PP 5.0

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  1. Na'amah says:

    Michael,

    I will count myself as blessed and priviledged as being one of your friends you find along the way.

  2. Nonnie says:

    Na’amah, you took the words right from under my fingers! 🙂

    So glad we can gather here together again.

    Michael, do what God has called you to do. Abounding in the work of the Lord knowing your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Cor. 15:58

  3. papias says:

    Glad to have PP back up. It’s the learning that we share with each other that makes this forum different.

    I hope that Xenia makes it back. I enjoy hearing the “different voices” that come to the PP table.

    I hope everyone had a great 4th! 🙂

  4. Tim says:

    “My emphasis here will be on teaching, community, and building bridges to create positive change.”

    Excellent emphasis. I’m looking forward to PP 5.0! 🙂

  5. Bob Sweat says:

    Welcome back Michael!

  6. Jim Jacobson says:

    Michael, much of what you wrote sounds so wonderful, then you post 3 out of 5 links that are completely the opposite. So, it’s cool to promote the controversy as long as you are not personally involved?

  7. Sarah says:

    Blessings on the re-launch. Praying that there will be great things that happen in these rooms of words….

  8. Believe says:

    First, Michael…welcome back…you have a gift and are using your Talent well, IMO.

    Bono said it best, “don’t let the bastards ground you down…”

    Second, Jim J., “promoting controversy…”

    I suggest you skip over Matthew 23 or any other of Jesus our Christ’s “controversial” confrontations with the Pharisees and “Religious Leaders” of that day…or any other Scripture where Paul confronts Peter…or where he calls out Alexander the Coppersmith…or the qualifications of a pastor/elder and the command to “publicly rebuke those who remain in sin so others take warning”…etc etc etc.

    One man’s “controversy” is another man’s “telling it to the Church”…and another man’s following the leading of the Holy Spirit and seeking to bring a measure of accountability and justice (one of God’s Equal Attributes) to the “church” landscape.

  9. Michael says:

    Jim,

    This is a transition period for me and my readers.
    All of those sites had their genesis here in one way of another and their concerns have ben the concerns of many of the readers.
    I think it’s fair to point to them before I go in another direction.
    I trust the Holy Spirit will bring correction to them where necessary and that in the end they will be people and communities that grow into what God intends for them.

  10. eric says:

    Michael,
    You go boy!!!! So glad the PP is back up and running. I found myself checking the bookmark daily anyway in hopes it would pop back up. Cant describe the thrill when it was back where it belonged

  11. Linnea says:

    Michael….I’m so glad you and the PP are back!

    I spent the last week in training with a bunch of ex-special forces guys. I learned elements of combat, movement, weaponry and tactics. One thing that one of the guys said stands out to me and is applicable to PP. He said that doing combat is way different than peacekeeping and that the American military is not trained to do peacekeeping.

    We, as Christians, are trained first to do peacekeeping, then end up in battles. Jesus said…

    Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”

    Where the gospel is concerned, there will be spiritual battle. We need to uphold one another in prayer even as we engage in “peacekeeping”.

  12. BrianD says:

    Michael, blessings on version 5.0. !

  13. ( | o )====::: says:

    5 thumbs up for 5.0!

  14. Jim Jacobson says:

    Michael, honestly, don’t you see the contradiction?
    “Welcome to the new PP 5.0… a new, less controversial version where it’s all about grace and community…. but just in case you missed them,… here are some anti-Calvary websites you can check out…. but I’m not anti-Calvary!”
    And you throw out Lugum.com as a credible read? Really? Check out this pithy thread: http://lugum.com/journey/8/
    Not exactly a bastion of grace there.

  15. Linnea says:

    Jim…are you trying to shut down the 5.0 version? You’re well on your way.

  16. Jim Jacobson says:

    Linnea, not at all. I am making a valid observation.

