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169 Responses

  1. Paige says:

    Amen. A testimony of HIS greatness and our weakness. That will always be The Message, IMO. My current favorite word for God is “Vast”….. the older I get, the more I realize how completely VAST God must be, way beyond my miniscule comprehension…. Vast…

  2. Michael says:

    Amen, Paige.
    I’m surprised when He uses us at all, but His ways are truly beyond knowing.

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    The people I am with this very moment are fruit of the movement God used Chuck to father. He would not claim us as his own but nonetheless we know we owe him a debt of love.

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    To be a bit clearer. He loosed Lonnie on the world and Lonnie’s influence is upon us. We are no more ashamed of one than the other and no less proud.

  5. Xenia says:

    His influence has been good and also,I would say, regrettable. It is almost impossible to visit almost any church in the US today and not observe the (in my opinion) deleterious influence of the Jesus Movement’s rebellious culture. Almost every church on the map now has worship-team style rock music (soft or hard rock) and a very casual style of dress. The hippificaton of the American church. Cool surfer/ druggie jargon (or whatever is currently en vogue). The idea that the church should conform to the culture rather than the culture (or at least, people claiming to be Christians) should conform to the church.

    I know the majority of folks on this blog will see this as a good thing.

  6. Ricky Bobby says:

    So much fanfare over Chuck Smith and his passing…yet hardly a blip when the homosexual evangelist Lonnie Frisbee passed…and it could be argued that Lonnie was the reason for CC’s early success which Chuck co-opted.

  7. Ricky Bobby says:

    The Traditionalists, if they want to kick it really Old School CC, should embrace the homosexual evangelist Lonnie Frisbee and Kathryn Kuhlman and the early days of CC’s Charismania.

  8. Julie Anne says:

    There has been a lively discussion in the comments on my blog in which I reposted Alex’s article. There are mixed comments on whether it appropriate to discuss the negative aspects of a church leader when he just died. I believe that it is appropriate as we look over the span of someone’s life and their influence in the church community. I think it’s important to look honestly at their contributions both positively and negatively because we can learn from them.

  9. erunner says:

    Xenia, Do you think if it wasn’t CC that it was inevitable that it was only a matter of time before the things you describe would have taken place? It seems that even before CC came to be God was moving elsewhere in reaching the youth.

    If CC was genuine revival ignited by God would He have ignited something born of rebellion? I’m a product of the time and the movement and it was possibly the only style I would have responded to.

    If the Jesus movement was true revival can we say it was born of rebellion? I appreciate your thoughts Xenia. I’ll be leaving soon to visit our dearest friend who is in the hospital with what looks to be cancer in her liver and lungs. This came on quickly and out of the blue. Would you and others say a prayer for our friend and her family as this has hit them hard?

  10. Ricky Bobby says:

    Well 99.99999% of the stuff out there that I’ve seen has been nearly Idolatrous. You’d think Jesus was re-crucified.

  11. Michael says:

    Julie Anne,

    It’s a tough call, particularly in our blog communities.
    My heart is with those who are feeling a great loss at his passing and as much as possible I want to respect and acknowledge their feelings.
    My heart is also with the second group who feel as if he was part of the violation of their faith.
    At the end of the day I believe we’re called to mourn with those who mourn…and there is plenty of time to write a more detailed history.
    The effects of his life will continue for many years to come, both good and bad.

  12. Jim says:

    Julie Anne,

    To each their own, but I’ll be respectfully quiet when CJ dies, for a period of time. I’m not into karma, I’m into grace, and I hope CJ dies as peacefully as Chuck did. I think you’re well aware how I feel about the man.

  13. Ricky Bobby says:

    “To each their own”

    Agreed. Different strokes for different folks. Some will see it one way, some another.

  14. Mark says:

    C’mon Michael, “THOUSANDS of people whose faith was shattered and whose lives and hearts were damaged through Smith’s actions and more correctly, his inactions…”

    You know that is a gross exaggeration. I am truly surpised at you that as Chuck Smith’s family hasn’t even buried their father and husband you allow this blog to be used to malign the man’s reputation.

  15. Mark says:

    “Thousands of lives damaged” by Chuck Smith. Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

  16. Ricky Bobby says:

    Actually, Mark, I think “thousands” is an understatement. I’ve encountered “thousands” in emails and comments and private messages just from my blog…and on the way to 6 million hits in under 3 years from all over the world.

  17. Michael says:

    Mark,

    It is in no way an exaggeration…it might be an understatement.
    I’m being as cautious and fair as I can be…and I understand that any criticism at this point is thought inappropriate.

  18. Mark says:

    “Thousands of hearts shattered” by Chuck Smith. Michael- I’m ashamed of you.

  19. “Born of rebellion” was an objection by my friends who were in The Shepherding Movement in the 70’s. We had a 4th of Julay party and they even dared to say that the American colonists were wrong to rebel against The Crown and that they should have submitted to the government God appointed over them. I was blown away by that way of thinking, so I rebelled and left them. 😉

    I’m always stunned when someone derides reasonable change as “born of rebellion”.

    Pesky bunch, those Founding Fathers. They framed their objections as to why The Crown was wrong, asked for redress, and when they were told to bugger off they listened to their reasonable minds and weighed all they knew of their heritage, which was heavily influenced by their reading of scripture and other writings and decided that if The Crown could not be brought to reform itself then it had invalidated its role and should rightfully be resisted and a new nation should be built. Pretty obvious that they were wrong and that the disapproval of God rests on the good old USA… (not).

    And, always at every crisis point, the church has found itself also called out for grievances and abuses of power and position, then the stalwarts insist they bear the standard of history and personal anointing and affiliation and even to the direct laying on of hands by the predecessors and declare themselves the repository of ecclesiastical orthodoxy and deride the reformers as emergent heretics who do not honor the legacy of the founder(s)…

    David Byrne likes to sing, “And you may ask yourself, ‘My God what have I done?’ Same as it ever was…”

  20. Xenia says:

    Erunner, I don’t have a good answer to your excellent questions. I have thought about this for many years and all I can say is that God is in the business of saving people.

    I had/ have a lot, and I mean A LOT, of affection for Pastor Chuck as a person. I’m not a fan of some aspects of his legacy and influence on American Christianity. I think everything he did he did out of a genuine and sincere desire to please God and bring people into the Kingdom.

  21. Ricky Bobby says:

    Mark said, ““Thousands of hearts shattered” by Chuck Smith. Michael- I’m ashamed of you.”

    I’m taken aback by your willful intellectual dishonesty. Err, that’s right it’s that “Mark”…no I’m not.

  22. Michael says:

    Mark,

    I knew you would be.

  23. nancy says:

    Mark … the damaged lives haven’t suddenly gone away just because CS has died. The people who have been hurt over the years are still around & carrying the scars just like when he was alive. That too … is part of his legacy …

  24. Jim says:

    Mark,

    Michael is in a position to know of what he speaks. I was in a similar position for a few years, and was constantly accused of exaggerating or lying. As it turned out, I was underestimating.

  25. nancy says:

    Of … & Mark … based on the number of families hurt by one CC is this area … from one small CC … thousands is a low number …

  26. nancy says:

    Ooops … that’s Oh … not Of … & yea … what Jim said!

  27. Nonnie says:

    Can any of us live our lives and say we never hurt anyone, we never said anything we wished we could take back, we never misunderstood others or our motives were misunderstood. I’ll tell you, I am thankful for God’s grace. I’m not a Pastor Chuck worshipper, but I do know his life and ministry touched my life.

    My heart aches for his wife and his children as they prepare to bury their husband/father/grandfather. Praying for God’s comfort and that the family will love and comfort one another, in His love, to His glory.

  28. Xenia says:

    I agree with Nonnie (as usual).

  29. Michael says:

    Yesterday as I was going through the pile of emails and text messages about Smith’s passing I was caught up in the outpouring of affection and gratitude that so many feel for him.
    Among those text messages was another side of the story…the report that another CC pastor had failed and the doors of that church were now closed and the sheep scattered.
    All of which could have been avoided with some accountability and oversight.
    Those messages have to stand next to each other if we are going to learn from both legacies of a man greatly used of God.

  30. I think if anyone’s hearts (or faith for that matter) were shattered by Chuck Smith, then they were putting their comfort and faith in the wrong person.

    If they did, they did it on their own because I know that Chuck Smith never asked anyone to cling to him. If there was idol worship for Chuck – it was a one way street.

  31. Ricky Bobby says:

    Michael said, “Those messages have to stand next to each other if we are going to learn from both legacies of a man greatly used of God.”

    Well the full story needs to be told…but I am realistic in knowing that the Chuck Worshippers will have “their” history* and then there will be the accurate historical record which includes the good and bad and the ugly.

