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  1. Erunner says:

    Music for this week is up. Included a few Dove award songs. Drop by and give a listen!

    http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/beautiful-christian-music-praise-worship-april-2/

  2. Erunner says:

    After watching Jennifer Knapp on Larry King last night I came away almost wishing I hadn’t. The format was a terrible one as evidenced by her exchanges with the Horizon pastor.

    Having read a lot more about the Larry Norman documentary I don’t know up from down any more. Having Christians on both sides calling each other liars is pretty pathetic. I’m too naive to see through the smoke.

    Wonder how non believers view all of this….

  3. He Knows My Name says:

    After hearing this I think I am a Calvinist. 🙂

  4. Michael says:

    Yesterday, I read one of the two or three most disturbing, thought provoking books of my life.

    It’s called “Murder City” by Charles Bowden and it’s the story of the state of Juarez, Mexico.

    Bowden chronicles the slaughter that is occurring over the bridge from El Paso and the mind numbing gore raises theological, sociological, and political questions that we need to wrestle with.

    !2 more were murdered yesterday…almost 800 so far this year.

  5. Apple of His Eye says:

    Michael,

    The pictures you put up are great….They make me smile….

    Regarding Calvinism, it’s what it is…If a person was raised Arminian, as I was, then Calvinism takes a little time to think through…and alas it does requires thinking…I resisted Calvinism at first, but no longer…..

    I don’t understand why some Christians are so upset about Calvinism…maybe it’s a scary thought that the foundation they’ve built their theology on isn’t completely accurate…That would take some humbling for any of us, and it could make you feel a little shaken too I suppose…

    It doesn’t have to be a divisive thing, but for some I know it is…..

    A funny story…I substitute teach…A few months ago I was subbing at a school and got to talking with a student teacher during a class assembly in the cafeteria…She told me she was a Christian…I invited her to come to my classroom during recess so we could share more….She did…She was very young, right out of college…She told me what church she went to…She told me that recently the youth pastor had been asked to leave…I assumed it was immorality or drugs, etc…She went on that it was becasue he believed in this teaching called Calvinism….I nearly busted up laughing as she was so serious about this wolf in sheeps clothing that had crept into their fellowship….you can guess the fellowship of churches too…alas…

    I assured her in the limited time we had together that the youth pastor was a solid believer, right on in his theology, and that he will be an even better pastor wherever he ends up pastoring because of what happened to him at her church…..

  6. Michael Sewell says:

    Wow, A week of reflecting on church in-fighting, overt hate labeled love, and now the horror of Juarez. Michael, if you keep this up you might loose your happy thought.

  7. Michael says:

    Hi, Apple!

    Calvinism really doesn’t have to be a divisive issue…and it is sad to me that it is.

    My prayer is that the young man sent packing doesn’t allow his heart to be bitter, because those who fired him are family too…

  8. Em says:

    i’m being convinced of the wisdom of bringing our troops home to take care of business – the so-called ideal of keeping peace around the whole world has to be a concept justified only by weapons manufacturers and free world countries that want to keep their own assets on the farm and in the bank (the logic of post WW2 is yesterday’s news) – time to distill and reorganize our beautiful military and pray intensely – pray like it matters, eh?

  9. Michael says:

    Michael,

    LOL!

    I didn’t sleep last night after reading that book…I’ve written before of my fondness for Juarez.
    On a personal note, I believe that one of the people whose murder was mentioned in the book was a young man Holly and I supported and mentored while down there….a cab driver/pastor who was on fire for the Lord.

  10. RE sovereignty, election, choice me thinks we agree more than we disagree but fear the term “Calvinism” or what ever. If we were to have an honest dialogue from scratch loosing terms we’d all be drinking coffee together and saying “What a fine day this is” 🙂

    Spoke as one who was scared off by the term “Calvinism”

  11. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I think you’re completely right…I agree.

  12. E-Runner

    yeah, I love Christianity…it’s His people that scare me and drive me nuts (of which I am one). Some time you just gotta get away from His followers and get some perspective

  13. It’s the Gal 5:15 thing But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another

  14. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Right now the devouring is epidemic, both inside and between different traditions.

    It’s almost scary…

  15. Em says:

    started out in my walk with the Lord as a Presbyterian, so i suspect that much of the basis of my frame of reference was absorbed there – i haven’t a clue as to what a Calvinist is and, to tell the truth, i’m only mildly curious as i read the thots here
    But the accusation of seeing Christianity in black and white? seems like an excellent place to start IMO – one can fill in the shades of grey over time (won’t see in color until Eternity 🙂 ).
    my son is a very accomplished black and white photographer and what he prints has more detail and reveals far more than any color photo that we can take today IMNSHO
    seeing everything out from the event of the cross … i like that – dunno the label, but i like that view