  17. Michael says:

    Jim,

    These folks are friends and long time participants here.
    They are going to continue to address issues that are important to them and have been important here.
    I think it was appropriate today to tell folks what they are up to.
    If you want to critique my content going forward, thats fine…I am going in a different direction, but I affirm their right to speak their minds.

  18. ( | o )====::: says:

    “So, it’s cool to promote the controversy as long as you are not personally involved?”

    hell yes, as long as the controversy is still being aired and solved somewhere and we can help in some way!

    Believe really needed to launch his own forum to attempt to solve the alleged festering abuse that is taking place in Central California. If he can get the fine people of that community to step up, be courageous and publicly sign their own declaration of independence and bring freedom to the oppressed of that precious church, then report back here from time to time that would be something we all would cheer. Most of us who support Believe in his struggle were hoping he would create his own blog and now that he has done so we’re cheering him on in his attempts to bring normalcy and healing to that situation.

    In my brief few years here I would not characterize this place or people as “anti-calvary”, only the over-emphasis of the doctrinal differences that have led to the division of the Body of Christ 😉 and those of us who have Calvary Chapel as part of our pedigree believe that the only true basis of Christian fellowship is His (Agape) love, which is greater than any differences we possess and without which we have no right to claim ourselves Christians.

    One of the things that makes the Phoenix Preacher community so appealing is that we don’t have to check our brains and opinions at the door when we come to the party

    I think we’re all waiting with baited breath about many controversial things-

    Like the Caltrans-Taliban painting over an american flag mural because they didn’t verify that it wasn’t graffiti…

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/02/BAL31E8VRE.DTL

    http://www.neovenator.com/special/calempsmall.jpg

    Now, baby, that’s controversy!

  19. Jim Jacobson says:

    No Michael, you are not affirming them. By posting those three links you are promoting them. Just like advertising. You choose which links you put up, you cannot then somehow distance yourself from the content of their sites. That is all I am saying, I will drop it and go away.

  20. eric says:

    Michael,

    If it helps get this thing going, I really appreciate your support, but I understand taking the link to our blog down. Looks like some folk want to start over where we left off almost a month ago.

    I will say if you go to the bottom, after all the yellin and screamin over each other is done you will see me and OBS make up and actually see some great discussion. But seriously Jim, out of a month of posts you need to go to the one contentious thread? Did you look at any others or are you that fixated on something from a month ago?

  21. ( | o )====::: says:

    I also think that Michael is excercising his freedom to redefine himself and if any of us wants to champion a cause then it’s up to us to do so without beating this place to death and Michael in the process.

    And now, with that, I’m gonna step away for a healthy breakfast of http://www.chick-fil-a.com chased with a 5 shot vente americano from the first church of the roasted bean http://www.starbucks.com

  22. ( | o )====::: says:

    Sorry, a parting thought,

    “You choose which links you put up, you cannot then somehow distance yourself from the content of their sites.”

    …um, yes he did, by making the statement

    “These folks are friends and long time participants here.
    They are going to continue to address issues that are important to them and have been important here.
    I think it was appropriate today to tell folks what they are up to.
    If you want to critique my content going forward, thats fine…I am going in a different direction, but I affirm their right to speak their minds.”

    I think things have been clearly stated

  23. Michael says:

    Jim,

    Lets get down to brass tacks here.

    You have never liked the PP or me.
    You think it has damaged your friends and I understand that.

    Today is a transition day and I think the links were part of that transition.

    I’m not going to say much more about that, you are entitled to your opinion as well.

  24. Michael says:

    Eric,

    I’m fine…this too will pass.

    You have a lot of talent and a soft but broken heart.

    I trust the Holy Spirit will use you and your gifts to the glory of God.

    It will be a process, just like it is for me and all of us.

    Sometimes the process is messy. 😉

  25. Michael says:

    Grendal,

    Thanks…the idea of redefining ones self on the journey is something you’ve modeled in front of us and I’m deeply grateful for your courage in doing so.

  26. Erunner says:

    Michael, When you closed the doors last month I was very angry. I was angry because a place I was very fond of was seemingly ripped away from me and I had no say about the whole thing.

