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69 Responses

  1. Em says:

    Would it be a stretch too far to say there is a similar mindset between those who follow Taliban and those victims of Jonestown? ? ?

  2. Em says:

    Well. …. guess nobody wants to stick their neck out to answer my question….
    IMV – there ARE people who want to be told what to think…
    Nature or nurture? Dunno
    BTW – developing the mind of Christ comes with disciplined study, not from mindlessly following a charismatic know-it-all teacher
    Or so it seems to me……

  3. Michael says:

    Em,

    I don’t think it advisable to compare two groups from entirely different cultures to one another.

  4. Em says:

    Point taken, Michael….. 👍 😏

  5. Jean says:

    I just read a story of a Covid patient in Southern Oregon who died last Thursday in a Douglas county hospital Emergency Department while waiting for a open bed in the ICU which was completely full.

  6. The New Victor says:

    Discussing the Vax with my 47yo BFF. He won’t get it. He’s not political. There’s no rancor in our discussion though. More pressing is the Caldor fire in Cali which is growing and zero % contained. His dad evacuated. The evac warning areas have expanded greatly. Another friend worked all day, and will tomorrow, to help evac livestock.

  7. Em says:

    on another tack…..
    Is it biblical to declare that God installs a nation’s leadership?
    If so – no i’m not turning political here – can we assume that Joe Biden is now God’s will for the United States?
    Yes, i have opinions regarding the man, but that is not my point.

  8. Michael says:

    I think you can make a case that God appoints rulers…but you can’t make a case about why He chooses who He does…

  9. bob1 says:

    Is it biblical to declare that God installs a nation’s leadership?

    God allows and appoints — I agree with Michael — we’re not privy to the “why’s” of God. On lots of things, I think we’re called to be agnostics. To “declare” what God’s will is, is to me, idolatry.

    I also think when we move from “facts” to “interpretations” WRT these kinds of global, unanswerable questions is where lots of trouble begins.

  10. Em says:

    “Moving from facts to interpretations” ……
    “Why”…..
    Good ponders, thank you, gentlemen

  11. Xenia says:

    I am so naïve. I thought when people’s loved ones came down with COVID and were in the hospital on ventilators about to die, the anti-vaxxers would have second thoughts but boy, was I wrong. It’s the hospital treatment that’s killing all these people, not the virus itself which is just the flu, after all. I was told this today and I swear, I was so angry at this person I wanted to smack her but of course I didn’t. People take no precautions, get sick unto death, and it’s the fault of the hospital that’s trying to save them.

    i guess if I listened to this person a bit longer (I turned my back on her) the idea would be that “they” are deliberately using a treatment (ventilators) that kills people so “they” can claim more COVID deaths so “they” can control us. What’s the end gamed here? Who benefits from ratcheting up the COVID death count? “They” want to take away our freedoms… again, who are “they” and is half the country in on this? Some are saying they are glad they still have their guns and I am wondering who they want to shoot?

    The enemy is the virus, not the people trying to protect us from it.

  12. Em says:

    Are there any lessons/examples to build a premise from in Saul and David?

  13. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I’ve heard the same thing.
    If I ponder too long the things that people believe right now, I grow hopeless…

  14. Michael says:

    “Are there any lessons/examples to build a premise from in Saul and David?”

    God was running a theocracy in Israel…whole different situation.

  15. bob1 says:

    Xenia’s experience of reality deniers makes me think of Romans 1 —

    “exchanging the truth for a lie”

  16. Xenia says:

    Hi bob1,

    Here’s what I think. A large group of people spent the past 18 months telling people the virus was a hoax of some kind and the past months telling people the vaccine was the mark of the Beast or weaponized bio-tech or something deadly to either body or soul. So when people followed their advice and began to die, they could not take the responsibility for these deaths so they shifted the blame onto the hospitals.

  17. Xenia says:

    Over here, we disinvited ourselves from a large wedding next month that will be full of virus-deniers and anti-vaxxers. How many people in that crowd will get sick (none, I hope) and if some do, will the leadership of that church take any responsibility or will they refer people to the current conspiracy theory du jour?

  18. Michael says:

    The question of responsibility for the deaths of those who leaders influenced will be something to reckon with…

  19. Em says:

    one other thing to ponder…..
    vaccine mandates open the door to a future predicted mark of the beast to involve in world commerce…
    is that a stretch? well, it probably depends on one’s view of history
    i still say that the choice should be up to the individual with the counsel of their trusted doctor – what one injects in one’s own body should not be a government mandate
    BTW, there is some truth in questioning what we are advised to treat covid with …. hospitals seem to limit themselves to the popular mindset now…..