  16. Sometimes it’s good to step back and get perspective. Too often, in our desire to win an argument we lose a brothers. That’s kind of the thinking with Paul in 1 Cor. 6 and the issue of taking a brother to court. It’s not so much about the process of coming to civil judgments i.e. mediation before brothers instead of secular judges, or even about airing our dirty laundry before non believers.. It’s more that when a matter get to that point,–Christians can’t resolve their issues like brothers–and it HAS to be mediated, one will win the judgment, but a relationship is severed for ever–and that is the greater loss and does greater harm to the gospel because Jesus said in John 13 it that we are friends with each other that people will know you are my disciples

  17. Too often Christians just “intersect” their lives when Jesus called us to intertwine them together. We come to church on Sunday, and those who bear his mane sit in pews next to each other, sing songs together, support the ministry together, and call themselves a “fellowship” when very little of that takes place. We are like cars at an intersection. We are polite, follow the rules–the guy on the right has the right of way etc. But that’s all the father it goes. We equate being “nice” with being loving like Jesus told us in John 13.

    But Jesus called us to much more than being nice and polite–he has Jesus called us to intertwine our lives together, That is how people will know you are my disciples

    Tertullian reciting what the Pagans were saying about Christians “Look how they love each other.” Today the pagans or outsiders are saying “Look how those Christians devour one another”

  18. And over such silly issues. There are battles we need to fight as believers, but , we don’t fight those battles. Instead we wrangle, and debate about issues, when as I said, the terms are stripped away, we agree upon.

    It’s as if we are more concerned with winning the argument and not the world!

    OK…Im off my soap box

  19. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Amen…but how do we change that?

  20. Michael Sewell says:

    In Heb 9 it talks about the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer being a sanctification for the purification of the flesh, and how much more the blood of Christ cleanse.
    The red heifer sacrifice was for the cleansing not after sinning but by being defiled by coming in contact with a dead thing. It’s impossible to avoid the results of sin, and that can leave us kind of spun.
    For me it’s good to remember to put aside all the vexing things that seem to cloud vision and steal joy and to stop and take one of the “grace showers” that Michael mentioned earlier this week.
    Now having said that, here’s the cynical and/or realistic thought I had on the Jennifer Knapp thing. I was surprised how defiant she was on Larry King, as if she were fighting a noble fight. I was surprised that she acted like she hadn’t been part of main steam evangelism, and she couldn’t sympathized at all with Pastor Bob’s mentality. I was surprised that so many came out in brutal condemnation or overly sentimental support of her homosexuality, based more on her talent and personality than on really affirming scripture.
    Then I realized that every website also mentioned HER NEW CD AND TOUR!!! arrgghh!
    THIS IS MARKETING and real issues, truth, and earnest folks are being manipulated to move some product.
    I need another grace shower.

  21. Michael says:

    Michael,

    I think you’ve assessed that situation well…

  22. Another Voice says:

    I see Piper’s answer as an example of speaking to those who already are in agreement. It really could be no other way, since I certainly would not expect Piper to answer my objections in a six minute clip. I do try to anticipate the most common objection or two when I preach on a doctrine debated among the brethren. But again, Piper is obviously not preaching here either.

    I do not think God’s sovereignty is lessened by an acceptance that there is both God’s direct and permissive will exercised in the universe – with the appropriate consequences as decreed by God.

    I agree the cross was the greatest atrocity and sin in history, but I don’t know anyone of my convictions that does not see the cross as clearly declared in Scripture as the direct will of God. I deny the logic that Piper uses in this clip that since this great sin was His direct will, then all sins and atrocity are His direct will.

    The only other Bible verse mentioned was the Proverb about the casting of the lot. I found this a little disappointing frankly. The casting of the lot was used throughout the prior dispensation for discerning what was the direct will of God in a matter. The idea that this is an example of the most random thing the writer could imagine is faulty. The casting of the lot continues all the way through Acts 1, until the giving of the Spirit and the birth of the Church at Pentecost, when we read about it no more.

    Again, I don’t have the desire to debate the doctrine in full over the internet, nor do I state that this is Piper’s complete argument in answering the question. I know he could (and does) go into far greater depth and no doubt does explain the difficult passages like Jesus saying He wanted to gather Israel, but they were unwilling, and other such verses.

    I appreciate the humility in Piper and see that as the proper fruit of this and any doctrine. My comments are just in reply to the video’s material.

  23. I can only speak for what I am doing in my small circle of influence. We are putting more effort intoto be friends with each other. Taking the time to spend time with each other. Stepping out of our comfort zones to spend time with folks we don’t know and maybe don’t like. Intertwining our lives has become a priority. We won’t stand for less.

    WE have significant small groups and they almost aren’t optional for CCS. We don’t kick people out but earnestly say if you are just looking for a Sunday morning expereince, there are several other churches who do a better job at that.

    Two weeks ago we did something as simple as put up a community bulletin board where people can post common interest type of things looking for people in the church with who they can intertwine their lives over that common interest. It’s a desire to live life together.