  32. Gary says:

    Chuck Smith was not the Jesus Movement and the Jesus Movement was not Chuck Smith or Lonnie. They were both a small part of a move of God just as Shiloh, Resurrection City and JPUSA were a small part. If there was no Chuck or Lonnie God would’ve used some other sinful men. Chuck and Lonnie did right by me in my first few years but they both done me wrong since. Even my old friend Bill (Yes, Xenia- that Bill) done me wrong. What they did to me was a pinprick compared to Ricky Bobby so I’ve moved on just as I’ve had to move on from PxP.

  33. nancy says:

    I’ve always found it interesting in scripture that often both sides … the good & the not so good … of the people that God used is recorded for us to learn from. There is clearly wisdom in that & one of the many things that makes the Bible stand out. Just thinking …

  34. Steve Wright says:

    Millions is not an exaggeration
    —————————–
    If millions is not an exageration, Then “thousands” works to one or two percent of millions.

    How many could effectively minister to 100 people over multiple decades without one or two people having a bad experience and holding to a bad opinion. Few leave churches on super-positive terms.

    And its a lot harder to pass that bar when the real abuse that came from someone else is laid to your charge.

    I say everyone is entitled to their own story and experience with the man – and can share them whenever they want. Dance on his grave if you feel led by the Spirit to do so. God will sort it all out in the end (and often in the present – for the Lord does discipline His children).

    But they are in the minority, and as such show a lot of jealousy and anger at seeing the majority give that praise. Like Jesus said (to paraphrase) once you’re dead, the living can’t hurt you anymore. That opportunity is now gone forever for some.

    So wild hyperbole of idolatry, as well as poor judgment in timing, is aimed at brothers and sisters in Christ – making one wonder if such people who have no clue on social graces, no hesitation to attack those who grieve, use such wild terms to “spiritualize” their discontent (idolatry sounds a lot worse than tribute and thanksgiving) are 100% innocent in their causes and claims.

    I’ll say this. Nobody accused Reuben of idolatry when he posted that moving tribute a couple years ago to the spiritual father than meant so much to him. Nobdody will accuse Michael of it when Dr. Packer goes to his reward. I doubt anyone in this community will accuse those deeply touched by Piper or Keller as being idolaters – though you can bet that such men have ruffled the feathers of a couple people over the years.

    People who influence “millions” (no exagerration) will always have their critics – and their critics are entitled to their experiences, but, if Christ means anything to them, they are not equally entitled to sinful judgment and hate upon others with different experiences.

    That is my one comment on this blog as to Chuck’s passing and the immediate aftermath.

  35. ( |o )====::: says:

    ChuckSr could have and should have nipped the “PapaChuck” thing in the bud when it started about 15 years ago. For a guy and movement who were anti Roman Catholic to miss the glaringly obvious “Papa”/”Pope” thing and watch it morph into such veneration with not a negative comment is amazing.

  36. Michael says:

    I tried to be both fair and gracious in what I wrote this morning.
    Neither the “millions”, nor the “thousands” are exaggerations.
    The fruit of Smith’s ministry exceeds greatly the damage done.
    Having said that…and meaning it…. those who have been hurt are people with real faith, real feelings, and equal value to their heavenly Father.
    What happened to them cannot be dismissed as simple collateral damage in a great kingdom building project.
    They have to be heard and lessons taken from their experiences when God moves greatly again.
    Now, it may well be that it was too early and insensitive to write this piece today…to those who believe that to be true I offer a humble apology.
    I still prayerfully believe that I spoke what many wanted to be heard along with the heartfelt affirmations of love and loss.

  37. Linnea says:

    Nonnie….”Can any of us live our lives and say we never hurt anyone, we never said anything we wished we could take back, we never misunderstood others or our motives were misunderstood. I’ll tell you, I am thankful for God’s grace.”

    Amen. That’s the real lesson here.

  38. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve Wright says, “If millions is not an exageration, Then “thousands” works to one or two percent of millions.”

    Jesus supposedly says, “Leave the 99 to save the 1″…or about 1% no?

  39. DavidM says:

    Michael, I am surprised at how quickly you have spoken of the “thousands of lives shattered through his actions and inactions.” The man has not been buried yet. And, is Ricky Bobby actually Alex? I don’t visit here each day, but seldom have I read such smug, arrogant words on this blog, except for Alex.

    Anyway, while I hope that there would be at least a respectful acknowledgement of his death, it doesn’t take long for the critics to begin chirping. I can understand it when I read the comments in the LA TImes online comments from non-Christians and scoffers, regarding anything Christian, but to hear such immediate words that are so unkind from Christians is sad and disheartening. I am not blind to Chuck’s faults, of his “actions and inactions”, but please, at least allow the family to pay their last respects before the onslaught begins.

    I have been a pastor for over 30 years, and I am certain that there are people out there that would say that I did or did not do enough for them, that they were hurt by me in some manner. Chuck’s ministry was so broad and well-known, thus his mistakes are magnified a thousand-fold. But how many of us in ministry do not have those who would say similar things? Look in the mirror.

    I am not a “Chuck worshipper” by any stretch, and I have seen the non-public side of him, so my eyes are wide open. But, I do respect him on many levels and want to now focus on the good. I want to “do unto others” in regards to his passing.

  40. Steve Wright says:

    Michael – read my post again. I’ll help

    “I say everyone is entitled to their own story and experience with the man – and can share them whenever they want”

    I am not critical of the existence of your post today per se.

    Then read again what I am really being critical of in the immediate aftermath. The slander and judgments on others in the Body of Christ by those people who (as you describe) “are people with real faith, real feelings, and equal value to their heavenly Father.”

    Then they need to act like it. Share their story, fine. Don’t hurt others or judge their stories.

    Pretty simple if you ask me. Idolatry is a serious sin in the eyes of God.

    But you know as well as I do that most of the thousands you are talking about were not hurt by Chuck personally, but rather HE is the one getting the collateral damage when the responsible person for the hurt is somebody else.

    And of course, it is very easy to say “Chuck could have done something about it” – given the way CC was structured…and even to choose think that makes him culpable for something.

    But to EQUATE the hurt caused by someone else as if it was caused by Chuck is not fair or accurate.

    Now I am guilty of lying because I said the other post would stand alone – but felt your response might have missed my point so thought some clarity on what I was saying and why might be in order.

  41. Ricky Bobby says:

    DavidM said, ” it doesn’t take long for the critics to begin chirping”

    Well, you got that part right. Found out at around 4:30am PST and started writing at 4:31.

  42. RB,
    “Jesus supposedly says, “Leave the 99 to save the 1″…or about 1% no?”

    Your biblical ignorance is showing again. Jesus never told anyone to leave the 99 … he told a parable about someone who did.

    But again, the parable is NOT about leaving a flock of sheep to fend for themselves, it is about a shepherd saving people when they did not even know they needed saving.

    You had better stick to gun running where your knowledge base is a bit higher. 😉

  43. Michael says:

    DavidM,

    You know I greatly respect you and I take your words to heart.
    I certainly do not want an onslaught of negativity…as I said in the article I believe we’re on holy ground here.
    My intent was to allow all the voices to be heard in balance.
    If I failed in doing so, you have my sincere apologies.

  44. Ricky Bobby says:

    MLD, disagreed…and so do many other flavors of Christian*. The parable’s meaning includes caring for those who you perceive may have lost their way…or so probably half or more in Christianity* would assert as well.

    The metaphor is Jesus as the “good shepherd” who leaves the 99 to save the 1…the metaphor is further used to tell undershepherds of Jesus to be like the “good shepherd” and to emulate him…ergo the parable has meaning in the context (or it can be reasonably argued) that I presented it.

  45. Steve Wright says:

    I have been a pastor for over 30 years, and I am certain that there are people out there that would say that I did or did not do enough for them, that they were hurt by me in some manner. Chuck’s ministry was so broad and well-known, thus his mistakes are magnified a thousand-fold. But how many of us in ministry do not have those who would say similar things? Look in the mirror.
    ———————————————–
    Amen a thousand times. I know there are a few that feel that way about me in my 15 years – and yet sometimes you have to say “no” – sometimes you upset someone because you aren’t superman to fix every trouble, pay every bill, ease every hurt – you do the best you can to make amends, to leave no hard feelings on your end.

    And once in awhile you run into someone whose lone criticisms have no merit at all too (as a hundred witnesses would attest). It is the nature of the office.

  46. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I’m in the untenable position of understanding and hearing where everyone is coming from and trying to syncretize it all fairly.
    I’ve said about all I can say and I need to let what I actually wrote stand.
    I’m not accusing anyone of idolatry…when Packer passes I’ll disappear for a while myself.

  47. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve Wright said, “you do the best you can to make amends, to leave no hard feelings on your end.”

    Yes, and what if the pastor doesn’t do that? What then? Just grace him over and hey “we all sin, no one is perfect”…well, unless it’s someone challenging your authority at CC…well, then grace? Not so much….

