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299 Responses

  1. Rapturesaint says:

    As a born again Christian, I believe deeply in my spirit, that God Almighty won the spiritual battle in 2016 and placed Donald Trump in the White House. He is God’s anointed. President Donald Trump has done more for religious rights than any other U.S. President, including Ronald Reagan, in U.S. history. All U.S. Presidents say they will move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, but never did. President Trump said he will do it, and DID IT!. He is the protector for the human unborn babies from liberal Democrats who want to murder them.
    Yet, I am very confused to hear some evangelical Christians will not vote for President Donald Trump in November 2020 election. They say he is a racist, he has a filthy mouth, he is not a Christian and the list go on. But they “fail to understand” this November 2020 election, were voting either to have the choice of having the liberal Democrat take a hold of America and convert it to socialism. Joe biden says Christians should be put on “The Terror list.” Even Hillary Clinton tried to convince some prolifers to change their belief and support murdering the human unborn.
    No matter what you have against President Donald Trump, He want to keep America and not End it as the Liberal Democrats wants it to end. Your not voting for an individual, your voting to protect our Ameircan freedom and Christianity from the liberal Democratic, leaning socialist party of America.
    I am proud to be an American to have Donald Trump as my President I ask all Christians in Christ Jesus to continue to pray for our President.

  2. Xenia says:

    Your not voting for an individual, your voting to protect our Ameircan freedom and Christianity from the liberal Democratic, leaning socialist party of America.<<<

    Yep, I have come to believe this is true.

  3. Michael says:

    I cannot and will not vote for Trump…my conscience will not allow it.
    I do not know yet if i can vote for the other.

    From here on out any suggestion that this president has anything to do with God will be dealt with mercilessly.

  4. Michael says:

    True Christianity is utterly counter cultural and in opposition to the ways of the world.
    The kingdom of God is not dependent on party politics or the U.S.

  5. directambiguity says:

    I couldn’t vote for Obama or Romney, and I feel good about that decision.

  6. Jean says:

    “President Donald Trump has done more for religious rights than any other U.S. President, including Ronald Reagan, in U.S. history.” What has he done? I haven’t experienced any change in my religious rights.

    “All U.S. Presidents say they will move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, but never did. President Trump said he will do it, and DID IT!” How does this benefit Christianity? Not all Presidents said they would do that anyway. What makes you think moving the embassy was in the best interests of America?

    “He is the protector for the human unborn babies from liberal Democrats who want to murder them.” What has he done to protect them? Which Democrat is trying to murder them?

    Has Biden ever promised or even mused about trying to convert America to socialism?

  7. Michael says:

    These discussions about “morality” sicken me and disgust me.
    The God I worship cares as much about the migrant and the immigrant as much as the unborn, about holiness and grace more than economic systems, and is with all those on the margins that both parties ignore.

  8. Xenia says:

    I cannot and will not vote for Trump…my conscience will not allow it.
    I do not know yet if i can vote for the other.<<<

    I completely understand. It was my own view for quite some time. It is an honorable opinion, IMO.

  9. Michael says:

    It has become repulsive to me that the faith once delivered has been subsumed by party politics and discussions about the kingdom of God are relegated to things inconsequential and irrelevant.

  10. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    “True Christianity is utterly counter cultural and in opposition to the ways of the world.
    The kingdom of God is not dependent on party politics or the U.S.”

    The Early Church understood the preeminence of the Gospel narrative with its complete reversal of secular values… we, in the present time, do not.

  11. Dan from Georgia says:

    I didn’t vote in 2016 for the following reason(s): 1. Didn’t register in time, which make #2 moot, but if not moot, my conscience couldn’t vote for either of the two candidates.

    And also I don’t necessarily buy into the fear that if so-and-so (Democrat) gets into office, they are going to round up all the Christians and put them away…a charge that is made every election cycle. A you darn well know it.

    I still haven’t decided whom to vote for, or whether to vote at all, but that is between me and my Lord, not between me and Franklin Graham, John Macarthur, or anyone here. Sure I will pray for Donald Trump and whoever wins next round, but that absolutely doesn’t mean I have to crown them anointed.

    By the way…conservative judges galore and abortion is still legal. Gays and lesbians still marry. I didn’t vote for a president to fulfill someone’s idea of biblical prophecy.

    Done ranting.

  12. Em says:

    Is the question, is Donald Trump a Christian? … Or is it that we have now a President who shows respect for the Faith? I do not doubt that the Democrats have been taken over by a group who really want to see our Republic destroyed. Not sure just how lucid Biden is.. An electable Trojan Horse? Possible, dunno….
    I heard that the present Pope is pushing to make Jesus’s mother co-Redeemer. We who know who to pray to and in whose Name to do so need to pray.

    There a British atheist who says that this world is a much better place because of what the Christians have contributed.
    I am sorry that I can’t recall which atheist… 😇. Maybe that is Trump’s take…. Dunno ? ? !

    Now I’m done.. God keep

  13. Michael says:

    Dan,

    The issues that concern Christians can only be addressed by the Holy Spirit and an un compromised church.
    The entity holding back apostasy is not the President, it is the Holy Spirit…but I sense He is weary of our compromise…

  14. Dan from Georgia says:

    Em, that is interesting about the British fellow saying that (if its true). Overall I don’t expect my president to be faultless, but a good leader and manager of the country.

    Michael, I agree with those statements. It’s saddens me to see so many Christian “leaders” using fear and shame on believers in an almost abusive way (your not a Christian if _______).

    Not a Christian church historian here, so my comment may not be true, but aren’t most genuine revivals more like reformations and cleansing of the Holy Spirirt?

  15. Dan from Georgia says:

    Meaning..not just a show of people getting healed, speaking in tongues, etc, but a cleansing and, like you said, confronting compromise in the church, for one thing.

  16. Xenia says:

    Do I think Trump is “God’s anointed?”

    Well, yes and no. There’s a verse somewhere in the Old Testament about God raising up kings and throwing them down, so all rulers rule because God is allowing them to rule. If Biden wins, he’s just as anointed as Trump because both came into power with God’s permission. I think our democracy no longer works, if it ever did. Originally, it only “worked” because only a certain class of people were allowed to vote: rich white guys. With this in play, we got slavery, so I wouldn’t say democracy worked for all God’s children in America, just the rich white guys. So more and more people were permitted to vote, which is good, except people are voting for their self-interests these days, with no concern for the good of the nation. So the pro-homosexual people and drug users and abortion-affirmers vote for the party that will support their pet sins. Both sides have pet sins (greed, for instance) that they want promoted. Some folks, like RaptureSaint up at the top, would like to hold back the tide of evil. I do not think we can hold back the tide of evil; I think God is going to let it prevail, because of our sins. But we all have to follow our consciences which tell different Christians different things, looks like. We have to do the best we can and live with God and with ourselves.

  17. Michael says:

    Dan,
    Duane can address this better than myself, but the revivals I’ve studied are steeped in repentance and a cry for holiness.
    We don’t hear much about those things…

  18. Jim says:

    I’d check the IP of the OP. I’m not too sure…

  19. Michael says:

    Holiness by definition indicates separation…not just from obvious sins, but as persons within a separate community. We are meant to be a nation within a nation, not in bed with the national systems.

  20. Duane Arnold says:

    Dan

    That’s a really interesting question. In the pre-Constantinian era, The expansion of the Church arose out of its persecution and its reaction to persecution. In the era of late antiquity, the growth of the Church took place on the fringes – Gaul, England, Ireland, the Balkans, etc. Growth had little to do with court politics. In the medieval period, reformation and revival were very much linked to the monastic movements – Benedictine, Franciscan, Cluniac, etc. The “cleansing” of the Reformation era was much more lay oriented (especially the Brethren of the Common Life). In the modern era, I cannot think of a significant revival movement that took place owing to political alliances, unless we were to count the English Civil War and the Puritans… I’ll do some more thinking on this…

  21. Michael says:

    Jim,
    What should I check? Did I miss something?

  22. Xenia says:

    Many people are thinking about the Benedict Option (Rod Dreyer) but it is not practical for most people. And most commune-type communities don’t last very long, or they become cultic. Just on our own over here, we are withdrawing from many things of the world: TV, Hollywood, NPR, local newspaper, popular literature, MSM, Netflix, etc. These won’t make any change in the world but we’ve given up on that. It will help our souls. That’s part of the road to repentance, I think, getting rid of the trash in one’s life. If we are serious about repentance as “a church” (whatever that means here on the blog) then we will have to make some changes in our own lives, not just rant against others.

  23. directambiguity says:

    This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

  24. directambiguity says:

    Maybe that’s the verse Xenia was thinking of.
    Dan 4:17

  25. Xenia says:

    Just living your life by the Church calendar takes you out of the world to a certain extent. It’s Friday today, a day for veggie burgers. And why is that? Because Christ was crucified on Friday and we think about this as we “suffer” (just a wee bit) in our eating for the day. Everyday has something to keep the Christian in touch with the Church and the Heavenly Realm and separated from the world. We can be as separated from the world as we want to be. It’s up to us.

  26. Xenia says:

    DA, I had a different verse in mind, but the verse in Daniel works just as well, if not better.

  27. Xenia says:

    If you partake of most forms of broadcast entertainment, you are mainlining the world.

  28. jtk says:

    i’ve never seen hearts as open, tender and lonely as I’m seeing on campus in the past 3 weeks. After 25+ years in ministry.

    I commented that we may be due for a pandemic or another 9/11 because students hearts were so hardened, unlike any I’d seen.

    I’m seeing the loneliness, but studies show 25% of those 18-24 have considered suicide in the last month.

    We need, and in many ways could be ready for, revival

  29. Michael says:

    I’m not nearly as concerned about sins as I am about identity.

  30. Em says:

    “We are meant to be a nation within a nation, not in bed with the national systems.”
    “I’m not nearly as concerned about sins as I am about identity.”

    worth repeating AND thinking on…..

    Xenia may be right about closing off contact with secular input… We lived without TV for many years (but we did have internet…). Today, up here in the mountains, i depend on TV to keep me in the loop on the world’s happenings… I want to be ready when the Chinese invade… think they already have, though LOL

  31. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Duane!

  32. Bride of Christ says:

    I don’t believe that either political party is “pro homosexual” or “pro abortion” any more than I believe BOTh parties are “pro divorce”. Allowing people to make person decisions about their personal lives is NOT “pro” anything. Republican conservatives condone grace for the divorced, so should we all start saying Republican conservative Christians are “pro divorce” ? Pretty ridiculous, right? Democrats are offering grace to homosexuals and women who have abortiins, nothing else. I would believe that Biden is a real Christian much more than I could believe that Trump is. Just look at the fruit in their lives of nothing else. As far as,respecting Christians – I don’t believe it. Trump believes that soldiers, like my son-in-law, are suckers and losers for enlisting in the Army in order to defend U.S. and our American way of life. Four close people have testified of it and it is probably why Colin Powell and other military leaders are voting for Biden. Trump is an Ann Rand type of person. “What’s in it for me?” And selfishness is a virtue is Trump’s world view . If he disrespects and mocks soldiers who have suffered and died for our country’s common good , what do you think he REALLY thinks of Christ-like sacrificial Christians? I believe it won’t be long before we find out – his own close family members have scoffed at the idea that Trumps holds any Christian views or beliefs. Trump once said that he has done more for Christianity than Jesus Christ himself during a recorded interview. If sounds like Trump wants to replace Jesus to me. I’m pretty sure that statement is as close to blasphemy as anything I’ve ever heard in my life.

  33. Bride of Christ says:

    My son-in-law, a member of The First Calvary Division based in Ft. Hood Texas ( now stationed near Pearl Harbor) voted for Trump in 2016 but he is planning to vote for Biden in 2020. That says a lot.

  34. CM says:

    Bride of Christ,
    My brother was in the 1st Cav in the 2000s. Deployed to Iraq twice (did his Company Command there).
    BTW, Fort Schofield is the Army base in Hawaii. Fort Hood is about 2 hours from Austin, TX.

    Michael,
    Per Scriptures, ALL leaders are set up by God (that would mean Trump, Obama, Pelosi, Rubio, etc.). The problem is the pro-Trump Evangelicals like to play “ordained by God” card was a way of bullying others by implying that if you are somehow against Trump or his policies you are somehow in rebellion to God. Rapturesaint and his stream of consciousness madness is Exhibit A. I have seen this MO ever since Trump was elected. Maybe one should ask Rapturesaint if he or she ever prayed for Obama or Pelosi, as I seem to recall that Scriptures state clearly we are pray for ALL our leaders. If I was to put money on it, I would say no and would say they will try to come up with some way to weasel out of it. Given how much God hates hypocrisy, one could argue that God less displeased by someone praying for NONE of their leaders, as opposed to only praying for the ones on your team.

  35. Michael says:

    BOC,
    I’ve never disputed that God appoints leaders.
    My issue is ignoring that sometimes He does do as judgment….

  36. CM says:

    Xenia,

    Those more than meat burgers (plant-based) are actually pretty good. To me they are a little dry compared to beef, but if you load up the burger with lettuce, tomato, red onion, mustard, ketchup, and a slice of pepperjack cheese you won’t notice the moisture difference. The taste and texture of the patty is fine IMO.

  37. CM says:

    Xenia,

    Consider how far plant-based products have come along in recent years, one has to wonder if is it really suffering even just a little bit? But that is a discussion for a later time. Enjoy your burgers in any case.

  38. Jean says:

    CM,

    I have found the Beyond Burgers from Beyond Meat to be moist and delicious, especially when, as you described, loaded up with condiments.