    If Chuck finds out about this I’ll probalby lose the dove but I am premillennial in my eschatology but I have elders and board members, and teachers in my church who are not. Those issues created division so I made the effort to set those issues as side in favor of fellowship. We have instead agreed to disagree and operate instead in mutual respect for one another. So far it works

    Little things…local things…It’s kind of like Nehemiah’s wall; Everyone did a little but in the end it effected the whole. So far it’s working. Not earth shaking stuff here Michael…it’s just doing within each of our small circle of influence what Jesus tells us to do

  24. Michael says:

    AV,

    Someday, when my mind and hands are in better shape, I’d love to go deeper on the topic.

    I think we could have a fruitful discussion without too much collateral damage… 🙂

  25. Another Voice says:

    Michael Sewell, I appreciate your perspective on Knapp – especially given your background, it carries much weight. I too see the CD promotion as a major issue in all this discussion.

  26. Michael says:

    Steve,

    It’s the little things and the local things that create the heart of the church.

    I think what you’re doing adds up to some very big things for the folks involved.

  27. To be honest….it has taken a looooooong time for me to get here but I don’t care so much about winning a theological argument about insignifiant things any more(as long as we agree on essentials). I’ve chosen friendship and mutual respect over convincing people my point of view is the correct one

  28. ideologies drive us apart…I may be wrong, but I don’t know that Jesus had a lot to say about ideology

  29. Another Voice says:

    Michael, there would be absolutely no risk of collateral damage on my end. And unlike so many who debate online, I have full confidence that the two of us could (and actually WOULD) read the other’s points, answer the other’s pointed questions. Too often such debate is fruitless because the other person ignores important points, asks 10 questions only to ignore all the answers and ask 10 more in the next post – and an all around vibe of strawmen and hostility begins to breed.

    But like you said…it will have to be another day. I will be on for awhile, but gone most of the day.

  30. Have a good day ya’ll

  31. Michael says:

    AV,

    I’d like to do it…I get lots of questions about the doctrine via email and I think it would work well here.

    A couple more days of ice packs and we may give it a shot. 🙂

  32. Michael says:

    Have a great day, Steve!

  33. jlo says:

    Michael, what’s wrong with your hands?

  34. odenfong says:

    Michael,

    Where did you get that picture of our church (the little one on the bottom)? 😉

  35. odenfong says:

    I didn’t watch the Larry King show last night, but my sentiments are like Michael Sewell’s.

    I think that we have a lot of people who are swallowing a big pill of deception and this will help to usher in the One World Church. Do you think that the AntiChrist cares about sin?

    Meanwhile, I will pray for Jennifer Knapp. She is a victim of deception and now is being used to ripple the same.

  36. Linnea says:

    Oden….if we could attend your church, we would! What a wonderful ministry and group of folks you have!

  37. odenfong says:

    Linnea,

    We would love to have you. We’re tiny, but full of agape.

  38. Michael says:

    jlo,

    Carpal tunnel and tendonitis.

    I’ve been talking too much… 🙂

  39. Please Note says:

    Michael-

    Sorry to hear how much the CTS still impacts you. I was praying that the surgeries would have reduced the impact.

    I guess not, huh?

    Still praying…

  40. Babylon's Dread says:

    Acts 4:27-28 in no way validates the predestination of every molecule in the universe nor does it necessitate that God planned every evil thing ever done in the world.

    Sovereignty does not require this viewpoint. I will not go crazy trying to figure it out despite JP’s claim otherwise. The analogy given by Piper is in NO way a logical necessity upon all things.

    However, that position is viable as an option. So I will stop there and say that those guys are my brethren…and since they think I am wrong by an act of God’s sovereign hand then perhaps they will grant me a seat at the table as well.

    Provoked Out of Cave Dread

  41. Michael says:

    PN,

    After the hernia surgery debacle I passed on the CT cut….

  42. Michael says:

    BD,

    LOL! 🙂

    Good to see you anyway…

  43. Please Note says:

    Oh, gotcha Michael. I believe I was having some surgery around that time, too, and was offline for awhile.

    Must have missed the decision against the CT cutting…

    Good to see BD again, I won’t provoke & ask what he thought of Haggard on Larry King last night 8)

    Actually, Ted came off as the only reasonable one of the bunch…

  44. Nonnie says:

    Babs, so good to see you here again. You have been missed!

  45. BrianD says:

    Hello everyone.

  46. Please Note says:

    Hi Bri

  47. BrianD says:

    How are things PN?

  48. Please Note says:

    Not bad.

    How are things in your neck of the woods?

  49. BrianD says:

    Well, my allergies are alive and well 🙂

    We are fine. Derby is two weeks from today. I got back from our church’s annual mens retreat. I could only go today because of other commitments but it was good to be there despite the issues with the allergies.

    I am downloading the Larry King thing off iTunes now.

  50. Please Note says:

    By the way, BrianD, thanks again for all the work you do with the Linkathons.

    You really keep us abreast of what’s going on and, like it or not, we often get asked about the latest things in the Christian sphere.

