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149 Responses

  1. Paige says:

    LOL Amen…… We belong to the ‘iClan” as well…. but have PCs, too, just in case.

  2. EricL says:

    Application: check with the community before you try updating your iFaith, instead of just trusting the experts. The community just might mention some problems with what the experts want you to do.

    That is why we are encouraged to have a weFaith instead of just an iFaith.

  3. I have never owned an Apple product. I always assumed they were just a flash in the pan.

  4. dswoager says:

    Choosing not to see it as a sign that I am more prepared to go on a tech rant than to make a faith application.

  5. Alexander says:

    Yes, for His goodnes and mercy endures forever.

  6. Linda Pappas says:

    “There is only one place you can put your faith where you won’t be.”

    Not sure if you meant to say this in this way. As it stands, the place would to be put my faith in those things that leads to eternal damnation.

  7. Michael says:

    Linda,

    I have no idea what you mean.

    It’s a simple parable about having faith in God alone and not in the things of the world.

    Hardly advocating faith in things that lead to damnation…

  8. dswoager says:

    I thought that read awkwardly as well… should there be a “disappointed” at the end?

  9. dswoager says:

    Oh never mind, it referes back to the feeling ashamed…. now I feel ashamed at my reading skills.

  10. covered says:

    Great word! I don’t don’t a word of your story but I’m clinging to Jesus and my iPad & iPhone 🙂

  11. Linda Pappas says:

    LOL

    Why would I put my faith in a place where I will not be.

    I understand what you were leading up to–just threw me off in the last line, so I noted it.

    “Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
    Look full in His wonderful face,
    And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
    In the light of His glory and grace.”

    http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/Turn_Your_Eyes_upon_Jesus/

  12. Jim says:

    Amen on the “one place”.

    We went mac in 2005 or 6 when my dell died, and I took it apart and found the offending sloppy solder. I borrowed my son’s macbook for 30 minutes and that was that. Once you go mac, you never go back.

    I have a gen 1 iPad and my wife has an iPad air. I bought an iPhone in 2010, and was paying for data that I never used, so I pulled the sim and placed it in my 2006 motorola razr flip phone. The iPhone is a great iPod. We used those phones until November, when I heard that ATT had bought cricket. 2.5G of data, unlimited talk/text for $35 (total) per month on att’s network. We have android phones, which means nothing because we only talk and text.

    I own an iOS app development company 🙂

  13. london says:

    My own application is…don’t put the upgrade on my stuff now.

  14. papiaslogia says:

    That’s kind of a bummer. I always have heard that Apple’s support of their product line was one of their strengths and a reason for customers rabid support.

    Maybe they are changing their business model? Or maybe they figured, like Best Buy did, that if some customers start costing them too much money for support, they would rather drop them. Well, maybe not drop them per se, but make it so hard that the customer takes their business elsewhere.

    If this is true, then there could be an after market for Apple support? Maybe people would pay someone to fix their Apple products if Apple is reluctant?

    I know that wasn’t your “point” Michael. We do need to watch where we place our faith and set our expectations accordingly.

  15. papiaslogia says:

    Follow the upgrade advice from a Microsoft customer – don’t be the first one on your street to upgrade. Let the over-achievers upgrade their systems in the first week, and if you hear about issues with the upgrade, then put it off as long as possible.

    Unless its a security patch. Always upgrade those….. 😉

  16. Babylon's Dread says:

    Seriously

    How could you trust an organization whose symbol is the “fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?”

    😉

  17. Eric says:

    This is a common problem. It suggests you get the latest iOS version without checking to see whether your particular device is capable of running it. Apple have normally set the benchmark for user-friendly software that works well, but this particular form of planned obsolescence is the deal-breaker for many. I will probably leave my phone on the iOS version it’s got, because I don’t know whether the new version will run.

  18. Surfer51 says:

    Been a windows guy since dos 3.0. Always built my own rigs.

    When you first purchased an iPad with glowing review I decided it was time to test the waters.

    I and my wife got iPads. I was amazed to see that they were like my iPod, just a bigger version.
    I never used my AT&T android Samsung phone to get on the net because it was so painfully slow to bring up webstes.

    Then one day we decided to check out the iPhone and take the plunge.
    I was once again amazed to see that they were like my iPod.

    I started to catch on that everything Apple was integrated. I could answer my phone from my iPad or do texting from either my phone or my iPad.

    The Internet on my iPhone blazed through T-Mobile!

    My wife frisbeed one of the iPads, I won’t go into details, LOL.

    The thing shattered. Apple replaced it, no questions asked since, at Michaels wise advice we had purchased the insurance.

    I knew better than to update any of this stuff as an early adopter because of my Microsoft experience.

    Michael you and a few others have dropped through the cracks. Make noise on the net and Apple will usually respond.

    Continue to post about your apple experience, they will find you. (Smile).

    Ps
    You are why we went Apple dude!

  19. Surfer51 says:

    My wife just corrected me. Our androids were not with AT&T. They were with T-Mobile. The iPhone’s scream on the net in comparison to the androids

  20. Captain Xthian says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHZvrY2iVmc

    This fellow has an interesting opinion on Apple:

  21. Linnea says:

    I have not upgraded to the new iOS because of the bad press. From Apple maps to iOS 8.0.1…Apple has gone downhill. I still love the MAC operating system, however!

  22. Alex says:

    Apple represents all that is Wrong with our Current System…and talk about duplicitous hypocrites…though I use their product so count me a hypocrite as well (holding my nose using their product).

    Apple beast the Social Justice drum with one hand while dodging paying US taxes and offshoring everything they can to kids in China who get paid peanuts to assemble their high margin iPhones and iPads etc.

    Apple has one of the largest Economies of the World…as a single Company. They can afford to build the factories here, they can afford to pay living wages…they don’t. They are greedy Wall Street pigs who then support Socially Liberal causes and preach to the rest of us Middle Class that we need to give up our money and pay more taxes to support the poor and the Democrat Social Programs.

    F you Apple you hypocrites. Built your factories here, pay your Slaves a living wage and take your own advice before preaching to the rest of us about Social Justice.

    I despise Apple…and Wal-Mart for that matter.

  23. covered says:

    Alex, you need to learn to quit beating around the bush and start speaking your mind 🙂

  24. Alex says:

    Covered, LOL 🙂

  25. The Dude says:

    Alex
    It’s not just Apple and Walmart…. Most of corporate America is transnational.

  26. Alex says:

    Dude, agreed, it’s our Current System and it is killing the Middle Class.

    Apple ticks me off b/c they are such hypocrites and push a Democrat Social Justice Agenda…but do the opposite.

  27. The Dude says:

    Alex
    Most of corporate America are political whores. They have the Democrats and Republicans bought and paid for.Bro follow the money trail.I have no faith what so ever in those people in Washington.

  28. Alex says:

    Dude, agreed. Both parties sold out the Middle Class long ago. NAFTA, Globalization, the Walmart-ization of ‘Merica.

    Now Obama’s Amnesty will do us in. 5 Million eager low-wage workers to feed the low-wage Big Corp. machine and keep wage pressure low. Mr. Middle Class…if you don’t like the low wages…Juan Doe will be happy to take your job and do the work.

  29. Alex says:

    The republicans are overt about it…the democrats try to act like Populists when they are campaigning…but throw the working man and Middle Class right under the Wall Street/Big Corp. bus once they’re in.