  20. Em says:

    Michael @ 1:17… will think on that one… 🙂

  21. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    Michael and I were talking about it… bulletproof glass in some admission areas because of threats to doctors and nurses.

  22. Michael says:

    “vaccine mandates open the door to a future predicted mark of the beast to involve in world commerce…”

    We’ve had vaccine mandates for at least 50 years…

    The mark of the best will be a willing decision to worship the anti-Christ…not a forced imposition on unwilling people.

  23. Michael says:

    I oppose the Covid vaccine mandates…on scientific and moral grounds.
    I also oppose them because if we lose 25% of the nurses still working, we’re …screwed.

  24. Em says:

    Vaccine mandates to travel abroad and for military personnel….
    General population blanket mandates? ? ?

  25. Jean says:

    “So when people followed their advice and began to die, they could not take the responsibility for these deaths so they shifted the blame onto the hospitals.”

    This is common; it is the innate need of human beings for justification. Without one’s justification in Christ, one attempts to self justify. The Christian lives a life of repentance, receiving Christ’s justification daily.

    The truth is all attempts at self justification melt before the Lord at the last judgment.

  26. Michael says:

    “General population blanket mandates? ? ?”

    Every kid who ever attends public school has to have at least five different vaccinations.

    I had to have at least that many…so we’re looking at almost 60 years…

  27. Jean says:

    “I oppose the Covid vaccine mandates…on scientific and moral grounds.”

    I comply with the laws implemented by the duly elected leaders that God has given me, which do not cause me to deny my Lord.

  28. Dread says:

    Em

    You are correct to be concerned with government coercion that limits people’s free access to markets. It is naive for us to narrow that concern to apocalyptic events. The sweep of totalitarianism is endangering people all around the world. Crisis is always a favorite moment for totalitarians.

  29. Michael says:

    “I comply with the laws implemented by the duly elected leaders that God has given me, which do not cause me to deny my Lord.”

    I’m vaccinated…but I oppose forcing people to take a shot that has known side effects in some cases and no real track record long term.
    Pragmatically, we’ll be in deep trouble when the nurses quit…and they will.

  30. Jean says:

    When I joined the military, I had a whole bank of vaccines. There was no choice, and not even a description or discussion. It was one after another all at once. And if you were going to certain countries, there was another bank of vaccinations on top of the first. They didn’t even care what you had as a civilian

    People spout off about patriotism, when it comes to someone else taking a knee. But when it comes to actually being patriotic, which vaccination is a token of practical patriotism, we give our nation the middle finger.

  31. Michael says:

    “You are correct to be concerned with government coercion that limits people’s free access to markets.”
    That is a legit concern…but not on theological grounds.

  32. Michael says:

    The current political debacle here will return the totalitarian Trump to power…but will the holy object?
    I think not…

  33. bob1 says:

    I wonder what would’ve happened in London early in WWII when they were being attacked by Nazi planes and all British citizens were told to put black sheets over all windows.

    Did some say, “Naw, that’s restricting my liberties”? Was GB a totalitarian society for doing so?

    Those individuals would’ve been putting many other lives in danger, well, like now.

    In a war or public health situation, your actions (or lack of directly affect the welfare of others. Why is that so hard to figure out?

    They would’ve been seen as selfish. Not a word we hear much about lately…

  34. Jean says:

    Every vaccine has side effects for a minority of users.

    When the FDA or any other regulatory agency approves of impurities in water, pollution in air, pesticides in produce, hormones and antibiotics in livestock, chemical additives in food, approval of medicines, they in all cases there is a “risk reward “ analysis. Can we opt out of air, water and food?

    When minors go down into a coal mine, is there not a statistical certainty that a percentage of minors will suffer from either a mine accident or a lung disease? Is it realistic to argue that in a small Appellation town where the mine is the only job in town that minors have a choice?

    The nurses need to decide if they are in the healing business or not. Same with the nursing home people. And if you are a Christian you need to understand that there is no such thing as a risk free love of neighbor. If you don’t believe me, ask Jesus.

  35. Dread says:

    “When I joined the military, I had a whole bank of vaccines.“

    You “joined”

  36. Michael says:

    “The nurses need to decide if they are in the healing business or not.”

    I know some of these nurses.
    They’ve faithfully worked through this pandemic in sacrificial, heroic ways.
    I will not challenge their desire to heal…its been proven.

  37. Jean says:

    Yes, I joined. But (a) the vaccine policy was not in my enlistment agreement, and (b) in a early era when military service was a duty of citizenship, those men did not join.