  48. Steve Wright says:

    I understand, Michael. And I appreciate that you have not been critical (to my knowledge) of those who are living and stating their tributes of a man that the Lord used greatly in their Christian walks.

  49. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Yesterday Treys mom came in and dropped him off…and I must have looked like I’d been dragged through hell backwards.
    Treys first question was whether Packer had died…because he knew I would be a mess.
    His moms first question was whether Jerry Lee had died, because she knew I would need to be hospitalized. 🙂
    We should celebrate the lives of those who God uses greatly and feel a great loss when they pass from the scene.

  50. Ricky Bobby says:

    MLD said, “You had better stick to gun running where your knowledge base is a bit higher”

    I think I’ll stick to both, as well as some other genres Mr. “prosthetic arms” salvation LOL 🙂

  51. Michael says:

    I’m out for the afternoon…

  52. DavidM says:

    Michael, I appreciate that you allow comments from a variety of points of view. And, that you seek to be fair and understanding. Thanks for the blog.

  53. Dave Rolph says:

    I am about as devastated as I could be that Pastor Chuck is gone. He was a dear friend and father to me, and he was unlike anyone else I’ve ever known, and I don’t expect those who didn’t know him well to understand that. Of course he wasn’t perfect. But why do we always feel so obliged to balance off our positive statements with that disclaimer? I certainly understand the importance of a balanced perspective for the purpose of historical lessons to be learned. But the day a person dies, while so many are mourning, doesn’t seem to be the opportune time to call attention to perceived flaws and failures of a person.

    I also believe that judging someone based on what they didn’t do, that you think they should have done, is a tough standard. When a guy did so much in 86 years, to then compile a list of what else they should have done, seems unfair.

    Finally, I genuinely appreciate the fact that Alex hasn’t changed his tune about Chuck just because he has died. I think he has more integrity than people who hated, resented and reviled Chuck, but then pretend otherwise just because he dies. Chuck knew what Alex thought of him, and it would insult and disrespect Chuck now to pretend otherwise. As a sidenote, I have discussed Alex with Chuck on many occasions, and I never heard him say anything bad about Alex. Chuck just wasn’t like that.

  54. Steve Wright says:

    Ricky Bobby,

    Given your actions towards me on your blog, and what you allow there from others – I feel it is rather hypocritical to try and have a conversation here – only for you to run back to your home blog and call me an A-hole for what might be said here.

    But for the sake of those reading – two points need to be said.

    1) You had a longer meeting with Chuck than I ever had in my life. In fact, I never had anything that could be called a personal meeting with the man. I know you had a longer meeting than most of the people paying tribute to him on facebook ever enjoyed. Sure you called for the meeting, but no doubt a lot of people called for meetings that never had anything like you received.

    You had this meeting when you already were his vocal adversary – well after your blog had been running. Chuck granted you that meeting despite a couple people urging him not to. He was willing to meet with his adversary.

    Point two.

    2) That meeting changed you. As everyone around here back then remembers. You were influenced by the man for good. Everyone here remarked about the “new” Ricky Bobby and complimented you. You and I even exchanged emails to that effect. This was before you decided that two weeks meant exactly 336 hours, urged on by all those around you saying you were being duped and manipulated, leading to that blow up post of everything that was in process. And well before Chuck then shared what he did that you always link to (even as he still did not mention your name that night).

    These two points are your personal legacy with Chuck Smith. He met with his adversary, and made things better for a season.

  55. ” Mr. “prosthetic arms” salvation LOL”

    I made an impression you will never forget – the ultimate monergism example that explains content and method. 🙂

  56. Steve Wright says:

    . As a sidenote, I have discussed Alex with Chuck on many occasions, and I never heard him say anything bad about Alex. Chuck just wasn’t like that.
    —————————————————————–
    Worth repeating…..in neon.

  57. Kevin H says:

    I think for the most part the discussion here has been respectful. Going beyond the discussion here, I have no problem at all with those who are mourning a loss of someone who was loved and/or meaningful to them. Yes, I think that some of the outpourings of admiration do start to border on the idolatrous. I probably don’t see nearly as many as being idolatrous as some others may. But idolatrous or not, when people are genuinely mourning, I don’t think that is the right time to try to correct them or reprimand them for their perceived idolatry.

    Back to what has been written here, I think it would be very hard to expect that Michael is not going to write something commenting on Chuck Smith’s death. Based on the history of this blog, it would be very curious if Chuck passed and Michael didn’t give it any more than a mention. I think Michael’s address of the situation has been fair. In what he is written, I don’t see him as trampling all over Chuck nor criticizing in any manner those who are genuinely mourning. Also, again with all the past history of the issues that have been addressed here and with Michael’s personal knowledge of many who have been hurt by Chuck, either directly or somehow indirectly through his influence in the CC system, it would not be proper for him to make at least some acknowledgment of the wrongs and hurt. This group who have been hurt is not encompassed of just a few. So while there are many who are genuinely grieving his passing, there are also others whose hurts are being brought back to the forefront, in a sense, with the news of Chuck’s passing. All of the outpouring of love could certainly be a trigger for that.

    I did not have a personal affinity to Chuck in a good or bad way. I do admire him for having been faithful to God’s leading back during the days of the Jesus People Movement and for his faithful teaching of the Word all these years.

  58. Xenia says:

    #33- Gary, do we know each other, maybe?

    My CC pastor (Bill) never hurt me, ever, but thinking back I am sure that I have hurt him on many occasions. If things didn’t go my way I would mouth off but he never did, he was always courteous. Oh, If I could only relive some episodes in my life!

  59. DavidM says:

    Xenia, I love your perspective!

  60. Paige says:

    I am definitely ‘someone’ who was sore wounded by a CC church & pastor and had to endure listening to the praises for a pastor who betrayed and deeply wounded me and many others, right up to his death and since.. Focusing on that negativity and even trying to inform others of the ‘other side of the coin’ proved to be completely valueless. Furthermore, the more I looked at circumstances and hung on to ‘what happened’, the sicker my soul became, disrupting my confidence towards God. Letting go and unconditionally forgiving was/is incredibly healing and freeing.

    People are sinners. All of us.
    We all fail.
    Pastors and churches fail. They are sinners.
    They are not and never were any form of real Hope or Life.
    The Bible plainly documents many episodes from Genesis on of defiled leaders of congregations. Hello, this is nothing new.

    BTW…… the poster known at “Mark” here on the PhxP is NOT my wonderful husband Mark who is known here as MrFixit….just sayin.

  61. Paige says:

    Thank you Dave Rolph and Steve Wright for your words and perspectives….

    My experiences with Pastor Chuck, tho few and brief, were ALWAYS loving and kind.

    When my life was crumbling in 2000, my phone rang with CCCM on the caller ID. My
    daughter answered the phone and repeated “Is this really Pastor Chuck Smith? Thank you so much for calling.” His caring words and kindness to me and to my daughter were quite precious. It was rather remarkable that he knew of my situation and took the time to call.

    He will always be a large foundation stone of my christian walk.

  62. Mark says:

    Michael- I was out all day and am now catching up. You know my position. Words like “lives and hearts damaged” and “faith shattered” as a result of “pastoral abuse” in all its varied forms will always stand as an exaggeration to me. Anyone who allows their faith to be shattered by the actions of a pastor had minimal faith in the first place. I am not referring to extreme cases like actual sexual or physical abuse. Although, even in those cases there is opportuity to “get over it” (as many of us have) rather than allow our faith to be shattered and lives to be damaged. Rather, I’m referring to the oft told tales of “verbal abuse” or the even more specious “abuse of authority” that have peppered these pages over the years. “Lives damaged” – by Chuck Smith- because a local pastor asks you to step down from ministry or won’t show you his financials (specific examples) c’mon now, really?

    Chuck Smith will go down in hisotry as one of the greatest proponents of the fiath since Billy Graham. His ministry has led to salvation for millions all over the world. As Steve Wright made clear -otehr much lesser figures have passed away and no one spit on their graves- yet Chuck’s body is still warm and this community finds it OK to focus on his flaws. And Michael- you know I respect you greatly and have sought your private counsel – and you know I am qualified to talk about “abuse” I am just really really surprised that you have allowed this talk on your blog. Couldnt you have at least waited until the man was buried?

  63. Nonnie’s #28. Best of the day!

  64. Julie Anne says:

    Chuck knew what Alex thought of him, and it would insult and disrespect Chuck now to pretend otherwise. As a sidenote, I have discussed Alex with Chuck on many occasions, and I never heard him say anything bad about Alex. Chuck just wasn’t like that.

    Dave, why do you suppose Chuck remained silent and didn’t do anything about the abuses Alex and many others experienced by Bob Grenier? It’s nice to say that Chuck Smith never said an unkind word about Alex, but silence amidst known abuse tells another story completely. Scores and scores of people were virtually abandoned by him and some are still dealing with the consequences of his silence. Some have abandoned their faith or are wrestling with it.

