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313 Responses

  1. bob1 says:

    A great quote from the great Abraham Lincoln:

    “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”

  2. Em says:

    Amen, Abe, amen

    Seen it and someimes it is a downhill slide

  3. JimmieT says:

    I was 10 years into being a Follower of Christ but still had a lot of resentment towards my Dad because of the ungodly behavior I experienced from him growing up. So God got my attention and asked who sinned more? My Dad’s sins against me or my sins against God. It didn’t me long to realize the answered. That’s the day complete and total forgiveness towards my Dad took place. Our relationship completely took a turn at that moment.

  4. Bride of Christ says:

    Jimmie T., I think you meant to post that on the other thread – the one about fathers! God bless you for sharing that with us. Your father and you have both been blessed immeasurably by your Godly wisdom! Isn’t God good?

  5. Em says:

    As Michael noted elsewhere on this site, family dynamics can be complicated and confusing….
    Good to read Jimmie T’s account… Some parents don’t mean to fail as parents – they try to shepherd, but aren’t very good at it…. Past examples? Possibly
    But there is such a thing as mean people and, sadly, it doesn’t seem to affect their ability to procreate…. Hopefully, a rare specie of human

  6. Dread says:

    Rocky Mountain National Park is burning. We left yesterday morning before evacuations began. The park was surrounded by what became 400000 acres of wildfire in three fires and growing. One fire jumped the continental divide – died only to be revived and reach toward Estes Park. Creation groans so do we.

  7. Michael says:

    It’s terrifying…prayers for those living in the area…

  8. Dread says:

    This devastating story
    https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/23/lyle-marylin-hileman-died-east-troublesome-fire-grand-lake-colorado-wildfire/
    According to the report they died in the bunker in each other’s arms.

  9. Dread says:

    I saw a report of a man who drove through road blocks compelling them to leave. They would not. Of course live news can be errant but I kept searching today for an outcome and it matches. Very sad but I also understand.

  10. Michael says:

    There were more than a few in my neighborhood who didn’t evacuate…makes it really stressful on the authorities.
    The tragedies around these fires are many and go on long after the fires are out.

  11. Em says:

    i have family in the area burning in Colorado now… last report they were fine, but the fire is devastating for all and yes, the Parks are taking a hit, too.
    Creation does seem to be groaning now… humanity also
    God keep and thankful that Pastor Dread and his family are safe

  12. Mike E. says:

    I simply cannot resist posting these words of our great 16th president. He spoke these words at his first inaugural address, pleading for reconciliation. These words are the great President Lincoln speaking to us today.

    “I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” From his words to God’s ears.

  13. Just scanned the headlines over at the SBC rag. Saw the usual lather.
    https://www.christianpost.com/news/franklin-graham-sbc-leaders-pope-same-sex-civil-union.html
    Based on the quote in CP, and without further context, I don’t see any problems with Pope Francis’s remarks.
    .”..Homosexual people have a right to be in a family. They are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it,”..

    This statement appears to be narrowly focused on civil unions, housing, employment, insurance, and the like.

  14. Jean says:

    Nathan,

    If the Pope said this from your quote, “Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it,” then he is is both antinomian and harming the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    He is antinomian and blaspheming by denying the law and the words of Christ, “until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

    He is harming the Gospel by confirming homosexuals in their sin by saying, among other things, they should not “be made miserable over it”. The law reveals sin. The knowledge of sin is a pre-requisite to reception of the Gospel.

    The second verse of the hymn, Amazing Grace:

    Twas grace that taught
    My heart to fear
    And grace my Fears relieved
    How precious did
    That grace appear
    The hour I first believed

    Would the Pope deny grace to the gay man?

    Now, I want to provide two caveats: (1) This is only my view; and (2) I believe the same problem exists in theologians who affirm no-cause divorce and/or unmarried heterosexual relationships.

  15. bob1 says:

    NP,

    Speaking of Xn Post — read a great article by the guy who was the former editor there, Napp Nazworth. Long piece, talked about all the pressure that was put on him to make the rag totally pro-Trump. He resigned, felt he had little choice. Fortunately for Mr. Nazworth, he has a PhD and was a poli science professor, so he wasn’t stuck there in Trump Hell.

    https://arcdigital.media/how-the-christian-post-sold-its-soul-for-trump-4294662f7781

  16. Dan from Georgia says:

    Christian Post is running articles on John Pipers post, but they are framing Piper’s post in a very dishonest and inaccurate way. They drunk the kool-aid like the Babylon Bee and CharismaNews.

  17. bob1 says:

    DFG,

    Not surprising at all. When a publication sells its soul by slanting articles, etc. to fit a preconceived POV and lose their independence like that, well, the rest is just sophistry.

    I haven’t read the Bee for a long time. Sorry to hear that news.

  18. Dan from Georgia says:

    bob1….the Bee’s change took place sometime this year or late last year. The CP’s first report on Piper’s blog post contained quite a lot of “scare quotes” in it…almost to the point of absurdity.

  19. Mike E. says:

    #PleaseSaveTheseChildren. THIS is truth…in their own words…This video not for the faint of heart. **Trigger Warning** Images of abused children ***Some profanity****

  20. Mike E. says:

    NOTE: I do NOT endorse the statement that if you support Trump, you don’t have a soul. I want to make that clear.

  21. Dread says:

    The kingdom of God is here.

  22. bob1. I feel it’s sort of weaponized reporting. When they want, they can really trash a newsmaker. But they clearly hold their fire on other individuals. It might be my imagination, but black pastors feel like one target group. I also wonder if select churches that possibly compete with SBC mega sites get targeted.

  23. Em says:

    I support Trump (the alternative duo being unthinkaable, if you appreciate a democratic Republic – IMHO ). AND i know i have a soul… 😻
    God keep… keep us all in wisdom and discernment

  24. bob1 says:

    Sadly, it appears other than Falwell, Jr. forced out at Liberty, nothing has really changed. It’s still an authoritarian administration. A lot of good folks who work there are even afraid to contact someone on the outside anonymously. We should be praying for these folks.

    “So many who bore the brunt of Falwell’s toxic leadership have never been heard. Silencing and intimidation have, sadly, been the legacy of LU over the last decade, increasingly so in the last few years.”

    https://thewayofimprovement.com/
    (2nd post down)

    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jerry-fallwell-jr-becki-giancarlo-granda-scandal-liberty-university-1075672/

  25. Em says:

    We should be praying, indeed.
    Adrian Rogers did some good teaching on prayer from Dniel chapter nine this morning…
    Has me wondering if my prayers are sincere or just “duty callls” to the Father’s Throne…. 🙏

  26. Jean says:

    Did Mr. Rogers suggest your prayers aren’t sincere Em? If he did, I would suggest to anyone to avoid him like a plague.

    Sincerity is not a trait of the heart than one can simply gin up in oneself. That is devilish and doesn’t go anywhere. Sincerity is a consequence of faith in a God who loves to hear the prayers of His children, who promises to listen and answer.

    A good preacher should be preaching the faithfulness and promises of God, if he desires his listeners to pray with sincerity, and not turn them in on themselves where doubt inevitably resides. IMO.

  27. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks for posting that Mike E (I did in fact watch it). Sick. Millstones anyone?

  28. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    As I traveled to church this morning, I flipped from oldies music to the local Christian station – which I never do. Listened to some guy named David Jeremiah from San Diego CA.
    Such a binding message – not one iota of grace. Walked into my church with a black cloud over my head.
    Pray for the people who sit in on his ministry – he may be Satan himself.

  29. Xenia says:

    Dear Em,

    Yes, sincerity does matter, as it says in the Scripture:

    The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

  30. Anon says:

    Really?

    David Jeremiah, spawn of Satan?

    Hahahahahahahahahha.

    The King of Hyperbole strikes again!!

  31. Xenia says:

    I know I said I wasn’t coming back til after the election but it will be a cold day in hell before I let the notion that Em would like to pray with sincerity is devilish to go unchallenged.

  32. Dan from Georgia says:

    I’ve heard of David Jeremiah…has some books in the now-defunct Christian bookstore chains. Never have listed to him or read his stuff, and sounds like I am fortunate. Lack of grace does indeed bind people.

  33. Jean says:

    LOL. What a news flash! The law of God matters.

    Let’s see where that leads when one relies on it for one’s relationship with God: “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Anon, do you know this David Jeremiah? If not Satan himself, perhaps just a demon with a pulpit.

  35. Anon says:

    Actually, MLD, I’ve interviewed him. He’s basically a Dallas Sem grad, dispensational but it was clear that he’s not a wackadoodle, by any means.

    And, if you want to be taken seriously, cut the demon crap.

  36. Jean says:

    At least with the semi-Pelagian Gospel, “Do your best, and God will do the rest,” grace and God’s promises get some credit. I just don’t know how much sincerity constitutes my best, but at least it’s less than 100%.

  37. Duane Arnold says:

    Em

    I pray when I don’t feel like it…
    I pray when I do feel like it…
    I pray when I’m in a panic …
    I pray when I’m calm…
    God hears all the prayers. It’s his faithfulness that’s important, not mine…

  38. Xenia says:

    Em (and I) wishes to be sincere in her prayers to the Lord. She (we) are not interested in vain repetitions; we want to mean what we say., even if we aren’t 100 percent perfect. If you want to call this semi-Pelagianism or of the devil, I have nothing further to say to you.

  39. Xenia says:

    The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

    Believe the Scriptures.

  40. Jean says:

    “And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.”
    ‭‭
    Believe this one too.

  41. Jean says:

    If someone wants more sincerity in prayer, and who doesn’t?, go to where grace is freely given. Go where the Gospel is preached; go where the Eucharist is given in both kinds; go to Confession and Absolution; and pray for what you seek.

    But you won’t find sincerity through works of the law or by listening to the law, because through the law comes the knowledge of sin. And you can’t generate your own sincerity, as if you have the power to believe.

  42. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think Jean’s last paragraph @3:02 is what I was getting from this guy D. Jeremiah – the false notion that you will get closer to God by being driven inward on your own sin or on your lack of holiness – which is hamster wheel theology.
    No message that Jesus has disassembled the hamster wheel.
    Our sincerity does not matter – it’s Jesus’ sincerity to accomplish the work of the Father that matters.

  43. Xenia says:

    MLD, I am only talking about prayer, not salvation. I see “insincere “ prayer as reciting words without paying attention to the what I’m saying. In my world, it’s easy to read off pages of a prayer book while my mind is on what I am planning for dinner. When I didn’t use printed prayers, same problem as I had a rote system even then. I don’t think rushing through prayer in a completely inattentive manner is effective, fervent prayer. Slow down and mean what you are saying. This is all I mean by sincere prayer. Otherwise, what’s the point?

  44. Nancy Holmes says:

    Everybody sounds kinda cranky–quibbling over “exact” wording… Maybe we all need to take a nap and then have a bowl of ice cream…

  45. Em says:

    Jean @ 1:29… The late Pastor Rogers’ text was Daniel 9
    What i ponder from a pastor’s teaching is my own rabbit trail….
    I do pray somewhat formulaic, but always in the name of Jesus, the only begotten, obedient Son of God. The one Who carried the Father’s integrity through flawlessly and paid an unimaginable price to offer us Redemption.
    Indeed how shall we escaoe, IF we neglect so great a salvation?

  46. Em says:

    Jean, a mustard seed is programmed = total faith
    Thank you, Xenia… I intend to continue praying. 🙏. I think i am Jean’s dispensational fall guy, but God and i have travelled over 69 years now…. Jean doesnt shake me much. .😘

  47. Em says:

    Nancy, jamoca almond fudge? (I’ve already napped today. 😁 )

  48. Mike E. says:

    Prayer’s an interesting subject. To me, humans’ feeble thoughts and words to the Almighty Creator of all that is, is really kinda difficult to take seriously. Not that prayer is silly, it’s instituted by God and He wants us to do it, but I just find the thought of me relating my inanity to Him somewhat humorous. Jesus gave us the example on how to pray. Pretty short and straightforward. I think He hears it all, sincere or insincere. Not that He doesn’t care, but He remembers we are dust. The most beautiful thing to me is that our King and High Priest AND the third Person of the Godhead are both interceding for us to the Father. Thank God. I think we’ll be ok, saints. It’s ALL of grace.

