Own It… And Let It Go: Duane W.H. Arnold, PhD

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165 Responses

  1. Linn says:

    It took us 30 years to talk about the wrong done to Japanese citizens in the US during WW2 (I was horrified when I realize that had been the experience of the very nice Japanese neighbors for whom I babysat) and almost 100 years to deal with the segregation in the South. I hope that it won’t take so long this time, but I think repentance, putting it behind us, and letting it go are good words. But I think churches also need to begin to focus on the truth, even if it means debunking the latest conspiracy theories.

  2. Duane Arnold says:

    Linn

    By owning it, I am meaning that we need to admit the awful truth of this moment…

  3. Xenia says:

    Good article, Duane, and good advice, too. It’s like I said a few days ago, some of these people are our dear aunts and uncles, cousins and neighbors, people who bring us pie and soup when we’re sick and knit baby blankets for our children. Our kids’ Sunday School teachers, our god parents…. good people who somehow bought a lie. This should scare everyone because the Scripture says the anti-Christ is going to be so convincing that he will almost fool the Elect. Trump is not anti-Christ, but look how easily he fooled so many god-fearing, Bible-believing Christians. It will happen again some day, and this time it will be for real and if we have become habituated into believe bizarre stories such as Trump et al have propagated, will we be able to resist when the real thing comes upon us? Cosmically speaking, Trump is a nobody yet he fooled millions.

    All to say, it is not spiritually profitable to spend one’s mental and spiritual efforts on the things of the world, which is exactly what the Trumpists are doing. On your death bed you’re not going to say you wish you had spent more time promoting Trump.

    The two issues that caused us at our house to vote for Trump were abortion and homosexuality. I still care about those things but the fact is, even if these things are legal, we don’t have to participate in them and we can work against them, using the tools God has give us, which do not include rioting or turning your church into a branch of the Republican party. The first big step for most people is to discourage Hollywood and most aspects of modern culture, which are Satan’s propaganda machine.

    So Trump is losing all his stuff, looks like. There’s the temptation to gloat but I think it’s more Christlike to sorrow that such a wreck of a man has come to such a miserable end. It’s hard to have compassion on Trump but oddly enough, I do feel bad for him.

    Anyway, great article, Duane!

  4. Em says:

    I recall a discussion on “Jesus saves” years ago in a Bible Study Fellowship class. Most felt that it prompted unbelievers to ask, “just what does he save? Green stamps?”. Merchants used to give those stamps which could be accumulated and redeemed for various items of value – furniture included.
    how about, Let Jesus save YOUR soul?
    But i cannot be as hard on Evangelicals…. Organizations sprung up in the second half of th 20th century that felt churches were too insular … These organizations tried Madison Avenue advertising techniques to draw people to consider our Faith. So?
    So, the root of the problem well may lie within the churches themselves? Sell a here and now, material payoff to get those butts in te pews? SAD!
    We need teachers

  5. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    Many thanks…

  6. Xenia says:

    We need teachers<<<

    Not if they are going to keep teaching the same old "It doesn't matter what you do because you accepted the Lord when you were six years old and you got your ticket to heaven so don't worry about legalistic ideas like holiness."

  7. Duane Arnold says:

    Em

    We need more than teachers. We people who will speak, and believe, the truth.

  8. Xenia says:

    I think we have too many teachers. We need more learners.

  9. Xenia says:

    I don’t need to be taught much more these days, after many decades of listening to teachings. By now, I know what I am supposed to be doing. I could use a few good examples, though.

  10. Em says:

    Japanese internment camps in WW2? What isn’t understood is the dire situation we were in after Pearl Harbor. While my grandmother mourned the loss of her good and decent produce man, her daughter, who lived in an agricultural area outside L.A., told of watching the Japanese out at night lying in the fields with flashlights. They formed an arrow that pointed to the location of a defense plant on the outskirts of L.A. My uncle whose job made him ineligible to enlist (aeronautical engineer) flew civil air patrol flights patrolling our Pacific coast. I suspect they went a long way to keeping Japanese flights from getting through.
    The simple and overlooked fact was that, after Pearl Harbor, caught with our pants down, we were in survival mode and we were not able to sort just which Japanese American was working for the Emperor. ..
    Yes, we had bad Germans too, but they were a little easier to find as they were so comingled with the rest of us. A nice German restaurant in the foothills north of a Lockheed plant was found to have a shortwave radio set up in back in order to allow the Nazi sympathizers to get information to German infiltrators.
    Even today i realize from having been there that the history we are taught can be very superficial…. even history less than 100 years passed.
    God keeo

  11. Kevin H says:

    Duane,

    Thank you for writing this. While many in the Church, especially the American Evangelical Church, would vociferously disagree with your pronouncement of sin and wrongdoing and call for repentance, it is a much needed message that needs to be spoken at this point. This calamity has been going on for too long now and has continued to only worsen for these past 5 years. The rest of the Church cannot just sit idly by while a significant segment of its body falls deeper and deeper into idolatry that is hurting themselves, hurting others, and the witness of Christ.

    Xenia – Just a little earlier today I had written on Facebook how a wide swath of the Church has been deceived by an anti-christ-like figure and are following after him in a cult-like fashion. It is scary.

  12. Linn says:

    Em,
    I wonder how many of the people who were present were actually believers. It’s kind of like “I’m a Christian cuz I’m ‘Merican.” So many people (that would be most of my family) think they are Christians because they go to a church, but they have no idea of what the gospel really is. i was raised in that environment, and really freaked my parents out when I made a serious commitment to Christ in my mid-teens. It was, “You really don’t believe that stuff, do you? Just go to church and be normal like the rest of us.’ The rest of us in my family is a very sorry group of multi-married, substance abusers, some in jail people. But, they all voted for Trump because they are Christian ‘Mericans. I love them, but I don’t agree with them.

  13. Em says:

    Yes, Xenia, a teacher CAN teach lies, too. Let me rephrase that, we need more God fearing, Spirit taught, Eternal truth serving teachers… 🙆

  14. Duane Arnold says:

    Em

    The Japanese internments are recognized as a dark chapter in our history. There are no excuses, as the US government itself acknowledged. It was racism born of fear.

  15. Duane Arnold says:

    Kevin H

    Many thanks, and I agree with you… the time is now.

  16. Nathan Priddis says:

    Jesus totally saves.
    The Electoral Ballots got saved.

  17. Duane Arnold says:

    Nathan

    Thanks to some courageous junior staffers…

  18. Em says:

    Internment camps were a necessary evil – a dark blot? I don’t think so – i was there. 😇

    Linn, i recall the evening i made my commitment to Christ. When i came home and announced my new birth my grandfather came out beaming ready to dialogue with me. I rebuffed him as i still believed my mother’s assertion that her father’s faith had ruined her life. She said, “That’s nice, dear. But you must not become a fanatic. I promised your late father that i would never let you become a fanatic!”
    I have become a “fanatic” and will apologize to my dear grandfather in Eternity. I will regret that rebuff all my life here.

    Praying this good discussion of what ails the churches today continues to a constructive one. .