  30. so, here’s the thing,

    its important to never fall in love with digital technology
    because it evolves
    like my antique Palm Pilot

    it’s all fun while it lasts
    ’til it changes

    which is why one must always keep
    an unlined sketchpad
    a 4b pencil with an eraser
    a sharpener that doesn’t require batteries

    yeah, retro endures

    signed, an ex Apple employee

  31. Steve Wright says:

    It’s one thing for a company to use overseas manufacturing to make their products competitive. Apple however, has about 180 billion or so dollars in cash, but most of it is overseas. So rather than bring that money home and pay taxes on it, they actually sell bonds to raise spending cash for the company. They started around 2103, and announced another multi-billion dollar offering this week.

    Interest rates are dirt cheap so they can pay far less to a bondholder than the tax they would pay to the USA.

    How ludicrous to think of a 180 billion dollar cash holder as “needing” to raise money by selling debt. But it sure shows the lengths that anyone who knows how to will go to reduce their tax burden…..yet, everytime taxes are discussed in D.C. the assumption is that people will just act like robots and not change their behaviors to reduce their tax bill if it is raised.

  32. This is funny that it is so similar to those who blame pastors for the troubles with the church instead of looking to the pews as the source of the problem,.

    Apple is not the problem – Walmart is not the problem – people wanting $500 60″ plasma TVs are the problem

  33. Nonnie says:

    The Dude’s number 27 is exactly my sentiments, as well.

  34. Jim says:

    “Now Obama’s Amnesty will do us in.”

    This is crazy talk. While his actions are illegal and should be defunded, congress should pass similar legislation. The sky has always been falling because of “those foreigners coming here”.

  35. Bob says:

    Why is wanting a $500 60″ TV bad?

    I remember When saw a flat screen TV the first time, it was $12,000.00. Yes that’s the correct number.

    Yes I would rather have good old USA people employed building this stuff, and like the auto industry, it will eventually happen. What concerns me more is the demand to make top wages by people who would rather spend their time in front of the 60″ TV playing 1st person shooter games than disciplining themselves through education.

    None of us have a right to receive, but we all have the right to pursue.

    If anyone ever thought Apple was some sort of utopia they purposefully ignored all the books, articles and media over the years which show cased Jobs. He was both famous for his brilliance and infamous for his cold hearted treatment of others. They loved and feared him. Maybe he believed in the Moses model.

  36. “Why is wanting a $500 60″ TV bad?”

    Nothing except it must be manufactured by slaves.

    I think Apple should do a cost analysis (I am sure they have) of what it would cost and what they would need to charge for all of their products if everything from start to finish including all of their tax liabilities, and say “look to do this All American style your $400 iPad would now cost you $800. So, what we will do is for the next 2 yrs raise all the prices to the All American price and if unit sale remain the same we will move the whole operation back to America, build factories and pay Auto Worker’s union wages.”

    Does anyone really believe that even a “true blue” Tea Party American is going to buy Apple products in that time period? Heck no – Hello Samsung.

  37. Bob says:

    There’s more to the equation than just total $ cost of why the electronics are manufactured overseas.

    Years ago there was an article (WSJ) on why a manufacturer had moved its clothing off shore. There were even cost comparisons to show the cost was only marginally higher and it came down to simply the difference in hassles between the us and foreign manufacturing.

    Take Uber rides for example. The cab companies are complaining to and in Europe some countries are getting involved to stop this evil service banned or restricted. Why? People I know who use Uber love it because the vehicles are clean, the drivers are prompt and courteous and it cost less.

    In the USA most major corps are now outsourcing service which used to be in-house union run. Again Why? Less hassle and no direct $ investment, even when the outsourcing costs more than the in-house.

    MLD, you might be correct these products would cost more if made in the USA. Interestingly Apple, Samsung and the likes do not charge less for their products in the very countries they are made. The truth is they often charge more.

    The global economic war isn’t so simple and like the famous debates about religion here on PP there isn’t one correct answer.

    BTW MLD, Samsung makes a number of parts for the Apple products.

  38. dswoager says:

    “its important to never fall in love with digital technology
    because it evolves
    like my antique Palm Pilot”

    I would normally agree with this, but over the last decade I think it has become at least a little less true.

    For the first time in ages I upgraded my phone for a reason other than it becoming completely obsolete (my wife broke hers and I figured what the heck I’ll get one too).

    I still regularly use a laptop that I originally bought eight years ago, and the one previous to that was more worn and torn than obsolete.

    Most of what I have seen for new tech is usually just adding bells and whistles that sound neat, but we never really asked for.

    Being obsolete is more about branding than an actual need to upgrade.

  39. Nonnie says:

    Bob, I lived in Manila and ministered to the urban poor. We had women who worked in those Multinational clothing sweat shops coming to us for medical help because the skin was being burned off their hands from the chemicals they had to touch, with no protection. Whenever I see clothing manufactured in 3rd world countries, I cringe over what the poor workers are going through.

  40. Bob, I think a choice of which automobile (taxi or Uber) is a bit different than having people in some Latin American countries working for pennies on the dollar and in dangerous unsupervised conditions.

  41. Would we let any Tom, Dick or Harry who owns his own Piper Cub to start flying commercially with no more regulation than Uber? No safety checks, no flight plans, just pick up passengers and swipe their credit cards in flight? Landings and take off? Well, just when they show up and can find their own air space between incoming 747s.

  42. Surfer51 says:

    Jim @34
    If Obama’s actions are not legal , wondering what were president Regan’s in his 1986 amnesty?

  43. Jim says:

    Surfer,

    You won’t find me defending Reagan. Please present the argument for the legality of Obama’s action. My argument is simple. The legislative branch creates laws.

  44. Michael says:

    I learned the hard way that immigration is the one thing that is impossible to have any sort of reasoned discussion about here…and anywhere else, for that matter.

    I have no desire to moderate a war today.

  45. Bob says:

    The issue of sweat shops and poor working conditions are an issue and should never be ignored. My response is about the economics and is it really that much more expensive to manufacture in the USA as MLD claimed.

    The reason why there is less hassle with working in these foreign countries is because of things which allow the sweatshops to happen. Now how in all of our stuff do you prevent such things from happening.

    Go to our grocery stores and see how many products come from foreign lands, you might be surprised. Oh and those farm workers in Chile, Peru, and soon Cuba, how do they compare?

    It’s easy talk and write about our values, but how many will actually not ever, and I mean ever, shop at Wal Mart? I hate the place and yet now and then I stop in there and buy stuff, it is becoming more rare however.

    Oh and there are many who would allow any body with an airplane fly us. The FAA does check them, right?

    OK how about flying on a Malaysian sponsored airline today?

    People’s pockets talk louder than their hearts.

  46. Bob says:

    Did I forget to add;

    “Don’t burden me with the Law!”
    “I’m free and God’s grace covers my sins!”

    Thank Him there is grace, when we shop at Wal Mart.

  47. Bob says:

    MLD:

    “I think a choice of which automobile (taxi or Uber) is a bit different than having people…”

    Why?

    When you get in a Taxi that is certified by the city it has met some minimum safety standards for the car and driver. But Uber generally leaves it up to the driver. Of course so far it is working well and providing opportunity for those who don’t have the resources to go through all the red tape to start the own commercial service.