  49. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Denial, I think my comment is for anything in the Christian life – do I look inward or to the promises of God, regardless how I feel.

    It sounds to me that it’s not enough to toss up a prayer and count on Jesus to hear and answer.

    I take Dr Rogers’position to be to look inward – you may not be doing it right. I pray in the car and may get distracted and lose concentration. I think God gets it and handles it just as well as a prayer that I close my eyes real tight.

    I would hate to see people leave his sermon in tears thinking they were a failure at prayer.

  50. Nancy Holmes says:

    Mike E

    Here is an interesting article I just read which dovetails with the video that you sent, without condemning those who disagree.

  51. Em says:

    Mike E @ 5:16. Amen… Amen to every word….. Without grace, without the Son and the Holy Spirit back up, us gentiles wouldn’t have a prayer

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Denial = Xenia above. I need to get that as the default.

  53. Em says:

    Our Lutes here miss the point…
    Pray “without ceasing?” Yes. But, while likely written to the Jewish Believer, i think James 5:16 applies to us all. … 🙆

  54. Em says:

    BTW… Don’t think the late Pastor Rogers ever earned a doctorate degree

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, as a non dispensationalist, I don’t think there are different standards, commands or teaching for Jewish believers vs “regular” believers – especially in the area of prayer.

    I could be wrong.

  56. Mike E. says:

    Em..No worries. Our Father cares about a bird that falls to the ground. The birds praise Him in song, because that’s how He made them. We have been created a little lower than the angels. I think John 4 is instructive. The Savior told the woman God is actively seeking people who will worship Him in spirit and truth. He tells us He dwells in the High and holy place AND with those of a humble and contrite spirit. Think about it. If no one ever prayed, His will would be accomplished anyway. So I think prayer is much more than talking. Just points to ponder. Sorry got a little long winded there.

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Also I probably differ as to who is the righteous man.
    To me the righteous man is the man God has made righteous – the Christian – not a person who makes himself righteous.

    In other words, the Christian has an automatic advantage in prayer over the non Christian – who actually has no hope in prayer.

  58. Jean says:

    “Without grace, without the Son and the Holy Spirit back up, us gentiles wouldn’t have a prayer”

    and

    “But, while likely written to the Jewish Believer, i think James 5:16 applies to us all”

    Just so we’re on the same page, what books of the Bible Em are written for Gentile Christians?

  59. Mike E. says:

    Nancy H…Fantastic article. Thank you for sharing. Along the same lines, I suggest a reading of this speech by Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., who said, “America is essentially a dream.” BTW, what was done to LTC Vindman was a travesty and a deep injustice. MLK speech: https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/the-american-dream-july-4th-speech-transcript-martin-luther-king-jr/amp

  60. Em says:

    Jean and MLD, while Paul’s letters were written to specific churches, i have no doubt they apply to us all – perhaps in varying applications. Nuanced a bit, but truth is truth

    MLD @ 6:40… Yeo

  61. Nancy Holmes says:

    Mike E on 6:53 pm

    Awesome speech!! I had never read it before and have only heard snippets of it in recording. Thanks for turning me onto it. I wish MLK jr had lived longer.

  62. I’m not sure what this means, but my 10 year uld son says what I call “personal” prayers. My 8 year old daughter plows through The Lord’s Prayer, in order to get done. Not to judge them Abel and Cain (I admit I don’t pray enough as I should), however… maybe this is my fault.

  63. josh hamrick says:

    Don’t let MLD fool you. He is a big Adrian Rogers fan.

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    OK, I watched the Adrian Rogers message Em brought up yesterday.
    https://www.lwf.org/sermons/video/a-prayer-for-america-2311

    One point I would like to make is that Rogers is speaking to the crisis in America – this message is probably 30 years old – same old, same old — elections change nothing – but that is for a different thread.

    This message is almost 100% law and if there is any gospel, it is only implied and not stated. Pastor Rogers has made Daniel’s prayer to be prescriptive (how you must pray) and not descriptive (the way Daniel prayed).
    I think people should just pray their thanksgiving and supplications to God as they would normally ask anyone. A lesson on prayer, specifically this sermon comes across to me as “how can I better manipulate God to see things my way.”

    To Josh’s point, I do and always have found Rogers to be an engaging speaker.

  65. josh hamrick says:

    Thanks for the link! I’ll check it out too.

    I think this kind of sermon critique is much healthier than looking at one from recently. Rogers died in ’05, so this is at least 20 years old. Enough time has passed to be unbiased in critique.

  66. josh hamrick says:

    Eww. Couldn’t make it through that one. Even ole Adrian served up a stinker every now and again.

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    To be clear, I am not discounting anything Rogers is saying. If one feels compelled to pray like Daniel as described in this message, that is just fine. However to say as Rogers is saying – “to get our prayers answered, we must…” I must object.

  68. josh hamrick says:

    I skipped through some more of it, and looked at the outline.

    Some of it might have been suitable for a small group study. He stuck close to the scripture, some practical instruction on fasting…etc.

    I don’t do the Lutheran Law / Gospel divide, but in this case MLD is mostly right. Lot of guilt trip in that sermon, and the relief for guilt? Do something. That leads to despair because I can never do enough.

  69. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – I was going to make a similar claim. This would be good for a classroom study – Let’s see what the Bible says about prayer and perhaps what we can apply to our lives. His style is good for lecture and he even tells them when to write notes in their Bibles.

    In Daniel 6 (I am teaching through Daniel on Fridays) Daniel opens his windows, faces east, gets on his knees and prays loud enough for his enemies to hear – are those requirements to have our prayers answered? Probably not. But you could teach it and suggest perhaps we should do it and see if it helps us focus better.

  70. Em says:

    For the record
    There is no teacher of Scripture that i know of that i would follow blindly (i wouldn’t make a good RC).
    The sermon by the late pastor Rogers that i commented on yesterday did seem to start a good discussion. And
    I still must ponder, are my prayers just a wave toward God or are they delivered at His Throne in awe… awe of His holiness and, yet, grace to hear my petition….
    No on my knees in front of an open window and very loud is not the point… 😏

  71. Jean says:

    There’s nothing crueler than ripping a text out of context to bludgeon the hearer.

  72. josh hamrick says:

    Em, I loved Adrian. In all honesty, MLD turned him on to me years ago, and I listened to a lot of his sermons for a few years. He was certainly used by God, and is still being fruitful 15 years after death. Didn’t love the one sermon linked, but like you said, no preacher gets it right 100%.

    I sometimes wonder if God hears my prayers, too. Every rare once in a while he will send a little clue that he still hears. That is rare for me, though.

  73. bob1 says:

    This is neither patriotic nor a church. More like just another far-right cult. Sad!

    “Seeking power in Jesus’ name: Trump sparks a rise of ‘Patriot Churches’”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/10/26/trump-christian-nationalism-patriot-church/

  74. Nancy Holmes says:

    I’m just reading this now. The cognitive dissonance is mind-boggling!!

  75. Dan from Georgia says:

    bob1…kinda flies in the face of “we’re electing a President, not a Pastor…”

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I can’t read the WaPo article – they want money – but, are their more “Patriotic Churches” in the day of Trump than there were in the days of Reagan and the Moral Majority or in the 50s to early 60s and the John Birch churches (Calvary Chapel being one before Chuck Smith got there.)?
    How are the numbers measured?

  77. bob1 says:

    Well, at least they’re being honest. 🙂 I guess.

  78. bob1 says:

    MLD,

    This is much, much deeper than Moral Majority stuff. I remember when churches would get newspapers close to Election Day saying these are
    the “Moral” issues you should vote on. What we’re dealing with these churches is much, much different.

    In these churches, there’s no separation of politics and worship. Everything is politicized. The pastor they profiled, well, let’s just say I wouldn’t wanna be him when the IRS comes calling! )

  79. bob1 says:

    From the Post piece:

    “The Patriot Churches belong to what religion experts describe as a loosely organized Christian nationalist movement that has flourished under President Trump.”

  80. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    bob 1, so who is the pastor they spoke of? Have we all heard his name?
    I have this idea that guys like him make noise but have no influence outside of his own church.

    In my town in NW AZ we have 55 churches. I have no idea what is going on in any of them and I think this is true all over.
    They may be raising the pitchforks but only within their 4 walls.

    So who is the guy so I can look him up?

  81. bob1 says:

    “The Republican party has become dramatically more illiberal in the past two decades and now more closely resembles ruling parties in autocratic societies than its former centre-right equivalents in Europe, according to a new international study.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/26/republican-party-autocratic-hungary-turkey-study-trump

  82. Jean says:

    bob1,

    The Republican Party has become this: “We are not going to control the pandemic.” – Chief of Staff to the POTUS, Mark Meadows.

    They’ve thrown in with Atlas, embracing the pseudo science of herd immunity and have been the first Western nation to waive the white flag. Is that a sign of strength? of leadership?

    Americans are going to suffer something fierce, but it will all be considered a righteous sacrifice to the anointed POTUS. It’s a rendering to Caesar of the vulnerable. Pro-death.

  83. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Dan from Georgia, thanks for the free link. I can rest easier knowing these Patriot Churches are 50 people in a barn.

    I have more issue with their hymnology, or lack of such. Here I Stand to Worship?? 😉

  84. Dread says:

    The press is not curious about Biden’s mental health, his policies or his shady son’s business favor. They are quite content to let him win without scrutiny. Will that change in a “Harris/Biden” presidency?

  85. Jean says:

    “The press is not curious about Biden’s mental health, his policies or his shady son’s business favor.”

    Fact check:

    “his policies” The press has been all over Biden’s positions regarding fracking and fossil fuels since the 2nd debate, and business press outlets are talking frequently about his tax proposals. The press frequently talks about Biden’s policies regarding combating the coronavirus, his views on climate change and and most especially on health insurance. False on that point.

    “Biden’s mental health” There is widespread acknowledgment in the press that Biden has a stutter. Many press refer to this as gaffs. False on that point too.

    “his shady son’s business favor.” First his son isn’t running for President anymore than Don Jr., Kushner or Ivanka are. I also reject your presupposition that his son is “shady.” But no doubt Giuliani will keep looking. LOL

    Dread, this election is a referendum on Trump’s miserable presidency. The people are looking at a “burn the house down” to get re-elected child-man who will say or do anything to indulge himself. He is the documented king of shady, prince of immorality, star of dishonesty, and the captain of abandoned ships.

    Biden is correct on the point that, if for no other reason, Trump has utterly failed in responsibility to lead this country through the worst health crisis in 100 years, which is not only killing and sickening our citizenry, but it is severely damaging our economy and the social fabric of our nation.

    I believe that a majority of Americans do not want a President that divides our own citizenry into patriots and enemies, into red and blue. He is sworn to serve and protect all Americans and to put our interests above his own, which is impossible for him to do. Many people took a chance on him, hoping he would rise to the occasion. But they’ve seen through almost 4 years that he won’t change.

    His in person rallies stimulate his base, but there is a huge number of Americans, and I would anticipate a majority, who see his ego trip rallies as the most irresponsible conduct that a politician could possibly do during a pandemic. Every day on the TV, when Americans see another rally, they think, “this guy is freaking nuts.” It’s an evil kind of nuts. Evil because he places his own constituents at risk and lulls them into complacency.

  86. BD. Why would the press need to question the Vice President’s, your’s or anyone’s mental state? You only question a person’s mental state when they exhibit abnormal activity.

  87. josh hamrick says:

    disclaimer – I am still a never-Trumper…

    Watch a clip from Biden in 2016 vs. a clip today. The difference is striking.

    Now, I don’t know how the press could comment on that other than “He’s Old!”.