  19. Bride of Christ says:

    Churches who have promoted Christian Nationalism have, in fact, “weapon-ized” the gospel to advance their own political agenda. That’s shameful, and it brings shame upon all Christians. This is a sad day for American Christianity. Maybe we should just start calling these nationalistic, political idol worshipping churches what they really are – cults that are no different than QAnon.

  20. Duane Arnold says:

    Em

    Anecdotes do not change history.

  21. Duane Arnold says:

    B of C

    I have struggled with what to call them for five years. It has become increasingly difficult to call them “church”. Still struggling…

  22. bob1 says:

    I have to agree with one of Xenia’s comments (10:41) — gotta wonder how much influence Protestant “cheap grace” theology has contributed to the current crisis. Can turn Xnity into
    a visit to the circus, complete with cotton candy and sweets.

    “Jesus is Lord” means nothing else is.

  23. Em says:

    Dr. Duane, anecdotes ARE history. 😉

  24. Xenia says:

    As one who often post anecdotes here, even I realize they are not, strictly speaking, “history.” My anecdote is one very small view of an historical event and needs to be weighed against other anecdotes, archeology, historical records, diaries, and whatever media (newspapers, books) from that time people, that is, contemporary reporting.

    So my anecdotes are certainly a part of my personal history, but they would need to be added to all the other pieces of evidence to give a clear picture of what actually happened. If my story is very different from all the other evidence, then I have to say to myself “I had a unique experience, looks like.”

    For example, I live in a town where Blacks and Hispanics rule the roost and are doing a pretty good job, too. But if I looked at my town and extrapolated it out to the whole country to say Blacks and Hispanics are being treated fairly everywhere, that would be a mistake.

  25. Xenia says:

    What a mess of typos. Sheesh….

  26. Duane Arnold says:

    From the National Archives:
    “In 1988, Congress passed, and President Reagan signed, Public Law 100-383 that acknowledged the injustice of internment, apologized for it, and provided a $20,000 cash payment to each person who was interned.

    One of the most stunning ironies in this episode of American civil liberties was articulated by an internee who, when told that the Japanese were put in those camps for their own protection, countered “If we were put there for our protection, why were the guns at the guard towers pointed inward, instead of outward?”

    …And if we want anecdotes, I have two friends who spent their childhood in the camps. It scarred them for life.

    I think we can stop this discussion of the camps here.

  27. Jean says:

    I found this contribution from Xenia to be profound:

    “Trump is not anti-Christ, but look how easily he fooled so many god-fearing, Bible-believing Christians. It will happen again some day, and this time it will be for real and if we have become habituated into believe bizarre stories such as Trump et al have propagated, will we be able to resist when the real thing comes upon us? Cosmically speaking, Trump is a nobody yet he fooled millions.“

  28. Jean says:

    “What isn’t understood is the dire situation we were in after Pearl Harbor.”

    For the record, no doubt Pearl Harbor was a terrible attack, but it did not represent a “dire situation” for America. At no point was America at risk of invasion or occupation.

  29. Em says:

    Internment camps discussion over? That’s okay with me…
    There is much left unsaid – better left unsaid….
    Politics and prejudice don’t debate well….

  30. Em says:

    Jean, i was 5 1/2 years old Dec 7th and 9 when we brought the aggressor s to their knees… If you don’t know what we faced at that time, i am sorry – yes, it awakened a sleeping giant, but it was a scramble to turn all our resources – we did – into a war machine…. Our post war relations with them is a proud testament to our, then, nation’s approach to the private citizens of those formerly hostile nations.
    My apologies, Dr. Duane… I’m done … Now. 🙏

  31. Duane Arnold says:

    Em

    No problem, let’s end the camps discussion…

  32. MM says:

    Here’s what needs to be owned;

    A very simple review of this website’s articles and “discussions” over the past months demonstrates this is no longer a site promoting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Rather it has become just another politically motivated and division creating place.

    The original work of this site was defending the outcast and abused from Calvary Chapel and its failed government structure. It has clearly morphed into something far from those roots and reflects the greater divisions, personal prejudices and religious sects which exist today in these United States. It has become the very thing it sought to eliminate.

    Yes you do own it.

  33. Duane Arnold says:

    I have no need to defend either Michael or the Phoenix Preacher. Its work over the last two decades speaks for itself… and will continue to speak.

  34. Muff Potter says:

    I fear for my Country.
    The Huns and the Visigoths (to use a metaphor) are at her gates even now.

  35. Xenia says:

    Muff, the name Attila” is Gothic for “little father.”

    Unrelated to anything, just interesting.

  36. bob1 says:

    MM, Your comments ring hollow. They carry no weight.

    Besides being extremely rude and untrue.

    You were one of the biggest instigators on here.

    Go look in the mirror.

  37. bob1 says:

    Speaking of teachers: seems to me that schools (if they don’t do this already) need to teach a basic, nonpartisan civic course or 3.. Maybe from early on!

  38. MM says:

    Bob1

    I have seen little if any mercy here from most of the poster, you included. If this site is what being a follower of Jesus is then it’s no wonder most people aren’t interested.

    I have only clearly “instigated “ fairness to the issues and pointed out the clear prejudice and division creating outburst by you and many others. It really is that simple.

    Duane,

    Yes as I pointed out and now you confirm, there is no need to defend PP at all the direction you in particular have taken this ministry and website is quite clear. Defending the abused and weak is clearly no longer the agenda here, nor is the defense of the love for Jesus Christ.

    This has become the very thing it originally was opposed to.

  39. Duane Arnold says:

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even if ill-informed…

  40. Linn says:

    MM
    This is one of the few Christian blogs where people have real discussions vs “flaming” alternated with stone throwing. I have appreciated a safe internet space. Many different views are represented, a lot is said and agreed/disagreed on, but the moderators do a good job of keeping order. My only complaint (and this is only for me), I am always being a bit late to the party on my own comments because , as a teacher, I can’t be commenting on a blog when I expect them to pay attention in class. So, I catch up on a break…but much has happened by then. And, it’s almost time to open the 3 pm study hall!

  41. Linn says:

    Bob1-
    Schools do (it’s part of the ed code in most states), but it is often the most boring class you could ever imagine. It shouldn’t be, but there is just no imagination applied to it. I think part of the problem is that, at least in public schools, there are so many different sides to satisfy that it’s better to dispense pablum without controversy. I would give my school an excellent grade in civics classes, but we’re a private college prep kind of place, so it’s expected (and even then parents complain that we are “partisan.”)

  42. arthur says:

    Duane, your easy, dismissive responses are becoming predictable. We are entitled to our own i;;-informed opinions. For someone who represents himself as a thinker, you can do much better.

  43. Duane Arnold says:

    Arthur

    I would never wish to be predictable… but some comments, by their nature and intent, are worthy of dismissal.

  44. Duane Arnold says:

    Linn

    Always love your narratives… and understand the schedule!

