Potters Field Appeals Wage Judgment, Claims Interns Were “Donors”

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48 Responses

  1. Hideous. For the love of money and assumed position and authority we get to see people abused and souls sold for the cheapest of currencies.

  2. Captain Kevin says:

    Oh, I so much want to cuss right now!!! The Rozells are scum!

  3. Barbara DeFazio says:

    Their response shows continued manipulation and using religion as a cover to further their gain. I think they are digging the hole for themselves more and more. They are proving that they use religion to take advantage of young people. They are proclaiming it to the state! Please Dear God send an attorney. Although, I want to say one more thing. Remember that the state has already made their decision after many months of careful deliberation, and I believe they were expecting an appeal from them. It is only an appeal

  4. Michael says:

    Barb,

    I’m hoping the reason it took so long for the decision is that the state expected this kind of bs…but this probably tops anything they expected…

  5. Micah says:

    I think I might have had four on the mount times my entire time working at PFM. I looked at my schedule recently it was 77+ hours a week for over a year straight.

  6. DD says:

    please don’t stop fighting for the victims of Mike and Pam Rozell!

  7. MM says:

    Before you all single out the Rozells as the only bad guys (BTW I’m not defending them at all) you do realize most churches do exactly the same thing with wages, benefits and compensation for their staff and volunteers.

    It is quite a normal thing for only the top people, ie Senior Pastor and a maybe a few staff to actually get paid normal salaries and benefits. And how do they get away with it? Same argument and often with the addition the Senior Pastor must not be muzzled…

    The Rozell’s issues go beyond compensation; it is about abuse and that should not be forgotten. Too bad it is difficult to put a dollar figure on that.

    However, today we should remember those Seals, Rangers, and common soldiers who have fought and fallen so we would be free to actually discuss this issue.

  8. Barbara DeFazio says:

    Malachi 3:5 (NKJV) And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers, Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, And against those who turn away an alien– Because they do not fear Me,” Says the LORD of hosts.

  9. Barbara DeFazio says:

    I do not agree with your statement, MM. What other churches are breaking the law and paying less than minimum wage?

  10. MM says:

    “I do not agree with your statement, MM. What other churches are breaking the law and paying less than minimum wage?”

    Did I say “breaking the law?”

    No what I wrote was they do the same, people work sacrificially for either zero or less than minimum wages and no benefits. And quite often only the top people, Senior Pastor and such, get financially compensated and benefits. I’ve been involved with many churches which do such things and justify it in a similar way. And I’ve done it myself, that is work only for expenses and less, while putting in huge amounts of time.

    On the other hand…

    I also know a mega-church (actually a few in our area) who hire and pay full-time professional musicians, and staff to run various parts of the service. It is also not uncommon for these people to not be of the faith. They are hired for their talent.

    I personally worked with a part time professional singer who was hired every year to sing for a very large Synagogue during their high holy holidays. He wasn’t Jewish, but could sing the traditional songs beautifully.

    I have also worked for a major corporation in the USA which had college interns who also got zero pay. That too was completely lawful because it was considered part of their school’s education program.

    However, the issue in the law is where is the line drawn between volunteers, ministry workers verses hired and paid employees. If the people/interns are hired employees then yes they are violating the laws of the city, state or county.

    The problem with these short blogs are the laws are often complicated and the appeal is trying to redefine what the roles of these interns were. If they can prove their point on a basis of law they will win the suit.

    I did write this really is about leadership and abuse. Using law to penalize them is one way towards justice, but it may not work.

  11. S says:

    I worked for this “ministry” for a little over a year. In December of 2018 we had a staff meeting before Sunday service where we were called out for not paying monthly tithe. If our time was already considered a tithe, why were we coerced to give 10% of our wages in addition? Not to mention we were also pressured into giving at least $20 a month for sponsorship.
    We were never given an option to work at MudMan. An offering is something that is freely given, we were forced.
    Praying this is over soon and those who have filed get what is rightly theirs. God will not be mocked.

  12. Micah says:

    Also looked back at some old PFM emails, on the mount was “mandatory” to be in affect for one hour per shift but that wasn’t put into affect until March 11th, 2019. The email was sent on the 8th saying it was to take affect the 11th.