    There is clearly an anti-Trump bias with most of the press, but he has been so combative with them from early on. You see the same in sports. If a guy is super nice to the press, he can get by with anything. If a guy is a little surly, they hound him his entire career, praying he will mess up.

  88. Michael says:

    “The press is not curious about Biden’s mental health, his policies or his shady son’s business favor. ”

    This amuses me…the kind of amusement I feel right before getting really irritated.

    “The press”… Isn’t Fox News running anti-Biden/pro Trump material 24/7 on all their channels?
    If no one is covering the story, how did it break and why is my social media full of this kind of story?

    If you look at media ratings…and I do…pro Trump conservative media has a much broader swath of the marketplace than the center or left.
    Much.

  89. bob1 says:

    “Why would the press need to question the Vice President’s, your’s or anyone’s mental state? You only question a person’s mental state when they exhibit abnormal activity.”

    Bingo!

  90. bob1 says:

    And hey, Trump supporters, don’t despair — Trump is actually winning!

    According to a new Trump University poll, he’s ahead in all 72 states.

    🙂

  91. Dread says:

    Jean

    Your fact checking is quite like most of the fact-checking for Biden. “Four more years of George uh ….” Press… inject Lopez here — OK Biden is decrying four more years of George Lopez – yes perish the thought.

  92. Jean says:

    Dread,

    Like I wrote earlier, the election is primarily a referendum to Trump. I don’t know who will win the election. But if Trump loses, it will be a national rejection of his indecency and failure of leadership, rather than a love affair with Biden.

    I, personally, would rather have a decent President, a decent human being, with a speech impediment, than an a**hole who is adept at insulting anyone who doesn’t support something he’s done or said.

  93. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Biden does not have a speech impediment – that is a cover for the dementia – my older brother has early onset dementia and I see the exact same traits in Biden. (a side note, his wife should be reprimanded for elder abuse)
    Go back to the videos of him verbally raping Anita Hill – no speech impediment there.

  94. Dread says:

    Jean

    “Come on man!”

  95. Jean says:

    Dread,

    If you’re looking for social media doctors and their diagnosis, I’m not the right guy for you.

    But I will put a question to the whole house, and I hope it’s one that people will reflect on:

    The USA is not an outlier among Western Civilization for having the only national leader who is taking a laissez faire attitude regarding the coronavirus epidemic. I’m using laissez faire in the technical sense and not as an insult. Basically, what Trump is saying to America is in contradistinction from the messaging and policies coming out of every other Western leader.

    The question is: Is Trump smarter than all the other leaders and his own CDC and NIH?

    If he is smarter with smarter policies, then America may accrue an economic advantage as a result of the differing policies, even if it suffers substantially more hospitalizations and deaths. This is because Trump will not mitigate economic activity, while other countries will.

    If he’s wrong, American will suffer both economically and in human terms far more than any other Western nation. This is because the medical price will act as its own mitigation on economic activity.

    One might even call this an existential question, because our Asian competitors are to a large extent open and growing again, while we are incurring both massive long term debt, as well as tremendous long term damage to the health of our work force as well as small businesses. Moreover, the education of the next generation of American workers is similarly at risk.

    These are very real issues that transcend partisan politics, as if either party would do the same thing or that the result would be the same, and should be at the forefront of citizens who care about this country.

    Trump is running our epidemic more or less by his own instincts. He has publicly stated that he has major disagreements with what many would consider national experts in their fields. Whether you agree with his assessment of our national experts or not, you should be interested in the Trump’s policies and their origination.

  96. Jean says:

    Typo in my 8:26 am comment.

    Where it says, “The USA is not an outlier among Western Civilization,” it should say, “The USA is now an outlier among Western Civilization.”

  97. Duane Arnold says:

    MLD

    Biden has a long history of acknowledging a speech impediment:
    https://www.stutteringhelp.org/content/joe-biden

    Good to know that you can offer professional medical pronouncements relating it to dementia. I guess my “cover for dementia” must have started when I was five years old…

  98. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    and he has also spoke many time – years ago how he overcame his stuttering – as millions do.
    As I said, I watch and listen to my brother as I bring him back into conversations that he wanders from (as we have seen some of the debate and townhall host do for Joe) and I watch him fumble over words as he reverses his thought back to me.

    I don’t blame anyone who has dementia as if they are doing wrong. iden does not protect Joe.

  99. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    my last sentence got shortened somehow – I wrote;
    I don’t blame anyone who has dementia as if they are doing wrong. My brother was a big time business owner but his wife no longer allows him to work and run their company – even though on many days he would do well – she protects him. Jill Biden does not protect Joe.

  100. Duane Arnold says:

    MLD

    Many never fully overcome a speech impediment. It can return (usually with reduced severity) when one is tired, under stress or even if you have one G&T too many. It also can return with age. I’ve had a life of speaking in public. Still it returns from time to time. The reason I use so many commas in my articles is a throwback to lectures and sermons in which I have to break the text into smaller phrases. It has nothing to do with a diagnosis of dementia…

  101. josh hamrick says:

    I don’t think Biden has dementia. He has handled himself well at the debates, even the chaotic one.
    I think he is suffering from “just getting old”. Not as sharp as he once was. I think that is pretty clear. He appears to me a very poor candidate. Will probably lose the electoral college vote.

  102. Em says:

    Aging is not dependent how many years we’ve accumulated. Some are old/incompetent at 70 and others seem to perk along doing quite well mentally into their 90s….
    Biden IS losing it, however. … Camel uh Harris will be President, if we vote Biden in….. Some say, and could be, that “the fix is in.” 🙆

  103. Em says:

    One of my daughters just got banned from twitter
    Someone called a black fella some ugly names and she quoted the insulter with the cooment “really?”. Got her banned
    a badge of honor in my book

  104. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    And this is the main problem, not with the church, but some whacked out Christians – to attribute the timing of mail delivery to the realm of evil.

    This is nasty stuff and can come only from individuals who have lived a life of ease to rank this as evil. The holocaust was evil, rape is evil – mail delivery not so much.

  105. Dread says:

    MLD

    Agreed — if it is even a minor evil it is only an equal and opposite evil to the one for which is the antidote.

    Personal responsibility is so central to the flourishing of free people. When we sow into personal irresponsibility it grows. It has grown into many voting blocks.

    Opportunity and opportunism are always counterweighted.

  106. Duane Arnold says:

    Political/Governmental corruption is evil… albeit on a sliding scale.

  107. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Are people really upset and feel an exorcism is needed on the government because the Kroger coupon advertisement sometimes shows up on Wednesday instead of Tuesday?

  108. Duane Arnold says:

    MLD

    Slightly different than that… as you know.

  109. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The problem with saying something is evil, plain and simple gives no other alternative like mismanagement, policy differences, Covid 19 working conditions or a poorly trained workforce.

    We know the real message of the one who lays it out as evil — Trump bad, vote Joe.

  110. Duane Arnold says:

    Some things are indeed evil… but on a sliding scale, as I said….

  111. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    mail gets notably worse during normal holiday seasons, so I am not expecting USPS to magically get better in the middle of a pandemic and hobbled by unusual constraints.

    If there “is” a right to timely delivery of mail I haven’t heard of it. Saying that such a right doesn’t exist is uncouth but I hesitate to say it’s evil. Seasonal turnover in delivery work is something we’ll still have to deal with. This year’s pandemic and election may make that a lot worse but we’re entering what is the chaotic mail season of basically every year the last twenty years.

    I know “sin” can mean to “fall short” and all that, so people could say the situation is sinful because it no doubt is, but I think MLD’s got a point here, calling it “evil” doesn’t leave room for human errors and policy differences.

  112. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I mean, if we’re gonna get all Walter Winkian about demons and powers, okay, but at least let’s get that out on the table. Sliding scale of evil still comes across as USPS is, what, 3.2% Satan?

  113. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Many postal problems would be solved if they would just charge what it cost to mail a letter. I did this a couple of months ago when it became a political issue and Pelosi wanted it put in the Covid bill. I took the shortfall and divided it by the number of pieces delivered in a year. I think it came to , raise postage 40 cents and we are at break even.
    Why do we subsidize the mail? At least two thirds of all mailing are business mailings – let them pay their own freight. Amazon etc can pay full freight.
    I live on social security alone – I don’t need to have a subsidy to buy a postage stamp. This is ridiculous. Run the post office like you are serious about it.

  114. Duane Arnold says:

    WTH

    I like the 3.2% Satan… 😂

  115. Em says:

    Lazy, incompetent, evil… Are they synonymous terms?
    We canbdeal with lazy and incompetence, perhaps, but….
    I think we pray for God/Father to deliver us from evil because we are no match for evil and its machinations.

  116. Mike E. says:

    The conversation about dementia is, with all due respect, inane. You have no idea if Biden has dementia. Period. And Em, what’s with the Camel uh Harris? It’s Kamala, but you know that.

  117. Em says:

    Sorry, Mike, i really, really dislike AND distrust that politician. 🙏
    Hard to show respect, really, really hard

  118. Mike E. says:

    I’m sorry too Em. I understand, I feel the same way about Mr. Trump. I was a bit tired last night. Not wise for me to comment when I’m not feeling great. Hope you have a great day! Much love.

  119. Dread says:

    Diversity, Inclusivity and Equity the trinity that heartens the left. The tree from which to eat is to DIE. It’s good for food, pleasing to the eye and desirable to make us godlike.

    Biden/Harris 2020

  120. Jean says:

    “Diversity, Inclusivity and Equity the trinity that heartens the left.”

    …that heartens human beings made in and reflecting the image of God.

    Christ reversed Babel, Dread. Join the age to come.

  121. Babylon's Dread says:

    Jean

    That which is freely embraced is Babel reversed that which is coerced is hell embraced. Replacing a history of one kind of injustice with another overseen by government is seven times demonic. The age to come is in the Spirit. It is in Christ it is not in Caesar. The initiatives with that promise are almost the truth, the twist is as deadly as the original lie.

  122. Dread says:

    It sounds good…
    It looks good…
    It feels good…
    It must be good!

    It is not good and it is not God.

  123. Jean says:

    God’s law always is coercive to the old Adam.

    Christian freedom is rooted in being crucified with Christ. The new creature who rises with Christ loves the law.

    If you follow the Spirit you are not under the law. You seem to be stuck under the yoke of the law. We’re you not, you wouldn’t lament the coercion of God’s law.

  124. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    “Replacing a history of one kind of injustice with another overseen by government is seven times demonic. ”

    Just how has this affected you and your ministry? Prohibited to preach? Teach? Evangelize? Persecuted for having a Bible? Prohibited to baptize? Arrested on pastoral calls? Just wondering…

  125. Michael says:

    “It is not good and it is not God.”
    As if God were to be found somewhere in this abyss at all…

  126. Dread says:

    Ah Jean

    I see the twist … it’s always there “We’re you not, you wouldn’t lament the coercion of God’s law.”

    Deftly employed

  127. Dread says:

    Duane,

    Wherein was I lamenting my own ministry?

    I see I have poked to bears.

  128. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    You didn’t… I was just asking a question…

  129. Jean says:

    Not twisting. From a seat of brotherly concern, trying to open ears, and Spirit willing, hearts too.

  130. Michael says:

    Let us be fair…the ideologies Dread loathes are loathsome, indeed.
    His answers to arresting them are as well.
    The idea that a man utterly without any principles other than lust for power and self promotion cares about such is laughable.
    The man is a dunce with the instincts of a predator.
    The people I care about do not have the luxury of being lost in ideology.
    They are hoping to see their parents again.
    They are hoping they will have health insurance as a pandemic ravages the nation.
    They are hoping to hold on to what business they have left as their employees and customers fall to the virus that didn’t just go away.
    They no longer feel safe.
    They have learned to trust no one when we need to trust someone more than ever.
    We will not fall to warped ideologies, we will fall to the loss of ethics and the ruin of community.
    There is no fixing this…the great experiment failed because we declared a bloodless civil war at the behest of people who have the means to stay safe.
    The blood will come.
    When our Lord separates the sheep and goats He has provided the test questions in advance…it was a gracious act, but we chose to fail anyway.