    It’s a free world, why would one want to stop people from making a living?

  48. Bob,
    “Of course so far it is working well and providing opportunity for those who don’t have the resources to go through all the red tape to start the own commercial service. ”

    So can I cook a bunch of food and set up a table outside of a restaurant and sell it with no “red tape” (licenses, health department certification – no listing of ingredients etc) because I don’t have the resources to start a real business?

  49. Michael says:

    These issues are too complex and too difficult to work through in sound bites or blog quips.

    My personal views are passionate and lead to vast amounts of hate mail and prayers for my demise.

    The best one can do at this point is live as closely as possible to ones own ethics and let the brawls take their natural course.

  50. Bob says:

    MLD:

    Michal is right and that is where I was going but you don’t seem to get that.

    We are all a bunch of hypocrites, we want the cheap prices, the freedoms, but often not the responsibility of our actions.

    Oh and in SOCAL I’ve seen those food trucks. Do they fit into your restaurant idea?

    But I’m free!

    Grace is all I need!

    So do you agree with Uber? Hey, why don’t we start an Uber food service. In this idea we’ll sign up people who love to cook and want to make some money at it. From our app you will be able order food from people who have never been reviewed or tested by the local health services.

  51. Bob says:

    Oh I forgot to mention; our app will use and Uber driver to deliver the food. He or she has to be a lot better than those kids who deliver pizza in their mufflerless Hondas.

  52. Michael says:

    “But I’m free!

    Grace is all I need!”

    Why do you keep repeating this mantra?

  53. Bob says:

    Michael:

    Sarcasm.

    I’m surprised you don’t get it.

  54. Bob says:

    When I copy music, because I can, I am stealing from the maker of that music.

    Does grace allow me to steal from him or her and is that my freedom?

    If I sign up with Uber and avoid all the red tape, is that right?

    Just because some things are legal does it make them right in the eyes of the one who gives us grace?

  55. Michael says:

    Bob,

    The only thing I’m getting is annoyed.

    No one preaches grace any stronger than I do, but that doesn’t mean I preach license.

    There is grace to cover…but that does not mean that sin will be without consequence on an earthly level.

  56. Bob says:

    The mind of the world says:

    “I’m free!”
    “Grace is all I need!”

    Paul taught:

    “Have this attitude in yourselves…”

    That is the One whom I would like to know and be like, “who emptied Himself…”

    But my worldly side wants a cheap TV.

  57. Bob says:

    Michael:

    You get annoyed easily at times.

    You teach grace from the Calvinistic/Reformed position, but I ask the question in my sarcasm about easy grace. Why would you get annoyed?

    Is grace to be treated as easy and greasy?
    Never!

    IT IS A PRECIOUS GIFT FROM GOD!

    Yes I yelled that!

    So why do so many live as if their “free gift of grace” means they can live in damned way they please?

    Answer that!

  58. Michael says:

    Bob,

    To be blunt, I think this is a straw man argument that I’m bone weary of.

    If a believer believes that because of grace he can live “any damn way he pleases” he’s partially correct.
    We are saved by grace through faith and not by works.
    However, once saved…the Father disciplines His children.
    There will be consequences if ‘living any damn way we please” isn’t pleasing to God.

    Grace and discipline are both part of the sanctification process.

  59. Bob,
    “Michal is right and that is where I was going but you don’t seem to get that. We are all a bunch of hypocrites, we want the cheap prices, the freedoms, but often not the responsibility of our actions.”

    How can you say I don’t get it? I said it first in my #32 – “Apple is not the problem – Walmart is not the problem – people wanting $500 60″ plasma TVs are the problem”

    Just like the church problems are really the problem of lazy, hypocritical, “tickle my ears” parishoners – so too the problem is not corp America … they just feed the greed.

  60. Bob says:

    Michael:

    So how do you teach that or do you just teach grace and let others figure out the consequences?

    If you are teaching, as the text instructs, the equipping of the saints so they will come to the full knowledge of Him then you have to teach the full truth of the Gospel and that is living under His grace.

    So how do you do that or is teaching grace and there are consequences sufficient?

    I’m sorry you get bored, but that is the job of the teacher and preacher.

  61. and yes the food trucks are a problem … not when they go from factory or workplace to actory or workplace – but when they do encroach on the restaurants who paid full freight..

  62. Bob says:

    MLD:

    I blame Corporate America, and the church BTW, because they do prey on our selfishness and desires. Just look at the commercials from some of the fast food chains, nothing good there.

    But in the end I blame me, I make the choice to buy this stuff.

    BTW sorry if I missed your sarcasm.

  63. “…they do prey on our selfishness and desires.”

    Oh bull – you are like the guy who says “if the girls didn’t dress that way, I could keep my mind out of the gutter.” This is laughable – all the women could be dressed in burkas and us guys would still be trying to figure out what she looks like underneath.

    Corp America delivers what is demanded. You demand it, they build it. Remember, I don’t own an iPad – I don’t own a tablet of any kind – I can’t be enticed.

  64. Michael says:

    Bob,

    Thanks for telling me what my job is…never would have figured that out after twenty years of teaching.
    I teach chapter by chapter, book by book.
    So, I’m in Romans now…and it clearly teaches the incredible grace of God like no other book.
    It then teaches us how to respond to that grace and it does so without minimizing either the wondrous good news or the expected response to it.

    My job is to teach it all, and I do.

  65. Linda Pappas says:

    Relating to what you are saying Bob,

    Once a friend told me and he was correct: “Linda, adultery is not illegal.”

    Several people (high/low) have told me, if they are Christians, they will not be held to an account because, God’s grace and forgiveness covers even the vilest of sins.

    God’s Word says:

    http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Adultery/

  66. Bob, you are old enough – remember the Edsel – corp America could push that on the public or entice people’s greed and desires – so they came up with what people wanted … the Mustang!! 🙂

  67. Michael says:

    God’s grace does cover the vilest of sins.

    It doesn’t cover earthly consequences , nor do we understand what the loss of eternal rewards means.

    We will be held to account even for our words…so our actions will be judged as well.

    That doesn’t have to be a judgment of salvation…otherwise we would all be damned.

  68. Linda Pappas says:

    For those who repent, yes—for those who do not—Nope. Not even.

  69. Steve Wright says:

    The Walmart villain discussion always amazes me because nobody ever mentions Starbucks in contrast. The only people I hear throw Starbucks shopping for criticism seem to be in the financial community advisor space when talking about people getting out of debt or saving more. But the moral guilt angle does not often accompany it.

    I know a few people at our church that work registers or stock at Walmart or Target to support families – they aren’t typically chic 20-somethings either that seem to be the overwhelming number of Starbucks employees.

    I know most of our church shops at Walmart or Target in order to make ends meet (and I assume to allow a little to be given to the work of the Lord as well on Sundays).

    I don’t know how the Lord evaluates the shopping habits of American Christians, but my initial guess is that a $5-10 a day Starbucks routine won’t hold up as well with the mother of five kids who isn’t convicted about buying foreign-made goods at Walmart so she can also pay the rent that month.

  70. Michael says:

    Linda,

    So…if I die with any unrepented sin, I go to hell?

    Then there is no grace and we all are consigned to the pit.

    That is works based righteousness…remember that if you break one part of the law, you break it all.