  45. Michael says:

    MM,

    No one takes this site anywhere I don’t want it to go.
    We will still stand for those on the margins and speak truth to power…and if I fail, you can start your own site and take the risks and hits I have for twenty years.
    Until you stand with your name and address on a site, spare me your opinions on how I run mine.

  46. Em says:

    Michael, 👍 👍

  47. MM says:

    Thank you for reminding us of your 20 years and how you are in the top 100 web sites. We all have a story and opinions, don’t we.

    Is it no surprise or at least a bit of wonder to you why the number of posters has dwindled down over the past couple of years?

    Oh well, welcome to Calvary Chapel.

    I leave it to you and yours.

  48. Dread says:

    The determination of the left to advantage this moment is going to have devastating outcomes. Your word to the right to own this is well said. But to the left I would say what I do often say in marital conflict; DE-ESCALATE CONFLICT a horrific divorce is building.

  49. bob1 says:

    Linn,

    Appreciate your comments about civics in school. You obviously speak from experience!

    Sounds like they need to “jazz it up” to make it more interesting. It’s so important, especially right now. Whatever it takes.

    When in Rome…

    Thanks again!

  50. Jean says:

    “But to the left I would say what I do often say in marital conflict; DE-ESCALATE CONFLICT a horrific divorce is building.”

    Dread,

    Who is the left? Is it the Joint Chiefs of Staff who described the capital riot as sedition and insurrection? Is it the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach Trump? Is it the Democratic Party? Is it anyone who wants Trump out of office, to never hold elected office again and who would like him held accountable for his actions?

    How do you suggest the left de-escalate the conflict? Should the Capital riot be swept under the rug? Should law and order be suspended for aggrieved Trump followers? Would a wholesale pardon make the grievances go away or embolden for forces of chaos and violence?

    There are still many Republicans in Congress who haven’t publicly admitted the legitimacy of Biden’s election. Trump certainly hasn’t. How should the left de-escalate in an atmosphere in which the election is still contested in the minds of national leaders?

    Please be concrete in your suggestions.

  51. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    I understand your concerns with Right and Left. My concern is not so much about politics, but rather how we view and react to what has taken place with much of American evangelicalism. The Q Anon cult goes beyond anything considered normative politics. The propensity toward violence, conspiracies and prophetic pronouncements among many evangelicals is, I believe, a crisis of faith and belief within the American church. We may be watching something far more significant concerning the expression of Christian faith in America than we fully appreciate and/or know how to deal with at present.

  52. Dread says:

    Jean,

    You aptly show the futility of my plea.

    Duane,

    I think we may be witnessing the radicalization of many for both religious and secular religious motives. We do well to denounce all the violence as not salutary. We also do well to note that language is almost stretched beyond capacity at this hour. We have seen what the mob does on both ends.

    We might start with renouncing violence and with renouncing the refusal to see evidence as persuasive.

  53. LInn says:

    Bob1,

    There’s plenty of great ideas available (just read the newspaper or a website) to talk about in civics, but parents complain if they think you are too one-sided, conservative, liberal, middle of the road…Principals don’t like dealing with difficult parents, so they usually take the easy way and say “teach to the text.” I feel for them.Immigration comes up a lot in my Spanish classes, and the first question is why do they come. I treat that question carefully. I have a huge heart for the undocumented because I have worked with them in schools, churches and communities since the early 80s-but not everyone feels that way. I stick to the facts, and talk to kids individually when they have really burning questions. I think our society as “dumbed down” our level of knowledge so much that we no longer have room for nuance.

  54. Duane Arnold says:

    Dread

    “We might start with renouncing violence and with renouncing the refusal to see evidence as persuasive.”

    Agreed. I think the problem is that most of those we are talking about operate on the basis of “belief” rather than facts or evidence. For some, it seems to be a short step from religious belief (the Bible, miracles, etc.) to belief in Q Anon, or a “rigged election”, or “prophecies” of a second term. The basis of belief is different, but the structure of their belief is very similar if not the same…

  55. bob1 says:

    Thanks, Linn! I’m glad you have such a passionate heart for immigrants.

  56. bob1 says:

    There’s a tremendously important piece by Timothy Snyder, Yale history prof and considered the world’s leading authority on fascism and authoritarianism.

    Here are some quotes:

    “Post-truth is pre-fascism, and Trump has been our post-truth president. When we give up on truth, we concede power to those with the wealth and charisma to create spectacle in its place.

    Without agreement about some basic facts, citizens cannot form the civil society that would allow them to defend themselves. If we lose the institutions that produce facts that are pertinent to us, then we tend to wallow in attractive abstractions and fictions.”

    “Like historical fascist leaders, Trump has presented himself as the single source of truth. His use of the term “fake news” echoed the Nazi smear Lügenpresse (“lying press”); like the Nazis, he referred to reporters as “enemies of the people.”

    Like Adolf Hitler, he came to power at a moment when the conventional press had taken a beating; the financial crisis of 2008 did to American newspapers what the Great Depression did to German ones. The Nazis thought that they could use radio to replace the old pluralism of the newspaper; Trump tried to do the same with Twitter.”

    “In November 2020, reaching millions of lonely minds through social media, Trump told a lie that was dangerously ambitious: that he had won an election that in fact he had lost. This lie was big in every pertinent respect: not as big as “Jews run the world,” but big enough.

    “The lie outlasts the liar. The idea that Germany lost the First World War in 1918 because of a Jewish “stab in the back” was 15 years old when Hitler came to power. How will Trump’s myth of victimhood function in American life 15 years from now? And to whose benefit?

    America will not survive the big lie just because a liar is separated from power. It will need a thoughtful repluralization of media and a commitment to facts as a public good.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/magazine/trump-coup.html?searchResultPosition=8

  57. Em says:

    “The lie outlasts the liar….”. More than we know, more than we see. … It does indeed

  58. Mike E. says:

    MM..if you’re still here…you said, “Defending the abused and weak is clearly no longer the agenda here, nor is the defense of the love for Jesus Christ.
    This has become the very thing it originally was opposed to.”

    Respectfully, you’re sadly mistaken. The abused and the marginalized and the weak among us, (I include myself in that category) have been devoured by an abuser far darker than Mr. Trump himself. A very powerful, deluding principality who has wreaked havoc among the weak and marginalized. I’d say many of Q ANON cult believers who stormed the capitol are among the devoured.

    Please stop making horrible accusations against Michael and Duane and the blog. Michael has always faithfully executed this ministry toward that end of protecting the sheep. Please remember who is “the accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God day and night.”

    Please consider repentance and restoration of relationship and fellowship with the brothers and sisters here. I had to. BD did. Xenia did. Many have. Michael is not your enemy. Duane is not your enemy. I am not your enemy. We all have but one enemy, as it is written.

  59. Mike E. says:

    Dread: not sure I understand where you’re coming from. You recently posted a post in which you urged Trumpists to repent. However, it seems now you’re returning right back to the old form. Arguing left/right. NOT accusing. Asking.
    I agree both sides have been violent and intolerant. I would however say I completely agree with you. Violence MUST be repudiated, by EVERYONE. I would include violent attitudes and speech.