  131. Dread says:

    Michael

    We mostly agree.

    Sadly we agree about the blood.

    If you mean our experiment of freedom has failed I suspect it has. The polarization in our nation is too wide to span.

  132. Michael says:

    “The polarization in our nation is too wide to span.”
    It might be…it probably is.
    My contention is that much of the polarization is artificially induced by those who gain from it.
    If those called by their holy book to be agents of reconciliation had taken up their calling instead of contributing to the strife, we might have saved the experiment a while longer.
    Sadly, the great deception took us in first..and in the name of righteousness we took on unrighteous ways.
    We will die with the sword in our hands, but it will not be the sword of the Lord…

  133. Jean says:

    It’s a polarization around whether “all” means “all.”

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    It’s a polarization around whether citizens of color, the poor, ex-cons and Democrats fall within the definition of “the governed.”

    “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

  134. Michael says:

    Jean,

    It goes beyond that.
    Way beyond.
    What we are dealing with today is the tree that sprung from the seeds of coercion…that being the imposition of sexual values that we were forced to accept without the ability to protest without the loss of income and place.
    Thus, you have a large group of people who believe they have been coerced to accept many things odious to them.
    Trump is, as one article put it, the last finger they can raise to the forced silence and those who demanded it.

  135. Jean says:

    So, is what your describing, Michael, the art of one-prickmenship? Is the new spiritual warfare out pricking your enemy?

  136. Michael says:

    Jean,

    What I am describing is the root of what Dread rails against and what I believe to be what many feel.
    It is why I knew that Trump would win in 2016.
    People with no power, but huge resentment, found a champion…though in reality, he is no champion for anyone but himself.
    The church, which has been ruined in many places because of the new sexual politics, believed they had found a champion too.
    The people who could not speak lest they lose their jobs and be destroyed through social media, had a representative who spoke for them.
    If we fail to understand the dynamics that made decent people support a grifter, we have no hope of ever reconciling this country at all.
    Now, these people know if Trump loses, they will have to pay the piper…and the cost will be everything they hold dear.
    The swing of the pendulum will leave devastation in its path…just as the first swing the other way did…

  137. Michael says:

    Our only hope is to disable the pendulum…

  138. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    I seldom disagree with you, but I might in this instance just a little. The Church was born in a society whose sexual values were wholly at odds with their own. Additionally, the Church was actually subjected to intermittent persecution. Nevertheless, the Church grew and thrived. This was done on the basis of the Gospel, not by the Church attempting to use the vehicle of the State for its own ends. Yes, we may have to make choices that involve loss of income and place. The Early Church experienced the same, individually and corporately. Many of us here have experienced such losses. I seem to remember, however, that the disciple is not above their master in such situations. As the Church we are not being persecuted. We are able to preach, teach, baptize… all those things that define Church.

    Yes, I will participate in the City of Man and look to the justice inherent in laws and the character of those who rule… but I will not mistake that temporal City for the City of God…

  139. Jean says:

    This is not directed at you, Michael, but I see a different narrative in play.

    I am not aware of any correlation between Christian grievances against progressive sexual laws and the suppression of the black vote. Everything I’ve read is that as a demographic, black Americans (and Latinos) tend to be right of center, perhaps far right of the average white American.

  140. Michael says:

    Jean,

    When you pick a hero, you gain things that may not be heroic.
    You assume that most people think though these things the way you do.
    This is a mistake.
    This is all about fears and hatreds with no name…framed as God vs, evil to simplify it.
    This are visceral times…because wars must be fought viscerally,not intellectually.

  141. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Agreed…but you and I know how far the church today is from the Early Church…

  142. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    I know. I think, however, when the history of this time is written, the key word will be “seduction”. The mainstream churches seduced by a false ideal of inclusivity; the evangelical churches seduced by the allure of power. The funny thing about seduction is that we never see it in “real time”, we only see it afterward when we regret what happened…

  143. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Agreed…that’s a hell of a quote!

  144. Dread says:

    Ok

    This discussion has become useful. However, we can only advance it if we stop asserting that those who find a ‘champion’ are in sin by association. I do not think in politics either win that game.

    I’d like to see Michael suss out more of what he means about the sexual politics because I too see a deeper root in that category. I do continuously speak of ideology and meta-narrative because I believe those things control the mind of public action. Yesterday’s egghead controls today’s public discourse.

    I quite like the American liberal democracy and its’ intentions and can see that they are being rejected via the critical theory narrative. For me it is worth contending that we continue on with our national experiment of liberal democracy as the best (not last) hope for corporate human flourishing.

    Jean you clearly work within a Lutheran version of ideology(meta narrative) via law and Gospel.

    We can talk to each other better than we have managed. But we have to stop suspecting evil of the ‘other’

    Clearly we are all at fever pitch … we cannot stay there.

  145. Dread says:

    Duane @10:03 — YES and thank you

    The big warnings that I see in the Biblical text for such times are intimidation, deception and seduction; two beasts and a whore

  146. Michael says:

    Dread,

    It’s very simple.
    I always go back to 2002 and my first employee orientation with a major national bank.
    We had barely sat down when they showed us a video of a same sex couple in management…telling us what the values of the institution were and the penalty for not adopting those values, at least while at work.
    Later, we were told our social media posts would be monitored as well.
    75% of that room was shocked…but none of us were going to speak.
    There was no mention of religious exemptions or 2000 years of moral theology discussed.
    Since then, much, much more has been forced on everyone by threat…and the threats were real.
    By 2016 the smoldering resentment turned into a blaze of votes.
    In 2016, those threatened turned the tables…or hoped they did.
    What really happened was the extremes on the left and the right took hold of the narrative and left those same people behind, but unaware that they were pawns.
    The extremes want war.
    They will probably get their desire.
    What we need is a vast middle where the rights of sexual minorities and religious practitioners can both speak and thrive.

  147. Jean says:

    Here is how I see the root of the problem played out this statement from Duane:

    “The mainstream churches seduced buy a false ideal of inclusivity; the evangelical churches seduced by the allure of power.”

    Where I think mainline churches have erred is that they want to envision a God who is love (and He is), but they can’t square that vision with the Bible. So they’ve downgraded the Bible, some calling it historically or socially conditioned, while others just say it has errors. In any event, they implicitly (or explicitly) claim an unmediated revelation of the Spirit for what the church and society should now look like. By making this move, they end up calling evil good, and good evil.

    Conservative churches on the other hand, many but not all, claim the Bible, claim inerrancy, but have erased major portions of the Scriptures from their Bibles.

    Some have spiritualized their religion, so that they can divorce the ethics of the Bible from their political ethics. Some think that sanctification comes by attending a certain amount of church functions a week, rather than suffering from being in, but not of, the world. Does anyone here realize that sanctification comes through suffering? Does anyone here realize that Paul, following Jesus, said “rejoice.” Yet, American Christians think they’re suffering by wearing a surgical mask. LOL!!!

    By grasping for secular power, led by a seriously morally and ethically flawed individual, many conservative Christians are also now calling evil good, and good evil.

  148. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I don’t necessarily agree with the theology, but there is much truth there.

  149. Em says:

    Interesting discussion this morning, gentlemen….
    Question… Historically, in nations where the Christians were allowed to thrive, to worship and live without government interference, does the nation thrive?

  150. Em says:

    Jean, FWIW… 😏 i believe any church that loses their vision of Gods uncompromising holiness loses their graso, their understanding of His love and grace……
    Perhaps even their fear of Him?

  151. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Here is one big thing. Trump may violate his own Christian beliefs / ethics but he has not required me to do so – not once.

    Biden on the other hand has vowed that his first legislative action will be to require me to ignore my Christian beliefs / ethics and fall into line under penalty of law and accept the sexual and gender perversions of others.
    I am sure it will be against the law to teach my kids different from the Biden. / Harris definition of normal sexual / gender activity.

  152. Jean says:

    Em,

    “Question… Historically, in nations where the Christians were allowed to thrive, to worship and live without government interference, does the nation thrive?”

    Nations thrive by God’s providential grace. I believe we could safely say that the closer a nation’s laws adhere to God’s natural law, the better off that nation and its citizens will be.

  153. bob1 says:

    Biden on the other hand has vowed that his first legislative action will be to require me to ignore my Christian beliefs / ethics and fall into line under penalty of law and accept the sexual and gender perversions of others.

    So you have a lot of contact with these folks, do you?

    And at your age, children?

  154. Michael says:

    “Question… Historically, in nations where the Christians were allowed to thrive, to worship and live without government interference, does the nation thrive?”

    Very difficult question to answer…I’m not sure that national thriving and the church are connected.

  155. Michael says:

    MLD’s concerns are valid.
    Mocking those concerns is why we’re where we’re at…

  156. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    bob 1 – if I am riding on a bus seated next to Caitin Jenner I can tell him why I think his life choices are wrong and the worst he can do is be offended, punch me n the nose or move seats.

    Under Biden, he could call the FBI on me and have me thrown in jail if I do not change my words. This may be acceptable to you.

  157. Babylon's Dread says:

    MLD makes the point that Michael raised.

    The inevitable correlative to redefining EVERYTHING is coercing everyone to submit to the redefining. Whenever, the culture makes a law the government makes it mandatory in every government funded arena.

    What Michael pointed to in 2002 will be repeated under Biden in the form of using human resource departments to coerce the values of DIE that I pointed to above. When that happens as it already is happening… there will be no peacemaking with such things.

    It is true that people like myself … see Trump as a hedge — temporary to these things.

    There is an increasing number of classical liberal scholars who are seeing a coalition with conservative Christians as a necessary alternative to the hegemonic shift wanted by the far left.

    I am hearing hard core atheists who are saying that had they not firsthand experienced the damage of critical race theory in both their professional and personal lives, they would have wanted nothing more than for CRT to have its way destroying Churches. However, having tasted and seen the carnage they are reaching for friends. Liberal democracy makes room for both classical liberal and historic Christian values… CRT gives no quarter.

    So the lines are shifting. Many very liberal thinkers will cross the aisle to fend off the onslaught of the far left. I have seen this coming … first heard of it in 1997 didn’t believe it… didn’t see any possibility until the Jordan Peterson phenomenon in Canada emerged. Now it is in full bloom.

    I agree with those who think the values of Western Civilisation as a whole are what’s at stake. This is no joke…

  158. Jean. The Religious Right(pre-2016) and MAGA(post-2016) are very much the product of christian evolution. You can go back a century plus and look at all the twist and turns through time.

    To Michael’s reference of grievance: Got that right. I think that grievance is progressively concentrated by factors such as, rural, lower income, lower education, white male, etc.

  159. josh hamrick says:

    “the values of Western Civilisation as a whole are what’s at stake.”

    Why do you think the values of western civ are worth saving?

  160. Michael says:

    I will offer this in fear and trembling.
    The concerns that Dread and MLD speak have have been addressed by the addition of a conservative on the Supreme Court.
    Now, we must address the carnage of the administration that put her there in the providence of God.

  161. Jean says:

    Nathan,

    “To Michael’s reference of grievance: Got that right. I think that grievance is progressively concentrated by factors such as, rural, lower income, lower education, white male, etc.”

    You have hit upon an important factor in play today. We are an entitlement society. People want “stuff” and easy fixes. They don’t mind taking my stuff, if it means more for you.

    They want to medicate. They low taxes, but don’t want to give up the services that taxes pay for. They want high paying jobs, but they are putting priority in education. They want cheep stuff, but they don’t want jobs exported to China. They don’t want immigrant labor, but they don’t want to do the low wage jobs themselves. They don’t like sexual immorality, but they won’t give up pornography and no fault divorce. They want law and order, but they don’t support equal justice for all.

  162. Dread says:

    Josh

    We can have that discussion. Offer your deconstruction.