    Among the many things that are killing Americans and leading us to lower life expectancy and higher health care costs is our diet. What we eat in this country and the laws and regulations governing dietary disclosures is not “first world” IMO.

  39. filbertz says:

    I’ll likely vote for someone who won’t win a single electoral vote, like I did last time when I cast it for the libertarian candidate whose name never did sound familiar, much less memorable. I have deeply considered X’s rationale and tried to coax my mind into a Biden-shaped frame, but at this stage, neither of the above. Both parties have misfired in selecting their candidates. Another Trump win will decimate the Republican party for a generation; a Biden win will be a bolting horse with no rider.

    Which brings me back to the golden opportunity laid out before the Church to be the emissaries of the good news where there is so much bad. Ultimately, my vote doesn’t change my course, my purpose, or my mindset, nor does the outcome.

  40. CM says:

    Jean,

    Yup. Since the Beyond Burgers don’t have the saturated fats found in beef, the mouth feel is different, and the umami, aka savoriness (the 5th taste) is not present nearly so much:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

    The cheese, tomatoes, ketchup, (and if you add grilled mushrooms) compensates.

  41. CM says:

    Filbertz,

    A choice between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich in 2020, like it was in 2016. And like in 2016 I will choose neither. The election of 2016 and 2020 were South Park in real life. I will do either write-in or 3rd party, like I did in 2016. A write-in name like Justin Amash sounds good to me right about now.

  42. Bride of Christ says:

    CM, My son – in-law IS working at Schofield in Oahu. They LIVE in Pearl City. I’ve been there 5 times. I’ve been to Ft. Hood in Texas four times as they lived on base on Ft. Hood. Not sure what your point is??

  43. Xenia says:

    CM, the deliciousness of meat analogs is a common topic of discussion in Orthodox circles. Lots of discussion about whether margarine is acceptible. These are the kinds of things converts to Orthodoxy worry about.

    Beyond Meat sausages are even better!

    So… I agree, it’s not really suffering. But I still have to think why I am eating it. It should probably be bean soup and bread, but I am not able to eat either of those things.

    These faux meat products cost more than the real thing and I don’t think that’s in keeping with the spirit of it all, either. I get my Beyond Meat products at the local Grocery Outlet, where they are old but cheap.

  44. B says:

    CM, As long as we’re talking military bases – I was born in Los Cruces, New Mexico while my father was in the Army working as a M.I.T rocket scientist at the White Sands Missile range. Next I lived in Lexington, Mass while my dad worked with the military out of Lincoln Labs research facility on defense. Finally, I lived one summer on Kwajalein Atoll while my dad headed up the anti ballistic defense program from Roi Namur ( he flew in a plane every day to work. I made five trips to the south Pacific to see my mother and father who lived there for nearly 20 years while my father worked for M.I.t. Mausoleum Missile Range is a top secret military basr , by the way. John Kennedy junior landed his plane on Kwajalein because it has the best ship diving in the world. He was sent packing because only too security clearance papers will allow you to set foot on that base. So you see, I come from a long line of military workers and familiarity with Army bases. I flew on a MAC flight from Hickham Air Force base to the Army base in Kwajalein. I even worked for the military as,a civilian on base there at their recreation center when I was 19 years old. My dad was working on Reagan’s ‘Star Wars’ defenses project, and I was separated from my family at age 17 when he, my , mother and my younger brother moved to the south Pacific after I graduated from High school in Boston. So , you’re welcome. I’ve made a lot of sacrifices for the safety of this nation over the years.

  45. Michael says:

    Rebecca K Reynolds posted this and I think it good…

    Thank God the Democrats care about the oppressed.
    Thank God the Republicans care about the unborn.

    Thank God the Republicans don’t want a socialist dictator.
    Thank God the Democrats don’t want a fascist America.

    Thank God the anti-Trumpers call out lies, immorality, and Constitutional violations in the President.
    Thank God the pro-Trumpers call out dishonesty and bias in the media.

    Thank God the Democrats want every citizen to have a humane life.
    Thank God the Republicans want to keep government small enough that it isn’t abusive.

    Thank God those who cry for peace remember what it is and love it.
    Thank God those who cry for justice are willing to take the long, hard road to tranquility.

    Thank God that conspiracy theorists don’t believe everything they hear.
    Thank God that objective truth balances out conspiracies that go too far.

    Thank God that Republicans love America.
    Thank God that Democrats love America.

    Thank God that Republicans want to stand against anarchists.
    Thank God that Democrats want to stand against racists.

    Thank God that Republicans are unwilling for individual liberties to be needlessly oppressed.
    Thank God that Democrats are willing to sacrifice certain liberties for the sake of the vulnerable.

    Thank God that Republicans are willing to fight for the right to bear arms.
    Thank God that Democrats are willing to fight to keep mass murderers from owning powerful weapons.

    Thank God that Republicans want small government.
    Thank God that Democrats want big government.

    Thank God that Republicans are calling out misrepresentation of data.
    Thank God that Democrats are calling out misrepresentation of data.

    Thank God that the oppressed are telling their stories and demanding change.
    Thank God that the suspicious are making sure our nation’s enemies aren’t hijacking good causes.

    Thank God for the necessary conflict that is rising out of honest hurt and honest suffering.
    Thank God for the moments of peace and humor that keep us going through hard times.

    Thank God that people are willing to use social media to express their concerns.
    Thank God that people are willing to to contradict concerns expressed poorly.

    Thank God that we have the freedom to fight this out with our words.
    Thank God that for the opportunity to learn from and to grow, and to push through.

    Thank God for people willing to offend friends and family because they are fighting for what is good, right, and true.
    Thank God for friends and family willing to love through offense.

    Thank God for a country that isn’t always comfortable.
    Thank God for a country that isn’t always comfortable because its governance rests upon the sincere struggles of a diverse people.

  46. CM says:

    Xenia,

    My take on margarine is that is likely much less healthy for you than butter in the long run. I usually use butter or whipped butter or the butter canola oil or olive oil blend (for spreading on my toast).

    On a silly
    note, Ezekiel bread is only authentic if it is baked over dung.

  47. Xenia says:

    I think margarine is a dreadful substance!

    It’s butter and olive oil over here.

    Nut butter is good on toast, especially cashew butter.

  48. CM says:

    Xenia,

    Agreed. Real butter from real cows is the way to go and the same goes for olive oil. I never liked margarine as a kid and like it even less now.

  49. Bride of Christ says:

    Xenia nd CM, after that beautiful post of Michael’s, you are talking about margarine? I was expecting an apology from you CM. You insinuated that I was lying about my ties to the military . Not very Christian of you to slander someone and then move on to casually talk about margarine after offending a sister. Did either of you even read Michael’s post. It made me cry, but obviously I have a much more tender heart than you.

  50. Bride of Christ says:

    Michael, I loved that post and I plan to copy it to read over and over. My best friend, who I teach ceramics classes with, is a Christian who attends Calvary Chapel Churches and supports Trump. I don’t try to tear her down for her views because they differ from mine ; I love her. Your post made me think of an incident at my daughter’s junior high. The police were called to disperse anti abortion protesters who were parading around in front of the school’s twelve-year-olds with large signs depicting bloodied aborted fetuses. I told my daughter, ” Those people probably shouldn’t have done that, but they are the conscious of society and serve a purpose. Don’t despise them. ” By the way, my daughter, son-in-law ( half black / half Latino architect) and me are having an on going discussion about Black Lives Matter.Many are not so sure what they are really about, it seems, and they both are grateful that I brought my concerns to them. They hadn’t heard about the Marxist angle.They are both Christians. We need to all discuss and share with each other, and family and friends.

  51. Open24Hours says:

    I do not associate with the Taliban who insist that, in order to be faithful, I must vote for their Caliph.

  52. Xenia says:

    Bride, I had read Michael’s post earlier when he put it on FB.

  53. CM says:

    Bride of Christ,

    I never said you nor implied were lying at all. Your post was confusing to me (and possibly others in this forum). This was what you typed:

    “My son-in-law, a member of The First Calvary Division based in Ft. Hood Texas ( now stationed near Pearl Harbor)”

    All I did was give the names and locations of the bases to make things clearer for EVERYONE here. Because when someone says Pearl Harbor, most people think Navy Base and would not know that there was an Army base close by (and even less would know the name of it).

    I hope that clarifies things.

  54. CM says:

    B,

    As for your reply, I am not sure what is the purpose. But it almost looks like you intended to get into a military family pedigree male appendage swinging contest. But rather than going down that road I will say thank you for your family’s service over the years and I will say your welcome as well.

  55. Bride of Christ says:

    Oahu is 50 miles. Did you know that it is the only place in the world where all three branches of the military are in that close proximity? They share all of their facikities. I’ve been on boats that’s were rented from the Navy for snorkeling trips. Oahu is unique in that the three branches are intertwined – pools, facilities, everything is shared by all three military branches in Oahu. That was definitely not the case in Texas. YOU were the one who seemed to insulate that I was the one who was somehow “incorrect”. Most people have never heard of Pearl City, where my family lives. But everybody knows Pearl Harbor which is 1O minutes from my daughter’s house. She works for the city of Honolulu on their new light rail project, btw, as their computer data storage manager. I never engaged in a “pissing contest” as you implied, but was just defending my credibility and my family’s honor after your attack.

  56. People toss around the term fascist, but I doubt many have any idea what it means. Here is a link to some symbolic pictures of the Capital’s interior.
    Fascism = Fasces. The difference is only etymology.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/uschs.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/what-does-that-mean/amp/

    This link shows the rotunda peak. I selected it because you can see the national motto. E Pleribus Unum.
    The Motto and the Fasces compliment one another.
    https://www.aoc.gov/explore-capitol-campus/art/statue-freedom

    These are not Christian symbols.

  57. Babylon's Dread says:

    Trump ordered the END of Critical Race Theory training in Federal agencies. COUNT ME ALL IN TRUMP 2020.

  58. Apropos of nothing, a neighbor kid (early to mid 30s) came to my door a few weeks ago soliciting donations for his mother who caught the covid. I later saw her and reas thankful she was ok. Earlier in the week, I saw a bunch of cars at the home, even on the lawn, and a bunch of people. It looked like a wake.

    Yesterday, I talked to their neighbor and there was indeed a death in the house, and I felt a little like a jackalope for thinking they were foolish for gathering in large numbers.

    The young man is the one who was found dead in bed. Maybe not from covid. He drove, but had a history of a neurological conditions where he sometimes had seizures. The family is a bit tough though I and the mother always wave, and she asked me in Spanish to help weed eat her front green strip once, then offering me money which I of course declined (took me less than 10 minutes, give me a break, no problemo).

    I used too see cops and sometimes questionable young men at the home years ago, but he seemed to calm down once he had kids. Now he leaves behind 4 young children, fatherless…

    Any of us could be taken at any time, even young. Their neighbor told me that they will have a fundraising deal this weekend, selling food and such. I still think it unwise to gather in large numbers, but if I see something going on, I may wander over.

  59. BD, the Filipinos on the test floor told me that they had to take racial sensitivity training a couple of months ago. I know them well enough that I asked, “why did you all have to take it, you’re all brown!” Claudio agreed and shook his head.

  60. bob1 says:

    Any of us could be taken at any time, even young.

    TNV,

    True words these. I always appreciate your observations!

  61. Jon Bartlett says:

    I’ll put my head above the parapet…. Reading in the UK, I found this article in the Guardian interesting. Even if biased, I suspect it gives a reasonably accurate picture:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/05/nearly-all-black-lives-matter-protests-are-peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds

  62. CM says:

    Bride of Christ,

    Yes I am aware of that fact of Oahu. My 2 brothers were stationed there as part of their careers, albeit at different times.

  63. CM says:

    BD,

    I am sure that more than makes up for the myriad of Trump’s eff ups and disasters. /sarc

  64. Babylon's Dread says:

    CM

    For me this is easy, anyone who sees in Biden a virtue opposite of Trump is standing on quicksand. There is no unstained place to identify in American politics. However, there are outcomes. Critical theory is sweeping our institutions. It is marxist ideology masquerading as justice. We have it in gender, race, sexual orientation, etc etc. It is grievance ideology. It is victim/victimizer categorizing. Social justice is not justice it is revolutionary overthrow of liberty in the name of ‘equality’ and it is the rapist who has sneaked in and impregnated our daughters.

    The left is dominated by this agenda. There is no liberalism. That has given way to progressivism the anthropocentric antichrist deconstruction of western civilization. Biden is a tool. Even he knows it. The liberal democrats coalesced against Sanders in a two week period and swept him into position. The covid/floyd fiascos positioned the Sanders/progressive wing to recapture the flag in their party and use the creepy old dude.

    Underneath it all is a subtle attempt to undermine western civilization where it has flourished the most. Right here in the USA.

    Banishing the teaching of Critical Race Theory from Federal institutions — if applied — would push back the submission of our culture across the board. It would open the door to ending Critical Gender Theory as creed in our education system. Never overstate the matter– I do know better – but I haven’t seen a crack in this wall in a couple decades.

    Trump is a citizen who became a public servant. The rest of these people left and right are lifelong serpents of the state. I have seen enough social justice screed. The devouring of our children needs to stop. As the left has taught me silence is violence. Time to end the rape of our institutions.

  65. MM says:

    Jon

    The Guardian article is highly biased and ignores the historic norm of all things in life, 10-20 %, or less, people control 90%+ of all things. It doesn’t matter if it’s economic, political, religion or protests. A few people control the the masses.