    Thanks for the Linkathons, even if once in awhile we turm ’em into Stinathons 8)

  51. Rob Murphy says:

    Having seen evil and the incredibly destructive power of sin on my beloved ones this week, I am with Babylon’s Dread, again, and say that he has – again – spoken well.

    I may be going crazy, but it’s for completely different reasons.

    I have labeled “From Disgrace to Amazing Grace” THE must read book this year. I am deeply indebted to Michael for this recommendation and so thankful for how God used that book this week to bring Scripture to life and lift my heart into worship.

    On the most shallow note possible, I can’t believe what the Chargers did in the NFL draft.

    On an only nominally less shallow note, I am rooting for Urijah Faber to win tonight’s WEC championship fight. Jose Aldo seems like a nice guy, but I’m a fan of Urijah.
    I will be eating home made Tri Tip sandwiches tonight, turning off my brain for 2 hours and watching MMA. This is a Dave Rolph sanctioned activity.

    Praying for you all right now to have a great weekend of fellowship and worship and that God would shine His smile on you and you will see Him high and lifted up!

    Also – thank you for your prayers, beginning on Tues, I was able to sleep in a bed (recliner is not my happy place) and the Lord has given me great relief from my rotator cuff. I’m praying God will knit it back together without surgical tools. Thank you so much for your prayers!!

  52. Please Note says:

    Sorry ’bout the allergies. It has started affecting me too, as I get older.

    Men’s retreats are funny… they are usually either really, really good….or…really, really not 😉

    It will be interesting to get your take on the L King thing. To me, Ted H is the only one who came across well. I don’t want to turn this onto another H debate, but just on how they came across, JK & the other pastor did not come off well.

    In my humble, yet correct, opinion 😉

    (just kidding on that last one)

  53. Please Note says:

    Oops! Stinathons = Stinkathons

  54. BrianD says:

    PN I pray Jennifer finishes her race well. I don’t believe the church can talk someone out of homosexuality unless the Spirit is working. Especially in light of how anyone with a trace of homosexuality has usually been treated in the church.

    I recently got Andrew Marin’s book Love is an Orientation, in light of this revelation about Knapp and Michael Spencer’s recommendation of the book when it was released.

  55. London says:

    I’ve actually had that happen on more than one occassion (the cartoon) when I say I “go” to a home church.
    Dorks!

  56. BrianD says:

    Haggard is not on the iTunes excerpt. Why was Botsford there?

  57. Please Note says:

    Gotta run in a minute, but I’ll try to clarify…

    I didn’t see it from the start, or catch the intros, but from what I saw, it appeared Knapp was taking the ‘you sin, too’, approach; Bottsford did a disgraceful job at whatever it was he was trying to do, which was more in line with the traditional ‘hit ’em over the head with scripture & it will change them.”

    Whether that approach works or not, where he fell short was how disrespectful and dismissive he was of her. He talked about her as if she wasn’t there (they were sitting next to each other), and pretty much didn’t make any eye contact with her at all, but maybe once, briefly.

    Ted H did the best job of offering grace and saying that this was where she was on her journey, and that we should accept her and love her.

    The typical Leviticus/Seafood & Clothing things were thrown at Bottsford by King (who was a buffoon during this, asking questions & then interrupting the answers when he didn’t like what he heard), and Bottsford did a terrible job of explaining about how God revealed Himself and His path for us over time, but saying, stupidly, that “God changed his mind about shellfish”

    Dork.

    In a nutshell, that was kind of it. Though others may have seen it differently, or in it’s totality.

  58. Another Voice says:

    The typical Leviticus/Seafood & Clothing things were thrown at Bottsford by King
    ———————————————-
    Knapp also used these same verses in her big Christianity Today interview that was linked last week.

    This is SO common, as I mentioned yesterday in the interpretation thread.

    Describing progressive revelation in Scripture as God changing His mind is abominable.

  59. Another Voice says:

    This is what I wrote yesterday, and we see it acted out last night on TV.

    (Packer said)

    Each book had its place in the progress of God’s revelation of grace, which began in Eden and reached its climax in Jesus Christ, Pentecost, and the apostolic New Testament. That place must be borne in mind when studying the text.
    —————————————————————————————
    Huge point by Packer. Just look at how often someone runs to Leviticus to justify their sinful behavior in the face of Scripture’s clear teachings.

    Sometimes it is an accusation of noncompliance. (Well, do YOU avoid shellfish and clothing of mixed fibers?)

    Sometimes it is to mock the punishment. (Oh, so I assume you want to kill all homosexuals and disobedient children).

    Confusing the progressive nature of revelation (and dare I say it – the dispensations), leads to a lot of Biblical rejection by the world, and Biblical confusion as to application by some of the believers.

  60. BrianD says:

    PN, thanks.

    I’m disappointed that it wasn’t a helpful discussion on an important topic, but instead like a scene from an episode of The Surreal Life.

  61. Em says:

    BD,”…the predestination of every molecule in the universe nor does it necessitate that God planned every evil thing ever done in the world.