    “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”
    (James 2:10 ESV)

  71. Linda Pappas says:

    1 Cor. Chapter 6:

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    God will not be mocked. No matter how much one would like to take advantage of His grace and the shed blood of Jesus.

  72. Michael says:

    Unless one has reached the state of sinless perfection they are as dependent on the grace of God as the adulterer or murderer.

  73. Bob says:

    Michael:

    So we are not writing by each other, yes we would all be damned.

    But the point of Loving God and receiving his grace is living it out in spite of our failures.

    I had a good Christian brother who lived it out and yet felt we shouldn’t teach living out because it might offend those who couldn’t.

    Now that is bull, in the word of MLD.

  74. Bob says:

    “Unless one has reached the state of sinless perfection they are as dependent on the grace of God as the adulterer or murderer.”

    And that is a duh.

    But Paul addresses the issue of living it out in spite.

    MLD:

    OK we should legalize all the drugs because you won’t use them. Just let corp American manage them for those who are weak and want them?

    Dude are you sure you read and understand the gospel?

  75. Michael says:

    Linda,

    Who are the “unrighteous”?

    Those who have refused the righteousness of Christ.

    In other words, unbelievers.

    The rest of the verse…

    “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
    (1 Corinthians 6:11 ESV)

  76. Linda Pappas says:

    God knows if a person’s heart is right and whether, or not what sins they may be have committed is that of a repentant and God fearing soul. He also knows if a person heart is such where they are taking advantage of His grace and thus, living as one who truly has not repented but thought they had bought a ticket to be with Him. Each person knows this as well.

    Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for He is Holy and will not mocked.

  77. Michael says:

    Bob,

    I already said I teach “living it out”.

    None of us live it out perfectly, so ALL of us are guilty of breaking the WHOLE law everyday.

    We get better because of grace, not by threats of damnation.

  78. Bob says:

    Steve:

    The issue isn’t whether or not Wal Mart is evil and drink Starbucks isn’t.

    Wal Mart probably has destroyed more small business while Starbucks has made coffee drinking and the small coffee shop popular around the whole world.

    Again that isn’t the issue it’s the conscience of those who love God and others. where do we as individuals draw the line. MLD doesn’t buy an iPad and other don’t buy shirts.

    I personally shop locally for my hobbies from the small local business, but that is getting harder and harder to do. I also try to support the members of my faith circle.

    It’s hard, often difficult but what things will differentiate those who Love God from those who don’t? How smoky is our mirror?

  79. Linda Pappas says:

    Nope, the unrighteous are those who sows to the flesh, and make a mockery of God’s grace.

  80. Bob says:

    Michael:

    “We get better because of grace, not by threats of damnation.”

    I do like this one!

    Why can’t we ask people of faith, “Do you love Him?”

    Jesus asked Peter that question?

  81. Bob says:

    Got to go.

    Thanks MLD, Michael, and Linda.

    You all are blessed!

  82. Michael says:

    “Nope, the unrighteous are those who sows to the flesh, and make a mockery of God’s grace.”

    Then we are all unrighteous and will be damned because we all are guilty of breaking the whole law by omission and commission.

    Righteousness is “credited” not earned.

    Paul says that if you think you can earn it, then Christ is of no value to you.

    You either rest on His work or count on your own.

  83. Jim says:

    I’m glad I backed off from executive orders/immigration so that no one would argue today 🙂

  84. Michael says:

    Jim,

    You have a point. 🙂

    I’m just hyper sensitive about the other issue…what happened during that time was the most painful thing I’ve ever gone through on the blog.

  85. Steve Wright says:

    I co-owned and operated a tiny…super-small, independent insurance agency that had absolutely no business (pun intended) in being allowed to stay in business…much less prosper. In 20+ years I never met one single agent or CSR in all the continuing ed classes and any other peer interaction that was even close to as small as we were.

    I don’t suffer the “Walmart destroyed small business” canard. Competition is a fact of enterprise and if anyone thinks Apple or Microsoft hasn’t “destroyed” plenty of small players…but once more, Walmart is the one singled out in the minds of most people.

    Differentiate, innovate, adapt….or go work for someone else. Lots of folks want to “be their own boss” but may or may not make the sacrifices needed to survive. Be in at 4AM and work until 7PM or later to automate the entire business despite nobody really “wanting” to. Done it. Get out of bed early Saturday morning to meet the client because it is the only time available. Done it. Develop new revenue streams to offset dying lines. Done it.

    Ever watch The Profit? The guy is a multi-millionaire who is ASKED by failing small businesses to come and help with his own money and ideas and yet, half the people who call HIM have too much pride or stubbornness to work with the guy and make some changes….and they end up not making a deal, and will be out of business no doubt in a year or so….and no doubt they too will blame Walmart or some other competitor as the reason they did not succeed rather than look into the mirror.

    And they almost always fall back on the same line “We became who we are today doing it this way.” (Yeah, but you won’t be around tomorrow if you keep doing it that way)

    And as a nice shout-out to Jim from earlier. I understand that 85% of all NEW business startups in America today are from either immigrants or children of immigrants. The American dream is not dead, nor has it been killed by Walmart or any other large corporation. It’s just most Americans have been living within that dream and find reasons to conclude it actually is a nightmare – because they (and their preceeding generations) lack the perspective of what it is like to live just about in any other nation on this earth to know how much opportunity is here.

  86. Linda – what do you do with your sin that you do not remember or that you weren’t even aware that were sin? How would you repent of those … one big blanket prayer?

    You do realize that your sin, and in some ways it could be considered your sin alone caused the death of Jesus and then you are saying to all of us that it covered none of your sin – Jesus’ death on the cross was useless as only your repentance is what has now saved and kept you saved.

    You never really walk very far out of the RCC church you grew up in … have you?

  87. Linda Pappas says:

    MLD

    When a person comes to the foot of the cross with a sincere heart that is repentant, those sins done in the past are forgiven.

    As a person grows in the Lord, now having the Holy Spirit, they take on a new nature, their heart being changed. Being so, their attitude, belief, and values will changed as well. So when one does sin, being convicted by the Holy Spirit, they repent, turning away from the sin and hating it, not excusing it by using the blood of Jesus.

    As for sin in itself, if not addressed and done away with, be sure sooner or later it will become more sophisticated and become even more of a transgression against God and others, doing much harm while the sinner wipes their mouth and say to himself, I have done no wrong or it’s all covered by the blood. Besides one sin is the same as another, therefore, except through the blood there is no hope for me or anyone else. Totally missing the mark in realizing that if one is truly in Christ, he or she is no longer dominated by sin or the flesh, but instead their heart has been changed and are now by that which is in them will be sowing to the spirit instead. Not out of works of the flesh, but of works of the spirit which is far different than what the RCC teaches.

    It is because I do realize that it wasn’t the Jews or the Romans that crucified my Lord, but rather the hearts of all who were separated from Him due to sin. I am able to repent because of being convicted by the Holy Spirit to do so. It is a choice regardless of what your theological and traditions might say. Bible says otherwise.

    So if you find yourself lusting after a woman, get to the core of it and you will find out it has to do with your overall opinion of yourself and the opposite sex. You will find that you have fed into this so often and so frequently that you have learned to sexualized that which is not yours to have or to hold for a moment in your heart and your imagination. Instead of just minimizing this and dismissing it as a knee-jerk reaction. Understand that your brain is what has been conditioned to believe based upon the value and worth that you put on another person. God does not ever ask us to do that which is impossible.