    You can be sure that for every person who is mourning the loss of Chuck Smith, there are countless others thinking about the “what ifs” and mourning their losses because of abuse. These are difficult days for them as they realize the man who could have done something and didn’t is no longer here.

  65. Julie Anne says:

    Mark said:

    Anyone who allows their faith to be shattered by the actions of a pastor had minimal faith in the first place.

    Mark, I don’t know you, but that is a very low blow.

  66. Ixtlan says:

    I’m wanting to stay sensitive here.

    I know that I would not have traded places with Chuck Smith for anything. If for no other reason, because it was not my destiny.

    The Biblical narrative is rather explicit in revealing the full scope of who God’s servants were. It is amazing the God chooses any of us.

    It takes courage to look at our own weaknesses and those whom we love, honor and respect. When placed in the proper context, our infirmities speak loudly to the incredible grace, patience and love of God.

  67. London says:

    I miss the days when this blog would have been a place of comfort for those who just lost someone they loved and admired instead of a place of confrontation and condemnation for them or their loved one on the day after their death.

  68. bishopdave says:

    I’d just like to say I’m really grateful for Maranatha! Music. It’s pretty much the only contribution to my life that CC made, but what a contribution! I think that’s who ought to lead the singing in Heaven.

  69. Mark says:

    Julie Anne- I am responding to the use of words. Faith “tested”- OK. Faith “lessened” – fine. Faith “shattered” by the actions of a man – in the context I furthered clarified (ie. not talking about physical or sexual abuse)I question. A strong faith would not, IMO, be shattered in that case. I am feeding the confrontation that London refers to and, as I respect London and the others here who truly want to properly grieve, I will bow out from further comment.

  70. Paige says:

    Amen, London. As you know, some of those key voices of compassion are missing or silent at this time…..some enduring great hardship and suffering of their own…. and hopefully lurking so they know they are missed.

  71. London and Paige…yep.

  72. Bob says:

    I believe giving so much credit to Lonnie appears more as Chuck sour grapes than it does real truth.

    While I’m not a CC or CS fan I believe his testimony bears out the skill and ability of CS to preach a consistent word and demonstrate the same in his life. While CS has many flaws he basically did a good job of starting the largest non-denomination denomination in the country and deserves credit for it.

    Now Lonnie? I never knew him, heard him or glorified him and from what I read he was more a showman than many today. Credit for the movement? I say no but others say yes, may he enjoy the mercies of God in Jesus our Lord and Christ!

    Oh and someone asked about RB and the answer is yes.

  73. Ixtlan says:

    As to our short comings; there is much about my past that I loathe, and still feels like a ball on a chain after all these years. But it is not useful to constantly bring it into the light.

    Chuck Smith understood his own depravity. I don’t know when this clip was taken, but it is clear he understood, that like all of us, that Jesus is our only hope.

  74. Ricky Bobby says:

    Bob said, “While CS has many flaws he basically did a good job of starting the largest non-denomination denomination in the country and deserves credit for it.”

    But, I thought Jesus or the Holy Spirit started it…but, I think I agree…Chuck started the Institution of his own will.

  75. Ricky Bobby says:

    Mark said, ” Anyone who allows their faith to be shattered by the actions of a pastor had minimal faith in the first place. ”

    Actually I think I agree…which is why I tell folks to avoid the cult-like Calvary Chapel b/c it encourages Pastor Worship and promotes a man above all the other ‘sheep’ and says he’s “specially anointed” and “hears from God” and is the Moses of the franchise and the final say on all things.

    It’s a dangerous cult-like dynamic and I agree…folks shouldn’t buy into this bad CC doctrine and ecclesiology that promotes the Pastor as being so ‘special’ which leads regular folks into Idolatry and opens them up to a huge let down.

  76. erunner says:

    I’ve posted music for the week and in recognition to the passing of Pastor Chuck I’ve posted what I consider to be 15 classic songs from the “Jesus Movement” period of time. For some of you you’ll recognize these songs but if you’re not familiar you owe it to yourself (in my not so humble opinion) to drop by and have a listen. God bless!

    http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/maranatha-praise-worship-october-4th-2013/

  77. Reuben says:

    Mark, no idea who you are or what the story is, but I would get banned from my own job here if I responded to that.

  78. DH says:

    In reference to the video @ 74. That was excellent ! I for one can only place my hope in the finished work of Christ who I came to know through Calvary Chapel. For that I am very thankful.

  79. brian says:

    People can take this for what its worth I have said it before and some think I am just a drama queen which I can be in some cases. But not this case. I honestly dont get grief, for most of my life from very young in the hospital where I lost several room mates to the type of work I do now grief, among some people, was seen as vile. At least displayed in public. I lost several people when I first became a christian and brought it up, only a bit, and it really just seem to tick people off. I never brought it up like I do here, it was always couched in between several caveats, and followed up with several Im sorry after the response I would get. I did cry one time at church after the horrid death of my father, that line I will never cross again.

    Honestly I just dont get it, I see people grieve here and I see them cry at church and ask for prayer etc. But I dont know if its me, is there a way to ask for permission to feel or to express feelings, a way to make sure you dont bother people but still ask for the help you might need. Or even better a way to not ever need anyone I am trying that now and its not working to well. I understand the public grief for Pastor Smith he was a powerful leader and the grief does serve the apologetic but just normal grief for the non powerful / important people?

  80. brian says:

    ” ” Anyone who allows their faith to be shattered by the actions of a pastor had minimal faith in the first place. ””

    I was often told I did not have any faith in the first place so I guess this might be true.

  81. Dave Rolph says:

    Julie Anne,

    I don’t want you to think I ignored your question but it was complicated, and I just don’t have the strength to deal with it right now. I’m sorry.

  82. Linnea says:

    London @68 and Paige @71///me, too.

    “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”

  83. Julie Anne says:

    Dave – Thanks much for your reply. I’m not a CC person, just a blogger who has a personal connection with Alex because I was sued by my former pastor for speaking out about abuse. I really had no idea who you were, but I’ve heard you name around these parts. Just a little bit ago (long after I posted my comment to you) I read the LA Times article (http://www.latimes.com/obituaries/la-me-1004-chuck-smith-20131004,0,7276715.story) and saw your name mentioned. Obviously you were very close to Chuck Smith and I completely understand why you would be unable to respond. I apologize for asking you such a pointed question in light of your comment. I must have been skimming the first time through because I completely missed the part about Chuck Smith being like a father to you. I’m so sorry, Dave. My question must have really stung.

    I guess as someone who has personally dealt with spiritual abuse, had my family torn apart because of it, I have a personal interest in understanding the “whys..” Anyway, if one day you feel you are able to take a shot at helping me to understand, feel free to contact me at spiritualsb @ gmail dot com

  84. erunner says:

    Julie Anne, Thank you for your #84. It has encouraged me.

  85. erunner says:

    Xenia, Thanks for your response at #21. Some times it’s best to admit we don’t know rather than saying something that misrepresents God. God bless you and yours.

  86. keith says:

    You folks might want to check out YouTube and do a search on ‘Calvary Chapel’. Some I have seen before but there are some new ones that shocked me.

  87. brian says:

    Keith I am not shocked, it is part of doing business, that alone justifies anything they did, it has, does, and always will, that is more sure then the trinity. What I marvel at is that God used such clowns to fulfill His will, and it is clear that He did. I find a sense of peace in that as it gives some of us lesser clowns hope that He may use us. I find this strange but this is good news to me. I dont think Pastor Smith would disagree with this, in a very strange way I think he saw himself as a very small cog caught up in a very big machine and got lost in the complexities of this rather twisted world. That is all gone for him, as it will be for us, now he sees in reality what we all hope for. I know I hope for it, after these many years its all I have left, but I dont feel desolate, I find joy.

    As I think God can even use me, because it used Chuck and Lonnie, why do I keep hitting this point, well if God can reconcile Lonnie and Chuck maybe He can reconcile say a rather abusive pastor and his son who wants justice and hope. Maybe there is a great reconciliation and maybe the Spirit of God does still move. The Cynic in me says no, but the human in me, if there is such, says yes and rejoices. What I hope for is that the CC movement gets back to its roots, gives up the Moses model, adopts hard leadership guild lines and seeks reconciliation even if it costs them in court. I think Pastor Smith would be honored by this, the cynic in me things that there will be bitter vile battles between the stakeholders in the industry, and it is an industry. This 86 year old man did the best he could, in some ways it was powerful, in some ways it sucked big time. Personally I hope he is remembered in good will. I dont know Pastor Smith, but I think I would like him, he could not have “liked” me holding to the validity of the ToE and anti dispensational view of the end times. But I am still held sway by Pastor Chuck’s smile and his kindness.