    Sovereignty does not require this viewpoint….”

    i am so glad that BD came out of his cave to make that point clear.

    IMO and my opinion only, i guess, God is quite able to counter every move that men or angels make circumvent His (predestined) plan and He does so one move at a time … well, a whole lot of moves simultaneously perhaps … don’t know that that position has a label … but it can’t be original with me 🙂

    and somehow prevailing prayers fit in there, too

  62. Em says:

    i must say also that watching Piper’s evident move into the wonder of our Holy, Sovereign God is a beautiful thing to see on that video(?) clip
    the greatest wonder of the cross and the realization at which my knees (figuratively, i guess) buckle is the staggering statement that Jesus Christ, Son of God and God incarnate became sin on that horrible day – praise God for His glorious victory

  63. Em says:

    God keep and praying for all a blessed Sunday

  64. jlo says:

    Michael, if you come out for Efest I’ll take you to my husband’s reflexologist, cured his Carpel Tunnel, much to my surprise.

  65. Erunner says:

    jlo, Are you a go for June 5th?? Check the E-fest thread.

  66. Augustine says:

    I love John Piper’s perspective.

  67. Nene says:

    Hi all, I’ve just gotta say it again… 🙂 I love you all!

    Having never understood what grace meant, it always left me baffled, so I pushed it aside. to learn later. You guys (and this thread) continue to teach by example what is God’s grace. My heart jumps jumps for joy the more, and more I understand.

    I was always taught “tulip” and never thought it was such a huge deal. It was more like learning concepts taught in a scholarly format,. I loved learning them, it made sense, and then we went to In N Out. 😉

    Rarely, (if ever) was I exposed to people who called themselves Calvinists. It was more of a history term in my mind. Now to my embarrassment, which churches are considered Calvinist? Please hear my heart, I just am a bit confused. There is so much I have been exposed to, yet it is difficult to make it clear in my head.

    Nonnie, if you are there…when I see you, I want to touch on this topic if we have time.. I hope I don ‘t forget…the burgers will be change the focus. 🙂

  68. Lutheran says:

    BrianD,

    I’ve read the Andrew Marin book. I highly recommend it, too.

  69. London says:

    “Too often Christians just “intersect” their lives when Jesus called us to intertwine them together. We come to church on Sunday, and those who bear his mane sit in pews next to each other, sing songs together, support the ministry together, and call themselves a “fellowship” when very little of that takes place. We are like cars at an intersection. We are polite, follow the rules–the guy on the right has the right of way etc. But that’s all the father it goes. We equate being “nice” with being loving like Jesus told us in John 13.

    But Jesus called us to much more than being nice and polite–he has Jesus called us to intertwine our lives together, That is how people will know you are my disciples”

    Hopkins….you’re scaring me. That was actually quite brilliant.

    Who wrote it? 😉

  70. Nonnie says:

    Nene, Yes, still looking forward to our Tommy’s burger-fest (that is as close as I can get to the E-fest) 🙂

    I am no theologian, and the subject of God’s sovereignty has never been a problem for me. I have found great peace and comfort in the fact that the Bible makes it clear that God is in control and He is working all things together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.(Ro. 8:28)

    I have also always loved knowing that “whosoever” believed on Jesus should not perish, but have eternal life. God is in control and to as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. (Jn.1:12)

    He can work it out however He wants to. I just count it such a privilege to be His child and tell others about my Heavenly Father and what Jesus has done for us. The “whosoevers” are out there in this hurting world and need to hear the good news and see it lived out in our lives, not Christians arguing and devouring one another.

  71. London
    Glad to be scaring you….brings me great joy 🙂

  72. David Sloane says:

    “THIS IS MARKETING and real issues, truth, and earnest folks are being manipulated to move some product.
    I need another grace shower.”

    Michael Sewell,

    If your the Michael Sewell who sings and once did a ‘One man play” then I have a few thoughts on your above statement.

    When you first showed up as a single man on the scene at CCCM I recollect some people who were real interested in the marketability of you and were not above trashing anyone who got in the way of that goal…I was one victim of that marketing machine at Calvary. They ganged up on me behind closed doors and called me a false prophet, a cloud without water etc, all just to protect you. It truly stumbled me big time, and for what?

    Ya, I needed a grace shower.

  73. Babylon's Dread says:

    The Pastor of Horizon Christian Fellowship, Bob Botsford was unprepared for his time on Larry King with Jennifer Knapp… Botsford got his head handed to him… but he says God changed his mind about shellfish consumption… It was also interesting that Larry King suggested that God created homosexuality… interesting….

    Ted Haggard, my good friend tried to be a peacemaker … He would not answer the question of whether homosexuality is sin… and he probably should not be the one to press that matter. Ted is a good peacemaker….but he is not a very good spokesman on this matter.

    The program was frustrating and really did not clarify anything… it really further muddied the waters.

