Etc. 24” include Dr. John Kleinig, Pastor Bill Cwirla, Dr. Peter Scaer, Dr. Andrew Steinmann and others.

    You can listen live at http://www.issuesetc.org.

  84. Bob says:

    Lutheran:

    “By pitting “faith in a group” versus “having faith in the Lord” already shows your bias.”

    Yes I am showing my bias, but what’s the purpose of any of these discussions/arguments if we don’t speak from our bias? In another thread the subject of evolution has come up which is highly affected by our bias and brings with it very strong feelings and emotions. So is it any more wrong for me to write strongly about how I feel about denominations than it is for people to speak about evolution or even Calvary Chapel leadership principals? How is it disrespectful when many who feel strong about their denominations speak equally disrespectful about CC or those who may believe in evolution, old/young earth or even their eschatology bent?

    I’m sorry you feel I disrespect you and your denomination, but should I stay quite about the light I see the evidence illuminate?

    Oh and I do believe God commands us to gather together and worship, live and teach together. I never (almost never to be true) miss a Sunday, what a blessing to share in the Love of Jesus Christ and God’s amazing grace with others.

  85. Lutheran says:

    Bob,

    Why so defensive?

    I never said a bias is bad — I just noticed it. I’m biased, too. Big deal.

    You seem to see everything in terms of ‘right and wrong.’ Why not flex a little so we can learn from each other?

    You never did answer my question in my 4th paragraph. What’s your take?

    Where did I ever say you disrespect me and my denomination? Don’t think I did. Be careful of assuming things that the other didn’t say.

    ‘Oh and I do believe God commands us to gather together and worship, live and teach together. I never (almost never to be true) miss a Sunday, what a blessing to share in the Love of Jesus Christ and God’s amazing grace with others.’

    Praise the Lord!

  86. Xenia says:

    I quiet listening to Issues, Etc. after their wretched series on Eastern Orthodoxy.

  87. Bob says:

    Lutheran:

    “Bob, to have faith in the Lord and still subscribe to a group with a set of confessional beliefs that you believe best support what God’s Word teaches? ”

    I thought that was more a rhetorical question than one seeking an answer.

    My answer since you have asked twice:

    Yes I believe it is OK to belong to a group with a common confession of faith. What I find wrong is when being a member of that group or the group itself presents itself as correct over all other groups to the point where they begin to question the salvation of any outside their group. In Christendom I find this kind of group behavior is very consistent and is not limited to the orthodox denominations. To be quite honest Xenia’s comments consistently cross this line with a certain “disciple” not far behind.

    The older I get and the fuller my study of scripture and church history (yes I do it every single day, get older and study) the more I find myself distancing from any confession other than “Jesus Christ is Lord.” Do I have doctrinal positions and beliefs? Sure I do but with the exception of the simple confession I will not say a person is not in the house because he or she does not agree with me or I with them.

    I hope this clarifies my bias, I reject any church which says if I don’t belong and agree with their confessions my salvation is doubtful at best. Remember Paul called it a big house in 2 Tim and I believe people will be surprised by who is and who isn’t there when the end of this age arrives.

    Well I’m just a newcomer who picked up on the site while surfing along the internet highway and am just an outsider. I will yield to you who are older in the faith and the Phoenix Preacher. I mean this when I say thank you Lutheran for taking the time to root me out.

    Jesus is Lord!

  88. Xenia says:

    Well Bob, I have never questioned the salvation of anyone outside the EO Church.

    However, most of the radio preachers on the various lists people say they listen to over on the podcast thread probably do doubt my salvation.

  89. Lutheran says:

    Bob,

    Thanks for clarifying —

    God bless your day!

  90. Lutheran says:

    Bob,

    Just to clarify —

    I agree with you. Any branch of the church that says their church is the only way to salvation is in error. It’s ugly and not consistent with the spirit of Jesus.

    Having said that, there’s not a thing wrong with affilieting yourself with a branch of the church that you believe best coinfesses the faith once delivered to the saints.

    Even Baptist churches do that — look at the SBC, BGC, etc., etc.

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