    He passed of a horrid disease, if we really want to honor him lets put this evil to rest, if it is prayer, science, voodoo, what ever, Cancer needs to die in our species. If I could think of one thing that could honor him, it would be the death of this curse. I could careless how it is vanquished. We have done this in the past with Small Pox and polio. Like I said I could think of no better honor to Pastor Smith then to see the death of this vile evil satanic curse on humanity. Cancer must die, how is that for a Christian call. We might try that instead of other agendas. Just a thought.

  88. brian says:

    An another aside, I think Pastor Smith did much Good, I think Alex and Michael did / do much good as well, the journey is still out on me if I did any good. From an emotional expression at best I am a waist of air, but that is clouded through many layers of pain and hope if that makes any sense. Am I a morally deluded person, most likely, and if one looks at my posts I wont deny that, I envy many Christians their certainty, it is not founded in science or history but it does give peace in circumstances. I give great merit to that.

    In some ways I think I grieve for my early Christian Experience as I do for Him because they are so tied together. If that makes any sense.

  89. john mushenhouse says:

    I had to stop reading. people stop your crying for yourself. One said that he was hurt more than others. Are we in competition. Is it just me me me and I can’t go on cause I was hurt. Is there no balm in Gilead? Are your hairs no longer numbered? Are you getting stones instead of bread? Is the one who caused all to see now blind to you.

    God is still God and He was God through Chuck’s life. The real problem is we blame men for our faults/hurts instead of trusting God. You know, leaning on our own understanding instead of the word. We like to seek revenge even if it is in a blog.

    I know there were prblems, but Jesus is greater than any problem.

    Folks have you heard about forgiving one another as God forgave us.
    It’s in the bible – read it and practice it. Get ovre yourselves

    Now Chuck was always kind, understanding and loving to me and from other blogs, I see he was to others.

    beware of that little lump of leaven

  90. Ricky Bobby says:

    Dave Rolph said, “As a sidenote, I have discussed Alex with Chuck on many occasions, and I never heard him say anything bad about Alex. Chuck just wasn’t like that.”

    Dave, I don’t doubt that Chuck meant a lot to you and many others and for that reason I’m sorry for his passing (same goes for Chuck’s biological family). He seemed to be a great dad…and “dad” to some others like you who weren’t his biological kids. That’s the best of the man IMO.

    As to the “I never heard Chuck say anything bad about Alex”…

    Dave, c’mon, you’re a very intelligent guy. Do you think that statement will fly?

    Chuck absolutely blasted me publicly from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit to his mega-church. I have the audio. He called me all sorts of negative things and even said that what he could do could only hurt me a little, but that God was on his side and what God “will do” well you know.

    Chuck also said all kinds of bad things about me on the live internet radio interview when we called him. Chuck knew he was on the air and he blasted me good saying all sorts of negative and “bad” things about me.

    Dave, your comment is simply incorrect and I think you knew it when you wrote it…you’re just putting out positive propaganda that simply isn’t true.

  91. Ricky Bobby says:

    Dave Rolph said, “I also believe that judging someone based on what they didn’t do, that you think they should have done, is a tough standard.”

    Seems a literal and “simple” interpretation of your presupp. bible disagrees as it is a “standard” that seems the bible asserts:

    James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

    Luke 12:47
    “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

    John 9:41
    Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

    Dave, if your presupp. fundie interpretation of the bible is true, Chuck will be judged (at minimum Bema Seat) for not doing many things he should have done in his position of great power and responsibility as the so-called “Papa” of a very large and influential non-denomination.

  92. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve Wright said, “1) You had a longer meeting with Chuck than I ever had in my life. In fact, I never had anything that could be called a personal meeting with the man. I know you had a longer meeting than most of the people paying tribute to him on facebook ever enjoyed. Sure you called for the meeting, but no doubt a lot of people called for meetings that never had anything like you received.

    You had this meeting when you already were his vocal adversary – well after your blog had been running. Chuck granted you that meeting despite a couple people urging him not to. He was willing to meet with his adversary.”

    Ricky Bobby responds: Ya, which makes what Chuck did and didn’t do much worse. Chuck had more than enough info to do the right thing. He did the Pontius Pilate instead b/c I didn’t kiss the ring and play ball when the deadline came and went.

    Steve Wright said, “Point two. 2) That meeting changed you. As everyone around here back then remembers. You were influenced by the man for good. Everyone here remarked about the “new” Ricky Bobby and complimented you. You and I even exchanged emails to that effect. This was before you decided that two weeks meant exactly 336 hours, urged on by all those around you saying you were being duped and manipulated, leading to that blow up post of everything that was in process. And well before Chuck then shared what he did that you always link to (even as he still did not mention your name that night).”

    Ricky Bobby responds: Ya, when Chuck gave the impression he was going to do the right thing, it gave me hope. Then Chuck did an about face quicker than you can say “Touch not God’s anointed” b/c I didn’t play the game the way he is used to. Once I realized I was being played the fool (which I was partly mentally prepared was a possible outcome) I changed course.

    Steve Wright said, “These two points are your personal legacy with Chuck Smith. He met with his adversary, and made things better for a season.”

    Ricky Bobby responds: Ya, Chuck met with me (and Geoff) alright. He heard all the stuff first-hand and in person. He said he believed us. He read the stack of testimonies from many other families of Calvary Chapel who had been hurt, etc. Chuck gave the impression he’d do the right thing and do something. Then he didn’t. And, in fact, he doubled down and made it much worse by going on the attack from his powerful pulpit and then he gave the green light to BG to sue me and not Paul as a sort of payback and as an attempt to try and shut my blog down, etc. Chuck was famous for playing both sides in a controversy and letting them kill each other. I don’t let Chuck off the hook. He was a big boy and he knew what he as doing. Very shrewd and intelligent man. Rolph is shrewd and intelligent as well. I don’t buy the “we no speaka english” routine when it comes to “well we just didn’t know what to do or who was right”. Bull. You knew, he knew…he simply didn’t do the right thing and he had the power to do so.

    C’mon Rolph, he stopped you from yanking BG’s dove and you know it.

    Don’t be fooled by the propaganda and PR spin folks. It is what it is.

  93. Bryan Stupar says:

    “Decades ago, the Lord chose to use a middle aged nobody, a gay prophet, and a bunch of kids with guitars to bring a revival to this country, the fruit of which has lasted over fifty years.”

    The above is a total simplification (which is spot on).
    And a humbling one at that!

    God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. 1 Cor 1:27

  94. Dave Rolph says:

    Ricky Bobby,

    Chuck spoke graciously of you personally, behind your back. I know he made some ill-advised statements about you from the pulpit one time. But even then, he validated your accusations.

    The often-mentioned two weeks was because I was in Alaska, and nothing could start before I returned. The day I returned, you ran the byline, “Dave Rolph And Chuck Smith Are Liars.” That made it impossible for me to continue to push for resolution. My key witness had gone off the rails. I still wonder what could have happened had you exercised some patience and restraint.

    As far as sins of omission are concerned, that is for people who know what they should do, and don’t do it. It doesn’t indict someone who believes he is doing the right thing.

    But I’m not going to discuss it further right now, and not because I’m being “shrewd.” I’m just exhausted, and have a message to prepare.

    I think you know I love you and your family. We’ll talk again next time I’m up in your neck of the woods. I’ll buy lunch.

  95. Bryan says:

    I only dipped into CC for a short time in my life. And Chuck was not the reason I decided to move my family toward a Calvary. I was raised in a nominal Christian setting at best. It was a life influenced by biblical morality without the knowledge of Christ’s central role in reconciling sinful man to a holy God.

    I became convinced of my sinful condition, in a very mysterious way, over a period of time. Much like the story of Christian in Pilgrim’s Progress. A friend invited me to a Baptist church where I heard fairly simplistic teachings from 1 Corinthians that cut me to the quick. I was feeling spiritually exposed, and very uncomfortable. After a few months, I stopped attending the church but couldn’t outrun the mysterious presence of the God I didn’t know.

    God eventually opened my eyes and mind while pleading for answers, staring into the starry sky. God initiated everything. He chased me while I was running. He gave me new life.

    I have always credited the pastor who taught me parts of 1 Corinthians for being used by God to help me meet honestly with God. I loved and respected that man. I eventually became a very close and trusted friend of his. I even worked as a pastor along side of him. Being this close to him, meant I would eventually see his flaws. And I did. As a fairly young believer, his weaknesses caused disappointment in me. In one particular instance, great disillusionment.

    I’ve suffered several life-changing disillusionments in the past four decades. All of them at the hands of mere men. After each dark epoch of time, God magnified himself, and helped me to sift out the proper view of myself and other people. I had breakfast with this revered pastor a few years before his death, and chose to overlook his role in bringing on my personal suffering, instead concentrating on what God had done in both our lives.