    ***Lord, I humbly confess I have sinned against you with violent speech and attitudes. I renounce all of that right now and pray for your Spirit to conform me to the image of your Son, who did no violence. Have mercy on me, my High Priest, and show mercy to us all. Amen.

  60. Jean says:

    Dread,

    “We might start with renouncing violence and with renouncing the refusal to see evidence as persuasive.”

    There are an abundance of people, myself included, willing to see evidence and be persuaded by it. Is there evidence in your possession or in the possession of any court of law, that you feel was not seen as persuasive by the courts? You also understand, I assume, that Georgia and Arizona are governed by conservative Republicans. You also understand that down ballot Republicans outperformed Trump in (I believe) all the swing states that Trump lost.

    I think the issue I have, and I believe Duane and Michael also, is that there was no evidence of systemic or widespread fraud or any conspiracy to falsify the election. No evidence was found that, if substantiated, would have changed the election outcome in any State.

    There were accusations. Some repeated thousands of time, by thousands of accounts; some repeated by national figures and many repeated on social media and “news” networks. But the repetition of an accusation, no matter how many times, does not transform the accusation into something we would consider to be evidence or truth.

    I’m sorry that many believed lies. I do not want to rub it in anyone’s nose. But these lies caused a violent rebellion and really should not be ignored or coddled. They must be confronted out of love for the neighbor. Would leaving someone in gross error be a loving thing to do?

  61. Dread says:

    Mike E

    I think I just appealed for de-escalation. It seemed that Jean sought to draw me into re-escalation here. I did not take the bait.

    I asked for an agreement that violence be renounced as a means of advance.

    Wherein did I confuse? I remain a conservative and a charismatic despite my errant fellows in both regards.

  62. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    In a court, evidence is required. In the public square, it appears that “belief” has overtaken facts in the hearts and minds of many…

  63. Jean says:

    Dread,

    I’m not trying to draw you into re-escalation. You made some comments that were good, but then inserted some ambiguity or moral equivalency into your comments, which called into question in my reading what your message is.

    You called on the left to de-escalate. Since I’m not aware of any escalation by the left, and am not even sure who you’re talking to, I asked you for clarification.

    In a later comment you want someone (?) to “the refusal to see evidence as persuasive.” That’s a heck of a comment.

    You seem to be mirroring an earlier comment from Trump that “there were good people on both sides.” Maybe you’re saying, “there were mistakes made on both sides” which contributed to the Capital riots. However, I may be wrong, and if I am, let me know and I will happily retract my reading.

    I believe the Capital riot was a very serious breach of peace and of our society. I think Christians and citizens of good will, peace and of the rule of law, must be unequivocal that there was no justification or excuse for it. Government should not have to work under fear of mobs and we should not live under mob rule.

  64. filbertz says:

    perhaps our own personal defensiveness gets in the way of hearing what another is actually saying…I know I’ve struggled to listen when my internal reactions and rushes to judgment are pushing me to interrupt and assert my perspective. Our collective ability to communicate is being sorely tested. Perhaps it has been for a long time and we now lack the will to try.

  65. Dread says:

    Jean

    “Hands up don’t shoot”

    So there is no refusal to accept evidence in the mostly peaceful 🔥🔥🔥 riots. And they have all been ‘law and order’ resolved?

    Just be even-handed that’s all I ask. Be able to honestly assess your own.

    I think I’ve done that.

  66. Michael says:

    I am exhausted and unwell this morning ,so forgive me if I’m less than competent in writing

    I also think deescalation is necessary, as is a heavy dose of reality.
    70 million people voted for Trump and they weren’t all whatever pejorative you want to label them with.
    As some of them (even here) have moved away from him they have not received a glad reception from those of us who have opposed him from the beginning.
    We have not sought to understand the reasons why they invested in Trump, we have demanded sackcloth and ashes while we decide what penance is righteous.
    What we will end up doing is keeping millions in a state of alienation to be taken in by the next demagogue who may actually be intelligent.
    This isn’t as simple as some of us want to make it… cities burned this summer with little outcry from many and the rush to redefine humanity goes on unchecked.
    In a few days Trump will be gone, but the forces that created him will still be present.
    This is an opportunity to repent and reconcile.
    For all of us…

    .

  67. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean/Dread

    I think we all know the political dimensions of what took place at the Capitol… for myself, I’m more interested in the faith dimensions and motivations.

  68. Michael says:

    As for the church…we are in exile and need to “come out from among them’…

  69. Xenia says:

    Well here’s the thing: those of us who reluctantly voted for Trump and now regret it…. this doesn’t mean we’ve abandoned our conservative beliefs. In disavowing Trump we haven’t become liberals.

  70. LInn says:

    If you are old enough to remember the outfall of the end of the Vietnam War (whether you were opposed or against), it took about 10 years for the pro and anti sides to make peace with each other. In my family, I have an uncle who volunteered for four tours in Vietnam. My father was furious because he was passionately against the war. At some point, they must have had a conversation. They gradually saw that their polarization wasn’t helping each other, and that they both had good reasons for their beliefs regarding the war. Some of the Trump conspiracy stuff is harder to swallow as it seems to be so outrageously untrue, but conversations (polite ones) help us to see where other people are coming from.

    A case in point: at my non-Christian school, my colleagues know I am a Christian, but they also know I’m not a Trumpeteer. That has led to discussions about why I am not pro-Trump, but can still be pro-life and non pro-gay marriage. It has also been a time to talk about Jesus. No one at school has yelled at me, like some of my Christian friends when they have realized I am not a Trump/stolen election supporter.

  71. bob1 says:

    Xenia,

    Just curious…what do you see as “conservative beliefs” going forward?

    Small government? Limited foreign involvement?

    What agenda do you see for conservatives?

  72. Mike E. says:

    Dread. In the future, when I make comments, I will endeavor hard to direct them to myself first. I believe I stated I was not making an accusation.
    In fact, I acknowledged and also agreed with your call to non-violence. I often write in a self-righteous tone. I am sorry for that. I am not sorry for my statement. I was clarifying.

  73. Mike E. says:

    Me: Ouch. I have a very sharp nasty huge log lodged in my eyeball.

    The prophet to the king: “A man in your kingdom has done such an evil act. He murdered someone weaker than he. Then he stole the only sheep that weak one possessed.”

    The king: bring him to me immediately. It is my duty under the law to deal with this man with no mercy.

    The prophet to the king: “You are the man.”

    Me: I am the man. 😭

  74. Xenia says:

    I would like to see:

    Less foreign involvement, especially foreign wars.
    Less trending toward socialism, although I think health care could use a little socialism.
    Less support for the homosexual/ transgender agenda.
    Less support for programs that promote sexual promiscuity (Planned Parenthood,
    support for some terrible programs being foisted upon schools, etc.).
    I would like to see some kind of program for the homeless. The truly insane need to be
    given institutional care; those that can work should be put to work, and all should have
    housing from whence they can work to re-enter society as best as their capabilities
    allow. They need compassionate help but they don’t have the right to trash the country.
    Less reliance on China.

    As far as big government goes, it’s too late to dial it all back.