  74. Michael says:

    BD,

    She cleaned the floor with Botsford…

  75. Is there any way for a Christian to come out of that battle unscathed? Looking good? I don’t think we can tight ripe walk the scriptures, but to loving stand in support of them on this issues leaves us open and vulnerable and looking pretty ugly. Is there any one who wouldn’t have been used to mop the floor?

    This issue will begin to make us hated even more by the world. It’s gonna get ugly

  76. Em says:

    it seems to me that caring Christians are distracted by people such as Larry’s crew and the Jennifers that feed them so well…
    Why are we willing to debate each sin? homosexuality is one of those canaries in the coal mine. why can’t we just say “that’s sinful?” Period! Standing around debating with fools (justifying sin is foolish) whether those are dead canaries is a waste of time, when the real concern is what’s killing them?
    Don’t we need to address the downward God-denying spiral of our age? The above issue is a flagrant indicator. Isn’t the depravity of man on the rise the issue? ‘course that won’t play on Larry King’s show…
    dunno – just sayin – again 🙄

  77. Em says:

    yeah, what Steve said 🙂

  78. Michael says:

    It will get ugly, but we have to at least be prepared to give thoughtful, accurate, scriptural responses.

    That didn’t happen…”God changed His mind about shellfish” … wow…

  79. Em says:

    somebody Emailed me a copy of a directive from the brass to Christian chaplins in the military – something about not being dogmatic about the Faith…

    we’re being escorted ever so gently out the door…

  80. Em says:

    i know nothing about Botsford, but i suspect that the show knew exactly what they were getting and the man (who may love the Lord with all his heart) was exactly what they wanted – sounds like unprepared may be a sin, too… we can at least pray more for those who are our spokespersons

  81. Xenia says:

    I didn’t see this interview, but before I would claim that the Christian pastor “lost,” I would consider that he at least told the truth about homosexuality (from the sound of it), even if his behavior appeared foolish. God uses Fools-For-Christ and his Word will not return void. Someone who is glorying in her sin did not “win” even if she was charming and sounded oh-so-reasonable. She is rebelling against God and those who have eyes to see and ears to hear in the audience will have heard what God wanted them to see and hear. And if TH never said homosexuality was a sin, then he needs to stay off these programs until he isn’t afraid of the Larrry Kings of the world.

    Truth is truth, lies are lies, no matter how charming.

    I think Christians should stay off these secular programs unless they go on in the spirit of Isaiah and John the Baptist. They may look foolish but God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the so-called wise. If you’re going to go on one of these programs you need to decide beforehand and make a pact with God that you will tell the truth and not waffle. The early Christian martyrs would look a Roman emperor in the face and tell him he was going to hell unless he converted. You don’t see a whole lot of that today, especially on secular TV when you have the chance to “look good” before celebrities and TV-land.

    You can tell the truth in love. It doesn’t have to be sarcastic or smart-alecky but it needs to be the truth.

  82. Eddie says:

    Perhaps I am simpleminded, but it seems to me that God could easily allow for freedom within certain bounds without in anyway surrendering His sovereignty over all of Creation.

    Oden said: “Where did you get that picture of our church (the little one on the bottom)?”

    To quote a favorite song, “We are few but we are strong when You surround us.”

  83. BrianD says:

    Maybe Botsford should not have gone on, but Larry King’s people probably would have found someone just like him (or worse).

    Why go on national television and comment on something you’ve only read about and with a person you may have met once? Did God tell him to go? Why go on at all if not?

    I wonder how that show would have gone if Joe Dallas was in Botsford’s spot.

    We may be headed for persecution (as so many in the church seem to believe and some seem to dream about), but a lot of what passes for the church deserves to be hauled to the junkyard.

    Thus endeth my cynical, jaded Editorial For The Day….

  84. Michael

    “It will get ugly, but we have to at least be prepared to give thoughtful, accurate, scriptural responses.”

    Agreed

  85. BrianD is probably right. Botsford was a prop for Larry’s progtram. Had it not been him they would have found some other stooge.. Ratings…it’s all about ratings

    X is right too. We’ve gotta quit playing the game

  86. centorian says:

    Did Knapp really use Botsford to mop up the floor? I really find that a bit hard to believe. I’ll have to look and see if I can see the interview myself. My understanding is that Botsford is educated, but no doubt as the new poster girl for the homosexual agenda, Knapp has probably been well coached.

    I love the shellfish and mixed material arguments. Jesus’ fulfillment of the law gives me the freedom to eat lobster, shave the sides of my head and get tattoos, but it was never intended for me to live an immoral lifestyle of which the New Testament clearly defines.

  87. centorian says:

    wait a minute… changed his mind about shellfish? how?

  88. Michael says:

    That was the explanation given for the Leviticus passages…

  89. centorian says:

    well how did Botford change his mind? That’s what he said concerning the Torah??

  90. Michael says:

    Thus, my “wiped the floor” remark…I sat here with my mouth open…

  91. Erunner says:

    I thought Botsford was out of his element on national television and may not have been prepared for Jennifer’s comments and Larry’s obvious bias. He was in a no win situation but the Adam and Steve comment and the shell fish comment I imagine he would like to take back.