  13. There is a name for this: indentured servitude, outlawed by the 13th Amendment since it was considered a form of slavery.

  14. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    Look at it this way. If that is the strongest ground to base their appeal, they are in an incredibly weak position to succeed.

    Res Ipsa loquitur

  15. Em says:

    didn’t they keep books? i would think that the question would be, “where did the money go that these ‘volunteers’ earned for these people….. if anything was pocketed, then surely they owe wages….

  16. AA says:

    In my experience MM is correct, I worked for a large church and you never got paid any overtime. You had to work until the job was done so after 40 hours it was “ministry”.

  17. Michael says:

    The fact that some churches screw people over and break labor laws doesn’t make the practice righteous or legal.

  18. Micah says:

    Hey Aa, I appreciate your comment, I do want you to know though you didn’t experience what I lived in. I am still getting over emotional baggage from PFM. I had the “privilege” of becoming a “mudman navy seal” where I got to work 6-7 days a week, at over 80 years quite often. They allowed me to go to California for a little over a month and have one day off. Then I got to go to Portland/ Vancouver (which I loved) but again worked 77+ hours. I washed a huge food trailer countless times, and flipped hamburgers at churches. I wasn’t employed by a “typical church in America.” Where by the way salary is often paid. I worked for a fast food cult that left emotional baggage in my life, and a man who ran it is so obsessed by money that when he is shown he is wrong wont admit to it, but rather hire a lawyer so he can keep his comfortable lifestyle in a house on a hill in whitefish Montana. If you want to compare that to most pastors or churches in America I’d like to beg to differ. When I worked at the restaurant and not the food trailer I worked 77 hours weekly. On my day off I was asked to deacon (set up the church for PFM) (7am) then I had a guys discipleship with mike, followed by church, followed by tearing down the church, then I had to do homework, I did my grocery shopping and then had a guys bible study which I got to present my homework at. I was allowed to leave work twice on Wednesday night to attended PFM Wednesday service. This is not a typical church, please don’t compare it to a typical western church. I don’t like the church in America either to be honest, but to compare it to potters field is a slap in the face to the the bride of Jesus. Oh by the way I made around $1200 a month. Which is like 14,400 a year, then subtract the 200$ rent per month. That’s 12,000 a year. What church do you know is paying their staff 12,000 a year? And I was one of the better off paid employees.

    On another note, in Washington I watched as PFM couldn’t operate the same anymore as the labor laws were finally catching up and I got a pay raise I now made minimum wage and worked 40 hours a week. I made more money working 40 hours a week than when I worked 77-80+ hours a week.

  19. Y says:

    I can fully backup Micah on this. This new “term of art” is the rozells loophole to calling us interns or volunteers. PFM only began limiting employees to 40 hours a week ( a big change from 60-80 we OFTEN worked), because of the negative publicity the ministry began to receive as a result of this blog. It became apparent that Montana does not recognize volunteers as a legal term for an employee and further the expectation that employees would be paid for 40 hours a week and were expected to then DONATE 20 hours per week at a MINIMUM with no wages was infact, not legal…. (clearly the idea of donation is lost on the rozells) it was at that point which leadership was asked to adjust the schedules for hourly employees and restrict them to 40 hours a week. Unfortunately anyone who was considered a salaried employee then had to make up for their lost time which lead to SEVERE burn out (as if we weren’t all already burnt out).
    Couple all of this with the anxiety of knowing that if you express frustration with this or dissatisfaction towards any of this you would be told that you were lazy and had no work ethic, didn’t trust the lord, weren’t really a Christian, or you just needed to soldier up because everyone else around you is working hard, or so and so can easily replace you and you will miss out on the blessings God has for you. That may give you a glimpse for a moment of what it was like to work with this ministry.
    The people pleasing , performance driven, Jesus will only live me if I do xy and z mentally was hammered into us whether it was intentional or not. You cannot attempt to compare this with “other churches”. I’ve worked my fair share of time with other churches as a volunteer and even unpaid internships but never have I been given a schedule at these other churches that discourages personal care like eating and sleeping properly, considered it selfish to spend time with your spouse and children, deemed time off with family from out of town to be a distraction from the things of the lord and his call on your life or even just flat out the wrong thing to do because you are abandoning your brothers and sisters who are covering for you in your time off, or the expectation that I should be available at ALL times for a phone call, a meeting, or a work project.
    Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand, and I believe every person who has ever been a part of PFM or ignite are quite understanding of what personal sacrifice is and have seen blessings in that! But in no way could anyone ever say the Rozells were ever or could ever be right in requiring so much of us without adequate pay. Especially when we were told a very different story and signed up for something described drastically different than what actually took place…
    The sales pitch for ignite and coming to PFM felt a lot like a greasy car salesmen… you think you bought the right car and it turns out to be a lemon…