    That is important because I do believe many if not most people do not want a physical conflict. However, in case you missed it the leaders, including popular politicians, are openly calling for the fall, destruction and replacement of the current culture in the USA.

    Such a call brings those who enjoy violence to “peaceful” protests and the Guardian has sided with them. Did you miss the photo op of that innocent man kneeling while getting pepper spray? Great photo op but a lie about who he is and the planned violence brought to these “peaceful” protests. He isn’t some parishioner praying to god or a Buddhist monk peacefully protesting.

    BD

    You summed it up well.

    This isn’t about “sleepy Joe” or the “red man,” it’s is about ideology, the future of the USA and the world. No we will never return to 2019.

  66. I’m fascinated by the lack of response to directambiguity/ Dan 4:17.

    So, I would like to ask how that makes everyone feel when you hear the verse.

  67. MM says:

    Nathan

    One can’t take Dan 4:17 out of context and apply it directly to anything going on today. Additionally a careful read of the interpretation which follows and its outcome is essential.

    It is very easy to fall into the scripture byte trap. It reminds me of twitters and all the bytes being thrown around about our politicians and BLM.

  68. Jean says:

    “So, I would like to ask how that makes everyone feel when you hear the verse. [Dan. four, seventeen]”

    I feel very good about it. Aside from the fact that it is God’s Word, I would rather have a God who is in control of the world with a plan than a God who is not in control with no plan. What kind of God would that be and how would trusting in that God be worth anything, if He is not ruling over the world?

    When Jesus said to His disciples, “all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” He left nothing out. Jesus received the plenary authority that Daniel prophesied in 7:13-14.

    What is hidden from view is, “What is God’s purpose in raising Trump to be our President?” Is it to bless us? Is it to judge and punish us? Is it to call us, Christians, to repent of our idolatry?” Is it to pass world leadership to a different nation? Is it to bring on a conflagration of the whole world?

    However, the Bible is quite clear about how God’s people, i.e., Christians, are to live under any temporal authority. Even in Babylon, Jeremiah wrote that the exiles should,

    “Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.”

    The one difference between all government formations in the Bible and here in America, is that God calls specific leaders into their offices through elections by the governed. This too is a great blessing but tremendous responsibility.

  69. CM says:

    BD,

    You are quite the fool if you think Trump is not a servant of the state or pushes statism. But you are OK with it because he is big gob’mint statist that YOU like

  70. CM says:

    The bottom line is this:

    TEAM RED, TEAM BLUE, and TEAM WHATEVER THE H*LL TRUMP IS are all statists. They all are big gub’mint statists with an ever-increasing desire to expand the size and scope FedGov, shredding of the Constitution, and ever-increasing the threats to liberties and the Bill of Rights. The only bloody difference is what parts of FedGov they like to expand and what parts of the Constitution they shred.

  71. CM says:

    It is because of the mindless zombies on these teams, I took the Red Pill and woke up and I have voted for either 3rd party or done a write-in for POTUS for the past 3 elections (2008, 2012, 2016) and 2020 will be no different.

  72. Jean says:

    That was an excellent article Michael. I’ve always preferred ideas to labels and the Stackhouse article is a good reminder.

  73. Jean says:

    CM,

    I am rarely shocked by what the federal government is capable of, but in the past two weeks I have been shocked.

    One of the common refrains from apologists for the miserable pandemic response is American federalism. In that view, the federal government can’t produce a national plan to fight the pandemic.

    But, first two weeks ago, the President suspended social security withholding from paychecks of most Americans through the end of the year (it’s only suspended, and will eventually need to be repaid…LOL). Then this week, the President suspended evictions for individual renters through the end of the year (it is only suspended, the rent must be paid in 2021…LOL).

    So, first we see that when it suits the President, he can take national action, and second, who would have ever imagined that the President could suspend federal tax law or invade the sanctity of private contracts? To top this all off, these are really, really questionable policies, which could badly harm social security and also what about small landlords who depend on rent for paying their bills and feeding their families.

    We have a President who is asserting control and authority over parts of the government and parts of the economy which appears virtually unlimited in scope.

  74. Jim says:

    CM,

    Who did you vote for. Ron Paul would have worthy of my vote, as a lot of eyes were opened in 2008.

  75. CM says:

    Michael,

    I took a quick look at the article. I figured it is was much more complicated. Critical race theory as a term nowadays about as useful as are evangelical, conservative, etc. The actual definitions and characteristics have been lost to many if not most of the supporters and detractors.

  76. Em says:

    Pastor Dread @ 7:03 … Amen!
    CM @ 8:14 … God forgive and calm your brain
    Those of us here who WILL vote this November do not kid ourselves – we are not voting for the leader of the kingdom of God, but for the man who is, hopefully, best able to bless it with respect due…

  77. Michael says:

    The social security system is in deep trouble.
    The dirty little secret about SSI is that it was kept afloat by taxes from undocumented immigrants to the tune of about 11 billion a year.
    It’s less than half that now…and with the payroll tax being suspended it will run out of money in 2023.
    I am supposed to receive my first check next week…

  78. Michael says:

    “Trump is a citizen who became a public servant.”
    Please.
    This man serves nothing but his own avarice and ego.
    You may think his policies are great, but lets not lie about what he is.

    Many of my heroes have been scoundrels, but they are my heroes despite their flaws.

  79. Jim says:

    Michael,

    Early or disability?

  80. CM says:

    Don’t remember in 2008 or 2012.

    2008 was a write-in for Ron Paul.
    2012 was Libertarian Party.
    2016 was Evan McMullin, since it was a choice between a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich. I was tempted to do LP again in 2016, but when Gary Johnson went stupid, “What’s an Aleppo” (How simple is it know simple geography?) and the like, that kind of ended that notion.

  81. Michael says:

    Jim,

    Early.

    “Living by faith” for the last seven years has taken a toll…

  82. CM says:

    Correction. I do remember, I had to think for a bit. It is like trying to remember what B movies you say on a Saturday long ago.

  83. Jim says:

    CM,

    The LP certainly has a candidate problem. It’s a shame.

  84. Jim says:

    Michael,

    While opposed to the concept and realizing that it’s doomed to fail, I think that people should take it for all they can. I certainly will.

  85. Michael says:

    For many, many, years here I was often called to account for the fact that I am the world’s biggest Jerry Lee Lewis fan.
    I made no apology for his sins (which were many and vile), or for my fandom despite such.
    Charles Bowden was an alcoholic and a womanizer…if possible I’d have an icon of him on my wall.
    Trump is the most empty, avaricious, sociopathic, cur to inhabit the White House since Andrew Johnson.
    Own it.
    Support him anyway if you choose, but let’s assess his character properly.
    He has none.

  86. CM says:

    Jean,

    The point is the FedGov’s job would have been to coordinate the response (assuming they were competent). Case in point, testing kits. They have be approved by the FDA and such as this is where FedGov can step in. Likewise Airports are under the FAA. There are plenty of things the Federal Government can do that would have been effective to slow and mitigate the epidemic _AND_ stay in its lane. You need not trample or cast aside federalism as many suggested on both teams.

    Second, there are serious questions whether Trump even has the authority to do either (suspend SS payroll or put a hold on evictions). I highly doubt it. But what do expect from an Imperial Presidency that has been growing over the past 80 years. Again federalism there.

    That is my point: TEAM RED, TEAM BLUE, and TEAM TRUMP only like federalism when it suits them. They are FAIR WEATHER federalists. Period.

  87. Jim says:

    I liked the articles of confederation, At least they were legitimate.

  88. Duane Arnold says:

    This may sound simplistic, but voting in an election is a matter of conscience, not a matter of faith. Your conscience may be informed by your faith, but to equate a political point of view with the Regula Fidea is heresy. To enshrine a political leader as “the only choice for a person of faith” likewise smacks of idolatry. We all have our opinions, but that is what they are… opinions, not heaven given mandates…

  89. CM says:

    So is the Constitution as it was ratified by the required number of states and many of the same people involved in the Articles of Confederation were involved in the Constitutional Convention.

    The problem is most of the people in the US (and in Congress, save a few) have no idea what the document says or bother to understand it, much less support and defend it. It is all lip service for the most part.

    I think this year I will do a write-in for POTUS, most likely Justin Amash.

  90. Em says:

    Dr. Duane – point taken – well said

  91. CM says:

    Duane,

    Amen. Besides opinions are like a certain God-given orifice that everybody has….

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I agree with Duane’s last comment. Those who think they can out Christian others by their political decisions are indeed heretics.

    Political agendas have nothing to do with Christianity. As a Christian, I am commanded to care for the poor, feed the hungry, care for widows and orphans etc.

    Nowhere am I told to force or coerce others through a political process to follow what I or my church are commanded to do.

  93. Nancy Holmes says:

    I personally want to achieve the type of balance in my thinking that is shown in the thankful and humble attitude of Rebecca K Reynolds that Michael shared yesterday at 5:12 pm. Enough of the partisan demonization that divides this country and flings suspicion and resentment at the opposing party. I seek that balance in Christ who has gifted us with the gospel of peace and love thru His great sacrifice for us. I must cling to Him; I cannot survive mentally and emotionally unless He becomes the increasing focus of my life.

  94. Xenia says:

    Critical ____(fill in the blank)________ Theory is all that’s talked about in universities these days. It is never good, it is always leftist propaganda.

    You cannot sustain a flourishing society based on the politics/ theories of resentment.

  95. Michael says:

    Nancy,

    Amen and amen…

  96. Michael says:

    Critical theories will all eventually fail because they do not work in practice.
    They will be replaced by something else as the pendulum swings because of that failure.

    The real world is nether left nor right but struggling to hold the center in a constant battle against the sin nature of humans…whether humans acknowledge that nature or not.

  97. On Stackhouse’s CRT terminology:
    I really like his use of “New Morality.”

    Next.
    Prior to this election cycle, did anyone actually use: radical/marxist/cultural marxist/socialist/leninist/communist/extremist/anarchist(unless you live near portland) in your daily vernacular? (Liberal Democrat obviously was used)

    If not, when did you change? CRT would have drawn a blank stare in any church three yeara ago, when did you start seeing CRT as a threat? Open question.

  98. MM says:

    Jean

    Since you want to drift to theology and will,
    “ What is hidden from view is, “What is God’s purpose in raising Trump to be our President?” Is it to bless us? Is it to judge and punish us? Is it to call us, Christians, to repent of our idolatry?” Is it to pass world leadership to a different nation? Is it to bring on a conflagration of the whole world?”

    Maybe it’s far more simpler than this, God gave us what we wanted like Saul was given to Israel in spite of His warnings.

    Trump was voted in by the system we have in the USA and like all Presidents, Representatives, Governors, … we got what we asked for. God honored our request, but yet it is part of His plan and not ours.

    We are always at fault for who becomes our “leader.”

    Unintended consequences are always the problem.
    Good intentions pave the way to…

  99. Xenia says:

    Nathan, In university/college culture this jargon is used all the time and has been for years. I mean ALL the TIME. I was required to take a course on Critical Theory for Literature. The lecturers seemed to assume we were all in agreement with Marxism. Of course, if you pointed out the fruits of Marxism around the world (Gulags, etc) they would reply that wasn’t *really* Marxism, blah blah blah. By the way, my school removed the requirement to take that class, In fact, they removed the class altogether. Not everyone is willing to meekly go along with The Lie.

    But yeah, in the liberal arts world this is what they talk and write about. These are the people who scour old classics (and even new ones, like the works of Tolkien) and rip them apart for not being woke enough to suit them. Post-colonialism is a big one, which almost nothing written before the 1960’s by white people can escape.

  100. Duane Arnold says:

    The US is not the “New Israel”… it is not the “New Judea”. We are simply a nation like other nations. We are not as special as we might like to imagine… If we simply wanted to look at the number of Christians, we might even conclude that God is busy elsewhere.

  101. Jean says:

    MM,

    Your solution is not more simple. If God gave us the leader we wanted, was He, Handing us over to our depraved desires? Granting us the prosperity we asked for? Repairing the American dream we think needs repairing ? Granting us lower taxes we think are too high?

    Because human beings are corrupted by sin, we call good evil, and evil good. God would not be particularly gracious or merciful if he “gave us what we want,” unless it is to teach us a lesson.

  102. Xenia says:

    I think God looked down upon America and saw that us worldly Christians had the notion that we would like to halt/ push back the tide of evil so he gave to us worldly Christians a worldly leader and left us to ourselves to ponder the irony of it all on blogs.

  103. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Which tide of evil was stanched?
    The gay agenda and abortion march on.
    Abortion was actually dropping greatly due to the work of Christian activists on the ground.
    When we speak of evil, why is the separation of families and children into cages and the rejection of those fleeing death and poverty not mentioned?
    Where are we more holy?

  104. Xenia says:

    Michael, did you catch my use of the words “notion” and “irony?”

  105. Jean says:

    I work for a multi-national company, which recruits the best talent it can find worldwide, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. In the corporate world, we call it “diversity training.” In my opinion, if you want to compete in a global market for talent, a company must instill a diversity mindset in its culture.

    This means not only treating others with respect, but dismantling systemic barriers to success for other races, genders, religions, ethnicities, etc. which are inherent in an organization. People do not naturally see these barriers and the training helps to not only discover them but to root them out.

    White men might not like to hear it, but white privilege and patriarchy do exist in corporate America and in public institutions as well.

    I’m a complementarian when it comes to theology and the household, but when it comes to civil justice, educations, and employment I am strongly egalitarian.