  163. Em says:

    Jean @ 11:27
    Sounds like a “civilization” ever learning, but never able to face reality – truth……

  164. Dread says:

    Priddis

    That’s classic critical theory. The white cisgender abled male is the devil to be cast out. He’s the oppressor — CRT is the soup we’re cooked in just now.

  165. As a “Northerner” I had no interest in Southern history, post Civil War. As a kid I loved miltary history and with the end of the war, the exciting part ceased. Nothing to see here. I basically knew the South decended into severe depression, and the slaves never got those 40 acres, or the mule.

    This year I have a new theory. The Confederacy never was defeated. It managed to hang on. The survivors, and their children, first targeted blacks. Following this, many turned their attention to the Modernist- Fundamentalist war. Fundamentalism was inordinately influenced by Southerners who retained Southern idealogy. Groups and institutions can still be identified as decending from Confederate, or at least Southern ideology. (SBTS, Libery U, SBC, etc)

  166. Jean says:

    You can caricature Nathan if you want to, but it is precisely the undereducated white males who have been left out of the “new” economy.

    Trump grasps at coal for them, as though the world is going to turn back. The only future for American prosperity is going to be based on technological innovation. We can never compete for old economy blue collar labor, because their are literally billions of developing nation workers who will work for wages that your 10 year old son wouldn’t settle for. And, folks won’t give up their Wal-Mart prices.

  167. Jean says:

    The genius of Trump is that he convinces grieved white voters that he can fix their lives. Maybe Johnny the Baker will be able to flip the bird to a gay couple, but otherwise Trump wants to strip ordinary folks of their access to healthcare, convince them that China is paying the tariffs that actually we’re paying on the upcharge on imported goods, convince them that tax cuts are “middle class,” when the vast majority benefited the upper class, convince them that we’ve “rounded the corner” on the pandemic, while folks can’t get into the hospital for procedures because all the beds are full. Never in the history of a nation has a leader better deceived an electorate into voting directly against their own interests.

    How long will the MAGA universe respond with “may I have another?”

  168. josh hamrick says:

    Dread, I don’t have a deconstruction. You want to hold onto “western civ” because it has been good to you. My question would be, has it been good to your neighbor? Are there some that “our way of life” has trampled upon, and if so, when does civilization get to be good for them?
    Western Civilization is a house built on shifting sand. It will fall. We know that. We’ve found comfortable corners in the meantime, but the house itself is temporary.

  169. BD. The CRT slogan is a flop. MAGA, Law and Order, Lock her/ him/them up. This kind work. They are simple and can be remembered.
    Cultural Marxists? Give me a break. A Marxist who is cultured, refined and enjoys the finer things in life? CRT should have been trialed with a focus group comprosed of average Joe’s.

  170. Dread says:

    Jean

    No

  171. Xenia says:

    Michael gets it. I always knew he did.

    A year or so ago, one of our parishes in the Bay Area was being threatened with vandalism because of our Church’s stand against the homosexual agenda. Our Archbishop paid our little parish a visit and in the course of his short homily he looked at us intently and said: Homosexuality is a sin. He said it again: Homosexuality is a sin. He wanted us to be perfectly clear on this.

    If Biden has his way, our dear bishop will be accused of hate speech and sent off to prison.

    Where have we heard before of Russian bishops being sent to prison for standing up to The Lie? Hmmmmm….

    Listen, I do care about the children on the border. But I also care about my own grandchildren who might inadvertently get their parents (my kids) in trouble for saying something the mob believes is hate speech, or in other words, sticking up for Christian morality. You know, for declining to practice putting a condom on a banana or participating in some transgender propaganda. Yes, I worry about my own kids, too.

  172. Jean says:

    Josh,

    Well said.

  173. Dread says:

    And Nathan

    I do not use Cultural Marxism precisely because of its imprecision though marxism is afoot in this chaos. I will allow your scorn to be your exit from my attention in these matters.

  174. josh hamrick says:

    “If Biden has his way, our dear bishop will be accused of hate speech and sent off to prison.”

    1. That is probably not true.
    2. If so, praise the Lord! Christianity was never supposed to be acceptable to the Emperors of the world. All the apostles were familiar with the inside of a prison. Same for early church fathers. Praise the Lord that your Bishop may be considered worthy to suffer for the Lord!

  175. Dread says:

    Well said?

    Josh — I believe it has been good to my neighbor and never better than this present moment. We are an immigrant destination because of opportunity to flourish, blacks fare better in America than any nation on earth – though some European (western) nations might rival us.

    Western civilization has been the best neighbor on the planet. The masses are not flocking to China or the Muslim block of nations. Nor are they headed en mass to Africa.

    Western civilization birthed by the Judeo Christian worldview and enriched by enlightenment liberalism has been the greatest source of human flourishing on the planet.

    Are you going to offer CRT as a salvation for the deficiencies? I will simply offer continuing to make progress on the promises.

    Government intervention in CRT will be totalitarian and more oppressive than all of your white guilt can conceive. I seriously think the warmth toward the leftward lurch is completely blind.

  176. Dread says:

    Josh wishes prison for orthodox bishops… may you receive that for which you pray.

    If I ever go it will surely be for my assholery not for some sacred stand.

  177. Xenia says:

    Good for my neighbor…. let us take a look at my neighbor the the left of us. This is a family that came from the Philippines a few decades ago. Mom, dad and five kids who instantly became friends with our own five kids. They did not speak English when they came. Dad found a job doing construction work for Caltrans; mom stayed home with the kids. All the kids were educated in our local schools, went to college, and have good jobs and lovely families.

    Now let us look at my neighbors to the right. They live in the house his grandfather, a migrant from Mexico, built. The grandma was from Portugal, or at least her parents were. That was Ida, and we were great friends until she died a while back. These folks are doing well, too. They live in a nice house, have nice cars- everything they need on a physical level. On a spiritual level…. well, that’s up to them.

    All these people came here because they found what western civilization offers to be attractive.

    Maybe a little more gratitude would help people see what God has given us.

    Next time I see my Archbishop I will tell him there’s a pastor down in North Carolina who wants him to be cheerful being silenced.

  178. josh hamrick says:

    Dread bares false witness.

    Sorry to upset you man. I’ll step away.

  179. josh hamrick says:

    And Xenia of all people bares false witness.

    American politics has destroyed us. I’m out.

  180. Xenia says:

    Josh,

    I should have said “if”

    Next time I see my Archbishop I will tell him there’s a pastor down in North Carolina who wants him to be cheerful IF he is silenced.

  181. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It’s quite an ecumenical group here – a Baptist, a Lutheran, and a couple of non denominational freelance guys here each in their own way calling for the death of America.

    Oh, of course they will allow some freedom to roam around and feed the pigeons – and still call it America – but it won’t be anything me and my kids would recognize.

  182. Dread says:

    Josh methinks thou takes thyself too seriously as I believe thou accusest me from time to time. Upon rereading I did accuse you of wishing that for which you only praised the Lord… I repent but the sackcloth and ashes will have to wait.

    Like I said …

    Assholery Dread

  183. josh hamrick says:

    Xenia, please re-read what I said, and quote where I said that. Tell your Bishop exactly what I said…that I placed him in the company of the apostles and the early church fathers, and that I marveled that he was considered worthy to suffer for the Lord.

    If he is then offended, at least it will be an accurate portrayal of my words.

  184. josh hamrick says:

    Dread, I don’t want to fight you.
    You do realize that my offending quote was a scripture reference, right?

  185. josh hamrick says:

    “but it won’t be anything me and my kids would recognize.”

    Maybe it will be better? America has been a mess from day one. Maybe the next folks will get it right.

  186. josh hamrick says:

    And I’m feeling that old demon that wants to argue and wants to be right. Sorry folks.

    Love all of you. Taking off for a while.

  187. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, perhaps since you and your comrades are sin free you will do a better job.
    As for me and my house, we could never shake that sin and did the best we could.

    God couldn’t control Israel, Jesus couldn’t control his 12 – but you have the answer. LOL

  188. Duane Arnold says:

    “We see then that the two cities were created by two kinds of love: the earthly city was created by self-love reaching the point of contempt for God, the Heavenly City by the love of God carried as far as contempt of self. In fact, the earthly city glories in itself, the Heavenly City glories in the Lord. The former looks for glory from men, the latter finds its highest glory in God, the witness of a good conscience. The earthly lifts up its head in its own glory, the Heavenly City says to its God: ‘My glory; you lift up my head.’ In the former, the lust for domination lords it over its princes as over the nations it subjugates; in the other both those put in authority and those subject to them serve one another in love, the rulers by their counsel, the subjects by obedience. The one city loves its own strength shown in its powerful leaders; the other says to God, ‘I love you, my Lord, my strength.’ . . .

    Augustine

    Sorry, I’m not a culture warrior… I’ll stick with the Church, Theology and trying my best to live out the Gospel.

  189. bob1 says:

    Duane,

    A well spoken word, thank you.

    Looks like some things really don’t change over time…

  190. Yes. The City of God.
    Abraham sojorned in a strange land, waiting for the promise..
    “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God..”..

    This striving for power is worthless. The Seven Mountain Mandate, is useless because it is written..
    “the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: ..”..

    Nor can the culture wars advance the Kingdom because..”That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”.. and..”.the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. “..

    We enter this City through death and the Resurrection, our blessed hope. This new civic religion is a fraud. For..”27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, “To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” ..
    As earthly vessels, this alone is difficult. There is no need to add political strife.

  191. Duane Arnold says:

    Nathan

    “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God..”..

    You’re on my page…

  192. Em says:

    Is integrity considered admirable today? Reading some here I’m not sure.. Loving emotions and integrity are not synonomous terms…
    I recall my grandmother saying that her father was a man of his word and his handshake as good as a contract…… And he made his living raising, buying and selling blooded mules and horses, first in Kentucky, then Missouri and finally Colorado………
    There used to be a saying, if you are able and you don’t work, you don’t eat… I remember seeing photos of old Russian ladies with their brooms and barrels sweeping streets of Cpmmunist Soviet Union….. that might be extreme. I think i prefer Social Security. Although my children don’t expect to collect it, thanks to folk like Shumer, Pelosi and i suspect Biden and others on both sides of that aisle, but they do talk a good talk…. sigh
    Once we don’t govern strictly by the Constitution and Bill of Rights written long ago along with that loss will go God’s hand of protection and blessing – AS I SEE IT – dunno, though, do i?
    God keep and increase all our wisdom and understanding

  193. Duane Arnold says:

    Christians managed for a little over 17 centuries without the American founding documents… but I’m not a Christian Nationalist, so my perspective might be different.

  194. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I follow Jesus. I too am no Christian Nationalist. I do what I can to make my neighbors’ life better and make no demands on civil government to carry out my Christian vocation for me.

  195. Michael says:

    The responses to Josh need to be repented of…

  196. Michael says:

    My God, why do I try?

    No one here is advocating for the “death of America”…what a horrible thing to say to brethren.

  197. Jean says:

    Horrible, but nothing new.

  198. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh did not balk at what I said. In fact he agreed at 12:54 that his post America plan was better.

    He understood fully what I was saying. Too bad you guys aren’t as alert as he is.

  199. Mike E. says:

    Reading this conversation, I am reminded of the scripture that some things are too high for me. I honestly don’t understand what is even happening here. I am far more driven by emotion than logic. This sometimes is a blessing… sometimes a curse. I was reading of the temptation of Christ. How the devil showed him all the kingdoms of the world and asked for His worship. For the kingdoms of the world are his to give. He is the god of this world. This world’s system is satanic… We know that principalities, that is, dark spiritual authorities, rule over the nations of the world. So why are we fighting for that which our Lord rejected? He refused to worship Satan, the nations of the world, quite literally, be damned. But he did not claim the kingdoms of the world were not his to give. The world system is ultimately satanic and the church must fight not against flesh and blood as it seems we are doing here, but against the principalities and powers. Who will deny the traumatizing of children is of the darkness? Some may argue children will be traumatized by putting a condom on a banana. Maybe. Maybe not. But let them be removed from their parents and sent back to nations ruled by murderous drug cartels. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Love is His will. Not capitalism. Not CRT. Not the Democratic or the Republican platforms. Not fear mongering. People. Loving people. Individuals. I don’t know how to do that correctly. I just know that’s what He wants. I think you are all right, to one degree or another. In His great High Priestly prayer in John 17, our Lord prayed for His people to be united. To be one. So why are we fighting over the kingdoms of this world? I’m so tired and weary and frankly, not well. Lord, have mercy on us all. The LORD rebuke you, Satan.