  20. Mason Jar says:

    Not an ex-employee of this ministry, but ex-employee of a Calvary Chapel. This abuse is systemic. I wish PFM was a sole exception to the kinds of behavior allowed. I was paid $100/mo to work on paper anywhere between 12-18 hours a week. In reality, I was there 32+ hours a week not including the few community events we did (all church services were required, I could not miss a service or Bible study). When I left I was not paid for my last month.
    I cannot begin to imagine the pain endured by the Potters Field employees. They have my support and prayers…

  21. Clarity says:

    It’s super uncomfortable for a lot of people to admit, but many Calvary Chapel “churches” behave this same way, as evidenced by the countless stories on this blog. No, this is not coincidence that the pastor where I used to attend counseled a couple very close to me and sat there while Mike and Pam asked them the same explicit questions they asked their interns. Many of these pastors are complicit. Mason Jar, you are absolutely right. These issues are systemic. Mike and Pam were taught this. No, that doesn’t make them innocent in any sense of the word, however they were recruited and indoctrinated in this ungodly, money loving, fear and control based form of “ministry”. I’ve said it before. These guilty factions of Calvary Chapel are as much churches as David Miscavige and Scientology. God is watching. God is faithful. It WILL all be brought to light.

  22. Steph says:

    The Rozells took what Calvary Chapels do and kicked it up a notch.

    Remove people from families, convince them to obey without question, convince that Calvary Chapel is the only church doing things the right way, and most importantly: instill fear. These ways were copied by Pottersfield because they work at Calvary Chapels. Rozell took a great scheme and ran with it. “You need to serve. You need to give up everything else. You need to ‘go all in’. You need to become a narc for Jesus. You need to be our eyes and ears, report everything back to the leaders. You need to remove everything that is hindering you, especially anyone that’s not ‘full on’ for Calvary Chapel (or Pottersfield)” But unfortunately only the paid leadership reaps the monetary benefits and maintains 100% of the power and control.
    I could go on and on. The Rozells learned from the best and then kicked it up. They were also encouraged and supported by the best and also Calvary Chapels were the ones that continued to push interns to go to their programs, basically funded their mission. The Rozells have been exposed and my, what an ugly representation of Jesus they portrayed for so long. They’re caught now and are scrambling. They look like complete fools. God makes it so easy. Repent. But no, Mike Rozell has decided to fight til the end. Yikes! What would make him think he even has a shot. Maybe it’s because he’s convinced that he’ll land on his feet like his role models. Horrible people.

  23. Micah and Y are very correct. The sacrifice and service of the interns and staff was never enough for Mike and Pam Rozell. They never considered that their demands and expectations prevented everyone from truly living full and healthy lives (spiritually, physically, mentally, emotionally, socially). Whether intentionally or not (and as time drags on one would have a difficult time believing it could possibly have been unintentional) they preached a legalistic, hard, ungracious, unforgiving, workaholic God. They shunned further education and Mike, along with Steve Miller, paraded an anti-intellectualism that is clearly an issue of pride, insecurity and a means to which they could beat down their slaves and keep them in line. How many times I heard them exclaim, ‘I didnt go to seminary…or is it cemetery’ as well as ‘I went to the University of the Holy Spirit, rather than waste money in seminary to learn things God has taught me directly.’ I heard him explain away staff’s desire to go to college and to gain qualifications. I heard gossip about those who wanted to leave and the mocking way they were described. There was even talk or jokes from Mike’s inner circle that one particular couple was sinning bc they wanted to leave. They believed people couldn’t do better than serve under Mike’s lofty position high above all other believers…or as he so often explained was as ‘position before the cross which was not equal to ours.’ They misrepresented God and continue to do so. There was no holistic care-something I see now as something God cares very much for. He cares for our whole selves, afterall, it was Him who created each and every way we are built into the individuals we are.