  106. Nancy Holmes says:

    Michael
    That National Review article that you linked to at 9:27 am is an excellent one. Thanks!!

  107. Nathan is says:

    Xenia. I you had walked into any church and asked random people during the social time their thoughts on CRT, could you have recieved a response?

    Let’s say are tupical church is located in a college town. You meet Bob, from accounting, at the college. He can ID CRT, hates campus policy meeting, dispises certain professors, especially Minority and Women’s Studies. Will Bob be more concerned about the immanent end of the Western World and the Kingdom of God, or the game after church? If the game, what had changed in the 2020 election cycle to cause Bob to use CRT in his average day.

  108. Em says:

    In the late 60s one of my dear friends had been active in the John Birch Society… It was making sense and having an impact and then it was infiltrated by nefarious activists, who quickly gave it a reputation for being …. nutty extremists?
    Is that what we are seeing again today? On a more dangerous scale?

  109. Xenia says:

    Nathan, Critical Theory has expanded out of the universities with the results assaulting non-university people every day. Now the generation that has been fed on Critical Theory are out in the streets trying to bring the ideas they were taught in class to fruition. So this is why it’s a hot topic now. It’s more than theories, it’s becoming reality.

  110. Michael says:

    Nathan,
    I think CRT gained traction through its exposure from Jordan Peterson, who became the darling of many conservative thinkers and was brought into the church by right wing teachers/activists like James White etc….

  111. MM says:

    Jean

    I your explanations “box” God into behaviors and ideas. I believe the scriptures are very clear, no one knows the mind of God. I also believe those same scriptures are also very clear you and I live in the today, a result of many things both in our control and out side of it. Tomorrow is only an idea or dream and the best we can do is plan and make choices which will have consequences tomorrow or into the future.

    Yes we are depraved and it is a blessing as well as a curse both of which are given to us by God. We do our best or worst based on our depraved, animalistic desires, and limited knowledge of our future. Which is why, if we’d listen, today is the best day to repent and live with God.

    Tomorrow is always just a dream.

    A side note of intended or unintended consequences, in The State of Victoria AUS, their legislators by one, yes just one vote, granted 6 months of what is essentially a dictatorship, suspending all rights of their electorate/constituency in the fight against COVID. Any protests deemed inappropriate and even posting on the internet social media is illegal. The lockdown in Melbourne is 100%, people being caught without masks are physically forced to don them, and many have been arrested for inciting illegal behavior on their Facebook accounts.

    Just one vote is all it took.

    Careful what you wish for.

  112. Xenia. I’ll look at your link.

    Are you saying the difference between a “then” (campus subculture stretching back 50 years to the 60’s) and a “now” is people are in the streets? You said assaulted. Non-university people are getting assaulted.

    So let’s set aside theory, and pick a realife event:
    Fliyd gets shot. People take to the streets., and are really angry. In the procesd, fringe participants and criminals use the distraction to loot and burn. Its all on live stream/broadcast.

    Is it CRT that is upsetting, the livestream or something else?

    My asking is because Trayvon Martin was 2012-ish? Brown 2014-ish. We had the Fredfie Grey – Baltimore 2016. And now George Floyd. All of these are occuring after smart phones became ubiquitous.

  113. Jean says:

    CRT seeks to explain why there is a disparity in the treatment of black and white suspects by law enforcement, and why black men in particularly are viewed as suspicious by law enforcement when doing the same things as white men (e.g., walking down the street).

  114. Jean says:

    For example, a few weeks ago, President Trump at a campaign event promised suburban voters that if elected he would prevent the construction of low income housing in middle class suburbs. CRT would analyze Trump’s promise and seek to uncover Trump’s racial bias and appeal to white suburban racial fear.

  115. MM says:

    Jean

    In spite of your musings I assume you do realize CRT will over turn everything including the Constitution as it moves forward.

    Example: The Mayor of NYC said publicly he would build affordable housing in middle class neighborhoods. This is a fact not a sound byte.

    Now how do you think such a policy will be implemented? The naive will say they will purchase the properties from available or voluntarily agreeable people. However, the reality is like when land is condemned and purchased below market value to widen roads, put public utilities in or other such “benefits” for the public good.

    The same will be done and that is not fear mongering at all, it is historical with all social, dictatorial/fascist forms of governments. They are reimagining history and how they think the USA and world should look like.

    Choose your poison carefully.

  116. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    According to Jean, CRT assumes racial bias.

  117. Jean says:

    MM,

    There is an axiom that I apply to many fields of study. It is that when a theology, or ethics or morality or philosophy minimizes or ignores the truth, something will come in and fill the void. That something typically will have some truth to it, but then take that truth to an illegitimate extreme.

    I don’t subscribe to Pentecostalsim, but I believe in the Holy Spirit and the experience of faith. I believe in the office of Pastor, but I believe in the priesthood of believers. I’m not a post-modernist, but I definitely appreciate its criticism of modernism. I’m not a humanist, but I find human reason a fantastic gift of God, when rightly employed.

    On the subject of racism, I believe it exists institutionally and systemically, but I don’t hold to all the tenets of CRT. I don’t have to, but I can learn and take from it whatever truths it may offer.

    I believe that to remain competitive in the world economy and offer the best future to my children and grandchildren, our society needs to make the American dream one for all its citizens. It needs to discover where it is falling short and right those wrongs. I don’t believe we can sustain our society and standard of living if a soon to be majority of its citizenry are second class citizens.

    Not to mention that my Christian faith informs me that all human beings are created in the image of God; and Christ died for them as much as me. Who am I do discriminate against a person for whom Christ shed His blood?

  118. Em says:

    No subsidized housing in suburbs? Racial bias? No. Rather it is common sense. In my State the suburbs arr pretty well integrated, so racial bias doesn’t hold water
    On the other hand, those living in subsidized housing have been exploited to the max. I can’t think of one good reason why the children (there are lots of them) are not nurtured and encouraged in school and i n extra curricular activities, other than political purposes Victimhood is so maneuverable…..

  119. Xenia says:

    Nathan, I think that university powered CRT (and other “theories”) might be the brains behind a lot of civil unrest but of course, there are other factors, too.

    I graduated from one of the most liberal universities in the country, the University of California, Santa Cruz campus, in 2008. Queer and feminist studies were very popular even then. They were the ones with booths on the quad advertising their protests and other activities. They were probably (who else?) the ones who orchestrated shutting down the freeway. They were by nature ORGANIZERS. Since every city with a university in the country has similar grievance studies, I would not be surprised (best I can conjecture) that they are the brains behind quite a bit of organized unrest. Just look at the people who founded BLM, they come out of that university culture. So while the words were not in common use back in the day, I think they are being used now (by both sides) because it’s the philosophy/ideology that is powering the whole thing these days. It’s giving them the slogans and the manpower.

    In order for these extremist views to gain traction, there has to be an element of truth. Jean has pointed out one element of truth. But along with the truth you have to swallow gallons of poison,

    An example, not about race theory, but another pet theory: Queer theory, popular with the BLM founders. So last year I went to an academic conference in the SF Bay area about the works of JRR Tolkien. in the front row sat three proponents of what they called queerness. One was a man with a heavy beard, a plaid skirt and a cute little sweater. The other two were presenting themselves as women; who knows, maybe they were. No matter what topic the speakers presented, the man in the skirt had to raise his hand and ask how the topic related to queerness. He and his buddies dominated every discussion. They pretty much ruined the conference because no one had the nerve to tell them to shut up. This is happening all over these days as they grow ever bolder.

    So I don’t know if I answered your question very well. To summarize, I do think liberal university powered critical theory studies of all kinds grow out of a very sick university culture where professors have to watch their every word or they will be outed a hater and fired. They are taught to organize discontented people and that’s what they do.

  120. What if there is another reading of Daniel that pertains to the 2020 election cycle.

    The premise:
    1.Any attempt to establish external righteousness through political action is a waste, because except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
    2. All nations operate according to the course of this world, and are under the Prince of the power of the air.
    3. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
    4. One enters the Kingdon of God through death, and resurection, after completing the course of this life and the tribulations it brings.

  121. MM says:

    Jean:

    “ I believe that to remain competitive in the world economy and offer the best future to my children and grandchildren, our society needs to make the American dream one for all its citizens. It needs to discover where it is falling short and right those wrongs. I don’t believe we can sustain our society and standard of living if a soon to be majority of its citizenry are second class citizens.”

    No one, with minor exceptions, would disagree with this. It is a fundamental truth we should be following, but CRT is not about this at all. It is literally a reimagined and repackaged Marxist teaching and will have the same results. Some are more equal (and deserving of equality) than others.

    The pigs will rule.

    Be careful what you wish for!

  122. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, low income housing is not limited to subsidized housing. It could also be described a affordable housing – which in almost all cases is multi family housing.
    I live in a middle class neighborhood and I oppose all multi family housing around me – I don’t care who lives in them – they increase density, traffic and make gut busting demands on infrastructure. I do not want an 8 story 100 unit property built right behind my house with 300 people on their balconies peering down on my house and yard. So imagine 10 being built on your street.

    But then if I said such (which I just did) then CRT feels comfortable coming in and rating me as a racist. Screw them.

  123. Jean says:

    Here’s a simple question:

    What’s the longest you’ve ever had to wait in a voting place? In the 30+ years I have been a voter, I’ve never had to wait longer than 15 minutes to cast my ballot.

    Why is it that its not uncommon for voters in minority precincts to have to wait hours and hours in line to vote? What employer grants that paid time off to vote? Who child sits for them? Do you even care that this takes place at all?

  124. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, if you had just said in “poor precincts” I would be with you 100% – but you are race baiting when you say minority precincts.

  125. Xenia says:

    Jean, I live in a very diverse town. Blacks have always dominated government leadership here. On the whole, I think our little town is very well managed.

    Except on this one election year. I don’t know the story behind it, but for some reason, during a presidential election year, it was decided to consolidate a lot of polling places into one mega-polling place at the community center. When I got there, it was wall to wall people, all in different lines depending on neighborhood. Trouble is, the lines all snaked around and no one could tell which line was for which neighborhood. The wait was very long, probably an hour or so. I never did get to vote as I had kids at home that had been left alone long enough. Crying babies, exhausted old people, all kinds of unhappiness in that room. Since the lines were so confused, often a person would get up to the desk only to be told they had been standing in the wrong line. I said to myself at the time: This is how you could keep people from voting if you had sinister motives. Except this was a town where black people were the leaders and I don’t think it was sinister, just inept. So it was a mess and they never did it again but yes, I can see how this could happen.

  126. Jean says:

    You can call it what you want. But I believe many states have replaced the more outward Jim Crow laws with more subtle minority voter suppression tactics. The denial of such tactics and failure to address them are the oxygen which breaths life into things like CRT.

    The right offers no solutions, except delay the day of reckoning as long as possible. As long as I get mine… I won’t be around then…

    Do you think blacks and browns are going to just wake up some day at peace with their second class status under both the law and in the economy? Are they going to get used to the oppression or get beaten into submission?

  127. MM says:

    Jean

    Years ago, I live in a conservative middle class city, I allocated an hour to go to vote at my precinct when I got there the line was over an hour! Had to go to work so for that Presidential Election I failed to do my civic duty and vote.

    So I now file for absentee ballots and vote.

    Your argument is invalid and racist by nature. If history counts at one time only male land owners could vote. What does that mean? Well it means we have and will continue to work on the inequalities of life.

    It is part of our history and yet these people want to erase all of that and make you ashamed of who you are while creating a new privileged class of humans.

    Yes I feel strongly about who we are as a Nation, the good, bad and ugly of it all. It does not need to be destroyed and rebuilt just a continued on-going tweaking.

  128. Linnea says:

    I have lived CRT in my job the last five years. It is divisive. It makes women and minorities feel as if they received a promotion just because of their gender or ethnicity and not merit. It divides rather than unifies. Given the divisiveness, who shall we say is behind CRT?

  129. MM says:

    Jean

    BTW, this statement:

    “The right offers no solutions, except delay the day of reckoning as long as possible. As long as I get mine… I won’t be around then…”

    This is insulting and does not reflect the majority of the people I know or experienced. I’ve travelled from one side of this Nation to the other and in general this is gross and falsely promoted representation of the USA and you are guilty of falling for the propaganda.

  130. Babylon's Dread says:

    Jean is being the apostle for Critical Race Theory @1:03

    As for voter suppression most suppression comes in the form of simple personal irresponsibility. One reality that no one ever talks about is how the irresponsible might become more powerful. It is self-evident. Both sides know it. If absentee balloting is universal then let’s have it. If mass mailouts (my autocorrect prophetically insists upon making it “bailouts”) is the path of voting then we’ll get a lot of folks voting in the spirit of their friends and family.

    As for our systemic second class …. keep blowing on that ember …. wait it is mostly peacefully warming the cities right now.

  131. Jim says:

    Jean,

    I really don’t know what world you’re living in. Racism against minorities clearly exists in the US criminal justice system. It seems that you see it everywhere. Do minorities on your workplace earn less than whites, assuming same same title, years on the job, etc? This isn’t the case among my friends and neighbors.

  132. Xenia says:

    Time for something sweet:

    Back when my now 45 year old son was about eight, he entered our town’s talent show (held at the same community center mentioned above.). He was the only white entrant and this kid is really white-looking. So the black children performed musical numbers that represented their culture, and they were great! They my son went to the piano and began playing Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata. The audience laughed and laughed, but my boy soldiered on. When he was finished, the black mayor came up on stage and gave him a great big hug. This is the kind of thing, bad and ultimately good, that happens when you live in a very diverse town. You learn to get along, inspired by good leadership.