    IMO one of the greatest mistakes of America was ending compulsory national service for all Americans. The result has been devastating.

  38. bob1 says:

    Hasn’t it always been assumed that as a citizen of a certain country, you have certain rights as well as responsibilities?

  39. Jean says:

    bob1,

    Not anymore. Today is all about rights with no responsibilities.

  40. bob1 says:

    Jean,

    Yeah. I can see where this severing of the two leads to people only caring about their own welfare, period. Sad, indeed.

  41. bob1 says:

    In those days there was no king in Israel.

    Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

    Judges 21:25

    ESV

  42. Linn says:

    My! Good discussion about COVID. I appreciate a place where we can interact as civilized people with different opinions but mutual respect.

    I was going to see my parents (82 and 89, respectively) at the end of September. I reluctantly cancelled the trip as I return to my little petri dish of students (all 250 of them) beginning tomorrow. I work in an elementary school. No problems with masks/vaccines at my school-we’re very “pro”, but the students I teach can’t be vaccinated. And that’s where I took a pause. I would probably do okay with a breakthrough infection, but my dad, in particular, probably wouldn’t. So, we’ll keep up with the phone calls, and I’m hoping for February of next year. I do think that vaccination is the key to getting COVID under control. I know others don’t agree, but I think historically, there are a lot of reasons to push vaccination for all the able-bodied who can receive it. The last article that i read put out by a reputable news source said that only 3% of the population can’t take the vaccine, and I believe a person in the medical field, especially, needs to have a valid medical reason to not have it. Just my thoughts.

  43. Whatever happened to Romans 13? Or “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” Or what about Peter’s words from 1 Peter 2:13-17? “Submit to every human authority because of the Lord, whether to the emperor as the supreme authority or to governors as those sent out by him to punish those who do what is evil and to praise those who do what is good. For it is God’s will that you silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good. Submit as free people, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but as God’s slaves. Honor everyone. Love the brothers and sisters. Fear God. Honor the emperor. directive to I’m not for mandates, but if they come, on what Biblical grounds will people stand on to resist the government.”

    I’m not for mandates, but if they come, what Biblical leg do people have to stand on to resist? Yes, if the government calls on us to sin or do something that is disobedient to God, we can confidently say “no!” just as Peter and John did in Acts 4. God called them to preach the Gospel, and when the rulers told them to stop, they refused. But we can’t ignore or rebel against laws just because we don’t like them. The people of God are to walk in peace, not be known as Zealots who decide when and when not to come under governmental rule.

  44. Em says:

    i am forgetting mandatory vaccination of children – sorry
    when i was a child my mother refused to let me be vaccinated for anything – i sat alone in the classroom as all the others went down to the nurse’s office for their shots….
    i’ve had quite a few since then as an adult – tetanus, polio (my husband’s uncle was a biochemist on Salk’s team that developed that one) and MY children all got their DPTs etc….

  45. Em says:

    taking the mark of the beast will be a government mandate, should it happen in my lifetime, that i will refuse…. 🙁

  46. Michael says:

    PH,

    There is a new cottage industry dedicated to getting around that passage.
    It states that we must resist unbiblical laws and mandates…and anything that imposes on human freedom is unbiblical and must be opposed…

  47. Michael says:

    Linn,

    The problem with that 3% number is that the CDC says that even immunocompromised people should be mandated to take the vaccine…just under strict medical supervision.
    That does not appeal to most people in that situation.
    The CDC also says that the Lyme disease that ravaged my family and the treatments that they received overseas don’t exist…so you will not see many Lyme patients take the shot.

  48. Micheal,

    Well, getting around these scriptures will require some pretty strenuous hermeneutical gymnastics. It’s almost as if Peter knew the propensities of the human when he wrote: “Submit as free people, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but as God’s slaves.”

  49. Michael says:

    PH,

    There are people who used to frequent here who preach it constantly…

  50. bob1 says:

    taking the mark of the beast will be a government mandate,

    Each of us is entitled to believe any lunacy we want.

    You won’t find a single reputable theologian who believes that.

    Especially WRT the United States. Ridiculous.

  51. LInn says:

    bob1-Reputable theologians seem to be in short supply these days. We have one not too far from where I live in California that is granting medical “exemptions” for adults that don’t want their children to be vaccinated or wear masks. It’s very discouraging.

  52. How can one stare such scriptures in the face, and teach them with a straight face?

    Like I said, I’m not all pro-vaccine. The vaccine is obviously not the “silver bullet” solution to COVID.