    I have read their response and appeal to the State of MT. In it, they frequently claim a comparison to Americpors, even presenting a tiered payment and bonus scheme that Americoprs offers (Americorp rewards their staff when they achieve educational goals, exemplifying their conviction that education is something to value and pursue and which could better one’s life). The only way one could present a correlation between the two organizations, Americorps and PFM, is if each organization exchanged a comparable amount of services for the $200 stipend awarded. As it stands: Americorps requires its staff to exchange 40 hours of services, as does most secular business in Montana. This was undeniably not the expectation, requirement, pressure, life sucking amount of hours which PF Puppeteer Michael Rozell sought for the ‘terms of art.’ No one worked 40 hours a week. As is described in their lawyer’s letter of excuses, they were expected to exchange at least 60, and I am only aware of 1 or 2 members of full time interns/workers who worked less than 65 hours per week, often climbing upwards of 80 hours per week. This does not include mandatory church services, mandatory meetings often after a 15 hour shift, mandatory parties on the only 1/2 day off provided (parties and promised mission trips were the dangled carrots of PF), mandatory womens or mens bible studies often running until 11 pm when staff were on the early shift the following morning, mandatory sermons to listen to in ‘free time’, mandatory random ‘discipleship training school’ lessons often encompassing where the staff was still lacking in their servitude. As Micah described above, it was during these meetings which Mike berated his exhausted staff for not giving back a further 10% of their earnings as a financial tithe. Also during one of these sessions prior to Christmas one year Mike explained that it was the staff’s responsibility to help boost sales for Mudman and managed to convince them to purchase gift certificates from Mudman to give as Christmas presents. Clearly the comparison between Americorps and PF is unacceptable.

    What is acceptable is the direct comparison of Michael, Pam Rozell, Steve Miller to that Pharaoh in ancient Egypt. Like Pharaoh, these ‘leaders’ cared about accumulating. For Pharaoh, the value he placed on the Israelite slaves was equivalent to the amount of bricks they made. They made bricks to further his brand of power. Like Pharaoh, Mike, Pam, Miller and several others have a brand they continue to cling to with bloody fingertips, refusing to relinquish control. It was so then as it remains today. Before last July, PF ‘terms of art’ made their bricks for any number of reasons: no where else to go, fear of leaving and suffering social excommunication, worry over the stigma of failing, terrified to be seen as unfaithful or unuseful in service to Jesus, or sadly because we all knew what one less pair of hands meant to everyone else: more bricks. So we smiled, made bricks, didn’t sleep, made bricks, sick? made bricks, parents visited? made bricks, get married? made bricks, have a family? made bricks. I have such a hard time understanding why Mike thought it less of a ministry for the interns and staff to love and be loved by their families. This was especially heart wrenching for the men in the organization who were fathers, to not have time to love and care for their family, even newborns and small children. Flipping burgers and deep frying fries was paramount. I have heard him accuse one father of idolizing his family because he refused to work 70 hours a week bc he wanted some time with his wife and children. Indeed, as I found out later, any father who voiced their internal struggle with working such long hours and not caring for the spiritual, emotional and social needs of his wife and kids, was met with the one accusation which screams of irony: Mike accused these dads of being a narcissist if they felt called to make their family a priority.
    These stories, and countless others, will be the Rozells’ and the Millers’ stones of remembrance

  24. Anonymous says:

    This is the same thing I would hear from Chet Lowe at Calvary Ft Lauderdale when expected to work 80 hours as a mother with multiple young kids in school. I was paid a fraction of the pay men I worked with doing the same job were. It did not matter if my kids were young, had exams or school projects, etc. I was told if I did not work there would no longer be a position for me. It was “mandatory” volunteering (even if it was a “day off”).

  25. Steph says:

    I tell my kids, “Our Christian family might do some things the same and some things differently than other ‘Christian’ families.”
    “Then how do we know who is actually a true Christian?” they say.
    “By their fruit, you look for the fruit.”