  133. Michael says:

    Oregon has voted exclusively by mail for years with no problems at all.

    Go and do likewise.

  134. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have no problem with voting by mail as long as it is handled like we always have with absentee ballots.
    1.) you must be a registered voter
    2.) you must request your own ballot.
    3.) Your signature on the ballot must match the signature on the registration.
    4.) When you get your ballot, your name is removed from the precinct rolls to avoid doule voting.
    5.) ballots must be held to strict postmarks.

    If there is going to be cheating, it is most likely to happen on both sides – so call that part even.

  135. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    For what it is worth, I agree with you at 1.03…

  136. Jean says:

    Thanks Duane. You mean a lot to me.

  137. Xenia says:

    Maybe my view of black people has been affected by the fact that my family has always been a part of the white minority here in town. Black mayors, councilmen, police chiefs, school teachers, churches, restaurants… I just see black people as neighbors and friends. CRT tells me that my attitude is very racist.

  138. Babylon's Dread says:

    I wish Oregon would peacefully protest exclusively by mail.

    Doing Likewise Dread

  139. Michael says:

    Oregon ends where Portland begins.

    The Last of The Native Oregonians

  140. Jean says:

    Xenia,

    You’re in a rare position to be able to empathize with blacks on the basis of experience. That is at the heart of desegregation. I respect your POV on all topics.

  141. Babylon's Dread says:

    Xenia you need a white fragility seminar to confess your white supremacy… there you either confess and repent or you deny and prove your guilt.

    Day 179 in New Mexico of our lockdown… divorces ramping up…. family conflict over everything from buying habits to policing each other’s speech… maniacal stress with children and teenagers … mental health in full collapse… and friends ending their relationships…

    It has eased some but greeting people in open fields who are wearing enough headgear to equip a mosque makes even leaving the house a DREAD ….

    And all we can do is argue our white supremacy.

    Grand Imperial Dread

  142. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    Your experience of the Tolkien is, unfortunately, not unusual. The last Patristics conference I attended had a paper on “A Feminist/Transgender Approach to Cyril of Alexandria”… It’s mainly young academics struggling to make a mark with something “new” or “controversial”. There’s a lot of angst (and few jobs) in academia…

  143. Michael says:

    I’ve never seen anything like this after an election…maybe we should try another power source…

    “The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”” (Luke 10:17–20 ESV)

  144. Michael says:

    When I was a teenager the county next door still had sundown signs up for people of color.
    If you see a black person where I live it’s an oddity.
    I don’t care what “theory” you want to use, racism exists.
    It is still morally accepted by many here to dislike Hispanics …everyone needs some one to feel better than…

  145. Michael says:

    BD,

    Here in my area many people have just decided to end the mitigations unilaterally.
    I think it’s a temporary reprieve to what’s coming…

  146. Xenia it sounds like your describing evolution of ideas. Universities existed by the Latter Medieval era and functioned as petri dishes for ideas. (I’m thinking of perhaps a William Tyndale)
    People find new ideas really radical, and threatening. (Thinking of Tyndale turning out to be flammable)
    It just seems that is the natural activity of higher learning.

    If I was black, I would be very angry because of my history. If I was gay, same thing. Nor would that anger cease, only simmer till the next provocation. What I think has changed is technology. Social media now creates the potential for direct action.

    Rioting and lynching was never a problem in American history. Witnesses? What witnesses? But in 2020 rioting is. I would postulate then and now are seperated by only a few ingredients. One is the video camera, and another is a change in attitude. The idea that the guy getting the punishment says to himself, I’m tired of it. And I’m willing to do something about it.

    So a historical progression might look like this:
    1. Tulsa 1921. A total black blow out.
    2. WW2 housing/employment riots. White victory, but with a few casualties.
    3. 1960’s race riots. Blacks aren’t losing anymore. Stonewall is a turning point for gays, in gay prominate cities.
    4. King riots. Blacks show they can strike back hard. City Hall has good reason to fear.
    5. Floyd. Minorities and dissatisfied whites can threaten social order across many urban areas. I think the Scriptures already summarized the issue though.

    “A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.”

  147. Michael. Oregon is such an odd State. Portland culture contrasting with rural. The Anarchist boys in Portland and Seattle really leave me with a sense of disdain. It’s frustrating to watch such a minuscule riff raff be able to function like gas on a fire.

  148. MM says:

    Nathan

    So you defend and approve of riots. Which means you approve of the destruction, taking of property and eventually the killing of people!

    Maybe re-read God’s ten statements.

  149. Michael says:

    MM,

    Links to that hate site are utterly forbidden here.
    Period.

  150. bob1 says:

    I can’t believe all the reactionary comments on here.

    I hope y’all have ObamaCare, ’cause a lot of you are gonna need knee surgery.

  151. Michael says:

    MM,

    Explanation isn’t affirmation.

  152. MM says:

    Michael

    I didn’t know you hated those writers, but the point is true about the CRT.

    Sorry I did not see or about prohibited sites. And I am not a reader of that site, just caught it in a random google.

    I will repeat though, racism bad and not biblical, CRT is anti religion since it is essentially “privileged” (according to the theory) in all their teachings.

    As I stated earlier Marxism repackaged and reimagined by a new generation who have forgotten history and its ugly past. We are scheduled to repeat the same mistakes over again.

  153. MM says:

    Michael:

    “Explanation isn’t affirmation.”

    Nor is it justification.

    Nathan left out his disdain for such behaviors and even a “just war” probably isn’t.

  154. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Oregon was founded on far more explicitly white supremacist grounds than people whose only experience of it has been Portland may be likely to know, especially people who moved to Portland without having grown up in Oregon. It’s one of those things that, as an Oregon-born person, I think we need to constantly remember.

    At the same time, there’s a history of collaboration across racial divides. Inter-tribal and inter-racial marriage was happening centuries ago in the PNW among Native Americans and traders from the British empire who set up a trading post, for instance. A friend of mine shared how the founder of Centralia was a black man who left Missouri for Oregon and then, discovering just how racist Oregon territory was, moved north to Washington territory.

    https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/centralia-washington/

    I hope and pray that the traditions of collaborating across the racial lines that people keep trying to reinforce from a variety of directions continues. We need to remember the bad, but we should also remember the good. I haven’t been down to Oregon in a long time but I am grateful I grew up in western Oregon. There were advantages to a bookish Pentecostal kid growing up in the region that brought forth the Pentecostal scholar Gordon Fee! I had a Pentecostal youth pastor in Oregon introduce me to Fee, Solzhenitsyn and Schaeffer who was on the fence about Kierkegaard. The older I get the more astonished I am that I encountered such a youth pastor while living in Oregon.

    I … politely dissent from just about anything published at Pulpit and Pen.

  155. Michael says:

    MM,

    I did not say that I “hated” those writers.
    I find their work despicable, but I save hate for significant people.

  156. Michael says:

    “It’s one of those things that, as an Oregon-born person, I think we need to constantly remember.”

    Yep.
    It didn’t just vanish one day…

  157. bob1 says:

    Doesn’t Pulpit and Pen pretty much suck?

  158. Michael says:

    “Nathan left out his disdain for such behaviors and even a “just war” probably isn’t.”

    One does not have to explicitly state their contempt or affirmation in every comment.
    You need to ask Nathan, not accuse him.

  159. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    on a completely separate note, a friend just lent me Star Blazers 2199 and 2202. Watched 2199 recently and it’s a pretty worthy remake of a classic anime. Looking forward to watching the 2202 series. That’s another wonderful thing about having lived in the PNW all my life, we benefited more directly from anime crossing the Pacific over the last twenty years than animation fans in the rest of the US. 🙂

  160. Michael says:

    bob1,

    I don’t even want them mentioned here.

  161. Jean says:

    I find it comical that Christians who say we should honor Trump per biblical principle are in many cases the very same Christians who dishonor their own State governors and local officials. How does that work?

  162. directambiguity says:

    bob1,
    Obama Care got me less than 2/3 of the coverage at twice the price.

  163. directambiguity says:

    If I’m going to be judged for my vote maybe it is a matter of faith.

  164. bob1 says:

    DA,

    As usual, you missed the point.

    I don’t care about your OC experience.

  165. Jean says:

    bob1,

    DA’s experience with OC speaks more about his prowess than OC.

  166. Xenia says:

    Jean, good point. There’s a petition, being passed around by Trump supporters, to recall CA governor Newsom for shutting down the churches. His liberalism has caused him to be inconsistent at times but I do not believe his motives are to persecute Christianity. I think he wants to preserve our lives . But enough is enough! Churches can’t continue like this on a never ending shutdown.

  167. directambiguity says:

    Bob1,
    I didn’t miss anything but you seem to.
    In real life, my last knee surgery was less than $500 out of pocket, my next one would be over $5500 then 20% after that thanks to Obama Care.
    And I pay double for that benefit.

  168. bob1 says:

    I still don’t give a s*it.

  169. directambiguity says:

    Christian love.

  170. Dan from Georgia says:

    Has anyone here heard of the denomination “Primitive Baptist Church”? That is not the name of the church I presume, since the signage said “Emmaus”. I know I could google it or whatnot, but I thought I would make seeking the answer more personal. Wife and I were out driving some rural roads here in western Georgia to take in the scenery (horse ranches, small churches, etc) and came across a small church with this denomination title.

  171. Michael says:

    Dan,

    Hard core, separatists, Calvinist Baptists.
    Foot washers…

  172. Dan from Georgia says:

    Ahhh…thanks Michael. Glad I didn’t stop to check it out. First time I have ever heard of that sect.

  173. Mike E. says:

    Well, I honestly don’t want to bring this up, but I consider you all my family, and it’s weighing on me so…the whole thing with Trump’s disdain for veterans and military sacrifices I cannot abide. Some of you know my story, some don’t. My family has had generations serve in military conflict. My service, for many reasons, has defined my whole life. So I’m just wondering. Is what Trump said about the military members who sacrificed their very lives for all of us okay? Is the attitude behind it okay? If you think it is, I literally cannot understand you and never will be able to. And please don’t give me the nonsense it’s fake news. It’s been confirmed by both liberal and conservative news services. He said it. He believes it. How, my peeps, is it justified to continue supporting this individual, still…after all he has done and left undone? I do not say that accusingly, nor in bitterness. I simply just do not, and unfortunately, I cannot, understand it. Much love to all.

  174. Em says:

    Since there is so much political angst now, maybe all such posts could be consigned to Sept 4th’s Open Blog? Just a thot. 🙆

  175. Dan from Georgia says:

    Mike E…

    I avoid politics discussions/argument here about 98% of the time. My mom’s father is buried in France (served in WWII), and one of my dad’s brother’s is buried at the National Memorial Cemetery (Punchbowl Crater) in Honolulu….died in the battle at Chosin Resevoir. If true, further proof in my view that Donald Trump should not have been elected President and doesn’t deserve a second term. I don’t care what people say about abortion (still legal) or “draining the swamp”. This is flat our disrespectful to millions.

    And no, I don’t believe for a second that if Biden wins the Presidency, Christians are going to be persecuted/rounded up, and we are going to become a socialist nation (the boogeyman du jour).

  176. Dan from Georgia says:

    Mike E…also…comments like this from our President I find absolutely insulting and cannot for the life of me understand how they can be defended or explained away. Makes my blood boil. But then that is why I don’t talk politics much.

  177. CM says:

    Wenatchee,

    Should you not properly call the series “Space Battleship Yamato”? Desslock was a bad*ss, Derek Wildstar and Mark Venture were pr*cks.

  178. CM says:

    Wenatchee,

    Unless of course you attend the varies anime cons across the US. This is one of the biggest:

    https://www.momocon.com/

    It started a small con by a bunch of Georgia Tech students in the anime club Anime O-Tekku back in 2004 with around 200 people. In 2019, over 39,000 attended.

  179. Dan from Georgia says:

    CM,

    Curious, is Momocon held in Atlanta each go-around/year?

  180. pstrmike says:

    “Oregon ends where Portland begins.
    The Last of The Native Oregonians”

    Yep, in more ways than one. I told a friend of mine who use to live there that he lived in California, just the rainier version.

  181. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mike E – even Bolton who lies about Trump at the drop of a hat denies Trump made the comments.
    It’s a 2018 story dump right before the election by Biden’s biggest supporter in the first 2 quarters – the publisher at the Atlantic.
    It’s gossip and a sin.

  182. Jean says:

    MLD,

    You’re either stupid or a liar. Bolton never denied Trump made those comments.

    “I didn’t hear that,” Bolton told The New York Times. “I’m not saying he didn’t say them later in the day or another time, but I was there for that discussion.”

    And do you have any evidence that “Bolton who lies about Trump at the drop of a hat.” You should be ashamed of yourself. Please change your moniker. You are a disgrace to his name.

  183. Mike E. says:

    Dan from Georgia— I greatly appreciate your sentiments. I don’t much like to get political on this blog… Like I said, it was bothering me. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

  184. Mike E. says:

    MLD…You accuse me of sin? Ha Ha Ha Ha. Get in line. It’s a pretty long line. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
    Also: Bolton? Hahahaha again. 🙄

  185. Em says:

    Mike E, you have every reason to take insult at the words ascribed to Trump….
    My problem is that i don’t believe he said that of our military as it doesnt jibe with his actions
    Now there is always the chance that, in blowing off steam in frustration over something, that he did…. In which case, a contrite apology is due… However, some words cannot be dilited by apologizing…. I do hope and pray that someday soon we know for sure – did he or didn’t he? Sigh…. God keep

  186. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mike E – no, what the Atlantic published.
    Look at the niece sitting around with Trump’s sister, just gabbing and gossiping when she hits the record button to write her book.
    We love the gossip.