  88. Michael says:

    Linda,

    It sounds like you are saying that Jesus only atoned for the sins up to the point of conversion, after which you are saved by your own holiness.

    That is actually even worse than Catholicism.

    If you are counting on your holiness and goodness for any part of your justification, you make the cross of no worth.

    Paul said that, not me.
    Jesus does require the impossible.
    Be holy as I am holy.
    Impossible .
    Thus, grace and the imputed righteousness of Christ save us.

  89. Linda is still RCC at heart, but just won’t admit it.

    In her view, God cleaned the dry erase board of Linda’s life, but now Linda is soley responsible to keep i clean.

  90. covered says:

    Linda, based on what you are saying, the Apostle John may not have made it into the kingdom? When I read First John One 8-10, there’s quite a few “we’s” and “us’s” in those verses.

  91. Michael says:

    I’ve read a lot of theology and I am at least familiar with most doctrines that have come around over the years, but this one about the only sins atoned for on the cross are the ones before your conversion was new to me.

    I’ve spent a ton of time looking for any theologian of any note who defends it and only came up with a known internet crackpot and some KJV only people.

    There was a belief in the early church that only the sins committed before baptism were forgiven…so a lot of people tried to wait until they were on their deathbeds to receive it.

    So far I don’t find any Protestant bread trail I can follow to see where it came from.

    It’s easily refuted, so maybe that’s why I can’t find anything in journals about it.

  92. Linda Pappas says:

    “In her view, God cleaned the dry erase board of Linda’s life, but now Linda is solely responsible to keep i clean.”

    That’s ridiculous MLD—-I did not say this at all. If I being in Christ am filled with the Holy Spirit then I will draw closer in being in His likeness, thus when I am tempted of that which once had me in bondage, I am no longer a slave to it and thus will walk away from it calling it what it is. Not of my own merits or power or strength, but because my heart has been changed and He who is in me enables me to do so.

  93. Bob says:

    Steve

    Going to bed so I thought I’d check to see where things went.

    When I mention small business and Walmart you can’t deny they changed everything. The first business model was to focus on smaller communities who did not have access to discount big box stores. You might also remember the ” made in the USA” slogan they used to push in the day. All gone today with focus is on world retail domination and in some places and cultures Walmart employees are almost treated in cult-like manner of allegiance.

    Do I like lower prices? You bet! But I think my comment way back was I’m not so sure lower costs is why corporations outsource their manufacturing.

    I am one of those who actually would rather pay more for their services and products if I’m treated better. To me that was the original success of starbucks and is the success of chick-fil. Treat me with value and I will pay more. I find when an employee is treated with value they normally will treat me, the customer, the same way.

    Thanks again for your posts. It’s late and I’m going to bed.

  94. Linda, you are still saying that you don’t sin – in fact you just walk away from the temptation. Your words in fact ” thus when I am tempted of that which once had me in bondage, I am no longer a slave to it and thus will walk away from it calling it what it is.”

    This answers the question why, when I have ask Linda at least a dozen times “how do you handle your sin?” you have not been able to answer me … because you have no sin.

    Well done good and perfect servant.

  95. Steve Wright says:

    Bob, no doubt many companies could not survive Walmart. Just like Home Depot, Best Buy, Costco, Walgreens, Borders, Sports Authority, Toys R Us have all taken out the competition. I’m sure the local coffee house gets creamed when Starbucks shows up too.

    However, you already nailed it. Plenty of Americans like you, want to do business with the local guy they know – especially in small town, “Walmart” America. I just googled my parents, OK town, couldn’t be more Walmart than there – looked up film development – sure enough, there was Walmart, CVS, Walgreens, a couple other smaller chains…then about half a dozen mom and pop places, somehow still in business.

    But you know…a whole lot of small, mom and pop shops treat you worse than Costco too. It is hardly a given that smaller = more customer service and friendliness.

    We did not have a company on our list that did any serious ads other than sponsor a golf tournament from time to time. Meanwhile, I had to deal with “Mayhem”, “24’s old President” “Flo” Agents who appear with money when summoned with a good neighbor jingle”, and “Talking Geckos” – to name a few (hundred million in ads)….

  96. David John says:

    I don’t understand how these object lessons turn into angry discussions?

    I have been following Michael for yours and can clearly see a pastors heart in applying his life lessons to direct us to depending totally on Jesus.

    I don’t always agree with minor things but the whole purpose of this blog is to lead hurting people back to Jesus and be real about there faith.

    For me a true christianity is not perfection in this life but how we respond when we do screw up.

    I appreciate Michael being honest with his human struggles which is meant to help us with our own struggles..

    To many of us Michael has become an internet pastor.

    He has responded more to questions and concerns than most of our pastors have.

    I pray he can continue with prayers and some financial help from us.

    David John

  97. David John says:

    I meant

    I have been following Michael for years not yours.

    Don’t know how to put those smiley face icons on yet!

  98. Alex says:

    David John said, “To many of us Michael has become an internet pastor.”

    I very much agree with this…even though Michael doesn’t like to hear that 🙂

    Michael is akin to an internet pastor…and a very very good one at that. He’s helped keep me from completely leaving the faith.

  99. David John says:

    I am very glad you haven’t left the faith Alex.

    That would have been a waste of time for all you have been through all these years!

    In time you will get your answers.

    I can see God’s blessing on you with a good immediate family and a succesful pawn business.

    I can’t change my parents but I can help guide the wife and children that God has given me.

    These are the people I am accountable to first.

  100. Linda Pappas says:

    Was not able to get back to those comments made by MLD and Michael that indicated that they thought I was saying that a person’s salvation is dependent solely upon a state of “sinless perfection.” I think much of this was answered by others in another thread following this, however, now that I have time to revisit this, I will clarify what I have shared. What follows is lengthy, yet in light the criticism I received and not being one to take such things lightly, nor given to giving short blips when speaking upon such a matter, I have taken time this morning to clarify what I have shared and why.

    Scripture makes it very clear that when we come to the faith, all the sins that we have committed in the past have been virtually wiped away and that we are washed clean by the blood of Jesus. Does this mean as a Christian we will never sin again or that this atonement that Jesus made is not made available for sins committed thereafter. No, not all. For Scripture tells how to walk and what is and is not sin, as well as, being now of a new nature, no longer being dominated by that of a sin nature, unless we choose to be, we having the Holy Spirit within us do have a choice, regardless of what MLD or Lutherans would teach others to believe. And this is what we will be held to an accounting, either in this life as we, and others may suffer for those choice we made, or in the next. It is not true at all that those who sin in this life those consequences will only be manifested in this life, for all one needs to do is to consider those who do sin and seem to go all the way to the grave without ever having to suffer but rather prosper instead. As for the notion or the label place upon those who strive walk or live a holy life, while others throw this seemingly condescending criticism calling it “legalism,” I can only say that most of the time when I hear this, the lifestyle of this person casting dispersion, upon those that are walking more uprightly in His name, is such that give more of an excuse to sin than to find reasons not to do so and often saying they have no choice, but to sin, and besides it’s covered by His blood, once and for all, so it doesn’t matter. Nothing more can be further from the truth. For if we truly are in Him, our heart would not say these things are would admonish itself and others to think seriously about what SIN is and how it bears witness to whether one is saved or not. From what MLD is saying, it appears all one need to do is to drink and eat from the Communion table and say prayers of confessions. Not so, according to scripture.