    I was less impressed with Ted Haggard as he dodged questions and seemed to come against Botsford while saying nothing that might have upset Larry or Jennifer. I kept thinking “where is Johnny Mac?”

  92. Michael says:

    Erunner,

    Excellent points.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that Haggard is all about Haggard and his relentless self promotion is more than I can handle.

  93. centorian says:

    Johnny Mac lol!!! he would’ve kicked a$$ and taken names!!!

    Do you think that Botsford’s shellfish remark was coming from the not eating to offend angle? I still don’t get it..

    1Cr 8:13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

  94. Erunner says:

    Michael, For much of the world the homosexual conversation is over. The idea that anyone would call it sin is now extreme and should not be uttered. Finding people who are religious who agree with them only props up their thinking while at the same time many who believe it is sin are now not willing to say so.

    We serve an unchanging God whose word is also unchanging. That doesn’t fly in an anything goes society.

    How long until we’ll be like the republicans as we open the tent to include Mormon’s and other non Christian groups into the body of Christ? We need to be loving while at the same time uncompromising. Seems some have given up on that idea….

  95. centorian says:

    E,
    great point……
    “How long until we’ll be like the republicans as we open the tent to include Mormon’s and other non Christian groups into the body of Christ? We need to be loving while at the same time uncompromising. Seems some have given up on that idea….”

    and now to piss a few of you off… this is exactly my heartburn with Warren’s PEACE plan…

  96. Michael says:

    Centy,

    She asked him point blank about the passage in Leviticus and his response was “God changed his mind about shellfish” and went off on a tangent about Cornelius.

    “¶ “These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat.
    But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.
    You shall regard them as detestable; you shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses.
    Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is detestable to you.”
    (Leviticus 11:9–12 ESV)

  97. Michael says:

    From the transcript:

    KING: You paint the picture. Your — in the Old Testament — I’m not a Biblical scholar — you can’t eat shellfish. Do you eat shellfish?

    BOTSFORD: Absolutely.

    KING: You’re a sinner.

    BOTSFORD: No I’m not. There are some things, Larry, that are very important to keep in context here. Although there are verses in the Book of Leviticus that say don’t eat shellfish, don’t wear clothes that have different materials on it, things that Jennifer has mentioned in the article that she has given in the news coming out — you know what, God changed his mind on shellfish.

    KING: When did he do that?

    BOTSFORD: There is a wonderful passage —

    LYNN: God changed his mind on mankind. And he gave his savior for one and for all. BOTSFORD: He changed his mind, if I can finish, in Acts Chapter 10, to answer your question, Larry, on shellfish. And Cornelius has this amazing enlightenment, as Peter has this vision of the lord saying eat whatever you want.

    KING: Peter may have been hungry. No pun intended.

    BOTSFORD: There is this grace that comes upon all of us no longer to live by the law of the Old Testament. But when you get to the issue of homosexuality, he doesn’t change his mind on that. It flows over into the New Testament as powerfully as it was in the Old Testament.

  98. Erunner says:

    Botsford reminded me of a real smart person who goes on Jeopardy and then their brain freezes up. I think someone like Johnny Mac would have done a much better job but it was what it was.

    It seems the reliability of Scripture is up for debate as people now think you can look at scriptures and come to various conclusions. Usually folks will point to the number of denominations and the difference on non essentials that exist.

    I wonder how Paul would have fared in the 21st century???

  99. brian says:

    my apologies for my last post it is not edifying and childish, I would ask if someone could kindly remove it, it was rude and I hate being rude it bothered me all day. Thanks

  100. Michael says:

    Johnny Mac would have blasted Haggard far more than Knapp…

  101. Erunner says:

    Thanks for the transcript Michael.

  102. Erunner says:

    Whenever Johnny Mac has been on Larry King he has done well and has represented the faith in an excellent way. He may have corrected Jennifer as she did bring up a few Greek words to defend her position. Hopefully that’s on the transcript!

  103. centorian says:

    God changed His mind???….hmmm. I don’t think Botsford believes that, and if so, perhaps and additional look is warrented. It sounds like he was pandering to the world when he should have just stood up and proclaimed the truth.

    2Cr 2:16 To the one [we are] the aroma of death [leading] to death, and to the other the aroma of life [leading] to life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

    thanks for the transcript…

  104. centorian says:

    after reading the transcript it appears to me that Larry King is using Knapp and the homosexual issue to try and discredit evangelical Christianity. It’s apparent that he has an agenda…

  105. Michael says:

    King is a reprobate…he is unable to understand the things of God and they are foolishness to him.

    I’ve listened to him for almost forty years…the story has never changed.

  106. Xenia says:

    I think the “God changed his mind” thing should be forgiven him. If he have been allowed to finish a sentence, it would have come out all right, I think. How can he be expected to explain the transition from the Old to New Covenant, with all its nuances, with Larry sitting there in his suspenders, grinning like a crocodile and saying “You’re a sinner!”