  187. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, you are the greatest consumer of gossip on the blog – but you cloak yourself in your own righteousness.
    Your hate for Trump trumps any reasonable attempt at sane conversation with you.

  188. Bride of Christ says:

    Martin Luther’s disciple, I think you just want to believe that. Just like Mike E. said, ” Don’t tell us it’s fake news”. We’ve all heard the horrible things Trump said about the late Republican Senator John McCaine. These latest vile Trump comments are just more of the same , and it shouldn’t surprise anyone. I voted for John McCaine for president and the Trump’s comments about such a respected and honorable man sickened me. I just toured the Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor this past March. I dare you to go take that your and then say you support Trump’s comments. When the boat leaves the memorial there is nearly complete silence and not many dry eyes. It is an experience you can never forget.

  189. Anon says:

    Cohen writes that before winning the presidency, Trump held a meeting at Trump Tower with prominent evangelical leaders, where they laid their hands on him in prayer. Afterward, Trump allegedly said: “Can you believe that bulls–t? Can you believe people believe that bulls–t?”

    “The cosmic joke was that Trump convinced a vast swathe of working-class white folks in the Midwest that he cared about their well-being,” Cohen writes. “The truth was that he couldn’t care less.”

  190. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    CM, my friend’s still watching the Deslock one (the original) with his son. He’s lent me the recent remake where the character is called Dessler. There’s no Derek Wildstar in this version, Sasumumu Kodai is the name. The reboot was done in a way where they didn’t Anglicize or Americanize the names, which is generally what I prefer.

    but, yes, whatever they call him he’s always a badass!! Series 1 2202 with the Gatlantian empire was painfully slow-going for a few episodes and when Dessler came back my brother and I rewound multiple scenes because Dessler/Deslock was in the episode.

    So we’re watching the 2012 remake, which is really different in a lot of ways but still worth watching.

    Seattle is pretty well-situated for anime. I once got to see one of the only LEGAL showings of Mamoru Oshii’s film Angel’s Egg, with the director on hand to sheepishly say he made the movie a long time ago and sorta didn’t remember what he was making the film about. Someone near me in the audience then leaned over and told me that Oshii was being coy about the film being made after he abandoned Christian studies.

    Back in 1992 to 1997 things weren’t as well set-up as they have since been for anime access. Paradoxically we’ve got Michael Eisner to thank for playing some role in mainstreaming access to Miyazaki but the best part about the end of the Mouse House distribution deal is you can finally get Studio Ghibli Films through Shout Factory and elsewhere without having to pay Mouse House prices. 🙂

  191. CM says:

    Dan from GA and Wenatchee,

    MomoCon is held ever year in Atlanta (in May). The 2020 con was cancelled due to COVID, but it is on for 2021. The dates are on the website I gave earlier.

  192. Bride of Christ says:

    Christian women voters here may be I interested in this article written recently by Billy Graham’s granddaughter for USA Today. See https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2020. ‘ I’m Billy Graham’s grandaughter. Evangelical support for Donald Trump Insults our legacy. By supporting Donald Trump evangelical leaders are failing us and failing the gospel, ” writes Graham. “Christian women must step up where our church leaders won’t”. It’s a must read article .

  193. Jean says:

    “Your hate for Trump”

    It’s no secret that I’m no Trump supporter, but my hatred is not so much directed at the man, but at the harm he is doing to both our country and its culture and institutions.

    But more than anything, and this is what causes me the most sorrow, is what Trump does to his defenders, what he brings out in his defenders.

    If a civil servant with a long career, who is known as an honorable, conservative, Republican, or a military officer with decades of honorable service in defense of our country, crosses Trump, that individual is branded a liar or RINO or Swamp, or deep state, or incompetent, or worse.

    Then a Trump supporter, many of whom would self-identify as Christian, who have never met the civil servant or military officer, who have no first hand knowledge of the individual or evidence of wrong doing, but who have heard that the individual crossed Trump some how, go out on social media and call that individual a liar at the drop of a hat or some other insult or slander.

    It gives me great sorrow to see a friend or even a stranger who is bent to such wickedness due to the magnetism of a man who honed his charisma as a reality TV host. How will such people retrieve their dignity and honor that they have so readily cast off? How can they sleep at night, murdering complete strangers with their tongue.

    This is no longer about Trump but about what kind of people Christians want to be. Are we independent thinkers or just parrots? If we are parrots, who will we choose to parrot?

  194. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I readily admit that Trump is an ass – no doubt about it – but it just shows what disdain I have for the Democrat plan for our country, our kids and grandkids.
    On my FB I never promote Trump – never! But I do what I can to convince people that the Democrats are evil.
    Having a “nice” person sitting in the Oval Office is not the answer. Well, it may be your answer – but not mine.

  195. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    And go back to 2008 to see what the dems said about the beloved McCain. The Obama campaign all but called McCain a traitor for the tape he made as a POW.

  196. Michael says:

    “But I do what I can to convince people that the Democrats are evil.”

    Sad.

    I know many on both sides of the conflict…they may be wrong, but I would never say they are evil.

    They’re brethren who disagree.

  197. Michael says:

    Jean,

    “You’re either stupid or a liar. ”

    Be better than this…

  198. MM says:

    On the military insults; I have listened and read everything possible from all sides and my conclusions are these:

    1. No one who is on record, giving their name and details, has personally heard Trump say those ugly things. Even those who openly hate him say they did not hear them.

    2. There are a lot of off the record accounts, none of which really can specifically point to the French incident.

    3. He clearly does not like McCain.

    Finally in another direction, I will unequivocally state, as I watch the performance of the Democratic Governors, Mayors, City Counsels, DAs and Boards in their handling of the Covid, protests, riots, crime and BLM rhetoric I will not vote for a single Democratic Candidate.

    They have failed a moral failure in their fiduciary responsibilities to the people they represent and are charged to protect.

    Not a Trump lover, but the blame for the issues across our Great Nation have to be properly and responsibly placed. They are the ones bringing and allowing chaos in people’s lives.

    May God be blessed by all this 1st day of the week!

  199. MM says:

    Jean

    “ Are we independent thinkers or just parrots? If we are parrots, who will we choose to parrot?”

    I’ll be honest, over the years reading your posts ranging from your support for Lutheranism and now political I really don’t find your positions to be independent at all. You have clearly chosen who you will side with in these areas.

    Now is that bad? Not at all except when you hide behind the mantra and implication of you ability to independently think and others who have differing positions don’t.

  200. Jean says:

    MM,

    “Finally in another direction, I will unequivocally state, as I watch the performance of the Democratic Governors, Mayors, City Counsels, DAs and Boards in their handling of the Covid”.

    Aside from the fact that I don’t believe any state official can “handle” Covid in the absence of strong federal leadership, due to its nature, my question to you is: Who or how would your ideal Republican governor handle Covid?

  201. Jean says:

    MM,

    By it’s nature a “confessional” Christian tradition pretty much parrots its confessions on matters of faith and doctrine. We adhere to Sola Scriptura because before we subscribe to our confessions we compare them to Scripture, and only if we agree that the confessions accurately interpret Scripture, do we subscribe to them, and with that become parrots.

  202. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, when I speak of Democrats I speak of the institution not the individuals. My 93 yr old mom, a dyed in the wool blue dem since Roosevelt, a nice lady but she holds to the evil agenda, politics and vision for our nation.
    My younger brother the same, although he is a nice chap. 🙂

  203. BOC’s comment regarding Graham’s granddaughter addresses one aspect of the core cognitive dissonance surrounding Evangelicalism.

    Graham was part of a ridiculously small group of Fundamentalist who wanted an ecumenical, pragmatic, multi-ethnic and very globalist Fundamentalism. The suffering of humanity (WW2) was a primary motivator. The express objective was the global spread of Protestant tradition, in the form of Low- Calvinism.

    2016-2020 is a rejection by Evangelicals of their history, beliefs and founding fathers. Yet Evangelicalism is a religion where salvation is derived from proper thoughts and opinions.

  204. MM says:

    Jean

    My Governor is a Democrat and while he has not been as restrictive as others he is using the COVID-19 crisis to advance other social ideals he has long held.

    Additionally while the noise and direction is all about the virus my State’s Democratic controlled Legislature is also quietly preparing major tax and policy changes for the November election.

    Yes I’ve heard too many times about your accuracy of scripture, but that is not an acceptance others may also have a similar position and can equally support their views. By nature you’re argument of independent thinking fails and as I clearly wrote, the problem I have is implying independence when in reality it isn’t.

    I have no problem saying I and my thinking are a products of many things. My up bringing, the culture surrounding me, my race (in this racist debate), age, education, work and so many other influences just to name a few. In no way am I now or will ever be a true independent thinker. To say other wise is dishonest and foolish.

  205. Jean says:

    So, MM, a nothing burger. That’s okay and not unusual. It’s easy to criticize the job others are doing. It’s another thing entirely to walk in their shoes.

    I would like to see everyone who doesn’t believe in masks, who doesn’t believe in social distancing, who doesn’t believe in limiting any economic activity during the pandemic, who doesn’t believe churches should be subject to any community restrictions on meeting, to sign a waiver, both individually and on behalf of their dependents and any family owned business, that in the event they become infected with the coronavirus, they and theirs waive all medical care. If they are not willing to help mitigate the pandemic, they should not fill up our hospitals, so that those who are willing to pitch in will have the care they need.

  206. Jean says:

    Let’s go straight up freedom. If someone doesn’t want to contribute to the mitigation of the pandemic, then let the taxpayers be free from supporting you if you get sick; let health care professionals be free from treating you if you get sick.

  207. Duane Arnold says:

    In place of a homily when I say Morning Prayer, I’ve been reading my old friend, Kenneth Leech. He wrote this in 1998. I think he is right…

    “Churches in the next century are likely to become more marginal. They will need to earn the right to be heard by the intrinsic sense of what they say, and by their own integrity and credibility. This could be the salvation of the churches, but we will need to develop new and far stronger forms of solidarity and sustenance.”

  208. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Your friend was prophetic…

  209. Jim says:

    Accidentally smart Jean, and then the usual lack of understanding Jean.

    ” let the taxpayers be free from supporting you if you get sick”

    ” let health care professionals be free from treating you if you get sick”

  210. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    I think, in many instances, we’ve lost the right to be heard by the lack of intrinsic sense in what is said, the lack of integrity, and the auctioning off of credibility in the pursuit of politics… It is a tragedy.

  211. Muff Potter says:

    It has now been confirmed that the President did indeed make cruel and disparaging comments about our Nation’s war dead.
    I cannot fathom how it is still possible that Evangelicals (or anybody else for that matter) can still support the President’s re-election bid.
    As a vet myself (Vietnam Era), I will cast my vote to legitimately remove him from office.

  212. MM says:

    Jean

    So, Jean, a nothing burger.

    As usual you go off on your politically and religious opinions and criticisms without considering others. It is fair and open to critique the Mayors of cities like Portland, Seattle, Chicago, and others. Why? Because they made National news for their failures and arrogance in the face of the peril they have brought to the life and properties of innocent people.

    What I and my community do is equally important to those directly involved, the exception is it hasn’t and won’t make National news.

    Additionally Jean you ignored the premise of my statement, you and I are NOT independent thinkers and never will be.

    Muff you wrote this, “It has now been confirmed that the President did indeed make cruel and disparaging comments about our Nation’s war dead.”

    Please cite your sources, I and other would be seriously interested in them. Thank you!

  213. Jim says:

    MM,

    Jennifer Griffin at fox tweeted:

    “Two former sr Trump admin officials confirm .@JeffreyGoldberg reporting that President Trump disparaged veterans and did not want to drive to honor American war dead at Aisne-Marne Cemetery outside Paris.”

    Case closed in the minds of those whose minds are already made up.

  214. Jean says:

    MM,

    What I meant is that you served me a nothing burger. I asked you a simple question: “Who or how would your ideal Republican governor handle Covid?” You refuse to answer. That’s okay, but it is a nothing burger.

    Some Republican governors followed Trump’s lead, which he is still leading with, that we should just ignore the pandemic. Trump wants college stadiums full; he wants professional sports stadiums full. He just goes along as if we have “turned the corner” or some other nonsense.

    When FL, TX and AZ followed Trump’s lead ten’s of thousands of deaths resulted, they had to re-close parts of their economies and consumers pulled back. But for a split second, they joined the fantasy.

    But I would really like to know if they are your models or if you have another model?

    I would rather not deal with acronyms or labels, but let’s get a little granular and figure out what the best response should be, so that we can measure state and federal officials. Otherwise, we’re just being mindless partisans.

  215. Jim says:

    “followed Trump’s lead ten’s of thousands of deaths resulted” The hatred in this accusation is unimaginable to me.

    Florida is still in Phase two. Your statement is incorrect.

  216. Jean says:

    My statement: “When FL, TX and AZ followed Trump’s lead ten’s of thousands of deaths resulted, they had to re-close parts of their economies and consumers pulled back.”

    Halsey Beshears, the Secretary of Department of Business and Professional Regulation: “Effective immediately, the Department of Business and Professional Regulation is suspending on premises consumption of alcohol at bars statewide.” 6/26/20

  217. Jim says:

    “The move comes just days after DeSantis threatened to pull the liquor licenses of bars that didn’t follow the state’s re-opening guidelines. During a Friday news conference in Naples, DeSantis said the order was issued because many people weren’t obeying the state’s reopening guidelines.”