    I am in favor of racial equality.
    I am not in favor of sexual perversion equality.

    Foreign aide to countries in Africa is often tied to the acceptance of abortion. I would like to see that come to an end.

    As to immigration, I would like to make it easier for people to come to this country in a legal way. I am pro immigration but prefer it be done legally, so make it easier. Absolutely no separation of families!!!!

    Basic Christian morality, really. Some things are not a matter of Christian morality, just prudent policy.

    One might object that the US isn’t a Christian country so why hold it to Christian morality.
    Nevertheless, these are the kinds of things I’d like to vote for, if any decent candidate could put together a package like this, I’d be for it. It will never happen, so I compromise. Sometimes, to my regret, I compromise too much.

  75. Dread says:

    MikeE

    Thanks. Once more it becomes clear how hard it is for us to all have human interactions with vigorous passion and mutual respect. You do it well. I am trying and that is why I censor myself from participation much more than before. Peace to you.

  76. Bride of Christ says:

    I so agree with Michael’s 10:20 comment. On a different blog space I was partivipating in, a Republican admitted they voted for Trump and now regretted having done so ( this was about 2 years ago). So many people posted angry responses such as, “It’s your fault” and ” You caused this”. I was the only one posting who said,”Thank you for sharing this online. It gives me hope” and even,” Don’t beat yourself up: they call him ‘Don the Con’ for a good reason”. We must forgive , and move on ! These folks are already angry at thenselves and feel shame and regret. That said, I see many Christians posting here who seem to gave partially ‘owned’ being deceived by Trump, spreading the falsehoods, and promoting Christian nationialism , but they haven’t yet really vowed to ‘Let it go”. It could be that this is a process that takes time and proceeds in stages. I will continue to pray that Christians bravely seek the truth, perhaps disconnect from certain social media sites and news outlets, and most of all – pray for the Holy Spirit to guide them in all things and for God to bless them with wisdom.

  77. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    … And in the 1960s, that would have made you a moderate Democrat, or a moderate Republican. It seems like now we are all out of the mainstream of American politics. Maybe we should be…

  78. Xenia says:

    Not to make excuses for myself, but I don’t believe I was ever fooled by Trump. I never believed a word he ever said but I was hopeful for good Supreme Court justices and maybe a decent cabinet. But that was a mistake.

  79. Em says:

    God bless us all with wisdom, discernment, and many of us need the blessing of strength of mind AND body… .
    God strengthen us, mind and body
    Thank You, Father, thank YOU! 🙏
    😘

  80. Linn says:

    B of C,

    I think many people voted for Trump, and had no idea what he was actually capable of until last Wednesday.

  81. Em says:

    Vietnam War? My very conservative husband did not approve of our tactics and said our son would be in Canada, if we were still involved when he was draft elgible….
    He became a proud Marine (sorry pacifists) and by God’s grace wasn’t in those barracks that were blown up in Lebanon….
    Even though there are most definitely TWO kingdoms, we are still citizens with responsibilities to the nation in which we are citizens.. There is nothing in Scripture that frees us from “rendering unto Caesar the things that are his.” Taxes, voting, defense etc.

  82. Kevin H says:

    I have said many times before that I have never condemned anyone for voting for Trump. I disagree with their judgment to do so, but I don’t condemn them. What I have tried to consistently condemn all this time is the many times Christians have purposefully ignored, justified, or even joined in on Trump’s many wrongdoings. I have also condemned the mantra that only became a mantra when Trump was running for president that character doesn’t matter, especially for those who used to preach the importance of character and/or have long slammed Obama and the Clintons and now Biden for perceived character shortcomings.

    When looking for repentance to hopefully bring about reconciliation, we need to focus on those things that are clearly in violation of God’s Word (lying, slander, bullying, intentionally ignoring or justifying any of these behaviors, etc.), and not other things such as whether or not someone voted for Trump or if we think they’re too concerned about Supreme Court Justices.

    If we focus on the latter, we’re only go to add to the wrongfulness taking place as we become just like those who wrongfully decry misconduct and immorality in manners that are unclear or even where the evidence speaks to there being no wrongdoing in the first place.

  83. Duane Arnold says:

    Kevin H

    I think when we morph political opinions into theological certainties we’ve missed the mark… and that’s on either side of the political spectrum.

  84. Mike E. says:

    Xenia… you may be shocked to know that I agree with many of your conservative views. It’s just that the Republican party, in my view, is no longer that conservative party. They have abandoned true conservative thought for extremism, terrifying duplicity to the nth degree and violence. That’s why I could never support anyone in the republican party until the extremism is dealt with. Peace to you sister X…And please… To all posters…I understand the Democratic Party also has extremists and duplicity and the rest. I just see in their Platform More of a concern for common folks like me and my grandchildren’s healthcare. 🤷🏻‍♂️

  85. JimmieT says:

    Xenia @ 11:16 if it matters I’m in total agreement! A thousand thanks!

  86. Em says:

    Trump’s many wrong doings?
    As a President, other than his raw facebopk postings, what were President Trump’s wrongdoings? ? ?
    Just in case i was caught up in them…… 😉

  87. Jean says:

    Em,

    I’m not in the mood to catalog his wrong doings, which are manifold. But here’s something to consider: We need a president right now. We need presidential leadership right now.

    Between 3k-4k people are dying daily around our country over the past couple of weeks. The administration of the Covid vaccine is going terrible. At this rate it will take years to vaccinate our country.

    This morning almost 1 million Americans filed for unemployment. The country will not open up with the current level of the pandemic in this country.

    Trump has stopped presiding. At least make it official and let Pence finish the last week. He’s not only screwing me and my neighbors, but everyone in this country that depends on an open and safe economy.

    We need an acting president right now!

  88. Em says:

    Those vaccines were distributed and under the control of the individual states – evidently the need to keep them extremely cold has been a problem for states

  89. Em says:

    Actong President? We’re 6 days away from getting a President who’s a pretty good actor…..

    Sorry…. 🙏

  90. Jean says:

    Those are lame excuses. First, only one of the vaccines, from Pfizer/Biontech, requires a special freezer. The Moderna vaccine is stable in a regular freezer. But, in either case, if America could send an astronaut to the moon (do we all believe that actually happened?), then it should be able to get vaccine to every inch of American territory immediately. How many months (4-6) did the federal government know about the cold chain issue?

    Second, the States can’t get the job done. Most of them are incompetent and without the resources to conduct a Statewide vaccination program on a timely basis.

    Only the Federal Government has the resources, infrastructure and supply chain to conduct a nationwide effective vaccination program.

    However, even under the current program, the President should be intimately involved. This pandemic is a national security issue. It should be at the top of the president’s agenda when he wakes up and when he goes to bed.

    In addition, the current rightwing terror threat to our country in the form of planning to provoke a race war, should also be job one for the president.

    We need an acting president right now.

  91. Xenia says:

    Mike and Jimmie – Thanks!

  92. Jean says:

    “We’re 6 days away from getting a President who’s a pretty good actor…..
    Sorry…. 🙏”

    Why do you call him an actor? And why apologize immediately after insulting him? Your apologies do not come across as sincere at all.