  107. Another Voice says:

    I’m late to the party here…my thought about her argument on the ‘debate’ over the Greek word, for which Knapp admitted she had no understanding…

    ME: So you do believe the Bible is the authority for your life, if interpreted correctly? (Say, It’s a yes or no question, if she dissembles)

    ME: If ‘No’ then ask her why she is bringing up the proper interpretation of the Bible. Why mock what you don’t believe?

    If ‘Yes’ then ask pointblank if she will renounce lesbianism if I arrange for three NT Greek scholars to show her off air what the text properly says.

    These would be quick points that you could get out before King tries to save the day, and my goal would be for the defense of the Scripture, not as a ‘gotcha’ for Knapp. It would show the problem is not with the Bible, it is with one’s acceptance of it as an authority.

  108. Lutheran says:

    Xenia,

    LOL.

  109. Erunner said
    “Michael, For much of the world the homosexual conversation is over. The idea that anyone would call it sin is now extreme and should not be uttered. ”

    That is true. Today it is not considered a sin for a man to sleep with a men or a woman to marry a woman. But if you drive a Hummer, or damage the earth in any way that is considered sin!

    Amazing how the world view changes when the focus is placed on the individual and not God…We must, in our thinking, let God be God!

  110. Xenia says:

    Larry King deliberately sets up questions to make Christians look like fools, but that’s ok because God uses the foolish things of this world to accomplish His purposes. After four decades of attempting to trap his Christian guests he most certainly knows the answer to the shellfish question but his darkened mind cannot understand it.

    Some Christian guests are dazzled by the lights and celebrity and blurt out things that dishonor the Lord. They didn’t intend to but they are so married to the world that under the stress of the situation they say the wrong thing because they want to make
    Christianity look “good” (the world’s view of goodness) rather than present the truth which will make the audience boo and the celeb host smirk.

    But Larry’s just a TV host. If we can’t stand up to him, how will we stand when worse things come? If we can’t even run with the footmen, how can we run with the horses?

    So…. having not seen the spectacle under discussion, I would say the pastor was victorious, no matter how mumble-mouthed, if he told the truth. He sounds like someone who might prefer being thrown to the lions rather than offering a pinch of incense to Caesar. TH needs a little more work, preferably somewhere off-stage.

  111. Em says:

    Xenia,amening your comments here on this subject of defending the Faith – we do need to study and be ready for those who ask about our Faith – but we also have to be willing to be fools in this world’s view – King and Knapp are the world’s court jesters – they don’t know it, but they are – praying for honest boldness, no matter how foolish i feel or look – course a little Spirit controlled discernment thrown into the request is good, eh?

  112. Believe says:

    Chiming in on the Jennifer Knapp, Larry King, Botsford episode…

    We need to be prepared to give a better answer than Botsford did.

    Meet the Elephant in the Room head-on.

    “Larry, I’m not going to argue with you…the Bible clearly states that the act of homosexuality is sin…just as fornication, stealing, lying, cheating, drunkenness, gluttony and many other issues are sin. You being Jewish understand the Law.

    Can Jennifer be attracted to the same sex…have a homosexual desire…be a homosexual…and be a Christian? Sure she can. I struggle with gluttony…I eat too much food all the time…more than I need to. I also lie by giving false impressions as a pastor…I embellish…which is a form of lying…often to make a point. I also struggle with pride. Often, I get prideful being the pastor of a large church…and pride wells up when I’m invited to speak on your show. I sin…and I’m a Christian. The critical issue is this, I believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah and I recognize my sin as sin.

    Jennifer, it seems, is trying to say that practicing the homosexual sexual act…acting out her homosexual inclination…is not sin. The Bible stands in opposition to that statement…if that is in fact what she’s saying.

    My advice to Jennifer is to recognize that the physical homosexual act is sin…and I encourage her to abstain from it. If she falls…she should repent and try again. If she falls again…repent and try again…just as I do with the sins I struggle with.

    If I were having sex with someone as a heterosexual…who was not my wife…I could justify my actions all day long…that I am naturally attracted to women…women who aren’t my wife. That would still put me in opposition to what the Bible says about adultery.”

    When a guy like Botsford enters into a “God changed His mind”…”shellfish / clothing” argument…he’s not doing anyone any good.

    I wish TH would be more clear about his view of the homosexual act as sin or not sin…while stil trying to make peace with regards to a politically sensitive issue.

    I believe you can tell the truth about the homosexual act, while still reaching out to homosexuals and meeting them as equals…as humans who also struggle with lots of sin in our own lives…not putting them in a “special sin category” that makes them feel like more of a sinner than the rest of us…all while telling them the truth and encouraging them to call the act sin…and to try and not do it…and to pray to God to help them with their sin…just like the rest of us do with our sins.

    Running from the issue…or explaining it as poorly as Botsford did…is not effective, IMO or responsible, IMO.

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