    I don’t write this for anyone in particular. I’m an honest man like many, and I see life as it really is. By many accounts, this world is filled with tons of manure. It stinks to high heaven. By many other accounts, this world has many joys and intricate beauties. Study a rose for just two hours, and it will change your outlook for the next ten.

    Chuck missed several huge opportunities to alleviate someone’s pain. He had his private reasons to ignore it. I don’t condone any of it. Asking those closest to him to be objective about his life is unwise. Less impassioned students of history will pen better accounts of what went on. In this moment, it seems wiser to be pastoral in the noblest sense. To listen long, to ask compassionate questions, to listen again until the well runs dry. Then as we all sit among the thousands of tears, we should lift our gaze to the Maker of All Things, and praise his holy name. He alone will satisfy our aching hearts.

  96. Ricky Bobby says:

    Dave Rolph said, “My key witness had gone off the rails.”

    I’m not the one who said he got molested…and there were a lot of other witnesses, too many to ignore, that you could have run with. You guys made the choices you made. Don’t try to shift the blame back onto me.

  97. j2theperson says:

    I would not describe myself as happy that Chuck died, but I’m not unhappy either. Mostly I just feel relieved. CC as an organization can finally change–probably won’t change for the better, but, at least it won’t stay the same.

  98. Ricky Bobby says:

    Dave Rolph said, “It doesn’t indict someone who believes he is doing the right thing.”

    I don’t buy it. You’re asking me to believe that Chuck Smith was a complete idiot and incapable of knowing and judging right and wrong in the BG situation with all the testimonies and evidence he was presented.

    Don’t play me as the fool. I’ll never buy that. Chuck knew he did wrong and did it anyway.

  99. Juniper says:

    One of the key person who was installed personally by Chuck. To oversee and lowered the boom on the cc’s when needed was Oden Fong. He went after Set Free with cccm resources to try and bring thrm to ruin. But when it came to cc internal abuses, Oden covered things up. Odens own ministry at cccm,poiema with its abuses and coverups is never discussed. Oh well, I guess as time goes on, memories fade, and the present problems in the world, I guess work in favor or forgetting about the past ministry abuses, perhaps for the exception of those who are still stuck and wounded.

  100. Michael says:

    Oden Fong is my friend.
    I have examined the accusations and found all smoke and no fire.
    Don’t blow any more smoke here unless you have facts.

  101. Juniper says:

    Talk to a girl named Liz who Oden knows very well. And for years the things she shared that Oden confided in her private things that are scandalous, if your interested in wanting to investigate, I might be able to get that contact. No smoke here.

  102. Michael says:

    Second hand accusations of scandal from people who may or may not exist don’t cut it.
    If you’ve got some proof my email address is phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
    Until then, this discussion ends now.

  103. PP Vet says:

    I know some really scandalous horrible stuff about the guy who comments here under the name PP Vet.

    Other than that, I got no dirt on nobody.

  104. London says:

    Wow.
    A man died. His family is grieving.
    He’s not even buried and there are people who are “glad” he’s dead and others that think its ok to go after people who were closest to him when they are in the middle of grieving for him.
    What the hell is wrong with people that they can’t save their harsh words and attacks for even a week?
    Vultures in sheeps clothing.

  105. j2theperson says:

    I missed the part where anyone said they were glad Chuck was dead. These various reactions are testament to the fact that, for any good done by the organization Chuck founded, it was also deeply flawed and has caused a lot of pain to a lot of people.

  106. Mark says:

    Unfortunately this blog host was the initial vulture and has continued to allow the other vultures to pick at the carcass. There is something called “class” which is sorely lacking on this site

  107. Mark says:

    Note how quickly our host shut down any criticism of his friend Oden. He could’ve done the same re Pastor Chick

  108. Michael says:

    Mark,

    I’ve read and reread the article about a hundred times due to the criticism.
    I think it was fair and and actually, pretty reverent.
    On a blog that has been online for ten years dealing with CC issues it should be expected that there will be some critical comments.
    I think these have been balanced with the comments of others who are feeling the loss of a beloved leader.
    You have been allowed to speak your mind along with everyone else and people can weigh for themselves what has been spoken.

  109. covered says:

    I have much more respect for those who have strong feelings one way or the other about Chuck. Like it or not, he did some wonderful things and he failed in many ways. From everything I understand about grace and our Savior, Chuck did well. Mark, for you to attack Michael the way you have the last couple of days makes no sense at all. PP is an outlet provided at the expense of someone who calls it like he sees it. I would rather see you bash Michael on another blog than do it here. It serves no purpose, your comments are unfounded and anyone that know Michael knows that he sees the good and the bad in Chuck. Your issues with Michael obviously go back a ways and have nothing to do with this particular article.

  110. Apologia77 says:

    I am concerned that this forum has become what it hate the most. I presume Michael doesn’t want to be known as an ODM? But the traits are there.

    Here’s what we know. Millions of people have been blessed by Chuck Smith and/or a CC that may or may not have ever had direct contact with Chuck. They continue to be blessed. Maybe they’ve been hurt. But maybe they were mature enough to process that aspect of common human experience. Here’s what else we know… If we were talking about anything other than the illusion of an institution (which is simply a gathering of people) and this was actually addressed as nothing more than inter-personal grudges vented with impunity on the internet, there would be no difference between this and obsessive stalking. “he didn’t treat me right. He didn’t make me the center of his world. He didn’t change the way I wanted. He didn’t treat me as important as I thought I should be. Now I’ll make sure that no one else will be happy with him… I’ll make them hate him. And if they don’t do what I want Ill add them to my list.”

    I’m decidedly disturbed by this. Disconnected people on the internet declaring themselves moral authority, and ‘gathering evidence’ from even more people they don’t know from adam to form a shambolic court of insinuation and opinion in order to prosecute unverifiable grudges on behalf of unverifiable witnesses, without entertaining hearing a word of testimony against the complainant because somehow those who claim to be victims are above reproach. What about the testimony of the victims of the victims? You guys seem to be hurting plenty of people, with impunity. Makes me think there’s something in the good christian principles of not judging lest ye be judged with the same measure, not judging before the time, not gossiping, dwelling on kindness and goodness, ‘doing unto others’ and so on, personal accountability, not linch mobs.

    Salem witch trials gathered evidence. And grudges. But because they could get a bunch of easily led, petty grudge-mongers to ‘corroborate’ so the death sentence was justified.

    I cant stomach this hateful sinful rebellion any more. And before anyone comes back with some insincere trash abouts false indignance and selfrighteousness fuelling the protest, I’ll point out that even though you are exposed publicly, disagreed with by majority of christians, rejecting your own scriptures and your own interpretation of them, and desperately need to be under an authority who will protect everyone else from you, unless I violate everyone elses freedom to choose and have their own experience, I cant stop you and call you to account and i’m not hateful enough to spend my time and energy like an ODM writing a blog laden with gossip and conflict pertaining to you. Goodnight and god bless. Another shocked lurker finally switches off the channel.

  111. Apologia77 says:

    Nobody cares because no one wants to repent of their ways, but consider this… As a prefessing “Christian” there’s something chilling and unchristian about anyone who can say “I have files on these people. I’ve gathered testimoniesagainst them. I’m open to the possibility of what I might do with them.” shamefully unchristlike, and nothing like a ‘safe christian culture.’ problem with unregulated militia and private courts is that no one is safe, if the agenda shifts. Just like an ODM. Sorry day. Chuck family haven’t even had a funeral and the vultures are circling as always. So much for “harmless as doves.” e

  112. Mark says:

    Covered u couldn’t b more wrong. The only place I would criticize Michael is on his own blog so he could defend himself if he chooses. Unlike others I have NEVER gone running to another blog to criticize anyone. Michael knows me as a defender of CC from the beginning and I remain one today. I believe it was totally unnecessary for Michael to state that thousands had lives damaged and faith shattered because of Pastor Chuck in the HOURS (not days mind u) after his death. Michael knew that on this blog those words would spur a feeding frenzy of anti CC and anti Chuck comments. Which it did. Michael and I have a long history on this blog but I have been there for him in prayer and supported his cause with $. We have spoken privately by email and he has been a blessing to me. I respect what Michael does on this blog. In this case I am being consistent with my views and Michael knows that.

  113. Mark says:

    Michael you claim the article was “pretty reverent “. Yet u know the entire purpose of the article was to remind everyone that despite the worldwide accolades pouring in ( which Michael referenced but did not himsel deliver) Pastor Chuck had many flaws yada yada. Michael just as easily could’ve written an article announcing chucks death and stating he would give the world a few days to grieve and then post his article. Instead people like Dave Rolph and Steve Wright had to come here in the midst of thier grieving and defend Pastor Chuck. I expected michaels article. But I expected him to allow the loving to bury thier dead first

  114. Roberto says:

    “Salem witch trials gathered evidence. And grudges. But because they could get a bunch of easily led, petty grudge-mongers to ‘corroborate’ so the death sentence was justified. ”

    The old “Salem Witch Trial” ploy again. Kind of reminds me of those who reference Hitler and such.