  93. Em says:

    Apologizing for wisecrack, Jean… Couldn’t resist
    God keeo

  94. Bride of Christ says:

    Em, ten Republicans voted to impeach Trump yesterday because Trump was the cause of the assault on the capital that has so far resulted in the violent deaths of five Americans. His phone call to the voting official in Georgia urging him to manufacture votes for him may also result in criminal charges. Even If you can overlook children in cages and his disrespect towards beloved patriotic war heroes such as Senator John McCain and others, Trump’s reckless endangerment of the Capital legislators and police officers and his illegal phone call is a bridge too far for even Republicans who once supported Trump.

  95. DH says:

    Thankfully they finally arrested Trump supporter John Sullivan for breaking into the Capitol and that guy walking around with the new Confederate flag that still had folds in it.

  96. Everstudy says:

    BOC,

    Please don’t make me defend Trump, but the phone call was likely not illegal.

    Trump wasn’t asking Georgia to manufacture votes as much as he was asking them to find the votes he believed to exist (but don’t).

    Not good, but not illegal.

  97. gdaddy says:

    Trump supporter?

  98. Everstudy says:

    Mike E. – I can agree to a point that the Republican party has left conservative ideals, especially in regards to government spending and the deficit. But it’s a bit too far to say that “[t]hey have abandoned true conservative thought for extremism, terrifying duplicity to the nth degree and violence”.

    Of the 211 current members in the House, which ones fit your characterization? Of the 50 current senators, which ones fit your characterization?

  99. Everstudy says:

    gdaddy?

    Me? Nope.

  100. Everstudy says:

    Jean,

    “Second, the States can’t get the job done. ” They should be able to get the job done, they’ve had months to prepare for it. Each state is so different from each other it makes sense for the states to devise a plan that works for that state. Here in California, our governor has made it more difficult by adding an additional hurdle of his equity list. As of a few days ago, California was 48th in getting the available vaccines out.

    “How many months (4-6) did the federal government know about the cold chain issue?” The problem with this, and the training for those who are giving the vaccines, is that the states did not know if the FDA was going to approve of the vaccines. California didn’t start training people until the FDA gave the emergency approval.

    “However, even under the current program, the President should be intimately involved.” Completely agree, I think the president should have been working closer with the states. Unfortunately, several governors made it unworkable (NY and CA) due to their hatred of Trump.

  101. gdaddy says:

    Everstudy, I am questioning whether or not John Sullivan is a Trump supporter. From what I’ve read, he is not. Correct me if I’m wrong….

  102. Xenia says:

    I am of a group that is next in line, after front-line folks, to get the shot. But Monterey County in CA doesn’t have enough vaccine for my group. Who knows when…

  103. Everstudy says:

    Xenia,

    I’m under 50, so it’ll be a while before I get to get in line. I’m hoping by the spring (May/April) I’ll have a chance.

    If the LAFD was able to vaccinate their entire department, plus some, in three weeks, it can be done.

  104. Anon says:

    I like this guy’s plan.

    Here is my plan for at least the next few months:

    Do not read any story about Trump.
    If a news program mentions Trump, change the station.
    Do not tweet or retweet anything about Trump.
    If someone mentions Trump in conversation, ask them to change the topic.
    Declare your home, office and church Trump-free zones.
    Anyone who mentions Trump at dinner gets no dessert.

    Instead, read stories about climate change, refugees, the unemployed, COVID-19 and the new administration. Read the Scriptures. Pray. Treat Trump like a temptation that must be thrust from your mind. Let him become “he who cannot be named.”

    We must get over our obsession with Trump and return to building the kingdom of God, a kingdom of justice and peace.

    https://religionnews.com/2021/01/12/time-to-stop-obsessing-over-trump/

  105. Bride of Christ says:

    Anon, ..I love your post.

  106. DH says:

    gdaddy, Yeah Trump people left his speech 5 minutes after it started so they could walk the 40 or so minutes to the Capitol to break into the Capitol before his speech ended.

  107. DH says:

    I think 4 a.m. ballot dumps for democrats and censorship of conservatives is good for American freedom. I wonder if they will tear down the wall now.

  108. Jesus being the rightful King, I plan on putting as much time and energy into politics and government as He did. 🙂

  109. DH says:

    PH check your eschatology, were building the Kingdom.
    “And the government shall be on his shoulders”

  110. DH, I should have clarified: human governments! Yes, I’m all about the kingdom of which Jesus will have complete rule. And even now, Jesus declared “the kingdom is in your midst.” For me, that’s the kingdom I want to promote. 🙂

    I am an engaged citizen. I vote. I’m aware of issues. I just can’t live and breathe and fight politics all the time. We are in a social death spiral. Arguing will not pull us out of the nose dive.

    I’m pouring most my energy into the ministry opportunities that are popping up everywhere we look. I’m all about the kingdom mandate announced by Jesus in the synagogue of Nazareth (which created an uprising of its own!).

  111. Jesus said, “The harvest is ripe, but the workers are few.” I have to think the reason for so few laborers is that we are entertained/distracted/consumed to the point of ineffectiveness.

  112. Linn says:

    Pineapple Head,
    i so appreciate your perspective. It’s the one I’ve tried to cultivate over the past few decades-be civic-minded, but don’t let it take over the work of the kingdom.

  113. Mike E. says:

    Everstudy–the new Q Anon freshman representatives, Jim Jordan, Matt Gaetz, all the extremists, some of whom were allegedly may have been at least partially involved in the insurrection. How about the GOP caucus members who were actually present at Trump’s rally? On the Senate side…Sen. Graham of course, Ron Johnson, J Hawley, Ted Cruz. I mean…I could go on but it’s not necessary. I will say this though. If any Congressperson is found to have been involved in any way, they should be expelled and prosecuted.

  114. Everstudy says:

    Mike E.

    I’ll grant anybody that follows anything QAnon is a loon.

    But Jordan and Gaetz, extremists? I guess it depends on your definition of extremist.

    “[W]ere allegedly may have been at least partially involved in the insurrection…” That’s one heck of a qualification there. You’re accusing people without facts.

    “Graham of course, Ron Johnson, J Hawley, Ted Cruz.” Of course… /note sarcasm/. While I think Hawley and Cruz were wrong for objecting the electoral college votes, they are not extremists. Unless your definition of extremist is anyone right of center that you disagree with.

    “If any Congressperson is found to have been involved in any way, they should be expelled and prosecuted.” Agreed.

  115. The hilarious/tragic thing (depending on my mood) is that our governing officials are ELECTED! We send them into office. They represent us…and most often resemble us.

  116. Everstudy says:

    Mike E.

    In a general sense, your comments about the Republicans is one of the reasons why Trump won in 2016 in the first place. After the media, the Democrats, and the Left went hard after Romney, with Biden telling an AA church that Romney was going to put them back in chains and Romney didn’t respond, the right saw someone in Trump that hit back. We were tired of being called racists by the Left, tired of being called extremists, tired of all of us being lumped in with a small percentage of bad actors, and finally saw someone that would punch right back.