    Calvary Chapels say, “We are all different. We agree on the Distinctives but we are not a denomination.” In fact, that’s part of their claim to fame. (They might even own the ‘book by book, verse by verse’ copyright!! (*wink*) )
    Okay, so we will watch for your fruit, Calvary Chapel and subsequently, Pottersfield/Mud Man. Your fruit is not looking very good.

    It seems like this “non denomination” has quite a few unwritten rules that have mysteriously travelled throughout the organization and also to its offshoots like Pottersfield. Many, including these unethical work demands, are corrupt to the core. I’ve heard the argument that each Calvary Chapel is different. While this may be true, personally, I’d never step foot in one again. The rotten fruit that I’ve personally seen as well as the story after story and comment after comment that I’ve read on this blog, have convinced me that the Calvary Chapel model produces too much rotten fruit.
    The interns that have and will continue to speak up about Pottersfield have hopefully done more than just expose a nasty man and his wife. Not only have Mike and Pam Rozell’s true motives been revealed; but the entire Calvary Chapel organization is being questioned because stories continue to reveal the many similarities.

  26. Micah says:

    Haha, forgot about the gift cards, it was to help the kids in other countries as mudman was slower in the winter, but we still somehow had the money to pay for two food trailers and were in the process of opening another store. Which the fact there was four-six people working at a restaurant at a time. We were understaffed and opening more locations, yet “our hours were going to be lessened.”

    Also please stop comparing PFM to Calvary Chapel, my dads a calvary pastor, I’ve been around Calvary Chapel for a while, I don’t agree theologically with a lot of stuff they teach and practice, but PFM and Calvary are not similar. If you never were in PFM you have no stance to compare the two. You may think you know, but you have no clue. It’s rather insulting hearing you compare the two. Mike started putting the blame on Calvary too, saying he only did things as he learned from Calvary, he needs to own what he did as his sin and not Calvary Chapels. I’ve been in a Calvary Chapel Bible college for a year now, and it was a healing experience, they are not the same thing as PFM. I understand some of you were hurt by Calvary, but it’s not even close to PFM levels.

  27. Micah says:

    To go off what I said above, we all moved to Pottersfield properties and lived with eachother, we had a community life, we were around eachother 24 hours a day. Calvary Chapel is a church where you get to go on sundays and Wednesday’s and sometimes a couple other times a week and go home. You don’t need to be available 24 hours a day. I tore my ac joint in my shoulder while wrestling someone at home one night. I went to the hospital and they put me in a sling. The next day I went to work and in the sling and got rebuked twice and PFM rebukes are not your typical church rebukes. So stop comparing the two, I could go on, but this is just a brief example.

  28. Steph says:

    Micah
    It’s awful to hear the stories from Pottersfield and I hope that everyone that was hurt by that organization has a complete healing and an encouraged, satisfied feeling when this is all through.

    That being said, I can compare the two if I see similarities. That’s one of the perks I still have as an American. The Moses Model is the one that the Calvary Chapel that I attended for many years uses. I could go on and on listing example after example of very unChristian practices that were and are still being used there. Absolutely controlling and manipulating people. As far as I’ve heard, many of the Calvarys are using that model of church leadership. From the many stories of interns that I’ve read and also communicated personally with, it sounds as if Mike Rozell used a very similar approach. As I said before, Rozell kicked it up a notch. He operated on a different level. He may not have had as many obstacles as a pastor would have and could therefore take it to extremes.

    When I found this site and read so many stories of people from Calvary Chapels across the country, I was shocked at similarities. Methods that were used at my church were exactly what other people were seeing all around the country. I also saw the Handbook for and Assisting Pastor and literally gasped. They do those things!! I know they do. I saw them. I heard them. They still do regardless of publication and distribution of the actual book/pamphlet.

    Maybe your church is an exception. I know there are some.

  29. Clarity says:

    Micah-

    It’s actually us ex Calvary that see this for what it is. It’s an evil corrupt man mimicking corrupt pastors that taught him a lot of what he knows. I know several of these corrupt “pastors”. That’s great that your dad is not. I say that in all honesty. There are still good people there. However, the organization to its core, is corrupt. Take a look through this site. It’s a wealth of knowledge on this truth. This topic has been examined, and proven. Look up “The Ministry of An Assisting Pastor” by Larry Taylor. The no talk rule that Calvary absolutely does abide by, is what caused parents and interns of Pottersfield to withhold information from other concerned parents or parents just wondering if they should send their kids. This practice is just one of their countless damaging practices. The sad truth is that Calvary leadership will just say they don’t follow that Larry Taylor leadership anymore and people will accept it. I for one was appalled that they actually had literature like that and absolutely still abide by it.