    It was sad to watch things unfold as far as it concerned Matt and Esther. I hope those wounds will heal on both sides because it hurt watching it unfold.

    I don’t think the shutting down of this blog had to happen though. If people had chosen to take higher ground instead of drawing lines in the sand things could have turned out differently. That’s not how it went down though.

    Has anyone even considered the idea how they conducted themselves during the demise of this blog might have contributed to it?

    Calvary Chapel Pastors aren’t the authority here but neither are they the enemy. Victims aren’t always the voice of reason here but they are not the enemy either. I don’t want to ever feel like I have to choose sides.

    I just believe we can do better. I hope that is what happens.

  27. Michael says:

    Erunner,

    That was as good as it gets…thank you!

    We can do better and we will.

  28. Nomans says:

    I was angry because a place I was very fond of was seemingly ripped away from me and I had no say about the whole thing.

    EBrother, I went through the same emotions.

    I just believe we can do better. I hope that is what happens.

    I am with you.

  29. Michael says:

    Nomans…we’re going to do better and be better…and I’m very glad you are on the journey with me.

    Nomans is still our faithful co-laborer who I hope will write for us as well…hint, hint… 🙂

  30. Nomans says:

    🙂

  31. centorian says:

    Jacobson,
    ” Drop it and go away” Good ideal. You are no better than those whom you criticize.

  32. centorian says:

    Michael,
    Welcome back!! You write well, think deeply, and always engage your heart. I don’t always agree with you, but you definitely have seat at the table and a voice that needs to be heard.

  33. Michael says:

    Thank you, Centy.

    We’ll get past the bumpy opening and see what happens. 😉

  34. eric says:

    I should point out that Lugum isnt just me, its a collaboration of myself and Buster and our focus is more than complaining about the ills of the church. Sometimes we talk about Web Design while we expose corruption

  35. centorian says:

    but do you ever expose corrupt web design?

  36. eric says:

    “but do you ever expose corrupt web design?”

    Nah, I write so Buster can correct it
    http://lugum.com/journey/the-christian-loop/

  37. centorian says:

    8)

  38. Bob Sweat says:

    Centy

    Thanks for telling Jim what I was ready to tell him myself.

  39. Xenia says:

    Hi Papias, thank you, here I am.

  40. Bob Sweat says:

    Jim,

    If you’re still out there, I would agree that things got out-of-hand a few weeks past. While I still don’t understand the full implications of why PP had to shut down, it was obvious that there were things posted that were offensive. If you have an alternative, other than say nothing, let me know. I will be more than happy to communicate with you offline. BTW, I lurked for a few days at SMP and was upset by things that was said there, but its your blog, so I kept my mouth shut, and went away. And please understand that I respect the guys at SMP.

    As I see it, Michael is making a choice to take PP away from some of these controversies, but at the same time recognize that there is some legitimacy to these concerns.

  41. Bob, I’d be happy to dialogue offline.
    Jim@cclakestevens.org

  42. Jeff Stewart says:

    Michael, I am glad to see you back, for what it’s worth I always enjoyed the controversial post’s and comments.

    It is unique to see people interact during times of inflamed emotions……….and as a pastor it benefited me greatly to read people’s hurts with leadership and CC in particular I have never felt threatened by people’s honest expression of pain & anger

    I believe with all my heart that wading thru the various controversies on the PP has made me a better, more caring pastor.

  43. Michael says:

    Jeff,

    We’ve been blessed to have you be a part of this and you remain in our prayers.

    My hope going forward is that we begin to deal with those things that are common to us and learn how to live together in a fallen world…while hanging on to and sharing our faith.

    Much love to you and yours.

  44. Jim Jacobson says:

    Michael, did you block my IP address?

  45. Bob Sweat says:

    Jim,

    UGM

  46. Bob Sweat says:

    Jeff

    Thank you for the post.