  200. Xenia says:

    You know, all I want is to let my grandsons to go to school without told they can be girls if they want; for my granddaughter not to be told abortion is wonderful; for my husband not to have to sit through woke meetings at his university with his mouth shut as they go through their pro-sin agendas; for my priest to be able to tell us what is sin and what is virtue without it being labeled hate speech, and for the members of my family that happen to be white to be happy they are white just as the non-white members of my family are happy with their ethnicity. I am not a nationalist or a racist or any of the things people want to call me. I am just a parent/ grandparent/ wife who cares about her family.

  201. Michael says:

    Josh isn’t advocating for the death of America…he’s advocating that we live up to what we claim to be and recognizes that we often haven’t.

  202. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I share your concerns.
    However, I’m also quite sure that the election of a venal narcissist isn’t going to make those changes happen.
    The only thing that can is a church with a vital and living witness unencumbered by politics, weighed down with a love for truth and people made in the image of God.

  203. Michael says:

    If the prophets were correct, what is happening on our border will take us out before sexual immorality does…

  204. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, what is it we claim to be? We are a war mongering power hungry country that wants to abort more and more babies each year. We want to be a country of total sexual and gender perversions.
    This is who we want and claim to be.
    I don’t think we should want any of that crap and if it hurts people’s feeling and makes peoples’ life harder – well too bad.

  205. Michael says:

    MikeE.,

    There is little taste for the love in election years…

  206. Michael says:

    MLD,

    You well know that I was referring to the Judeo-Christian ethics that we love to claim represents the American ethos.
    Abortions actually dropped radically when the Democrats were in charge…we might want to ask why.
    Perversions require a change of heart…is it more perverse to engage in homosexual relations or the torment of migrants?

  207. Michael says:

    There was an article i wanted to put in the Linkathon! but lost.
    It was exceedingly troubling in that it stated that 30% of women under 30 now identified as lesbians or bisexual.
    I don’t doubt the number…but I don’t believe there is a political solution.
    There are spiritual ones if we can gain an ear…

  208. Xenia says:

    As I have said, the devil often offers two choices, both with some good and with some evil, and tells us we have to choose. Then he sits back and laughs as people beat each other up over the awful choice they felt they had to make. There should be a third way which thwarts the devil, but this year I can’t find one that I can live with. But let every man do what seems right to him.

    By the way, I apologize to Josh for taking what he said about suffering and meant for good and saying that he meant it as sarcasm or something…. I am sorry. I know you better than that, Josh. Forgive me.

  209. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, Josh claimed that America has been a mess from the beginning. In context of our conversation (Josh and myself) the next folks must be the post America people.
    Josh had no high ideals for America either.

  210. Xenia says:

    Michael, what is taught in schools is political. If schools want government money they may have to offer curriculums that encourage girls to become lesbians. That’s politics.

  211. Jean says:

    Michael,

    If Donald Trump is the prototypical male, are you surprised?

  212. Xenia says:

    Christian and other conservative families turn to home school or private schools but these schools are completely the football of politics. In many European countries home school is illegal.

  213. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I am in the midst of homeschooling Trey in his senior year with standard online curricula in the very liberal state of Oregon.
    There has been no encouragement for any student to be gay.
    Not even close.

  214. Michael says:

    “There should be a third way which thwarts the devil, but this year I can’t find one that I can live with. ”

    The third way for many of us was to speak the truth of God’s word and ways to both sides without joining either…

  215. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Who claims Trump is THE prototypical male? I hang out with a lot of people and have yet to hear that one.
    In liberal circles I thought Don Lemon was the prototypical male?

  216. Jean says:

    “If schools want government money they may have to offer curriculums that encourage girls to become lesbians.”

    Xenia,

    Is there any curriculum you’ve ever heard of, or that has been proposed or even imagined, in which girls would be “encouraged” to be lesbians. I find this irrational.

    Also, girls are far more influenced by their social media influencers than teachers in school. It’s not even close.

    This is to also observe that parents “can”, if they wish and put in the work, and the thankless job, be the most influential on their children by (1) being involved with them; (2) watching over their homework and helping with it and going to parent/teacher conferences and keeping in contact with teachers; and (3) setting rules over cell phone and computer usage, regarding what they are looking at.

  217. Xenia says:

    I googled “schools encouraging homosexuality” and got over 2 million hits.

    I picked this one at random. If I post more than one I think I will trigger the spam filter:

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/queering-schools-12411.html

    An exerpt:

    Only in liberal Massachusetts could a public school endorse such an event for teens, you might think. But you would be wrong. For the last decade or so, largely working beneath public or parental notice, a well-organized movement has sought to revolutionize the curricula and culture of the nation’s public schools. Its aim: to stamp out “hegemonic heterosexuality”—the traditional view that heterosexuality is the norm—in favor of a new ethos that does not just tolerate homosexuality but instead actively endorses experimenting with it, as well as with a polymorphous range of bisexuality, transgenderism, and transsexuality. The educational establishment has enthusiastically signed on. What this portends for the future of the public schools and the psychic health of the nation’s children is deeply worrisome.

  218. Xenia says:

    That quote was referencing a school’s To B GLAD Day”
    (Transgender, Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian Awareness Day.)

  219. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I haven’t seen any evidence of such, but if it were the norm how would a vote for a venal narcissist change that?
    You do realize when he no longer needs the conservative Christian vote they will be discarded for whatever will enrich him later…

  220. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia, some here, especially those without grandchildren have no idea how perverse and pervasive the sexual gender perversions are and promoted by mainline school administrators and developers – pushed by liberal politicians and policy makers. Again, more people who want to see death to America as we know it.

  221. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I’ve been involved in schooling kids for the last 30 years…God willing, this is my last year.
    I have yet to see perversions promoted in public or online school.
    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen….but I haven’t seen it.

  222. Jean says:

    Let me respond with two comments Xenia:

    (1) It’s clear from the quote, that the author is partisan. So, it can’t be trusted as an objective look at what the school is doing. Even “awareness” or “tolerance” or “acceptance” is a far cry from encouraging.

    (2) I don’t know if this is a particular view of conservative Christians, but many Christians talk or think as though someone grows up sexually neutral and must be encouraged to be straight or gay. Or maybe the grow up straight, but with the right encouragement they could be persuaded to be gay.

    I am straight and have shared a lot of locker rooms with other males over a lifetime, and I can tell you straight up. that you can’t encourage the straightness out of a man, and you don’t teach it either. As soon as the acne gets going on a young boy’s face, he has already begun to appreciate and desire the female body. You aren’t going to talk him into slow dancing with another dude.

    I’ve know a lot of gays as well. I grew up on the Bay Area and also lived in Chicago for 7 years. I have never met a gay man who either chose his sexual orientation or would try to coerce it on another male. They are well aware that there is a cultural price to pay and I can’t think of any gays I have ever known would would chose it. But, they have that orientation that they didn’t ask for, and they try to live their lives with the same dreams and aspirations that the rest of us do.

  223. Michael says:

    What would be a political solution to gender issues…especially when the majority favor same sex marriage?

  224. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – I don’t want a political solution. That train has left the station long ago. I don’t want anyone impeding my speech right to call wrong wrong – even if it is just my opinion of wrong.

    Politically I just refuse to support candidates who in trying to protect others do harm to me.

  225. Xenia says:

    I just remembered when we homeschooled through the county the teacher they assigned to us, a person who most surely was a lesbian, handed my 15 year old daughter a book on feminism and how to procure an abortion as part of health curriculum. I took one look at it and handed it back to her. After that we didn’t get on well and we eventually quit that program .

    As to Trey’s program, I think they are not promoting the perversion because they will lose all the Christian parents and they are relying on them for Daily Average Attendance money I suspect. But that’s just a guess.

  226. Xenia says:

    I wonder how many have ever been a part of the PTA of a school run by liberals.

  227. Jean says:

    “What would be a political solution to gender issues…especially when the majority favor same sex marriage?”

    Michael,

    When you say, “political solution,” you are talking about laws. Ideally, same-sex marriage would be illegal, as would same-sex civil unions. Gays should not be able to obtain in vitro fertilization or adopt or foster children.

    But you can only change laws to obtain these ideals by changing hearts. Only preaching and teaching the Word of God can change hearts. That is the sword that the church wields, the only sword. I think its possible, because I think the Word of God has power. But I also believe that it took our society decades to get to where we are, and it would take decades to turn the ship around.

    But we can’t just select the laws that are not our own problems, but we must give a consistent witness of God’s laws regarding human sexuality across the board. And repentance always begins in the house of God, so we first must repent. What are we watching, doing, supporting, encouraging, etc. Christians for too long has been looked upon as hypocrites. Look at the latest example in Falwell Jr. Does he have moral standing to criticize anyone else?

  228. Mike E. says:

    To listen to some here, homosexuality is the worst sin imaginable. But going after a married woman ( “I moved on her like a b****h” ), screwing a porn star when your wife is pregnant, then paying her off and lying about it is acceptable. Concocting a policy that traumatizes children for life and encouraging white supremacy isn’t that bad. Encouraging others to be physically violent is nothing. BUT….the GAYS….Sorry…I think I’d rather hang with THE GAYS…I’m a horrible person, right. I like gay people. Most of them I’ve encountered have been very kind to me. Crucify me.

  229. Em says:

    I don’t think we really understand what triggers the homosexual response…. I do think, when it proliferates, it is a symptom of a degenerating social structure – a symptom like pimples are a symptom of chicken pox
    Does it have something to do with lax or overbearing parenting – so many two income families today, or, as someone noted here, the desire to ape what the “in crowd,” the celebrities promote? Low self confidence ? Maybe all?
    The two genders complement each other and that is a beautiful thing…. Sigh
    Glad someone brought up the two kingdoms… We Christians do have a responsibility to be good, thoughtful citizens AND to realize, as someone said on the thread, until Christ returns, the devil does seem to be in charge of kings and their kingdoms here…. And yet…
    Our God IS in charge ultimately

  230. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mike E – I think all adultery is wrong and should be called out. In the end I think I should be able to make hiring and firing decisions based on it as making them untrustworthy. I THINK adulterers should be excommunicated ( kept from the supper). As Christians I think almost all divorces are on non biblical grounds and should be called out by the church.

    I would, will continue to speak out against divorce and I think no fault divorce laws are as bad a gay right laws.
    CRUCIFY ME 🙂

  231. Em says:

    Mike E, gay men in my past were the most caring, most solicitous men i came across – good company
    I was what my cousins termed a “looker” when younger and most hetro men were a bit of a problem – wedding band or not
    Preachers like to claim David when they tom cat, but David messed up and confessed and as far as i know was not a repeat offender…. God evem forgave him for placing a heroic soldier in a position to be killed.. .
    Unbelief, self justification on the other hand…. A small faith can grow stronger and most often does over time…
    I think Faith can grow reading the posts on Michael’s site here

  232. Mike E. says:

    MLD–You think a repentant, confessed adulterer should be denied communion? Or one actively engaged? Or both? Just clarifying.

  233. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mike, unrepentant, actively engaged or not.

    But I don’t look at adultery as a sexual sin – but as a relationship sin.

  234. Em says:

    Good question, Mike E. When one repents, confesses, God forgives and probably expects us to show up for communion…

  235. Em says:

    MLD, isn’t it (adultry) both? Relationship may be weightier, but.
    Also, i think that those in the church have a real obligation to grab that adulterer and make him/her accountable.. Maybe even before betrayal occurs

  236. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, I don’t know what “before betrayal occurs” means.
    But if holding accountable means always teaching the exclusive definition of marriage as one man and one woman for one lifetime, I can go with that.