    Maybe for you, you could attend on Sundays and Wednesday’s. Again, that’s good for you. However, to discredit the countless accounts of scorned former “Calvarites” on this website (which is a minimal fraction of how many exist) by telling us we can’t compare the two? That’s actually not in ANY way your call to make. I understand it would make people that still attend uncomfortable, but you’re speaking against hundreds and much more than likely thousands of people that have gone through EXACT scenarios of what Mike Rozell put his interns through. The pastor of the Calvary Chapel I attended said the EXACT quotes that Rozell did, and treated people on several occasions EXACTLY the same way. The difference was he had/has more people watching him so he can’t get away with as much. He didn’t open a ranch in rural Montana where he could do and say exactly what he wanted. Given the chance, the nature of this man tells me he would froth at the mouth for that opportunity.

  30. Micah says:

    My church isn’t a Calvary Chapel, I don’t attend a Calvary anymore. Like I said, I disagree a lot on a theological level. Sure you can see similarities in how things were run, but you weren’t at PFM. You have no clue what actually happened. I’ve been to countless Calvary chapels and sure they have some similarities to PFM, I’ve read “second” the book for assistant pastors if that’s what you’re referring to. I’ve read Calvary distinctives. The Moses model I also don’t agree with, but to say it was just kicked up a notch at PFM isn’t correct. Calvary chapel isn’t a cult. I’m sorry if you had a bad time in your experience, but you haven’t the slightest clue of what we lived in at PFM. Like I said before you at least got to go home at Calvary. The Moses model ends in church life. The PFM regime never ended and if you left PFM under any disagreement with the staff you were berated, I’ve been to the meetings where people were berated. Calvary Chapel isn’t perfect I absolutely agree, they have pained a ton of people, but please stop comparing it to PFM. I have experienced the pains of both and it’s no where near the same!

  31. Clarity says:

    Are the people who have shared their experiences at PFM lying? I have experienced EXACT same things. I don’t think I can be more clear. For the sake of anonymity I’m choosing to refrain from giving specific examples but now you’re making me want to take a step back and write down things I’m comfortable sharing. All do respect, you have no clue what I’ve/my family experienced. Not a single clue. Sounds a bit too Calvary for me with the attempt to discredit so for now I’m taking a break from this…..

  32. Steph says:

    $100,000 question! Who gets to determine cult status? Truly, it’s been a question of mine for a while. Would any organization label themselves a cult? Clearly, no.

    Also, I have a slight clue of what went on at Pottersfield since I’ve read every one of the first hand accounts on this blog thanks to Michael and his diligence.

    And to say the Moses model ends in church life is just absolutely absurd. Impossible. That level of control is ceaseless.
    With a pastor father, you may not have seen some of realities of the peon servants. I’d never discredit you and say that you didn’t have a slight clue of a low life congregant. I’m sure you’ve heard accounts.

  33. Michael says:

    Let’s cool off.
    My experience over the years is that very similar things have happened in CC churches that happened at PFM.
    That experience now covers over thirty years and thousands of people spoken with and counseled.
    What happened to someone else doesn’t lessen or mitigate what has happened to someone personally…

  34. Michael says:

    “The Moses model ends in church life.”
    Sometimes…but I’ve seen it exercised down the the core of people and families. Over and over again.

    That’s why I knew all the interns were telling the truth…I’ve seen that show before…