  47. Jeff Stewart says:

    Michael, I understand and of course i want you to do whatever Jesus is leading you to do……I just wanted you to know that I benefitted from some of the worst of it 🙂

    Bob, thanks

  48. Ike says:

    Thanks for keeping it real and being real Michael. Glad your back!

  49. Another Voice says:

    It’s your blog and your life Michael. I have tried to interact at Believe’s new blog in the ‘About the Benjamins’ entry.

    In my opinion, you will regret that connection going forward.

    Peace.

  50. Michael says:

    AV,

    Believe is responsible for his content and how he handles what will undoubtedly be difficult situations.

    I am responsible for the PP… and only the PP.

    I encourage folks to pray for him…I’ve been in those shoes and it’s overwhelming…then you have to grow while handling the traffic.

    He has great passion and gifting and I’m trusting God will take care of the rough edges.

    My guess is that right about now he knows this ain’t as easy as it looks… 🙂

  51. Another Voice says:

    I am responsible for the PP
    ————————————————
    My point exactly brother. By “that connection” I meant your link and reference above – nothing more.

    Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

  52. Michael says:

    AV,

    You’re one of my favorite people here…you’ll have to do better than that to offend me. 😉

    I hear your heart…I do.

  53. Believe says:

    AV, keep interacting “over there”…I believe (hope) you are one of the good guys…you certainly seem to be from my interaction with you on here.

    Ignoring the problem that exists for CC doesn’t make it go away.

    “Josh” is entitled to his opinion. Me deleting his entire post does nothing more than silence his opinion, his voice. I moderated the specific claim he made.

    There are some good people reading and participating over there…be a pastor and minister to some of them…they’ve been hurt badly. I am not a pastor…I don’t possess the “gift” of helping people in the “healing” process. I am what I am…I have the gifts I have…and I’m doing what I’m doing with the Talent (Parable Talent) I’ve been given.

  54. eric says:

    Thank god, I was feeling like a leper being the only one people didnt like

  55. London says:

    Eric-
    I like ya and that’s all that really matters anyway :mrgreen:

  56. Michael says:

    Everybody likes Eric… 🙂

  57. eric says:

    AHHHH, group hug 😉

  58. centorian says:

    Jef Stewart said:
    “It is unique to see people interact during times of inflamed emotions……….and as a pastor it benefited me greatly to read people’s hurts with leadership and CC in particular I have never felt threatened by people’s honest expression of pain & anger”

    I agree. As a pastor, I’m lied to all the time. In most church enviroments,people are rarely honest about what they feel, much of the time there is too much on the line to risk. Having a place where people can express themselves, rightly or wrongly is invaluable to honing our skills needed to truly care for people. And I thankful to everyone who is truly honest.

  59. Michael says:

    Centy,

    With this crowd I don’t think it ever can be otherwise.

    Hope you’re well…

  60. Bob Sweat says:

    Centy

    I never lie to you. 😉

  61. victorious says:

    MB: Your 9:59 PM:

    I think Alex will need wisdom and encouragement and prayer and yes, he runs a great risk. So did those who stormed the beaches of Normandy. However, I think that he will take back lives and destroy strongholds of the enemy within the camp of Christ that some shepherds gave up and some still continue to yield to the enemy. And Alex will grow in wisdom and stature with God and men in the process.

    And he will pay a price. But Christ will more than compensate.

  62. eric says:

    I think he would do well to dump the Stryper color scheme…think ill email him now and suggest that

  63. centorian says:

    I’m doing ok. thanks.

    I wonder if those who take such issue with what has happened here can’t handle anyone rocking the boat; that the unhappy, wounded, beaten, people who call themselves christians are just too damn unpleasant to deal with as the cut across the grain of the staple of American evangelicalism. We church people, we like things nice and tidy, and unhappy christians are a threat to us. And we believe those with happy faces, those powerful people who give us hope that we can one day rise above the mediocrity of our routine, dull, daily existence. Obviously, there is great hope from them and we cannot have it disturbed. I think it was Marx whor said that religion is the opiate of the masses. I fear that he may have been more accurate than I’m comfortable with.