    It had nothing to due with tens of thousands of deaths, which apparently can be laid at Trump’s feet.

  218. Jim says:

    So Jean, the “parts of the economy” you’re referring to is the sale of alcohol in bars. Desantis moved us into phase two, which is restrictive, and dependant upon compliance. Drunks at bars weren’t complying, and he was ready to pull licenses. He instead directed the DBPR to curtail alcohol sales at bars.

    Every phase of our reopening is based upon compliance. You’ll also see pull-backs after phase 3.

    The specificity of what actually happened exposes your hyperbole.

  219. Jean says:

    Jim,

    The idea that bars can enforce (or people will obey) reopening guidelines is about as realistic as saying a driver can drive safely under the influence. It was a fantasy to think that a bunch of intoxicated people are going to social distance, etc.

    Regarding 10s of thousands of deaths, some people, including Trump himself as recently as this past week, believe that had it not been for his leadership, the death toll could have been more than a million lives lost. So Trump seems to be taking credit for the numbers we have seen.

    There was a time in our country when leaders lead with the saying: The buck stops here. Does that still apply?

  220. Jean says:

    Also Jim, DeSantis’ move into the reopening phases, I understand, did not follow the Cornavirus Task force guidelines for reopening. Apparently he jumped the gun on when different phases of reopening were instituted. Which, by the way, was exactly what Trump was telegraphing to the governors.

    I don’t think there is much dispute that Trump openly and publicly lobbies states and supporters against the advice of his CDC and Task Force. Do you dispute that?

  221. Jim says:

    Jean, I don’t defend Trump. I mock and bait the haters.

    Phase two in Florida is completely in line with CDC guidelines, but depended on compliance.

  222. MM says:

    Jean

    I have no perfect way of dealing with this virus. The “science” is really simple stay away from infected people and if one is infected stay away from others.

    However, I do believe the wrong way to approach it is massive draconian lockdowns and cause more human carnage than the daily death count we keep reading. I also mentioned many times and in other ways, risk management is the burden of leadership.

    You want to engage in things very few of us have control over and then make it political. You and others have the gall to slam Trump while giving a pass and ignoring the carnage to lives, property and health the decisions of various Governors, Mayors and leadership that have caused. Clearly these people, the Mayor of Portland for one, have failed in their moral and fiduciary responsibility to those they represent.

    There’s no meat nor even a bun any anything you write, just more wind. And I admit most of my complaining is the same. Just killing time while the world literally burns around us. At least I’m honest about it.

    Maybe it’s because we are all frustrated and seem to have zero effect on anything.

  223. Duane. I suspect the next era in the Church may very well contain a pietist element, and maybe a rejection of the superficial in favor of renewed traditions.

  224. Em says:

    Good to see MLD’s logic posted again ….. even if i can’t “amen” every word. 😇

  225. Duane Arnold says:

    Nathan Priddis

    A “rejection of the superficial” would be a first good step…

  226. Bride of Christ says:

    Muff Potter, Thank you for your service and may God bless you.

  227. Mike E. says:

    MM—“No one who is on record, giving their name and details, has personally heard Trump say those ugly things.” Wish to play semantics do you? You’re obviously sophisticated. So let’s talk about something we both understand. Journalism uses sources on and off the record and anonymous all the time. It’s part of the profession. So if these folks won’t go on record with their names, it’s not logical to state they don’t exist, or that the fact they won’t go on record proves they are lying. They do exist. They are real people. And they made these statements about what Trump said. Anyway, it’s obvious from Trump’s statements about McCain and others he doesn’t respect the sacrifices of military troops or their families. He in fact does not comprehend the sacrifices. And how could he?

  228. bob1 says:

    There was even a Fox news reporter who’s verified that Trump said these horrible things. Not to mention AP, CNN and maybe one other.

    I worked in journalism and PR during my career. I can tell you, none of these reporters/editors, including the Atlantic editor,, is going to give up their careers for a false story. Doesn’t matter how much they hate or like Trump. He’s not that important in the long run, anyway. But these
    careers are.

  229. bpb1 says:

    Trump’s Bad Marriage with the Military Has Finally Exploded

    In a way, it’s too bad for Trump that he doesn’t have the discipline to shut his yapper about things. But this is what happens when you try and make the presidency all about the one in office. His opinions are his downfall, IMHO.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/05/trumps-bad-marriage-with-military-has-finally-exploded/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-g-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

  230. Michael says:

    “EL PASO, Texas (AP) — A 2-year-old boy locked in detention wants to be held all the time. A few girls, ages 10 to 15, say they’ve been doing their best to feed and soothe the clingy toddler who was handed to them by a guard days ago. Lawyers warn that kids are taking care of kids, and there’s inadequate food, water and sanitation for the 250 infants, children and teens at the Border Patrol station.”
    https://apnews.com/46da2dbe04f54adbb875cfbc06bbc615

    No country that does this is either great or blessed…

  231. Jean says:

    Michael,

    In your estimation, does Trump maintain that policy regarding children at the boarder to curry favor with his voter base, or does his voter base support Trump’s policy because it’s what he believes internally is best for America?

  232. Michael says:

    Jean,

    It would literally take a book to back up what I have to say about your question.
    Trumps border policies are not just extreme, they are something we haven’t seen to this degree before…they are intentionally cruel.
    The policies are a reflection of the character of the President and those he leans on for direction on these matters, especially the incomprehensibly evil Stephen Miller.
    His base has been led to believe that migrants and those that seek asylum are invaders set on criminality and the public trough.
    If God hears the cries of children and the oppressed…and if He judges the oppressors…make your own application.

  233. Michael says:

    I will add that when I hear that this President and his party are defenders of Christianity, I only hear the sound of goats breaking wind…

  234. Michael says:

    I do not speak much to these matters anymore except to God and the church I pastor lest they be condemned at the judgment of the sheep and goats… “when did we not care for you, Lord”?…

  235. Mike E. says:

    Thanks Michael for reminding us all of the incredible cruelty being perpetrated by our government against these poor human beings. The hunger, the disease, the sanitation issues, nearly pale to the emotional and spiritual damage being done to the souls and psyches of these poor abused people. They will literally never get over it. It’s unconscionable to support a system perpetrating this kind of atrocity. May God have mercy on these poor.

  236. Michael says:

    Mike E,

    “They will literally never get over it”
    No, they won’t.
    They will be the next generation of terrorists.

  237. bob1 says:

    Michael @ 5:00

    I damn near fell off my chair with laughter.

  238. Michael says:

    bob1,

    I kid because I care… 🙂

  239. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mike E – I sent the Pope an email saying “hey Frank, you need to speak up about gossip – the tribe is getting it wrong.”
    He said he would, I just didn’t expect it so soon. 🙂

  240. CM says:

    Michael,

    In addition to the actions Trump has taken on the border, Trump and minions are making it harder, more expensive, and more complicated for those immigrants who actually do it right way:

    https://reason.com/2020/08/27/trumps-staged-naturalization-ceremony-does-not-make-him-a-friend-of-immigrants/

    Maybe someone should strip Trump’s former model/soft porn movie star current wife of her citizenship and deport her for working under the table as model while here in the US on a tourist visa.

  241. MM says:

    CM

    You have just written what are probably the most disgusting and degrading posts ever here on PP. You have lowered this to nothing more than a Twitter feed.

    At best very sad.

  242. CM says:

    MM,

    There is evidence that Melania worked under the table under a tourist visa. Under the vastly expanded under Trump “Operation Second Look” as is referenced in the link, Melania would be subject to the SAME removal of of citizenship and deportation as those targeted. But you da*m well know that Melania will NEVER be targeted, as in Trump’s mind only naturalized citizens originally from sh*thole countries (i.e not European) will be the targets of this. But go ahead and continue to genuflect towards your Cheeto Jesus.

  243. MM says:

    CM

    You know what, if I was anywhere near you when spoke about my or anyone isles wife in the manner you have here,…

    There’s no way a person who claims Christian faith can justify your fowl and disgusting words.

  244. MM says:

    That’s “else’s”

    The point stands, clean it up!

  245. Em says:

    CM, you do need a time out… need to cleat your head and emotions … everybody can push themselves beyond their limit and it dure looks like you have …. ?

  246. Em says:

    cleat? Oooh no clear your head, don’t cleat it! ! ! 😲
    dure? nope sure looks
    Guess i need a time out, too. 😊

  247. Michael says:

    CM,

    Your points (with which I have sympathy) are lost in your choice of verbiage.

  248. CM says:

    What part I said was not true?

    Melania did work under the table:

    https://www.timesleader.com/news/604094/melania-modeled-in-us-prior-to-getting-work-visa

    And yes Melania did pose nude for a French men’s magazine in the late 1990s. Most Christians consider men’s magazines to be porn right?

    And yes Melania was a model.

    MM: Bring it on….Anyways, the pictures of Melania nude do not lie. A simple Google search will turn up a July 30th, 2016 NY Post article to confirm that.

    What is it? All you Trump Kool-Aid drinkers think that Melania was the sweet, innocent lady who tamed the wild partying and whoring Donald Trump? She is a crook and fraud just like Donald and the rest of the Trump Crime Family.

  249. Xenia says:

    CM, you are not very self-aware, are you? 🙂

  250. CM says:

    Tell meMM,

    Ar we supposed to give John Gotti’s wife a break, how about Imelda Marcos? Should we start a fawning over Melania like people do over Eva Peron? The same so-called Christians were more than happy to tear down Hillary for Clinton’s antics in the 1990s, but react quite differently when Trump’s future ex-wife #3 gets criticized? I bet you were one of those who said “character counts” back then, but conveniently ignore it for your Cheeto Jesus. So cry me a river.

  251. Michael says:

    CM,
    I don’t have the time to mediate unnecessary strife.
    If you can’t speak in a manner that promotes civil discussion you won’t be speaking here at all.
    I never want to read the term “Cheeto Jesus”here again.

  252. CM says:

    Xenia,

    Actually more misanthropic rather than a lack of self-awareness…

  253. Xenia says:

    CM, I know you are talking to MM but I’ll speak for myself and probably a LOT of other people planning to vote for Trump.

    I do not like Mr. Trump. I spent 3 years here on this blog declaring what a terrible person I think he is. I have not changed my mind about any of that. I think is family is a bunch of ghoulish grifters. Part of me really, I mean REALLY, wants to see them out of the White House and out of our lives. Part of me wants to gloat over the possibility. The fact that after all this I still intend to vote for him demonstrates how much I hate the plan the Dems have for me and my family. Note carefully: I did not say I hated anyone as a person but I do hate most of what the Dems have come to stand for.

  254. Jim says:

    We need to have a special PP trophy for those who are desperate for attention.

  255. Jean says:

    Xenia,

    After a previous post by you similar to your comment at 2:35, I perused Biden’s campaign website. I want to thank you for motivating me to put in some work to compare and contrast the candidates based on concrete plans/record with respect to a variety of important topics.

    On his website, Biden posted a variety of plans that he has for the country if he is elected. While I did not support all of Biden’s plans, I found myself in agreement with him on the majority of his plans, and in comparison to Trump’s record on the same topics, I find more in common with Biden than with Trump. On the issue of character, leadership and honesty, I find myself drawn to Biden over Trump.

  256. Jim says:

    Jean,

    It would not be an insult, but rather an accurate descriptor to say that you’re clearly progressive. You did not recently examine Biden’s platform, compare with Trump’s track record, and make a decision.

    Your posts here over the last couple of years are a record of sorts. You were always going to vote for the DEM nominee over Trump, or any other GOP candidate. It’s disingenuous to imply otherwise.

  257. Jean says:

    Jim,

    I’m definitely progressive, proudly progressive, but also a capitalist. People who have read my comments over the years also know I’m a capitalist and one who favors a meritocracy based on a level playing field. I strongly disfavor the regressive policies of the GOP. Libertarian Philosophy is less than regressive IMO.

    I did recently check Biden’s site to see if the description Xenia gave about the Democrats applied to Biden. She made it sound as if the Democrats are out to destroy America. I was pleased to read that for the most part Biden is a traditional Democratic.

    I also believe that there are a good number of first world, democratic, prosperous, industrialized, educated nations, which without universal AR-15s, but with universal healthcare, seem to enjoy a lot more peace and harmony than we currently are.

    So I’m not afraid of cleaning up the air and water ways, of raising taxes on the top 10 %, of strengthening the ACA, Social Security and Medicare, of protecting hibernating female bears with their cubs in their dens from hunters, salmon fisheries from miners, and ensuring that all our children have access to high quality education. Count me in..

  258. Jim says:

    That’s all good, Jean. Believe what you believe and vote accordingly with no judgement from me. But any hint that your decision to vote dem over gop is recent seems disingenuous. I don’t understand what you’re trying to do.

    Perhaps I read your post incorrectly.

  259. Jean says:

    Jim, you said this weekend that you enjoy baiting people. That’s fine with me; I get you. But it gave me the chance to be transparent about what I believe. So I suppose I should thank you.

    By the way, and mark my words, the latest iteration of the gun rights movement with bands of roving interstate vigilantes and self proclaimed militias, who without the invitation of state and local officials just decide to show up at protests is not going to bring peace or order or safety to anyone.

  260. Jim says:

    Jean,

    I’m not baiting you, and I don’t give a rip what you think about guns. I’m not sure what they have to do with our conversation.