    Apolo.. I assume you have actually read the witch trials rather than rely on popular media and lore about the subject. Quite frankly the actual trials were disgusting and reveal a lot about humans in general.

    “…and i’m not hateful enough to spend my time and energy like an ODM writing a blog laden with gossip and conflict pertaining to you. Goodnight and god bless. Another shocked lurker finally switches off the channel.”

    I’ll bet you’re still watching, because you are hooked on it and your response is really no different, neither above or below, any of the others here.

    “Espejo espejo en la pared…”

  115. Scott says:

    Mark, I wouldn’t worry about protecting Chuck Smith’s reputation too much, especially as it relates to this article.

    115 comments (positive & negative), with many contributed by the same individuals, is hardly a consensus or landslide.

    As to your protestation that the timing of the article is a bit premature, I can understand, however, some will contend Michael said too much and others will say he said too little. The reality though is that you were given the opportunity to speak your mind openly without being cut-off just because you didn’t agree with the host.

  116. Bryan says:

    Michael,

    I have often shared that attempting to be a peacemaker will bring arrows to the heart, and knives to the back. It’s what you get when attempting to stand in the middle.

    Peace lovers avoid conflict. Peacemakers stand in the midst of trouble. Why? Because their faith leads them to stand against injustices of any kind. That often draws blood. In Jesus’ case, it required all of his.

    You are on solid blood-socked ground Michael. Press on in the midst of the fiery storms of inhumane behavior. God knows the intent of your heart.

  117. Jim says:

    Comparing this site to ODM’s is really ignorant, so I assume that it may be an attempt to get a dig in against PP. Nice try, I suppose, but no thoughtful person will take your bush league jab seriously. Please let the adults talk now…..

  118. covered says:

    Mark, I have as much history with CC as pretty much anyone on this blog. My kids attended CCHS. I attended a CC and was even an assist pastor at our local CC. The truth is the truth, and like it or not, many people have been damaged by CS and CC. There’s no question that many have been blessed as well but Michael’s article is balanced. It would be very simple for you to do the research and confirm CS’s behavior and actions with the son of one of his pastor’s and make up your own mind. CS was used to do wonderful things and in other ways, he failed miserably just like you and I.

  119. White Horses says:

    Sorry, but I’m with those who find this page disrespectful. It serves no purpose to make mention of Pastor Chuck’s faults.. God does not keep a record of wrongs.

    “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. Ephesians 4:29”

    There is nothing that is “helpful for building up others” in mentioning negative things about of Chuck Smith. Ruminating on his faults only causes bitterness to stir up again, which is not of the Lord. We are called to love as Christ loves, and to forgive as Christ forgives. Those who claim to have been hurt by this man are certainly not sinless.

    Chuck Smith was used by our Lord to bring millions to Christ. Glory to God for that.

  120. j2theperson says:

    ***Sorry, but I’m with those who find this page disrespectful. It serves no purpose to make mention of Pastor Chuck’s faults.. God does not keep a record of wrongs. ***

    It seems pretty disrespectful to all the people who have suffered abuse in CCs due to the Moses Model of leadership popularized and promoted by Chuck to not in even a teensy-weensy way mention any of those problems that Chuck got the ball rolling on.

  121. J2 – now you have me wondering – just how is a person hurt in a CC because of the Moses Model??

    I can see someone hurt by an abusive pastor, but that can happen in any system. Now if you are going to say “because there is no recourse”, well that may play into it, but the ‘hurt’ has already taken place.

    I guess I just don’t see the direct line – MM = hurt

  122. filbertz says:

    whitehorses,
    according to your quote from Ephesians, it is ‘wholesome’ and ‘helpful’ to talk to someone whose ‘needs’ include perspective or recovery from some form of spiritual abuse. Further, this discussion would benefit ‘those who listen’ in that it may help them assist others who have suffered from the same or even prevent such abuse from happening elsewhere.

    Most scripture has meaning beyond its quotability as a ‘trump card.’

    Also, as a disclaimer, I am not referencing CS in this, but as a general point of interpretation.

  123. Ricky Bobby says:

    “God does not keep a record of wrongs.”

    Well, Chuck and CC Pastors did and do.

    Lawsuits, smear campaigns, blasting regular “sheep” from the pulpit, cuffing up a guy who spoke out at the Ergun Caner appearance at CCCM etc.

  124. Apologia77 says:

    Filbertz,
    What exactly is “spiritual abuse.” How do you determine that the victim IS abused, is not the abuser, is not peeved and unreasonably demanding? If a church of a thousand spawns one bitter ‘abused’ person, who protects the 999 from the defamations of the 1? As I mentioned earlier, it would seem not possible to tell the difference between a genuine case and a stalker, or an obsessive. Or do only celebrities get stalkers and obsessives, not pastors and church leaders? And if forums like this are necessary to make people who think theyve been abused feel better and recover, why does no recovery appear to be occurring? I can’t imagine too many support groups for people with negative experiences surviving if their method was to repeat on a daily basis how upset and angry they are and how much they need other people to join them in their negativity. Misery loves company but does nothing for recovery?

  125. Ricky Bobby says:

    Apologia77, that is a false analogy.

    I see “church abuse” as more a systemic Group dynamic, more akin to racism and a better metaphor would be the civil rights type movement.

    Pastors in a Moses Model construct are told they are “specially anointed” and “better” or “higher” in spiritual terms than the “sheep”. They are given the reigns to their kingdom with very little check and balance to their power unless they institute it themselves.

    What tends to happen in the Moses Model type “Pastors are special and have all the power” construct is you end up with folks on the wrong side of these sometimes egomaniacs and those folks have no power and are roundly rebuked, shunned and smeared in a very cult-like manner.

    Similar to the racism, the issue is a flawed mindset that the “Pastors” and especially the lead pastor (in Moses Model type systems) is inherently superior to regular “sheep”.

    This is error and it’s a dangerous mindset and leads to abuse of power.

    It’s not easy to “get over it” when it’s happened to you. When others misuse power they shouldn’t have in the first place, it’s not easy to just “let it go” when there is no changes made, no apologies, no reconciliation etc.

  126. Ricky Bobby says:

    I can example this Apologia77. Imagine you and I had a disagreement and even though I was in the wrong or partially in the wrong, I basically ran you off of here. When you appealed for some sort of recourse through some sort of process, all the doors were slammed in your face. It was “there’s the door, see you later” and you’re out.

    Then you hear that I smeared you and others are parroting those things around that particular church community (or in this case this blog). Then all those who used to be your friends on here (or at that particular CC) start cutting you off, one by one…even some of your family members.

    Then, the person who was in the wrong and offended you gets up at a pulpit every Sunday and proclaims the praises of Jesus and tells how wonderful a ministry they have and how they have so much good fruit and they do no specific wrong etc….meanwhile you’re an emissary of the devil and “divisive” and a liar and rebellious and the other M.O.’s that are like reading from a CC Moses Pastor script of how to handle “problem” sheep. etc.

    I don’t think folks should “recover” if it means Denial and accepting things that are wrong as right and righteous.

    My message to folks is “avoid the cult-like Calvary Chapel” unless or until they make some structural changes that provide much better checks and balances.

  127. Bob (Roberto) says:

    Apolo…

    See I said you wouldn’t leave as one of your posts said.

    The conversation here and on so many blogs is tense because people have passion for their spirituality and beliefs and you are no different.

    What could or should happen is as we converse I would hope that “teach-ability” would mean we learn to be civil and see others made in God’s image and not just be tools of the Devil.

    Too bad so many believe being teachable means the other person will see they were right.

  128. j2theperson says:

    ***J2 – now you have me wondering – just how is a person hurt in a CC because of the Moses Model??***

    It’s a very flawed power structure, one that is easily open to abuse. Financial abuse is very easy under it because the pastor is the only one in charge and he has no one to oversee him. It’s the easiest thing in the world to tell people they should tithe/donate to the church for one purpose but then use that money for something else.

    If the pastor is taking sexual advantage of a vulnerable person there’s nobody there for that person to go to and there’s nobody there to question or oversee the pastor and there’s no one to kick him out of the church.

    Churches that give all the authority to the pastor create an unhealthy view of leadership and promote the idolizing of the pastor which in turn makes is that much harder to deal with abusive behavior on the part of said pastor.

    Also, I could be wrong about this, and if it’s ever proven to be wrong then I’ll take it back, but I strongly suspect that the Moses Model style churches attract abusive men in undue number specifically because the leadership structure gives them all the authority and lets them get away with crap they wouldn’t be able to in a different church.

  129. Lutheran says:

    What J2TP said.

    It’s all about accountability. In a spiritually abusive system, there really isn’t any. The pastor is King and his power goes unchecked. Often his elders (if there are any) are bought and paid for.