    Psa 121:1,2 A Song of Ascents. I will lift up my eyes to the hills– From whence comes my help? My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth.

  64. centorian says:

    nice gravatar Bob! lol!!!

  65. Another Voice says:

    Believe, I will answer you here where you addressed me, but I will not use more of Michael’s website for this conversation – nor Michael will I take it to other threads in the future.

    I appreciate your desire to moderate specific accusations, but I wish you would see that tolerating gross bigotry under the umbrella of ‘freedom of opinion’ is arguably just as bad. Surely as a Christian you will not let stand similar bigotry against blacks, hispanics, gays, liberals, conservatives, under the excuse of “that’s his entitled opinion”. Why then allow it against your brothers in Christ? Especially since you KNOW it is not true. Josh was not giving an opinion on the Moses Model. Read his words again and then personalize them towards me, Rolph, Oden, DMW, Hopkins, Sellls, Centurion etc.

    Josh will not be an isolated instance. Especially given your blog name and the popularity it will likely receive quickly.

    Your first words as to your mission are that your site is not a place for healing. You advise people to go elsewhere for that. Thus, your challenge to me to come to your site and try to minister to those who are hurting is confusing indeed. And as long as the host, you, allows bigotry to exist, there can be no ministry taking place – at least by anyone from CC.

    How (and why) does a black person respond to someone who claims all blacks are welfare cheats and crackheads. How do I, or anyone, respond to:
    ————-
    They’re a bunch of immature little children without even the common restraint, courtesy, and love that most unbelievers have

    They don’t care one bit about the congregation (and there’s no actual church members, so these guys do whatever they please in the name of the Lord and nobody can say or do anything, just like in a cult)

    The Calvary franchise is a pseudo-church movement where self-appointed pastor-CEOs jump into the pulpit and run the show however it seems right in their own eyes, for their own gain
    —————
    As I said before Believe, Josh’s is the first of what will be many, MANY such posts – so you will set the tone early, and I hope you will set it in a Christ-honoring fashion.

    And note, already my simple remarks are being interpreted at your site as a call for you to be silent, or as a defense of the Moses Model, or (worse) even a defense of Grenier. That is why I will not bother further…Unless possibly the moderator chooses to moderate.

  66. Nomans says:

    Bob is pulling my heartstrings with his new gravatar :mrgreen:

  67. Believe says:

    AV, thank you for your input. I have edited the part about what the site is about…you bring attention to something I needed to clarify and didn’t articulate well.

    IMO, if I were a CC pastor, and had a pastor’s heart, I wouldn’t strain about people who have obviously been hurt by a CC pastor and situation venting their “bigotry” (in your opinion…I don’t agree that it is bigotry…I think that comparison is a stretch, IMO)…rather I’d err on the side of grace with them…and try to get at why they have such a strong opinion and why they have been so hurt. Then, I’d do whatever was in my power as a CC pastor to try and address the serious issues that exist in the Movement…instead of saying you really can’t do anything other than at your own church.

    You CC pastors could do something. You find all kinds of ways to unite and do something outside your church when it is a big crusade or conference or some other event that brings in people and generates money…or for the sincere…gets the Gospel message out and points people to Christ.

    You can ignore the problems…or you can embrace them. I choose to embrace them…and extend grace to the people like Josh (which is what I believe Christ would do…Josh represents a “tax collector”, a “sinner”, a regular Joe Christian)…while the CC glitteratti and CC pastors represent the Religious Establishment…and we know how Jesus our Christ handled that group vs. the Josh’s of that day.

  68. Believe says:

    Nomans…that Gravatar of Bob’s isn’t who I think it is….is it? 😆

  69. Another Voice says:

    IMO, if I were a CC pastor, and had a pastor’s heart, I wouldn’t strain about people who have obviously been hurt by a CC pastor and situation venting their “bigotry”
    —————————————————
    My pastor’s heart is directed towards you Believe.