    Be honest. In 2018, was there a greater than zero percent chance that you would vote for Trump in 2020? Of course not.

    Again, nothing wrong with that, but this “I’ve examined the candidates” bit doesn’t fly. You are consistently partisan here on PP.

  261. Jean says:

    “In 2018, was there a greater than zero percent chance that you would vote for Trump in 2020?”

    Honestly, yes there was. I can’t put a date on it, but Trump had the opportunity to be a good president. He could have earned my vote for re-election.

    But he has become more extreme as his presidency has progressed. I used to think no single President could break our society, but now I think he just might. Have you heard or read what he just said today about our current acting military generals? I can’t think of better gifts a President could give to America’s enemies than Trump’s unforced errors.

  262. Jim says:

    Jean,

    Have you ever voted for a republican presidential candidate?

  263. Jean says:

    Jim, I appreciate your interest in my personal life. If you want to know me better, I authorize Michael to give my personal email privately.

  264. CM says:

    Jim seems to enjoy baiting people. Jim also needs to understand that some may tear him a new orifice if he persists. Jim never did read what I replied when he baited me too much since Michael removed it. Suffice it to say, yes you deserved it, and If you and Michael must know, I was far too gentle.

  265. Jim says:

    CM,

    Had I read it, I probably would have said, “good one”. Keyboard badassery doesn’t instill fear in the hearts of men, and most of us are amused by it. I will heed your warning though, because your extra-special form of keyboard prowess might bring me to tears.

  266. Jim says:

    CM,

    As a fellow libertarian, you should be laughing with me at the TDS sometimes displayed here.

  267. Anon says:

    So…before the 2016 election, the current POTUS actually hired a black man to play Obama (“Fauxbama), so Trump could ritualistically belittle and fire him

    Yowza. Now, there’s one sick puppy.

  268. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    You guys have better recollections of the 2016 campaign than I do. All I remember is Obama & BIDEN using the FBI, CIA & NSA to spy on American citizens leading up to an opposing candidates campaign.
    Talk about BIDEN and paranoia!

  269. Jean says:

    No citizen should be above the law.

    There should be no safe harbors for would be traitors or colluders with foreign government interferers in American elections.

    The bipartisan Senate report documented contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian government operatives.

    The FBI had a solemn duty to investigate.

  270. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Such nonsense. Where do you get your foreign policy information – comic books?
    Why did the fake the information for the FISA warrant if it was so clear?
    Why did they commission foreign agents to produce the Steele dossier?
    Why the slight of hand to interfere with a political campaign? What was BIDEN covering up with this misdirection play of the FBI, CIA & NSA?

  271. CM says:

    Jim,

    TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) and let us not forget Trump Reprobate Syndrome (TRS) which is equal and opposite to TDS. That does not get as much publicity and suffice it to say, when I do call people on the TRS and their worship of the Orange Dear Leader, I get called every epithet in the book, like libtard, communist, socialist, leftie, Marxist, etc. Like those Kool-Aid drinkers even know what those terms mean any more than they know what is conservatism, libertarianism, or what a Constitutionalist is in reality (as Trump is sure as h*ll is none of those). Which is why I have been exiled to the political wilderness.

  272. CM says:

    MLD,

    Do you really want to go down this road? The bottom line is this, there was a follow-up IG report as there were a number other FISA warrant applications involving US citizens that were ALSO screwed up. Which means it is a systemic issue going back decades? Yet why is it only the Trumpistas whine and b*tch when their guy gets pinched and ONLY look at the political angle?

    https://reason.com/2020/03/31/the-fbi-is-routinely-screwing-up-fisa-warrants-targeting-americans/

    And all those idiots in Congress on TEAM RED and TEAM BLUE as well as TEAM Trump, and their talking heads and pundits in the media complain about the abuses, yet when it comes to actually passing the legislation to prevent it from happening again, they don’t bother. Instead they pass legislation reauthorizing or extending it. They did this in Dec 2019 AFTER the Horowitz IG report came out, and it was extended with NO changes to it (and Trump signs it). POS Congress critters like Gaetz, Nunes, Schiff, Nadler, etc. are just doing a bunch of political theater.

    Never mind that libertarians and a few congressmen like Justin Amash have been pointing out the inherent problems with FISA, the Patriot Act, and the like for years and introducing legislation to deal with the abuses and trampling of the BOR.

  273. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    CM it’s too bad that your hate for Trump trumps any concern you should have for America in the matter of our government spying on its own citizen.
    I know it is beyond your attention span but check out Edward Snowden on Joe Rogen Oct 2019 – close to a 3 hour discussion.
    You think it is OK, I don’t – but that makes America – and we each have our one vote

  274. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    When Obama and his buddy BIDEN chased Edward Snowden into exile, it was probably for the sole purpose to continue their spying on American political enemies.
    So how is BIDEN not an enemy of America?

  275. Michael says:

    “Jim also needs to understand that some may tear him a new orifice if he persists.”

    Last warning.

    You’re speaking to my friend and brother… in my house…and this is my house…it will not be tolerated.

  276. Mike E. says:

    You wish to talk about TDS? The true, actual TDS is deranged people who see with their eyes but do not believe, hear with their own ears but do not believe, and simply make excuses when confronted with reality. For example, I recently made a statement about Trump calling military members and veterans who sacrificed their lives losers and suckers and asked how anyone can still support him? I literally got one answer, and with all due respect, that answer was a little lame. Perhaps those with actual TDS have no answer to my question.

  277. Xenia says:

    Here’s what I suggest: Assume the Christian you are debating has good motives. Think the best of them, not the worst.

    Jean is going to vote for the Democrats this year. He has studied their platform and believes that their plans comport well with his Christian conscience. He cares about health care, immigration, wildlife and many other worthy issues. He believes these things fall into the category of caring for the least of God’s creation and you know what? I agree with him. He is willing to overlook some of the Dems’ less attractive ideas because he believes their good outweighs their bad.

    I myself have listened to the Dem’s platform and find much to like and much to dislike. I look at the GOP platform and find some things I really like and some things, not so much. I, personally, believe the GOP good outweighs the bad. This is a decision I have also made, based on my Christian conscience. I am not 100 percent happy with it but wobbling and waffling was driving me nuts.

    I do not consider Jean (or Michael) to be any less a Christian because they have come to their conclusions, based on their Christian consciences. They believe, with some justification, that they are following the teachings of Christ.

    Likewise, the GOP people also believe they are following the teachings of Christ as regard to moral purity. I confess that I am tired of see evangelicals equated with knuckle-dragging hicks.

    I think we should appreciate the desire to follow Christ in both groups and quit the name-calling, mocking, and disparaging remarks. Genuine Christianity is fading in this country and we need each other. I need Jean and MLD, both. Let’s not say things to each other that are so harsh that we have burned our bridges.

    Think the best of your brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Praying without ceasing.

    Love, Xenia

  278. Em says:

    As i pray for Trump, this morning i pray for the “Phoenix peeps”
    Father give us strength of mind and body and give us wisdom and discernment. Give us forbearance and boldness to do Your will… Above all, Father, Your will be done
    God keep

  279. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Xenia and Em! Very good words. Very rare attitude these days also, but encouraging.

  280. CM says:

    MLD,

    I have been concerned about FISA, the national surveillance state, and Patriot Act and its impact on individual liberties and the Bill of Rights for a long time. Long before Trump, and long before Snowden. All the initial Snowden releases only confirmed my worst suspicions. So get a clue.

    The problem is you fail to see is that the flaws are systemic and have been there from the beginning. But apparently you only started to give a sh*t when your boy Trump was pinched. And you conveniently ignore the hypocrisy of Trump and his followers who cry abuse when they ENABLED it and continued it via their inaction on any attempts at rollback of the surveillance state. All I can say to nice of you to hop on the bandwagon after your boy got pinched. Better effing late than never.

    More libertarian minded people have been sounding the warning for decades and certainly at least as long as when the Patriot Act was authorized in the early 2000’s. But then I suspect all the stuff pre-Snowden and all the reauthorizations of FISA, Section 702, and the Patriot Act by the SAME congress critters who b*tched about the abuses against Trump since then escaped your attention.

    But then I can say with the clear conscience that I have not voted for either D or R for POTUS since 2004. And 2020 will be the same. Can you say that? Or do you vote for either the Giant Douche or the Turd Sandwich every time?

  281. Jean says:

    CM,

    I love you and appreciate your wit and intelligence. But having been on this blog for many years, I need to ask you to pull back on the colorful metaphors and vulgar language. I’ve been in the penalty box with Michael before, and I can tell that you are getting close to triggering a penalty yourself. I would hate to lose your voice here, because it is well informed and entertaining. I wish I had your energy, but please chill a tad.

  282. CM says:

    MLD,

    Then how do explain that a GOP Congress and Trump reauthorized the exact same statutes to continue to enable said spying with NO changes? And then turn around complain about the spying?

    https://reason.com/2018/04/29/republicans-love-federal-snoop/

    In case you are that obtuse, Reason.com is hardly a leftist, liberal, or pro-Biden site. If anything, they excoriate the left just as much if not more so than the right.

  283. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    CM – First, I have voted many times over the years across party line. Heck, I voted for Barbara Boxer one year just to reward her for voting against the invasion of Iraq which I considered a crime.
    I do not defend the Trump admin renewing any surveillance nor the Patriot Act which I also consider criminal.
    The thing with Snowden was when Obama and BIDEN were caught in 2013 he vowed to fix it – but instead he and BIDEN supercharged it to use against Trump.

    Trust me, I am anti federalist, anti war and want our military budget cut back by 1/3rd.

  284. directambiguity says:

    I like what Xenia had to say about thinking the best of each other and not the worst but I agree with Jim that Jean’s post seems disingenuous and was only posted to counter Xenia’s thoughtful comment on why she had changed her mind and was voting for Trump.

    I think Trump only really had to get the 4 or 5 million people that were sitting out the elections because they couldn’t vote for Obama, McCain, or Romney and his campaign (more sophisticated than people thought) specifically targeted and got them to come out and vote for him. Obviously with some exceptions like CM…

    I think Trump still has those people and even more, we’ll see.

  285. Jim says:

    My leader is Jesus. I pledge allegiance to no politician, but I am ruled by them because they hold the monopoly of violence. I’m not going to jail over taxes or guns or anything else they want to take. My “citizen of one Kingdom, subject in another” view can skew the way I look at brethren who get excited in either direction about candidates or our ruling class, as I think that they’re all sociopaths. Perhaps internal 9and sometimes external) scoffing is a defense mechanism I use to stay sane.

    I understand that political discussion will continue here, and that it will get emotional.

    I resolve to stop trolling. Sorry all.

  286. CM says:

    MLD,

    Trump has not fixed the Snowden stuff either (and I seem to recall him and his allies saying something about fixing it too):

    https://reason.com/2020/05/28/surveillance-bill-yanked-after-trump-tweets-veto-threat-will-it-be-changed-for-better-or-worse/

    From the article above:

    “There are reasons to be concerned about whether Trump actually wants stronger surveillance protections for all Americans. He rails regularly against FISA laws and the FISA Court because of the surveillance and investigation of his campaign staff in 2016, but when given the opportunity, he signed his name to a law that actually expanded the authority of the federal government to snoop on Americans.

    Since signing that legislation in 2018, an investigation by the Department of Justice Office of Inspector General showed that not only did the FBI omit important information from its warrant application to snoop on former Trump aide Carter Page, the FBI regularly screws up its FISA warrant applications targeting any American it investigates.”

  287. CM says:

    MLD,

    Interestingly, the 9th Circuit touched on this Snowden metadata collection in a recent decision:

    https://reason.com/2020/09/03/nsa-ruling-reminds-us-that-sacrificing-civil-liberties-in-the-name-of-national-security-is-a-bipartisan-impulse/

    If you read the article, you will see the government lawyers in the Trump administration made the same arguments to the 9th Circuit that the Obama administration did to the 2nd Circuit back in 2015.

    “Using the same needle-in-a-haystack argument that was deployed by the Obama administration, the government’s lawyers maintained that everyone’s phone records are “relevant to an authorized investigation” because searching them might reveal useful clues.”

    What say you to the fact that Trump DID not fix it EITHER? Especially when the Trump and the GOP controlled both the Oval Office and both chambers of Congress. So if you are going to complain about Obama and Biden promising to fix it and not doing so, then you need to complain about Trump for doing the very same thing. But go ahead and naively believe that Trump has been draining the swamp…

  288. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    CM, I am not in support of Trump’s position either. Surveillance of American citizens by the NSA etc needs to be against the law no matter what – no FISA warrants, no permissions at all.

  289. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Snowden needs a pardon – he needs to be brought back as a national hero – put him on the $20 bill and make him the permanent head of the NSA.

  290. CM says:

    I agree about Snowden. But that will never happen. Not unless there is a President Justin Amash.

  291. CM says:

    Speaking of Justin Amash….

    https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1303349121940586496

    “Vetoes tell you a lot about a president’s priorities. Donald Trump has issued only eight vetoes as president. FIVE of the eight are vetoes of legislation that would prevent him from transferring weapons of war or engaging in military hostilities without congressional approval.”

    Here is another Tweet by Amash:

    “Nearly four years in and Donald Trump has not ended a single endless war. Has any president ever talked so much about ending wars and done so little to end them? Returning troop levels to about where they were when he took office is not an accomplishment. Bring them home.”

    Another lie by the conman in chief. Here is a hint: If one doesn’t recognize that Trump is a conman, you are the mark.

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