    But the reaction to the vaccine has been, to me, over the top. As soon as my son finished his chemo, we got him vaccinated. The treatment left his lungs a mess, and he doesn’t need another crisis in his life.

    There will come a point when we must let people follow their conscience and let the chips fall.

  53. Linn says:

    Michael,

    Thanks for your clarification on the CDC number, and i know there was a mishandling, and continues to be, regarding the situation with Lyme disease (I have a friend who was two years before she was diagnosed when she kept asking about Lyme since she is an avid outdoors woman). But, it’s still a very small percentage of the population. What I find so discouraging is people who are dying in hospitals saying they didn’t know, they weren’t sure, they procrastinated, and they’re leaving a spouse and three little kids behind. Also, I don’t know about other states, but here in California, if you don’t want to be vaccinated, you have to submit to weekly testing. That seems fair to me.

  54. bob1 says:

    PH.

    Good on you!

  55. Michael says:

    Linn,

    Weekly testing is a fair alternative, I think…

  56. Linn, that does seem like a rational approach to those who don’t desire a shot in the arm. But man….those nose swabs are torture!

  57. LInn says:

    Pineapple Head,

    Agreed…but they would probably first screen with a rapid test before sending them off for the stick in the nose.

  58. Michael says:

    Meanwhile….

    Our closest Walmart is now closed for 2 days to sanitize it…rumors are of a massive in store outbreak.

    A cafe I occasionally dine at is closed…all employees sick.

    And…our Jack In The Box just had to shut down.

  59. This coming Saturday I’m taking my son over to Seattle for the Hawks last preseason game against the Chargers. Someone from church took pity on his 4 months through hell and gifted he and I a pair of tickets. It’s always interesting to go from Idaho to Washington…particularly Western Washington. There will be many more restrictions placed upon us that we are used to. But, we’ll deal with each situation as it comes along. The goal is for him to experience his first NFL stadium game.

  60. Michael says:

    PH,

    Trey and I were planning a big trip to see the Vikings in LA…have matching jerseys…but they will require proof of vaccination so it’s off for this year.

  61. Yeah, I’m going to bring our vax cards with us just in case. It’s only a week away, but you never know what new rules will kick into effect. I got Pfizer and he got Moderna. Who knows how effective they will be? No side effects from either set of jabs, except a sore arm for a couple of days.

    Which game were you guys looking into, Rams or Chargers? That new LA stadium must be off the chart.

  62. Michael says:

    We were going to see them play the Chargers. Pretty disappointed, to be honest.

  63. Muff Potter says:

    Xenia,
    All of your comments resonate with sanity and common sense.
    And the folks you’ve described?
    They have descended into madness.
    It makes me think of the old timey actor Edward G. Robinson in the film Soylent Green.
    The scene where he weeps into his hands saying:
    “How did we come to this?”

  64. Nathan Priddis says:

    I put the Lord my God.. and Moderna.. to the test last week at my hospital. I’ve since returned home and so far so good. As I said previously, being “admitted” meant a chair outside of the ICU row. I could touch the nearest ICU door from my chair. (Much appreciated when the door is shut) In so many words, I was informed the COVID patients are not wishing they had vacinated.

    Having a quantized concept of reality, I believe the distance from death to the Resurrection is effectively nil. This concept is invariant regardless of the individual, and year of death.

    I believe the doctrines and ideologies we had at death, are what we have at Resurrection. They constitute a portion of our personhood. If one is a Q believer, Anti-vax, Nationalist, or whatever, that is who you are. And will be.

    As supporting evidence I would cite Rev 1:10. John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. John has crossed a gap of 1900+ years, and growing.

    My theory proposes that a lot of upset Evangelicals are going to re-emerge as upset Evangelicals. If one died of COVID in 2021, the passage of time would seem to have no effect on the dead. They are asleep and unaware. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    If true, this has un-considered ramifications for the afterlife.

  65. Xenia says:

    Hi Muff, thanks.

    I am trying my best to be reasonable but sometimes it’s hard!

  66. Linnea says:

    Regarding the mandates, my employer will soon require 100% vaccination. I have recently been diagnosed with 2 autoimmune diseases, both in an active state. My doc suggested not getting the vaccine. Now, they will push it on folks like me. Some states are threatening to remove a medical license if docs write exceptions for Covid vaccines.

    What if the vaccine makes my condition much worse? I’m the one who has to live with that consequence.

  67. Michael says:

    Linnea,

    This is why I oppose the mandates…I know more than a few folks in the same boat.

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