    The blood Jesus was shed once and for all–meaning there is no further sacrifices that needs to be made for one to be saved over and over and over again. However, once one is saved, they do receive the Holy Spirit that teaches, comfort, and convicts the believer, so that they will walk in obedience and to do the works of righteousness that emulates the heart and mind of Christ, Jesus. At the same time, this conviction that the Holy Spirit places upon our mind and heart is to serve to bring us to repentance, not just confession that we have sinned. Repentance, means to turn away after acknowledging and agreeing with God, that what we are thinking and doing/not doing has separated us from being able to have a true love and close fellowship with Him and with others. It leads us to be responsible for the choices we are making and open our eyes and our hearts to do differently, rather than to say oh, “woe if me, whatever shall I do.” What you shall do is to break loose from that which holds you into bondage, and admit that it is you that needs to change and it starts with cursing that which you so depended upon to feed into that which is not of Him. Then make the amends to others that you have harmed, as much as is possible to do so that you can be reconciled while also being used as an instrument of healing for those you have brought an injury or harm upon.

    Do I sin—–of course I do. Do I sin each and every day. No, not any longer. Do I fear that I will sin—-yes, but it is with a fear that has to do with leading someone astray or casting a poor witness against my Lord, and the love that He has towards me and towards them. It is a fear/respect that I have towards others being precious in His sight while also realizing that if I permit myself to entertain certain things long enough, I also become like that which I hate. It is a fear of giving in one inch to compromise my walk or to negotiate a faith that has been given to me as a result of God’s grace and redeeming Love, that I should never, ever return to Egypt under that bondage that I was set freed, nor now desire to be sold out to or to sell out to that pressure the world or those in the world would cause me to join them in.

    As for perfection, we all know that is not going to take place until I am at home in my incorruptible body. But to run the race and to die for His sake, that is my ultimate and foundational goal to strive and to do. I do believe that those who grow more and more mature in Christ do sin less and less. The world just does not hold the same appeal to them as it once did before, and when we first believed. More of Him and less of me——–For I am in Him, and He is in me. We are not mindless puppets, nor are we people without a free will—we are people who have always had choices and each choice have led us to places that have also brought us to the fork in the road. Wide is the road that leads to destruction and narrow is the road that leads to eternal life with Him. Be not deceived—God is not mocked. What you sow, you shall reap. If you sow to the flesh, then those seeds of unrighteousness will lead you into hell. For He is a just God as well and He will not be mocked. If the threat of hell bothers you–ask yourself why this is. Is it because you also have difficulty in understanding the law and also kick against the prick in thinking that it is not good, or it the laws are only for those who practice lawlessness. For those who are righteous do not fear the law for the laws have been imprinted upon their hearts, wanting and desiring to do that which holy and righteous before men and before the One and only true God, Lord, and Savior of our very souls.

    And finally, for those who say they are Christians, but continue to live as they are not—and only think that drinking and eating from His table suffices—not so, not even close.

    Romans Chapter 3:22

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

    10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

    11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

    13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

    14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

    22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

    26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    First John Chapter 1

    5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

  101. Linda Pappas says:

    Psalms 119

    9BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

    10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

    11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

    12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

  102. Linda,
    “It is not true at all that those who sin in this life those consequences will only be manifested in this life, for all one needs to do is to consider those who do sin and seem to go all the way to the grave without ever having to suffer but rather prosper instead. ”

    Sounds like you are making a grand case for purgatory. You should be a nun.

    2.) “And finally, for those who say they are Christians, but continue to live as they are not—and only think that drinking and eating from His table suffices—not so, not even close. ”

    I don’t think that anyone has made the case ‘to live like a non Christian’ – in fact I think the day to day life of a ‘real’ Christian is described by the Apostle Paul in Romans 7.

    Now to the eating and drinking at the Lord’s Table – since you hold the position that denies the Lord’s very word “This IS…” I can see why do do think it is a deficient way to apply the Lord’s work won on the cross for ourselves. You have a hard time not applying the “I” and depending on what Jesus said was transpiring at the table … you know, all that forgiveness of sin stuff and all that dangerous ‘the blood of the new covenant’.

    3.) But over all this time, you have never explained, in your own words why, if you are this new creation in Christ, if you have the Holy Spirit living in you, if it is by the grace of God up to you not to sin — why the heck do you still sin? Why do you despise this new creation each time you sin? Why do you despise the Holy Spirit each time you sin? Because you may sin less than me, does not make you better – because Jesus told me I should not keep score because he does not keep score … yet you keep score.

  103. Scott says:

    “Do I sin each and every day. No, not any longer. ”

    How do you know that?

  104. Linda Pappas says:

    MLD

    1) That’s ridiculous

    2) Get out of Romans chapter 7, and start living in Chapter 8

    3) This is not a competition, MLD. As we learn to turn away, overcome, and forsake sin, we sin less. By the power of the Holy Spirit, we are able to overcome the flesh and live in the Spirit. It is the position of our hearts that will determine whether, or not we make an excuse for it or strive to overcome them.

    MLD, you tend to project a lot

  105. Linda Pappas says:

    Scott,

    Do you not know what sin is?

  106. Linda Pappas says:

    Need to go for now, but will say that from Genesis all the way through Revelation, God teaches us what is and what is not sin and what we need to do to walk away from it. He even made a way to enable us to do this.

    Have a grace filled day and remember, He that is in you is greater than he who is in the world. You can do it—put on the mind of Christ in all that you do and say, and in all that you do and say, do it unto Him.

  107. Michael says:

    Linda,

    If you honestly believe that you completely fulfill both the positive and negative aspects of the whole law of God some days, I commend you.
    You’re the first person since Christ to do so.

  108. Michael says:

    Contrary to what someone else wrote, sin is not just an act.
    Jesus made it clear that we can sin both in thought and emotions without acting on either.
    It takes me about 37 seconds to sin once I get online…those little flashes of anger, pride, disgust, and lack of love for my “enemies” take turns condemning me.

  109. Scott says:

    Linda, I’m pretty sure I know what sin is, it’s any act or thought that violates the revealed nature and character of God. Jesus is the exact representation of God.

    What I want to know is how you know for sure you haven’t sinned on your “sinless” days?

  110. Michael says:

    “It is not true at all that those who sin in this life those consequences will only be manifested in this life, for all one needs to do is to consider those who do sin and seem to go all the way to the grave without ever having to suffer but rather prosper instead.”

    So God is an absentee father who doesn’t discipline His kids?
    That’s not what scripture says…

  111. Michael says:

    It is a good and godly thing to desire to sin less and walk uprightly.

    My point is simply that it is impossible to do so completely, that at the end of a day there will be things left done and undone that fall short of the perfection of Christ.

  112. Steve Wright says:

    Yes, sin is also in the thought life but it still is an act of thinking…in other words, it is not some nebulous idea..and it is not the original temptation. One would need to point to the act of thought (I lusted, I hated, I envied against a specific person at a specific time)

    The Bible encourages us to a Spirit-led, self-examination of our actions, thoughts and to repent as needed.