  237. Duane Arnold says:

    Culture warriors. Not Church, not theology… and we wonder why no one listens to us…

  238. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t think no one listens to the church – in fact I find the opposite – many, many who want to be like the church and want church validation.

    The number of people in the community who normally would not darken a church door (so to speak) who come to us to baptize their children – those who come to have us marry them – and those who come and say “my mother had no church, but pastor would you bury her?

    The countless people who call wanting a pastoral visit in a hospital, a nursing home or someone who wants a pastor to talk to a wayward son or husband.
    The call of the military and first responders for chaplain support.
    Oh, I could keep going on and on how even those who do not come to church still look up to the church.

    Duane, I wish you had such experiences because they are marvelous times for the church and a wayward world.

  239. Duane Arnold says:

    I’ve had the experiences for over 40 years… not standing on the sidelines.

  240. Em says:

    MLD, ” before betrayal occurs. ” maybe women pick up on the more subtle signals, warning signs quicker than men… But one can usually tell when someone is stalking …
    Time to grab the one being stalked or both, perhaps and let them know that folks think their friendship is headed in the wrong direction. … Be a busybody and put out the potential fire? Better than the alternative… or so it seems to me… Maybe that’s what old ladies are here for. .👵

  241. Mike E. says:

    U.S. sending migrant children from different countries to Mexico.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/us/migrant-children-expulsions-mexico.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

    Don’t worry, anyone. It’s The NY Times…fake news for sure.

  242. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, so why do you imply no one wants anything to do with the church?
    Perhaps you want to refocus the previous comment.

  243. Dread says:

    Duane

    Having political conversations on a blog with other Christian pastors and leaders hardly constitutes being culture warriors.

    Who is this “we” wondering that no one listens to. If it was a mega church you’d decry why so many people listen to “them.” Some listen some don’t. I can name many church denoms that long ago lost their constituents. You wouldn’t measure them by that standard.

    We have to stop hating our churches and nation so much.

    Loving your nation is not nationalism and critiquing the culture is not being a “warrior.”

    Today has been useful and vigorous. Yes with our usual dose of useless and petty. It’s all in the mix. And we need each other more than ever.

  244. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    “Loving your nation is not nationalism and critiquing the culture is not being a ‘warrior.'”

    It is also not reflective theology…

  245. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, we know what the polls say but do we know what they mean?
    How many young people who don’t identify as churched will still insist on a church wedding – – or will insist that mom gets a Christian burial.

    As in politics I am sure we come from 180° polar views on what constitutes a healthy church. Numbers reductions do not bother me at all if people are leaving because Christian teaching cramps their perception of life.
    My thoughts on church growth is to grow the individual.

    Jesus too didn’t care if he was surrounded by less “christians” and Jesus didn’t hire a Barna group to figure out what was going wrong.

  246. Jean says:

    Duane,

    One thing that contributes to the stereotype that Trump supporters are unintelligent is the observation amongst Trump’s critics that he treats his own supporters as if they were stupid.

    In his latest effort to convince his supporters and others on the fence that the coronavirus pandemic is nothing to worry about, he first attacked the press and Democrats for making it an issue, over covering it, and exaggerating its negative impact on the economy and people’s lives.

    This almost did the trick, but there was still the problem of the high hospitalizations and the interviews with countless doctors pleading with the public to use mitigation. So, Trump came out this last week with a new argument: The doctors are exaggerating the impact of Covid to make more money from their patients. Trump is claiming that doctors get paid more for diagnosing a Covid illness, so that’s what the doctors do.

    So essentially, the medical profession is in league with the Press and Democrats to hood wink the American people.

    Now, who would put out such filth, lies, evil and deception, unless he believes that his rally attendees will buy it? I think this lies a lot at the root of the stereotype. It sounds like the kind of love that the devil has for a Christian, who “has his best interests at heart.”

  247. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Because young people leave the church because the church dictates, “thou shalt not be trying to get in your girl friend’s pants” is not a good reason for the church to change in order to maintain the morning attendance count.

    Now if we want to talk about those who leave because we have not catechized them rigorously, that is a different story.

  248. Dread says:

    I do think covid 19 will be the defeat of Trump. His lack of empathy served him well in the combat of press and politic but poorly in pandemic.

    And Duane “It is also not reflective theology…” now there’s some repartee! I may have to turn in my smoking jacket. I’ve been relegated… how shall I ever regain my dignity?

    Reflective theology? “Come on man…!”

  249. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    Reflective, intentional or even systematic… Any theological observation would be a relief… BTW, I still have a smoking jacket 😁

  250. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I’m still trying to figure out how the Christian Nationalism works. It seems if you mention God and Country you are guilty of being a Christian Nationalist.
    I was just watching the Queen of the Left – Kamala speaking in Tucson and she mentioned her strong guiding faith, then invoked the name of John McCain and called herself a proud patriotic American.
    So the question – is Kamala a Christian Nationalist?

  251. Dread says:

    MLD

    No she is just an inveterate fraud but that laugh is going to be four years of comedic relief. Well, it will be torture but I can already see the caricature of her face on the Joker… besides it will be a politically correct update against the white hegemony in comics.

  252. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Dread – you don’t like her continual little girl giggles?

  253. Jean says:

    We’re fortunate to have a graduate of the house of Babel, I mean Bethel, or is it Beth-aven, who’s supernatural ministry skills have trained him to define others’ faith as fraudulent.

  254. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think he was calling into question her being a ‘proud patriotic American’ – a title she may bear in the future after the death of America as we know it.

  255. Dread says:

    Jean,

    To clarify, she called Joe a rapist and a racist just before joining the ticket with her eery laugh about “that was a debate” so she admitted her fraud status there. Her strong guiding faith led her through that trial. Anyone who follows these political creatures for their enduring faith is misled.

    Second, where did you surmise that I am from Bethel’s school of ministry? I have never been part of their school? No supernatural powers are needed to see fraudulence within the body politic. Luther had no trouble seeing the devil and anointing him with his vitriol.

    I am not from any school of ministry.

  256. Duane Arnold says:

    “inveterate fraud”, “politically correct”, “white hegemony”, “Queen of the left”, “little girl giggles”, “death of America as we know it”…

    Theology? Theology? Bueller? Anyone?

  257. Jean says:

    “Contrary to claims in viral internet posts, Sen. Kamala Harris did not call former Vice President Joe Biden a “racist” or a “rapist.” ”

    https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/harris-hasnt-called-biden-a-racist-or-a-rapist/

  258. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane – you complain of Christian Nationalism all the time – there is no theology there.
    Now another point – I see absolutely no theology in politics – I can keep them separate – I refuse to make my unbelieving friends vote on issues because of my religious belief – I see politics more in the realm of natural law – and I think Jesus did also.

    So, if I vote against a tax increase in my county, I am not required to back it up with a Bible verse.

  259. Duane Arnold says:

    “… you complain of Christian Nationalism all the time – there is no theology there.”

    Apart from it being a heresy…

  260. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    ** My disclaimer – Personally I do not think there is anything actually defined as Christian Nationalism – I think it is just a tool used by leftist christians to toss into a conversation**

    That being said, can you show me the definitive bible verse? Does Christian Nationalism deny that Jesus Christ is God himself or that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? Does Christian Nationalism anywhere other than in your own mind deny any of the statements of the historic creeds?
    I think heresy hunters may be heretical – but I can’t back it up with a bible verse so I won’t mention it.

  261. Dread says:

    Jean

    Offering fact checker data is as trustworthy as your understanding of my training. We all heard what she said.

    And Duane

    Seriously you’re the hall monitor and the word police? The rules of PP are that we have to pass the Duane Arnold theology test?

    On a break

  262. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    Just looking at the posts (also known as yard signs) and making an observation…

  263. Duane Arnold says:

    MLD

    I’ve already written on this… Additionally since you “Personally… do not think there is anything actually defined as Christian Nationalism – I think it is just a tool used by leftist christians to toss into a conversation…” there is really no place for a reasoned conversation. I think you’re more comfortable with slogans.

  264. Mike E. says:

    I have a question. Reading Hebrews 10 this morning about our great high priest and his finished work. “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”
    Hebrews 10:22 –
    I am one with a bit of an overactive conscience. That is, I feel guilty probably 99.9% of the time. Catholic upbringing? LOL. My question is, how can I obtain the full assurance? Is it only a matter of faith? Overcoming doubt? Any thoughts are appreciated. 😎

  265. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I think you’re more comfortable with slogans.”
    Yet you are the one who defined blog posts (I am assuming yours are included) as yard signs.
    Here was your yard sign I was responding to – “Apart from it being a heresy…”

    This is not rocket science. But as another disclaimer, I too sometimes run from difficult discussions — but it’s a beautiful day here in NW AZ – gonna be 90 again so I think I will get out for awhile. Cheers to ALL!!

  266. Em says:

    MLD @7:48… Amen from this evangelical corner… But
    I’m seeing hints of full moonitis developing here….

    Sean Comnery has passed into eternity…. have no idea of the status of his soul, but i still enjoyed his James Bond portrayals… do need to confess?

  267. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mike E. – just my point of view – you have been fully assured through the promises of Jesus – it’s there. I think you need to just say “thank you Lord”

  268. Jean says:

    Mike,

    If you are baptized into Christ, you are provided with complete full assurance through the infallible, immutable, omnipotent promises of God. Look below:

    “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.”
    ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-22‬ ‭ESV‬‬

  269. Mike E. says:

    Yeah thanks MLD and Jean. I thank it may be more of an issue with mental illness for me. It’s difficult… But God is gracious. You’re correct though as I also read in Hebrews of taking care to enter into his rest by believing the promises. That is why I have the Jesus person pocket promise book on my phone to help battle the mind and the evil one. ✝️

  270. Mike E. says:

    Would you like to know another of the manifestations of my mental illness? Probably not…🤣… I am a journalism major and grammatical and spelling errors send me into a tailspin of anxiety. I’m somewhat joking. But I do much of my writing by voice now. There’s nothing worse than being a grammar maniac and dealing with speech to text LOL.

  271. Em says:

    Mike E, there are many places in The Book where it exhorts us to believe, so you might consider that verse that instructs faith increases by hearing the words in The Book….
    We do need more teachers who focus on the Bible, rather than tickling the ears of a bunch of fickle, shallow samplers of the Faith…
    I’d point you the writings of a now in God’s presence Houston teacher, who came out of a military background, but Michael would probably have a heart attack and join him in Eternity.
    He was accused of heresies, but i have a library of his writings and agree with 90%. I do, however, part company on baptism as i think that water baptism, while not the Spirit baptism that saves is still commanded as a demonstration of our commitment. Been sprinkled and immersed and, believe me immersion is much more humbling, so i tend to lean toward dunking.. With apologies to the sprinklers 😇
    God will keep you, dear Mike – He will

  272. Mike E. says:

    Thanks Em..you’re correct…He will keep me. Just constantly battling the anxiety of a rewired brain constantly poking at me. 🤷🏻‍♂️ ❤️

  273. Jean says:

    “I do, however, part company on baptism as i think that water baptism, while not the Spirit baptism that saves is still commanded as a demonstration of our commitment.”

    Indeed you do. Your words not mine.

    Mike,

    We all have issues of one sort or another, and to the extent that you struggle with mental illness, Christ is making all things new and will heal all our illnesses in the resurrection.

    For now, however, we believe in a simple faith:

    “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children.”

    If anyone tries to take the promises of God from you, just leave them with the wise and understanding. Our faith is the faith of little children.

  274. Em says:

    Mike, the brain is an interesting organ and yes, it can feed us delusions. Been there and i think we all have to greater or lesser degrees in our pilgrim journey here.
    Your new spirit birth, as Jean observed, begins as a child and, childlike, can be trusted. It can be trusted much more than human logic at times…

  275. Jean says:

    “Your new spirit birth, as Jean observed”

    What Jean observed is your new birth by “water and the Spirit” (Jn. 3:5).