  35. Steph says:

    Bingo

  36. Bonzii says:

    Christians,
    Let’s not forget who we follow. The Messiah , the Christ. He gave us insight into our own condition. He revealed how human traditions, emotions and desires can cloud the truth of God.
    He told us how to go out into the harvest. How to visit towns and stay with worthy members of the community as we bring the truth. To ultimately depend on God for what we need as we serve Him. He instructed his apostles to go out in 2’s and not take much. To not appear to be or be a business but rather instructors in the truth of life.
    The Rozells started out as 2 people delivering their understanding of the word of God to communities around the country and ultimately around the world. It appears that becoming a business distorted their view of reality.
    This loss of concentration on the teachings of Jesus derailed their goal of bringing the truth to the world and they both need to ask God what is the plan now and please bring me into Your will. We all do……….
    We are all a flower quickly fading. We will all be judged by our fruits and we alone are responsible for our deeds.
    God has a plan for all our lives, everything that happens is a lesson for us. We have a goal, to love like God loves to the best of our ability because if we can’t love, God doesn’t want to hang out with us at the next level. And if we can’t forgive, we will hurt ourselves. That’s the way God constructed our computers, our limbic systems. Unforgiveness blocks the circuit to contentedness.
    The year long condemnation of PFM seems a little bitter to me. And the progression toward condemnation of Calvary Chapel in general is slightly alarming due to the natural progression that follows:
    PFM was supported by Calvary Chapel. Calvary Chapel is a Christian church. Christian organizations believe in a God. Obviously, belief in God is a bad thing…………….

    The instructions from Jesus were to be wise and as gentle as doves in our delivery of His message. He told us there will be wolves about, in ministries , in governments, in corporations. Just because we saw a wolf in the woods doesn’t mean all woods are bad places.
    If we are not listened to, we are to move on. This constant harping on PFM is distracting from the mission. We are all learning to love at a higher level. God will deal with the wolves and the weeds when He sees fit. I trust His judgement……………Right?

  37. Michael says:

    Bonzii,

    I people seeking justice and righteousness are getting you off mission then…you’re on the wrong mission.
    If reading truth troubles you…stop reading.

  38. Michael says:

    Comments laced with Christianeze language demanding faux forgiveness for wolves will be dealt with harshly.
    I’m in no mood for that crap.

  39. Not an attorney says:

    Based on the Testimonies and comments here, I would not be surprised to see a church related major class action wage&hour lawsuit filed in California or the other worker friendly state in the near future. Had one of the aggrieved PFM workers filed suit in California , we Would’ve had a much different outcome than what we have seen in Montana thus far.

    Church leaders need to understand that abuse or injury do not have to happen in order for a worker to file a lawsuit. Several states and particularly California allow judgments and monetary awards to plaintiffs for mere technical violations. These can be very costly when they are filed as class actions and employment attorneys are incentivized to file them because they are entitled to attorney fees paid by the defendant.. Also as church leaders we need to review our employment policies and make sure they comply with state and local laws. Quite often I see way too many small cc churches use the boilerplate bare-bones bylaws from their sending church and use no employee handbooks. These churches think they are just fine when in fact they are out of compliance respective to their state and local employment laws. The objective is not to just be compliant with laws but to do it in order to protect ministry workers and prevent abuse such As that occurred at PFM from happening in the future.

    Again this is not legal advice. If you need legal advice you should seek out a licensed attorney in your state knowledgeable in employment law.

    I’ve shared with Michael off-line that churches need to review their employment and wage and hour policies to make sure they are applying best practices in their organizations. The reality is that if someone is an employee regardless if they are a pastor or not, they likely have workers rights and protections in your state.

  40. Clarity says:

    “Comments laced with Christianeze language demanding faux forgiveness for wolves will be dealt with harshly.
    I’m in no mood for that crap.”

    I truly appreciate that sentiment, Michael. It’s why I continue to come to this blog. Some are so well versed in Christianeze and don’t get how unhelpful it is. It’s a form of self righteousness in my opinion. Thank you for your continued support in exposing ALL of this.

  41. It's healthy to have a voice says:

    Calvary Chapel CCA – Joe Focht, Don McClure, Lloyd Pulley, Randy Cahill and the rest of the CCA counsel promoted CC churches to send our young people to PFM. They need to resign, they obviously can’t see a cult under their watch! It doesn’t take long to be around Mike to see he is a nut! Self appointed men who think they are doing God’s work..but it’s all about your power. No accountability is not a healthy sign in this group.