  117. Everstudy says:

    BTW, I did not vote for Trump in 2016, have never liked him, and only voted for him as a protest vote in 2020.

  118. DH says:

    PH. Thumbs up. Moody wanted to save as many as he could too. Not that Moody could save anyone I digress.

  119. Jean says:

    Everstudy,

    Rather than argue with you about the vaccine rollout, I will simply say that the next administration is going to approach it with much greater emphasis on national leadership and implementation. It has promised 100 million vaccinations in the first 100 days.

    I’m not going to cheerlead for it here, except to say that in the country’s best interest, I hope it is successful (or even 90% successful). However, whether someone voted for him or not, or believes his plan will work or not, after 100 days, we can all grade the plan’s success. Unlike the incumbent, I don’t expect that the next administration will shirk responsibility for its own effectiveness with regard to the vaccine effort.

  120. Mike E. says:

    Ever study. Typical of the Trump cult to play the victim. Always blaming someone else. Yes, ES, it’s everyone else’s fault. It’s my attitude that caused people to follow a psychopath? Not saying you’re a brainwashed cultist. But a lot of them are, and while you yourself may not be, stop the victim crap please. Take responsibility for your part. And I’ll take responsibility for mine. But you’re not gonna blame me for your participating. Not happening.

  121. Em says:

    “We were tired of being called racists by the Left, tired of being called extremists, tired of all of us being lumped in with a small percentage of bad actors, and finally saw someone that would punch right back.”
    Well, what we learned is that the Left doesn’t play fair … now the question is, how does a Christian stand their ground without being UnChristian?
    have to ponder taking up our crosses and following, I guess – not intended as a “victim statement” BTW

  122. Everstudy says:

    Mike

    Dude, chill out.

    Playing the victim? You guys have been assuming why people voted for Trump, I simply gave you a reason. My responsibility? I didn’t vote for him in 2016, voted as a protest vote in 2020, knew he lost on election night, didn’t buy into the ‘it’s been stolen’ lie. I’ve never supported Trump.

    I’m not blaming ‘you’ or anyone for my “participating” (if I did participate).

    We can all see that our culture is broken, but here we’ve set the right at a different standard than the left. But that’s fine, I’m used to that, it’s been that way my entire life.

  123. Everstudy says:

    The last two sentences sound too whiney, disregard.

  124. Mike E. says:

    ES…I’m very chill, man. But you made statements directed at me and I was simply conveying my thoughts.

  125. Mike E. says:

    Em…was storming the Capitol building resulting in the deaths of 5 Americans (one more than Benghazi) “fair?”Lying about and trying to overturn a certified election fair? Again, everyone, left and right are victims. I do think there are real victims involved. To me, the real victims are black folks and Brown folks. Also the poor white folks who get used by the rich and powerful to vote against their own interests. But that’s just me.

  126. Em says:

    good points, Mike E….but…
    i understand the FBI was telling Congress that they’d picked up indications that some were planning that attack several weeks before the “march.” I heard all of Trumps speech to the crowd that day and nothing he said would have incited what happened.
    Was it wrong? Yes! Who did it? not sure… far, far right wingers, i suppose, but not, repeat not planned by Trump or the massive crowd demonstrating that day…
    A certified election, but there were still many irregularities… starting with circumventing the Constitution which stipulates ONLY the individual State’s Congresses can set election procedures… enough hanky panky 🙂 to swing the votes in favor of Biden? Dunno
    For me the victims include all American citizens excepting a very high level privileged few… has it always been this way? Dunno
    God keep

  127. Mike E. says:

    Em “For me the victims include all American citizens excepting a very high level privileged few” agreed and I think a lot of democrats believe the same..that’s basically what I said above, black and other minorities, AND poor white folks, taken advantage of by billion dollar corporation who take corporate welfare (Amazon did not pay one cent in federal taxes under the Republican plan. Dunno either. 😉

  128. Em says:

    Mike E, lots of things would benefit from from better regulations – agreed
    I have heard that a politician’s career is dependent on the favors he/she dishes out to the powerful… to big money…
    Trouble is that voters tend to go for nice smiles and those who say, “i feel your pain.. “. They don’t. 🙆

    Joe Average citizen just has to find ways to work, around, to navigate the maze, i guess….. DUnno, though do i….

  129. Mike E. says:

    Em..sure you do. 😉

  130. Duane Arnold says:

    Em

    The “rigged election” is a myth and has been proven to be so…

  131. Jean says:

    Duane,

    I don’t think anyone would question the conservative credentials of Betsy Devos, the Secretary of Education under Trump for the entire first term up to 1/7/21. From her resignation letter, she evidently heard things a lot differently than some here:

    “We should be highlighting and celebrating your Administration’s many accomplishments on behalf of the American people,” DeVos wrote to Trump. “Instead, we are left to clean up the mess cause by violent protestors overrunning the U.S. Capitol in an attempt to undermine the people’s business. That behavior was unconscionable for our country. There is no mistaking the impact your rhetoric had on the situation, and it is the inflection point for me.

    “Impressionable children are watching all of this and they are learning from us,” she continued. “I believe we each have a moral obligation to exercise good judgement and model the behavior we hope they would emulate. They must know from us that America is greater than what transpired yesterday.

    “To that end, today I resign from my position effective Friday, January 8, in support of the oath I took to our Constitution, our people, and our freedoms.”

    Notable at the end the resignation letter is that DeVos concluded that upholding her oath to the Constitution compelled her to resign from the Trump Administration. To remain there would be to her a betrayal of her oath!

  132. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    The Jesus I know is the one revealed in the Gospels. He is the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount; the least of these; the Jesus who said his kingdom was not of this world, otherwise his followers would fight. I still have no idea about the Jesus whose name was emblazoned on placards, signs and banners in the attack on the Capitol…

    Paul spoke of “another gospel”, that is, a false gospel. Merely invoking the name “Jesus” is not enough. The insurgents at the Capitol would not have recognized the real Jesus if he had walked among them. If anything, they probably would have attacked him with their flags and signs if he called for peace…

  133. Small church member says:

    Great article

  134. Mike E. says:

    Duane…your post yesterday, 6:24.

    I’m beginning to question the whole His Kingdom alone narrative. I don’t disagree that it is clearly taught in Scripture. But so is good citizenship. There must be a balance somewhere. I mean, we have responsibilities and duties to our fellow citizens, especially since we’re called to love them.

    I guess my thought is…we risk the binary way of thinking it’s either/or. I don’t think you actually think in binary terms. I see you speaking out about the temporal issues, and I appreciate it. I’m not challenging your thoughts, personally. I’m just asking the question: Do we run the risk of being “so heavenly minded we are no earthly good?”

    Signed, Sheep with old religious cliches’. 😉

  135. Mike E, functional citizenship is a great goal and helps everything move along more smoothly. My dad was a hobbyist dog trainer and he would always say that, ultimately, he was looking to develop dogs into “becoming good citizens.” He sought to (1) help dogs behave well among people and other dogs and (2) to be productive based on their breed. To him, those two goals were the win.