    Christ gave His Church specific and explicit sacred signs (not pointers, but the things pointed to) as gifts of his favor towards us, expressed in His promises, to provide us with assurance and hope. These include the of office of the keys, Baptism and Holy Communion. He has given the church a multiplicity of signs, because He knows human faith is weak and unsure at times (especially when we sin or suffer spiritual attack) and so He wishes to provide us with assurance to give us a good conscience before God and man.

    If a church strips away these signs, then what? Should a Christian prove his own assurance through humility or moral living or charitable giving, or some other work of the flesh? How will he be sure he’s done enough? Can his works atone for his sins in his conscience?

    Or should a Christian seek assurance through a charismatic experience, like speaking in tongues? Will that cleanse a conscience?

    Or should a Christian seek assurance through an inner voice of the Spirit? What some call a self-authenticating justification. Are you willing to trust yourself to your own inner voice? Will that cleanse a conscience?

    Or maybe you believe Christians are not provided with assurance. In that case your conscience will never by quiet.

  276. Mike E. says:

    I believe in the efficacy of Christ’s blood as the payment, fully and completely, and the pardon for sin. And that salvation is eternal. It will never be taken away. I do believe that fully, and completely. But I’m the guy that sometimes gets stuck in Romans 7, and freaks out over it instead of continuing to Romans 8. Because I see that my behavior does not always line up with the behavior I’ve been called to. Then I feel frightened and worried and scared and insane, to be honest. It’s anxiety, mostly. Always a spiritual component, yes, but more a struggle with the mind.

  277. Em says:

    Mike, i grew up in my grandparent’s home. He’d been a pastor, a product of the holiness movement at the turn of the last century. Good, people, but you couldn’t even say darn in his house as it was a substitute for a stronger profanity. I was doomed. But then i discovered grace, God’s wonderful grace! Still, today, i believe my grandfather’s prayers brought me there, even though i couldn’t meet his criteria for the walk…
    P.S. Mike’s gravatar is the face of one of the good guys – IMO. 😉

  278. Em says:

    Jean, i was making an observation on your “children” comment, on which we concur, i think
    Thank you for pointing out our differing conclusions as to how we get therr. …
    BTW… I did “get there”… 😉

  279. Jean says:

    I am sorry for people, left or right, who invest their souls, their health, their hopes and dreams, in what can and often is shaken, who miss out on the stability and firm foundation of the kingdom of God: “let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken.” I can see how that would be extremely depressing, angering, confusing, etc.

    In that vein, I invite anyone who is looking for solace this evening to pray Psalm 91. It’s pure Gospel from start to finish.

  280. bob1 says:

    Boy, I would hope everyone, no matter their political leanings ,would be united in opposition to what happened today in Texas.

    This is WRONG, no matter who’s doing it or who they’re doing it to. This is Stormtrooper territory. This has no place in America. I hope law enforcement does their job.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/biden-camp-cancels-austin-texas-event-after-pro-trump-ambush-on-campaign-bus

  281. Jean says:

    I saw that bob1. That’s the 1st and 2nd Amendment life in the MAGA Universe. The dystopian gospel under Cyrus. I expect him to condemn it any minute now.

  282. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Sounds like peaceful protest ala BLM and Antifa, blocking freeways etc and never called out by any den candidate until they realized it was hurting their campaign.

    I don’t approve in either case.

  283. Em says:

    Psalm 91…..
    The Psalm i sent m son in the Marine Corp many years ago .🙏

  284. Dread says:

    “I hope law enforcement does it’s job.”

    I think we all can agree that we want law enforcement to do it’s job in our cities.

    Re-Fund and Re-empower the Police

  285. dread says:

    (sic) its

  286. Jean says:

    “I hope law enforcement does it’s job.”

    Presupposes that the job of law enforcement which we hope for is one that is color blind, that is political party blind, that is economic class blind.

    Until then, do not re-fund or re-empower.

  287. Mike E. says:

    Most all the law enforcement unions endorsed Trump. Em…your 11:43. Thank you. Very kind of you.

  288. Jean says:

    Going into the weekend before the election, I feel very chastened. I called the 2016 wrong. I thought that the Access Hollywood Tape would seal Trump’s defeat. I was wrong, dead wrong.

    So, I am reticent to offer any prediction regarding the election outcome next week. Nevertheless I also am an optimist. I believe in the goodness of the American people. I believe we are driven more by love than hate. Maybe I’m a dreamer, but I hope I’m not the only one. Therefore, with fear and trembling, I will offer a humble opinion.

    I believe in my heart that when your neighbor has grieved you, then slapping him in the face, calling him an as****le, trying to ruin his reputation, and even sticking your finger straight up your butt and then shaking his hand, may feel great and satisfying. But I believe that that great feeling of doing unto others as you feel they have done to you eventually wears thin.

    I don’t think we can live on that feeling. Are any of your as tired of it as I am? Temporarily it may give us a boost, but it rots us in our inner person. It’s a rot that one experiences through lost sleep, ulcers, and broken relationships, if not worse. Therefore, I believe that we need more than hate to live on.

    So, my humble prediction is that Trump will lose the election, whether he and his organs of power accept the loss or not. I don’t think he will lose on the basis of anything other than “we cannot go on living like that.” We are tired of being told to hate. We cannot continue to be ruled by a national representative who rules like that, who frames everything in terms of a polarity between good and evil, between friends and enemies.

    We know it feels good to divide and demonize, but it is a road to destruction that we see already beginning to play out, not reconciliation, and it scares us. We are ready for a leader who is guided by the principle of reconciliation. We want a leader who will work day and night for reconciliation, not division and destruction. We don’t see that tens of millions of Americans are enemies to be defeated. That’s a fools errand.

    Let’s go bigger! Lets work for healing divisions. Jesus didn’t teach his disciples to love their enemies solely for the sake of the enemy. Jesus knows that hate poisons the hater.

  289. Em says:

    I remember a story that went around up here on the PNW… B. G. was pulled over for speeding in his residential neighborhood. “Do you know who I am?”. He was ticketed.
    On two occasions i have been pulled over and, after a reasoned, polite discussion i was not issued a ticket. I received a ticket for being a day late getting my car tabs on. I said that i didn’t realize that i was late and they were sitting on my dresser (they were). The officer looked at me and asked if i knew where to pay my fine. I responded with the right location and he said that i was mistaken and gave me detailed instructions to another city building across town in the other direction. Wrong place. I think it was payback for me saying that my tabs were at home on my dresser.
    My point? I think most of what we call abusive behavior on the part of our LEO is disrespectful or antagonistic reactions to being confronted by them. Are there a few lemons? Probably and probably some nervous cops that don’t want to get picked off by a perp also!
    Defunding them is mindless madness – period.

  290. Em says:

    I wonder if every word translated”hate” in the Book is correctly translated? ? ? Luke 14:26? ?? ?

    A good spiritual thermometer might be, do you take pleasure in thinking of someone not sharing your mindset in hell? Uh oh

  291. MM says:

    A secular message worthy of posting:

    https://youtu.be/viSIBTlCDdg

  292. bob1 says:

    MM,

    I like the message. I think it perfectly expresses this part of what
    Jean said:

    “We know it feels good to divide and demonize, but it is a road to destruction that we see already beginning to play out, not reconciliation, and it scares us. We are ready for a leader who is guided by the principle of reconciliation. We want a leader who will work day and night for reconciliation, not division and destruction. We don’t see that tens of millions of Americans are enemies to be defeated. That’s a fools errand.

    Let’s go bigger! Lets work for healing divisions. Jesus didn’t teach his disciples to love their enemies solely for the sake of the enemy. Jesus knows that hate poisons the hater.

  293. Em says:

    MM, that utube looks suspiciously like Dem propaganda…?
    Dunno, though do i. 🙆

  294. bob1 says:

    Em.

    How could you possibly conclude what you concluded? How could you think this was a partisan message?

    Did you see the message from the posters, on the site?

    “Remember, stay friends, stay safe and don’t be an a**hole!”

    And the narrator’s final comment about the 2020 election?

    “We’re all in this together. Don’t be an a**hole.”

    Pretty clear what their intent is.

  295. Em says:

    well, bob1, using my fire tablet without sound may have contributed
    🙂 yet it was Biden/Harris posters, so….
    but as i noted, i don’t know, do i?
    God keep and keep us all from being a**holes LOL

  296. Dread says:

    I don’t think it possible for two men to see the election more starkly opposite than myself and the 4:39 post.

    Biden is a critical theory totalitarian.

    May the Lord spare us from this whip of scorpions.

    His agenda as written in his website may as well be BLM’s credo. It is as destructive.

  297. bob1 says:

    Law and order prevails!

    Good news about the thugs in Texas. Yay.

    “The FBI is looking into a Friday incident in which a group of Trump supporters surrounded and followed a Biden campaign bus as it drove up I-35 in Hays County. Wendy Davis was on the Biden bus at the time, according to multiple sources.” Texas Tribune

  298. Dread says:

    Trump supporters show up at rallies. Biden’s show up at riots.

  299. Baby says:

    I hope the masks start working soon.

  300. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well since the FBI didn’t put BLM out of business for all their nonsense and intimidation, I can’t imagine the Trump drivers are guilty of anything other than reckless driving. Write the ticket, move on and justice will have been served.

  301. Duane Arnold says:

    “In this world, therefore, the dominion of good men is profitable, not so much for themselves as for human affairs. But the dominion of bad men is hurtful chiefly to themselves who rule, for they destroy their own souls by greater license in wickedness; while those who are put under them in service are not hurt except by their own iniquity. For to the just all the evils imposed on them by unjust rulers are not the punishment of crime, but the test of virtue. Therefore the good man, although he is a slave, is free; but the bad man, even if he reigns, is a slave, and that not of one man, but, what is far more grievous, of as many masters as he has vices; of which vices when the divine Scripture treats, it says, For of whom any man is overcome, to the same he is also the bond-slave.”

    Augustine Of Hippo

  302. bob1 says:

    Well, then I guess up is down, and down is up.

    This type of harassment will win you an interview with the FBI…

    Trump Praises Supporters Who Surrounded Biden Bus
    President Trump posted video of his supporters surrounding a Biden-Harris campaign bus with the comment, “I LOVE TEXAS!”

    Witnesses told the New York Times the Trump supporters were trying to force the bus off the road.

  303. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We all saw BLM spurring GOP folks leaving the party convention in August and keeping them from getting to their cars.
    No outcry for punishment from the left – no call for an FBI investigation. This is just further Democrat electioneering – weak sauce.

  304. Em says:

    MLD @8:50… 😄 😘

  305. bob1 says:

    I’m trying to shed a tear for one of the lamebrains that plotted to kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer. But I’m having a tough time. Poor little rightwing snowflake. MAYBE NEXT TIME DON’T DO SOMETHING SO OUTRAGEOUSLY STUPID! Actions have consequences! LOL

    Whitmer kidnap suspect wants out of jail. He’s diabetic, and fears COVID-19

    https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/30/suspect-whitmer-kidnap-plot-jail-kaleb-franks/6085247002/?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot

  306. Em says:

    bob1 – amen – to use an old tv quote, ” you do the crime, you do the time! ”

    Question is, to how great a degree are we at the mercy of what gets reported…. we all think the other side is being misled….

  307. Mike E. says:

    Some cry for law and order, until they must be submissive to the rule of law. Mr. Trump has never respected the rule of law, except when he can use it to his own advantage. Other than that, the rule of law be damned. Law and Order was a slogan used by another lawless president, Mr. Nixon. It’s all a sham. They’re only interested in the law when it suits them and their agendas. I suppose our chief law enforcement officer, Mr. Barr, is interested in the rule of law? Sorry, just spit out my lunch laughing. Law and Order is a really good tv show.

  308. bob1 says:

    Em,

    Yeah, it would be really neat if a chaplain or pastor or whoever would witness to them of the “real Jesus.” We should pray!

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