  42. Bonzii says:

    Michael,
    You have done a good job of pointing out a threat to Christian youth and that problem seems to have been remedied.
    Unfortunately we seem to be in a time of great deception all around the world. People are seeking their own wisdom and forgetting to ask God for wisdom. I do it all the time so I decided to just go back and check out the ministry of Jesus in Matthew. Trying to get a feel for His overall approach to getting through this life and on to the next. I really like the ‘sermon on the mount’ since it was his first teaching and came after he had fasted for a month or more and, after he had dealt with some heavy lies from the father of lies. There is a lot of good stuff in that teaching especially for youth just starting their walk.
    As I have grown older I have seen the wisdom of chapter 7. I used to judge people all the time but then I realized I was just as guilty as some of the people I was judging……letting God do the judging takes all the pressure off me and prevents me from making mistakes that I would later regret. It makes the stress of life lighter in that particular arena , thank God.
    Those youth hurt by the PFM can find a wealth of understanding , wisdom and guidance in those lessons.

  43. Bonzii says:

    not an attorney,
    Jesus gave us a short story about how to deal with bad growth mixed in with good growth. It is called the parable of the weeds.
    Matt. 13 starts at verse 24:
    …..the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master came to him and said, ” Did you not sowed good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds? He said to them, ‘ an enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘ Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said to them, ‘ No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.’ Let both grow together until the harvest and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned but gather the wheat into my barn.’

    Your suggestion of using labor laws in California to attack churches might root out some weeds but it would also destroy a lot of wheat , particularly when the weeders are atheists.
    Be careful of unintended consequences…………..

  44. Michael says:

    Bonzii,

    Paul said we are to judge those in the church.
    The Rozell’s are disqualified and dangerous…and if they have broken the law should be held accountable.

  45. Clarity says:

    Bonzii- this world desperately needs Jesus. The very last thing they need is counterfeit Christians like the Rozells. Satan is using them. Shame on us Christians if we were to sit back and not speak up against them. We are called to judge them. Do you not see that the no talk rule that Calvary Chapel abides by is covering up abuse? This PFM is one instance. It’s rampant in that “non denomination”. I personally know families that asked other Calvary families if they should send their kids to PFM and instead of speaking the “truth in love” they were secretive and fearful to speak up. That’s nonsense. If you saw a building on fire and people in it, would you not warn them? I bet you would. Why is abuse behind closed doors NOT something to speak up about? I say shout if from the rooftops. Protect people and expose abuse. Always. These no talk pastors are complicit.

  46. Sky says:

    Healthy voice
    The Rozelles came to the Calvary I was attending;it seems the pastor was pressured to invite them by some of the CCA members.The Rozelles put on their show and afterwards I spoke with Mike Rozelles.He went on to describe his vision for PFM.It took all of 20 seconds to realize he was very very unstable and was creating an abusive cultic boot camp and he was going to play God and replace the Holy Spirit in these already traumatized lives.
    And CCA seizing authority also playing God,aggressively digs up dirt on anyone who questions this and slanders them!
    These hypocrites on CCA are a disgrace to the name of Christ!
    Step down from your high and lofty perches and stop shitting on the people you profess to serve.Your behavior is sooooo evil and your time is running out.
    Be real men for once in your life.Cowards,phonies,liars go beat your chests on the pastors conference stage and convince yourseleves you are right with God!Please for the sake of Christ’s Name and the well being of His Body. ,get real with yourselves

  47. Bonzii says:

    Clarity,
    ” this world desperately needs Jesus.”
    You are so right. That’s why I have decided to go back over the words He spoke in the gospels to try and get insight into His mind set and his advice about making it through, about overcoming.
    That’s why I don’t like to say I am judging anyone. He said in Matt. 7 “Judge not, that you be not judged.” Although He also said you can judge a tree by its fruit. That’s what an old pastor used to say we were to be , Fruit Inspectors.

    Jesus really was a radical guy. He turned the whole religious system of his day on its head. And He did get pretty upset about false teachers, especially those leading youngsters astray.
    Shepherds have to protect their flock. If they don’t do that they don’t measure up to being “Good ” shepherds . So I believe in our churches we need to be careful and “judge” to some degree who we place in positions of power as not to hurt any of the sheep. Be smart, be gentle…………

  48. Christopher says:

    “On the Mount” was 4+ hours pre-ignite and Ignite 1. There were countless ways that PFM/PFR used us in all manner of ways. All of it completely useless. As a former US Marine, I tended to be called in for “strong discipleship”…. It was all bull. I’m glad to see the protesters fighting against Mudman Burgers.

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