    I for one am sick of hearing Christians sin every hour of every day….as if there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between us and the pagans and as if the cross is 100% fire insurance from hell and meaningless to our lives on earth.

    Because the moment one accepts that we can be led by God for a certain action, taking a certain amount of time (even just one minute) then one must recognize that such moments can be (and should seek to be) repeated.

  113. Steve Wright says:

    My point is simply that it is impossible to do so completely, that at the end of a day there will be things left done and undone that fall short of the perfection of Christ.
    ——————————————————————————
    I agree 100% with this.

  114. Michael says:

    “I for one am sick of hearing Christians sin every hour of every day….as if there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between us and the pagans and as if the cross is 100% fire insurance from hell and meaningless to our lives on earth.”

    The fact that I do sin every hour I am conscious does not negate the fact that there are differences between the Christian and the pagan.

    The Christian is being sanctified by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    The very fact that the Spirit will not complete His work while we yet live speaks to the depths of our sin, the nature of the law, and the incredible grace of God.

    There are other differences, but that is the one I will point out.

  115. Steve Wright says:

    MIchael, So I get up early tomorrow and spend an hour putting together, praying over and finalizing my message. Now, I’m not saying it is impossible for me to sin while doing that (It always is possible for us to sin when doing anything)…but at least can we grant that it is possible, indeed likely, that I would not be sinning during those moments.

    I then take a shower (it would be a sin to go preach without one 🙂 )

    I then drive to church, where God would want me to be.

    I preach. I talk and pray with people. I am doing exactly what God wants me to do on a Sunday.

    And I then reflect on how it went. Maybe I did sin in some aspect – maybe in a thought towards someone….Maybe one of the conversations involved a word said or unsaid that God shows me afterwards…

    I will never be convinced there is any teaching in Scripture that says we are destined because of our inherited Adamic nature to sin every hour of every day.

    Do we sin in our sleep too?

  116. Of those in the camp that says you can sin less, I still ask why do you sin at all? Is your new man defective? For those who say they do not sin daily, do any of you go to sleep at night thanking God for a sinless day?

    Also, I think the one’s who say that they sin less are the ones who are actually counting, keeping books their sins and their good works … which is contrary to Jesus’ teaching. This is how they can go

    And what about motives – how many here pay attention to their motives when doing GOOD? Perhaps the reason I admit to more sin, is I know that much of the good I do, I do for selfish reasons… 100% sin there.

  117. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I honestly do not understand the argument on this point.

    I define sin as any violation, large or small, of the positive or negative aspects of the law.

    Therefore any anger, covetousness, discontent, irritation with a person or situation, etc, etc, etc, are sins.

    I find those things in myself constantly.

    Your mileage may vary.

  118. Steve,
    “but at least can we grant that it is possible, indeed likely, that I would not be sinning during those moments.”

    Perhaps not you, but what about the pastor putting on the final touches to the sermon who is thinking – “this sermon is a killer, this congregation should be on it’s knees thanking God I am their preacher.” Did he get through God’s work without sinning?

  119. Scott says:

    What I don’t understand is why would anyone even need to say publicly that there are days when they don’t sin? What’s the point?

  120. Michael says:

    Scott,

    There are those who believe that real Christians can through the power of the Holy Spirit and a lot of grit move towards Christian perfection.

    In my opinion that theology understands neither the depth of our sin nature or the incredible grace of God that covers it all.

    If you minimize the sin problem you minimize the cross.

  121. It’s kind of like “stand aside Jesus, I can handle this one!”

  122. Michael says:

    The other reason some people hold to this is that they want to prove that others can’t possibly be saved because their performance does not meet what they hold as a standard for righteousness.

    It would truly piss them off to see the underperformers at the pearly gates.

  123. Scott says:

    Michael, I concur with your perspective.

  124. covered says:

    Scott, you have said many things that I agree with today.

    I am saddened by those who think that they can go even an entire day without sinning. These folks tend to be a bit legalistic and when they do fail, they fall hard. Maybe if I was alone on a deserted Island with no T.V., no computer, no people, no radio, no car and especially no people then I may sin a bit less than usual on THAT day.

    I believe that the best that any of us can achieve is to sin less and to repent more. But no one can claim to be sinless but One.

  125. Michael says:

    The most transformative teaching I ever did in our church was when we went though each of the commandments a week at a time and let the full weight of the law crush us, then pointed to the cross at the end of each teaching.

    It humbled us and it made us completely reliant on the grace of God for our hope.

    I was so proud of that series I had to repent…

  126. covered says:

    A pastor that I served with in OC believed as Ms Pappas believes. He had 6 beautiful kids who all believed that it is possible to live without sinning on a regular basis. The problem is that they kept looking to “dad” as the model. On the day that they caught dad in a bed with someone other than their mom, their life turned upside down and they still haven’t recovered.

  127. Michael says:

    I thank God that I no longer fornicate like a badger in heat, I haven’t hit anyone in years, and I’ve stayed mostly sober for a couple of decades.

    I’m still arrogant, discontent, proud, covetous and in danger of carpal tunnel disabling me if I complete the rest of my frequent sin list.

    I’m better than I was, but that’s not saying much.

    Thank God for the grace to cover…

  128. covered says:

    Who was it that said, “I aint who I’m gonna be but I aint who I was”

  129. “Who was it that said, “I aint who I’m gonna be but I aint who I was””

    Merle Haggard?? 😉

  130. covered says:

    Funny MLD. You paying attention to what the Padres are doing? They may be a problem in the NL West…

  131. covered,
    The James Shield signing was good for them. The 3 outfielders they picked up Kemp – Upton – Meyers bring good bats but all 3 are poor outfielders and in big Petco that could be a problem. Padres win 88 games this year and fight for the 2nd wild card.

  132. SJ says:

    So do you just fold your hand with a low pair? I am not hung up on battling the flesh to an extreme but I still try. I am a single guy and never married. I have temptation all the time. When I go to Barnes, I know where the Maxim and FHM mags are. Do I stay away from that area of the mag rack or do I say awe bucket!!, I’m a sinner a and go and see who is on the cover. These things go through my mind…but not in a gnarly legalistic bean counter sort of way.

    I would venture a guess, the locals and David knew of the attractive Bathsheba bathing on the roof regularly. Men are aware of attractive ladies in their communities. He lost that mental battle with sin. Stay off the roof. We can’t be sinless here on earth but we can have control of our thoughts and make an attempt at being more of the spirit and less of the flesh.

  133. Col46 says:

    SJ good word – David lost the mental battle, it all starts with a thought, and my thoughts can indeed be sinful.

    “For the weapons of our warfare are…for bringing every thought into captivity”

    If we don’t take our thoughts captive then they take us captive and from there it’s a slippery slope to that thought manifesting itself in the flesh, and the battle is lost.

  134. Steve Wright says:

    I’m tired of going over old ground, repeating and clarifying and responding to old issues…no sinless perfection is possible in this life, but growth in victory over sin is possible and expected. My entire point.

    All is good so far as others say basically the same thing but then ADD somehow that “growth” means one still sins every hour of every day….so I will tell you what.

    Go get the commentary from John Stott on the first epistle of John. I think he isn’t deemed the typical uncouth evangelical ex-hippy.