    One day you will see that I pray….

    Since you are going down this road, you should recognize there is a LOT of hate towards CC from people who have never even been in one, and certainly have never been hurt by one. I know many personally, not to mention what is out there on the web, I went to seminary with more than a few such individuals. They are bigots in the proper sense of the word, being against our beliefs, and thus rejoice in the movement’s scandals, while turning a blind eye to the scandals within their own denominations (of which no group is free).

    That is why I said it is far better to read a specific accusation where the poster says I attended CC so and so and Pastor so and so did XYZ to me, than posts like Josh. Maybe Josh was hurt too. I am not making that determination. I will say he sounds no different than one of those folks I mention above.

    Don’t assume all your future, general anti-CC posts are from those who were hurt by a CC pastor. That is naive to do so. A lot of it will be piling on..again to the extent you allow it.

    If you hope to bring justice and accountability with your blog, you have to distinguish between the two. If you want a place where people can just vent (ahem) ‘express their opinions’ then that is what you will get. I don’t see how you get both though…

  70. Believe says:

    AV, thanks for that input. I hadn’t considered things from that angle…nor that there may be those who haven’t been hurt by a CC but are rather jumping on the bandwagon with their own agenda. I will give what you’ve posted some thought and see if I can find a balance.

    Where I’m at today, I will probably continue to err on the side of the victims (even if a few of the Bandwagon guys slip through the cracks) as I’ve personally experienced an extreme difficulty in having a voice against a Bad Guy within CC and the extreme lopsidedness in the structure (regarding victims bringing an accusation against a CC pastor).

  71. Kevin H says:

    I wonder what PP 37.0 will look like? 🙂

  72. Captain Kevin says:

    Hi Kevin H, I’m the “other” Kevin around here. Nice to have you. After having experienced a couple of these PP resurrections, I can only hope that 5.0 is the last. I don’t think my heart can take another close-down.

  73. Captain Kevin says:

    Concerning Bob’s gravatar, that actually is Bob in the picture. His plastic surgeon was quoted as saying, “Well, I’ve never been asked to make someone look like Neil Diamond before, but if that’s what you want…”

  74. Believe says:

    …Captain K…are you sure it isn’t David Copperfield? 😆

  75. Kevin H says:

    Captain Kevin, I believe I should be the “other Kevin” since you have been here long before me. Maybe I can be the First Mate.

    And I don’t want to see PP 37.0 either. It’s just curiosity to wonder if this place has more lives than a cat.

  76. Bob Sweat says:

    Captain 😆

  77. Bob Sweat says:

    Centy 😉

  78. Captain Kevin says:

    My version of the song: “Shilo, when I was young, I used to…uh…er…I used to…um…ah hell, I can’t remember when I was young.”

  79. Captain Kevin says:

    Kevin H, you’re very kind. However, I reserve the title of First Mate for my wife. Let me check the crew roster and see what positions are left.

  80. Captain Kevin says:

    OK Kevin H, here’s what I’ve got for you to choose from:
    Landlubber
    Scallywag
    Bilge Rat
    Scurvy Dog
    Shark Bait
    Whale Blubber
    Powder Monkey
    Pond Scum.

    Take yer pick! 😉

  81. Kevin H says:

    Don’t know much about boating but somehow I’ve got the notion that not many of these positions are too glamorous. 🙂

    Maybe if you first give me the chance to read “The Art of Dying”, I could then be the Shark Bait.

  82. TonyP. says:

    BTW Michael,

    Welcome back yet again!! Huzzah!!!
    Glad I decided to peek in on ya again…..

  83. Another Voice says:

    Captain Kevin, I just had a Spongebob moment and heard Mr. Krabs in my head in reading that list!

  84. puzzletop says:

    I’m glad you’re back

  1. July 19, 2010

    […] current incarnation, Michael says the emphasis of Phoenix Preacher (also referred to as PP) “will be on teaching, community, and building bridges to create positive change” and “to facilitate things that look like […]

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