  136. Duane Arnold says:

    Mike E.

    I don’t think it is either/or, but rather a matter of our priorities… “Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God…” (emphasis added 😁)

  137. Linn says:

    Mike E.

    I think you can find a balance between 1 Thes. 4:11-12 and Rom. 13:1-7. We as believers are called to live exemplary lives, and to also submit to the government. Sometimes, there may be a clash with our beliefs, but then I believe we are called to “peaceful resistance” and to work through channels before we take the course of what might be civil disobedience, but not violence. That’s my personal conviction, and I have stood on that hill and “died” on it a couple of times in my life, especially where racial prejudice comes into play.

  138. Linn says:

    Duane,

    Yes, I forgot that in my response! Always the Kingdom of God, first.

  139. Em says:

    Question can arise, “What is Caesar’s?”
    You have a rental property and a “married” same sex couple with their adopted children wish to rent it. Law says you can’t discriminate, but God says you can’t affirm. Do you go to prison obeying God? Yes.. May be some tough times ahead for the Church….. Dunno

  140. Jean says:

    How is renting a property affirming the sexuality of the tenant?

    Where does God say anything about affirming? He says do not engage in sexual immorality.

  141. Duane Arnold says:

    Linn

    Your personal conviction is mine as well… In the years to come, I don’t believe that I will regret marching with women four years ago, or marching against racial injustice this last summer…

  142. Em says:

    Jean, you are too much an attorney always a way out? Duunno… 🙆

  143. Mike E. says:

    Duane…agreed..Kingdom first. I would expect nothing more from an accomplished scholar such as yourself to notate the Emphasis added. 😉 :).

    Lately, in social media posts where I “quote scripture” I just throw it out there and I figure, you recognize it, fine. Tired. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    But also…what I’m talking about is not our priorities, as in, what comes first. I understand that. What I’m getting at is…the Kingdom vs. the government “narrative” sometimes can bring good Christian people to the point of abandoning temporal responsibilities, because the Kingdom takes priority. Of course it does, but….balance.

  144. Mike E. says:

    PH..I’m sorry, don’t know if your dad is still with us, but if he is, can I adopt him? 😎🐶🐕🐕‍🦺🐾🦴

  145. Mike E. says:

    Sorry, Em. Linn, this is also a response to your comment. I’m vibing with Jean at least on the question. He didn’t make a statement, he asked a question. That question, if I understand it correctly, is: Where does God command the believer to go against civil laws to appease Him? So many believers seem to think we as believers are obligated to follow the Mosaic law in civil government. It’s not true, IMO. We as believers are not under the Mosaic law. Then why do we as believers demand unbelieving people to abide by it? Big time disconnect for this obtuse man. But, Em, I so vibe also with your, “but I dunno, do I?” 🤷🏻‍♂️

  146. bob1 says:

    I’m with Jean and Mike E.

    If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. Give or work at the local pregnancy assistance centers, or whatever they’re called.

    If you believe same sex marriage is wrong, then work with local legislators to see if it can
    be changed. And don’t get involved in one. 🙂 We have little control over what others do, anyway.

    I think one reason (there are also others) conservative Xns are scorned by some in our culture is that they’re constantly trying to foist their brand of morality on everyone else — it’s constant overreach. Instead of foisting so much and lobbing grenades, why don’t we actually talk with those who don’t see it the way we do?. Try understanding. Empathy is free.

    Etc. Etc.

  147. Duane Arnold says:

    The New Yorker has released video footage of inside the Capitol. I encourage viewers to go to 7:55 on the video to witness the “prayer”…
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/video-dept/a-reporters-footage-from-inside-the-capitol-siege

  148. bob1 says:

    Great “prayer.”

    Great Xn “witness.”

    The scene where they’re wrecking media equipment is sickening.

    Tyrants always attack the media.

    I’m sure Hitler’s SA would be so proud…

  149. Duane Arnold says:

    Bob1

    Unbelievable…invoking Jesus’ name as they vandalize the place. Christian nationalism, hooliganism…this is the worst of American civil religion mixed with a so-called evangelicalism.

  150. Mike E. says:

    Did you notice, “Cruz (Sen. Ted Cruz R-TX) would want us to do this.” Sen Cruz has forfeited his right to be a U.S. Senator. He fully participated in this, at the very least by his rhetoric. These folks truly believe they are A) doing God’s will and B) their actions are supported and encouraged by certain lawmakers (more like lawbreakers.) To quote Willie S: “Out, damned spot!”

  151. Duane Arnold says:

    Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, will see the video, will hear the prayer… and will believe that this is some sort of an expression of evangelical Christianity. The worst part of it is, they may be right…

  152. Em says:

    Mike E, tell your wife thzt granny says she’s a lucky woman. 😉

  153. Mike E. says:

    Em…Why, thank you dear sister. Shhh…I tell her that every day, but she won’t agree. 😀

  154. Pineapple Head says:

    Mike E, my dad passed in 2006. We approached raising our kids with same goals in mind. 😀

  155. Jean says:

    Duane,

    But I thought it was antifa that mastermind and carried out the sedition?

  156. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    Insurrection, sedition and treason… all on display.

  157. Mike E. says:

    Duane, they (the world) are right. They see clearly what many of us in the church will not. Many are in complete denial, IMO, because actually admitting you were wrong about something of this magnitude is just too damaging to fragile human egos swollen with pride. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

  158. Duane Arnold says:

    Mike E.

    I am convinced that there will be those who will watch the video and deny what they see and hear with their own eyes and ears… As I said, it does not call for a change in opinion, it calls for repentance.

  159. Linn says:

    Duane,
    A friend of mine became very angry with me when she found out I was not voting for Trump. She said we would lose the Republic. We have been in limited contact since then, communicating via email. I’m not ready to be shouted down over the phone again, but I do wonder what she’s thinking.

  160. Duane Arnold says:

    Linn,

    You are most likely being wise. Arguing is pointless. For someone who has bought in to the myths and the lies, facts and reason seem to have little impact. Christian love, regardless of the gulf between you, is probably the best you can do…

  161. Linn says:

    I agree! It’s a close friendship of 40 years. I am hoping there can be a better reconnection after things settle a bit.

  162. Mike E. says:

    Linn. I’m with you, sister. I have lost several friends. I pray it can work out for you and your friend. I’m sorry. It hurts.

  163. Duane Arnold says:

    This from the Washington Post:

    “A review by The Washington Post shows that the self-described Christian website has become a refuge of sorts for outcasts and extremists, including fringe groups such as the Proud Boys as well as conspiracy theorists who seek to undercut the results of the presidential election by promoting debunked claims of fraud. Some of the users claim to have been booted from other crowdfunding websites for violating terms-of-service agreements.

    Postings on GiveSendGo show that at least $247,000 has been raised for 24 people — including at least eight members of the Proud Boys — who claimed online that the money was intended for travel, medical or legal expenses connected to “Stop the Steal” events, including the Jan. 6 rally.”

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