    Read Stott’s exegesis on chapter 3, verses 4-10. (Which so happens is what I am preaching on tomorrow)

    I agree with I think just about every word he wrote in that section. If you do as well, then we are all on the same page. And if not, then maybe he will be clearer than I have been in explaining all this….

  135. Linda Pappas says:

    Steve Wright,

    It’s like banging your head against a brick wall. I also agree with John Stott regarding this topic.

    The more you walk in the way, the less you are in the world, and those old thoughts, behaviors, and habits are exchanged for that which is holy in the sight of the Lord. Not in an of ourselves, but in concert with He who dwells within us, if we truly believe.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/132234448/John-Stott-Basic-Christianity-Study-Guide#scribd

  136. Steve, (the quotes I use are yours, but this is not directly directed at or to you)

    “no sinless perfection is possible in this life,” Why? None of you will answer that question – just gain the victory over sin and say no to ALL sin. Tell me why not?

    “but growth in victory over sin is possible and expected.” There is your answer – it’s possible and expected … if you can gain victory over one sin , you can do it over all.

    I looked through the Stott workbook Linda posted – there is a nice chart of sins to overcome – I am sure you guys can check them off. (but don’t go to lunch after church on Sunday as it is listed as sin, as you are expecting others to work)

    Now, let me first say that I have never advocated to sin – I find my sin repulsive, — and I do not remember anyone here advocating for such. However as I get older in the Lord, I learn more about the depth of my sin – things I never realized in the past were sin. So, as I age and give up some sins (some perhaps because of age and my passions have burned out) the Holy Spirit points out sins anew … and I ask the HS, “are you kidding me?” At times I feel like the rich young ruler with new requirements thrown at me. My relationship with Jesus is constant and ongoing, it is one of repentance on my part and forgiveness of His – never one of me reporting on my “sanctification progress”.

    This may be the reason some churches practice confession and absolution (because we depend on it) and some churches are the weekly spiritual victory lap.

    Two of the worst books that still travel the American evangelical circuit are Alan Redpath’s “Victorious Christian Living” and “In His Steps” by Charles Sheldon

    http://www.amazon.com/victorious-christian-living-Alan-Redpath/dp/1482613794

    http://www.amazon.com/In-His-Steps-Charles-Sheldon/dp/1453832866

  137. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I’m thankful there is another person here that remembers the Reformation.
    I’m tired of going over old ground too.
    As the Lutheran said, I don’t advocate sin…it’s repulsive and contrary to what I want to be.
    As he also noted…and this is key…as one set of sins pass, another group is illuminated by the Holy Spirit.
    There is no end to the depth of my sins…or the grace of God that covers them.
    If you think differently about yourself, you are simply deceived.
    His grace will cover that as well.

    My I also say a loud “amen” to the book reviews.
    Many in CC bow their heads when Redpath is named…I gag.

  138. Michael – it is the great divide in the question “What is a Christian?”

  139. Michael says:

    MLD,

    You have me rethinking the doctrine of progressive sanctification this morning.
    I need to tear the thing down and start over…

  140. Nonnie says:

    This conversation is so strange to me.

    I thought it was basic Christianity to believe that the more we grow in Christ, the more we see the depths of our sin, and yet how wonderfully merciful and gracious our Lord is.

  141. Michael says:

    It has been an odd one.
    The only thing I can say at this point is that everyone who has commented believes as they do unto the Lord and are within orthodoxy .
    Thus, they should all be honored as family despite the differences.

  142. Linnea says:

    “I thought it was basic Christianity to believe that the more we grow in Christ, the more we see the depths of our sin, and yet how wonderfully merciful and gracious our Lord is.”

    Yes, Nonnie– that is the way I see it. The more we know Him, the more we see how we fall short, and yet, He fills the ever-growing divide.

  143. London says:

    I wonder if it is less shame we have rather than less sin?
    If we are so used to our behavior, thoughts etc causing us debilitating amounts of shame throughout our lives, our dealing with that through an act(s) of repentance may relieve the feelings of shame, thus making us feel like we aren’t sinning in the same way, or as much.
    Also, I do think that the Holy Spirit does let us know, in advance sometimes, that a particular behavior isn’t a good idea, which would lead to less actual sin and less shame.

  144. Linda Pappas says:

    In the field of psychology there are the following terms used in helping people to heal from that which has harmed them while also learning to take responsibility in making better choices for themselves that enables them to be emotionally mature and able to be less dependent upon that which caused them to fall in the first place.

    Biblically speaking, IMO God’s word also shares with us similar principles or concepts of the healing and maturing processes.

    Toxic Shame/Guilt = Condemnation, leaving a person feeling worthless and without hope.
    Healthy Shame = Conviction, a person acknowledges a wrong done and takes measures to remediate this.

    When being born again, being filled with the Holy Spirit, we are no longer under condemnation and have been set free from having to be held in bondage to that which kept us away from having a relationship with God. Instead we are guided by His Word and the Holy Spirit to be able to walk in obedience, not out of a rebellious heart, but of a grateful and loving heart which has been changed as a result of believing and following after Him. When we sin, we do not need to feel condemn, but rather rejoice that this is being brought to the light to show us that we do need to repent and turn away from it and not continue to use those old excuses that we did before we came to believe. We rejoice in the truth rather than to stay hidden in darkness and being accused by the enemy which leads us back to a sense of toxic shame. We rise up and we call it what it is and we rebuke while examining what is the core root and what false belief we may have adopted prior to coming to the faith, to get a want, desire, or need met that may have protected us from harm, but in reality only served to hold us a hostage or in bondage, that left us at a deficit and fearful of being hurt, while not realizing that as we fed into this, we too became in part that which separated us from Him.

    As we do this, we do become stronger, more mature, and more concerned towards how our thoughts, words, and deeds do affect others and the world about us. We see things from His perspective and that which was fades away. Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Not shame and condemnation, but a heart that has been changed—no longer under condemnation, but readily seeking to dwell in the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

  145. Linda Pappas says:

    correction: “Healthy Shame ” should read: Healthy Shame/Guilt

    Yes, that was wrong, I am sorry and then take steps to rid oneself of it so that it does not bring harm or offense again to the person. (Repentance). Not toxic shame/guilt base, but relationally based.

  146. Jim says:

    Malcolm Wild teaches that Rms 5-7 are “parenthetical”, as Paul could not possibly be referring to the life of a Christian. Is this the common CC view?

    I’m a recipient of mind-boggling overcoming grace. God has relieved me of so many besetting sins that I’ve lost count. I tried very hard to “backslide” once, but it didn’t take. 🙂

    In spite of a clear understanding that I am a new creation, with abundant evidence of His power within me over formerly life-dominating sins, Rms 7 still rings true to me.

  147. Alex says:

    Michael, congrats on the 100,000 downloads btw. That is pretty impressive. People are listening to you.

  148. Scott says:

    Okay now, one of the things Democratic presidential candidate Obama ran on in ’08 was getting us out of Bush’s “illegal war” in Iraq, lots of people voted for him on that alone.

    He withdrew our troops. Al-qaeda reemerges as ISIS, starts chopping people’s heads off, burning them alive in cages, etc., and now Democratic President Obama is sending troops back into IRAQ.

    I’m wondering how people who voted for him feel about what is about to happen, namely boots on the ground in IRAQ?

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