    Checks and balances would go a long way. In a “normal” church along with Cs and Bs, there are also bylaws and rules. Committees. Planning. A King can get away with doing everything on the fly.

    It isn’t rocket science.

    And in case you don’t get it, here’s a link to a great article.

    http://www.watchman.org/profile/abusepro.htm

  130. Steve Wright says:

    Once more, it bears repeating.

    Calvary Chapel is not the only church to see the primary leadership role as residing in the pastor. Is Chuck to blame for all the abuses that happen in many Baptist and other independent or denominational churches too?

    Pastor Chuck was very clear in teaching that the pastor should NOT be self-serving, should have a good Board that is not made up of yes-men. The fact that some have not heeded his advice does not make the man guilty for their sins.

    There is a disconnect among the critics. On the one hand, critics point out that CC pastors can run roughshod and never be held accountable for their sins. On the other hand, CC pastors have made news in being removed from their pastorates due to their moral failings and pointed to as well by the critics. And at the end of the day both results still are somehow Chuck’s fault.

    I’ve been told by Michael and others here that somehow I am “different” and our CC is “different” – Well, maybe we are, I don’t know – but I do know (and I told our church this yesterday before we went into the message) – whatever pastoral philosophy and principles I have put into place in my ministry these many years have all been learned by one man – Chuck Smith. Nobody else.

  131. Ricky Bobby says:

    I don’t have experiences with those “other churches”…I have direct experiences with Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith and his undershepherds.

    I would give the same warning to folks that I give regarding CC…avoid Fundamentalism in general, especially where you see similar dynamics in the Leadership being “specially anointed” and above you and that they hear from God and you don’t and that they have all the power, etc.

    It’s cult-like and dangerous and leads to corruption and abuses…and little to no recourse for you, a regular schmuck “sheep”.

  132. Apologia77 says:

    Ricky. I am sorry. I am perhaps stupid. I dont see how I am any closer to understanding why I can call the 999 people a liar because the 1 person tells me they have a bad story to tell. Are we talking about churches that are prisons or communes where people are locked in and cant get out like waco? I understand that you want a court to judge the 999 in the church but which court does the 1 person submit under so that we can make sure they are not lying? It seems that both sides are steeped in pppotentials for injustices, both sides as unaccountable, both sides calling for people to believe them. If it is right for groups like this to `keep files\ on pastors and churches is it ok for pastors and churches to keep files on people who cause trouble?it seems that what you want is state regulated religion not freedom. Well that would be one thing, but what penalties will we have for people who lie and make up scandals and rumours because they hate or are jelous? You cannt have justice unless it is blind and equal, and neither side seems able to offer that, so all that remains is that mature adults have eyes wide open and if something doesnt suit them, they dont stay. I have never been to a church where anyone had so much control over any people they can abuse and I have been to few Calvary Chapel as well as Baptist and Methodist and other evangelikal.

  133. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve said, “There is a disconnect among the critics. On the one hand, critics point out that CC pastors can run roughshod and never be held accountable for their sins. On the other hand, CC pastors have made news in being removed from their pastorates due to their moral failings and pointed to as well by the critics. And at the end of the day both results still are somehow Chuck’s fault.”

    Not a disconnect at all and I agree with this in terms of being factually accurate regarding the pick-and-choose ad hoc nature of Chuck’s dove-yanking and church discipline.

    Chuck Smith told me he has “never gotten involved” in other CC’s affairs, that they were all independent etc…which was lying to my face. You seem to acknowledge that he lied to me as you seem to agree that Chuck and CC have gotten involved in other situations at times.

  134. Andrew says:

    I’ve been told by Michael and others here that somehow I am “different” and our CC is “different” – Well, maybe we are, I don’t know – but I do know (and I told our church this yesterday before we went into the message) – whatever pastoral philosophy and principles I have put into place in my ministry these many years have all been learned by one man – Chuck Smith. Nobody else.

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Nobody else? For what its worth Steve, you are not much different that most CC pastors I have come across. And if you never learned any thing from anyone but Chuck through out the years, I feel really sorry for you man.

  135. Get him Andrew!

    Get all over him!

    Sorry, saw the name Andrew in the recent posts and new he’d be going after Steve.

  136. Ricky Bobby says:

    Apologia77, if you are literalist Fundamentalist who appeals to the bible as inerrant, infallible, perfect and to be interpreted and applied “Simply”…then Paul the Apostle lays it out pretty simply in your bible…as does Matthew.

    What you are is a Selective Fundamentalist, as was Chuck, as is CC.

    You pick-and-choose what you like and what you don’t…then you claim “but the bible says!” on other issues.

    The fact is the bible gives some explicit instruction on Qualifications of Pastors, Church Discipline, Dealing with Offense, etc. You and CC just choose to either ignore it or de-emphasize it…while you choose to hammer homosexuals or other issues where you wax very hard-line and literal and no wiggle room.

  137. Steve Wright says:

    If you guys are convinced that every pastor ever removed from his CC due to a moral failing is only because Chuck Smith (or someone from CCOF) personally chose to kick him out…then I will not convince you otherwise

  138. j2theperson says:

    ***Calvary Chapel is not the only church to see the primary leadership role as residing in the pastor. Is Chuck to blame for all the abuses that happen in many Baptist and other independent or denominational churches too?***

    I specifically was talking about people who “suffered abuse in CCs due to the Moses Model of leadership popularized and promoted by Chuck”. I don’t know how much more specific I could have been. I believe he is absolutely to blame for the use of the Moses Model in Calvary Chapels. Chuck didn’t seem to have a very high view of church boards and in fact told a story about a pastor choosing a board one week and firing them all the very next week when they reached a consensus he didn’t agree with. You can’t argue that that’s promoting a church board with any actual authority or use other than being yes men.

  139. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve, there are cases where Chuck made the final decision, there are others where a dude was removed and Chuck didn’t have much or anything to do with it…and there are cases where Chuck ignored and/or protected a guy and helped keep him in place.

    J2P, as usual, you are very clear and logical…and correct.

  140. Steve Wright says:

    j2 – I can argue that because that one story that is such a favorite of the critics has details in it you do not share – nor do I want to rehash again here. People can read it and decide for themselves but it is a VERY unique case in how it came about – you are talking about a one-week board and thus a one-week old church (though the Bible study had been going on for some time)

    I can argue it also because Chuck specifically has taught and written down, you do not want your Board to be made up of yes men.

    In all the talk of selective choosing of words in the Bible, there is also a lot of selective choosing of words from Chuck on the internet. If men do not do what they were taught, and the churches do not do what is in their best interest against such sinful men…well, let’s blame Chuck Smith for it. Especially the week of his death.

    My point earlier was that so-called Moses Model leadership existed way before Chuck arrived, and exists in many denominations today. He did not somehow create out of whole cloth this new monstorous style of church government. He may have coined the term – but not the government structure.

    And my point about pastors being removed is to show that apparently the pastor does not have 100% dictatorial power because there are times and circumstances when CC pastors have been removed by their own churches.

  141. Lutheran says:

    ‘My point earlier was that so-called Moses Model leadership existed way before Chuck arrived’

    Steve — That’s irrelevant.

    As J2TP noted, we’re talking about Calvary Chapel.

    Fact is, Chuck promulgated this.

    Who cares what other churches are doing.

  142. Steve Wright says:

    LOL – Chuck promulgated a church government structure that already existed before he did, one that promotes the independence of the local church, and authority within the local pastor and local board of directors.

    And therefore deserves blame and scorn at the time of his death for all the harm done by local pastors in those independent churches.

    It really is fascinating. Some CC pastor in Iowa is a rogue with the money and a bully to the people, the people put up with him and refuse to give him the boot or leave the church and somehow Chuck Smith deserves at least some blame – though he certainly did not teach men to be rogues with the money or bully the people. In fact, he taught men to love the people and to have as little to do as possible with the money.

    Like I said. Fascinating. But every idle word the Lord Jesus will take account of when we are judged by Him. So if the Lord wants to tell me then I was wrong to point these things out to those judging Chuck at the time of his death, I guess I will one day find out.

  143. Gary says:

    Chuck taught by example. He was good natured, friendly and giving. But he had a college education. A real one. He never required his followers to get that formal education. Instead he just sent them on their way with his blessing. This lack of discipline and maturing under authorities and the rigors and constraints of the college campus required no accountability. No proving. Naïve, well intentioned young believers were set up for failure. Only the few truly good hearted with strong character overcame the test of power.
    On the job training is no training. Just imagine this happening in the field of doctors or even mechanics.
    Yes, Chuck is ultimately accountable for his charges. Not in the minutia but in the fleecing of the flock. Time will hold him accountable. And it’s sad because he’s such a likable guy.

  144. Lutheran says:

    Not sure what Chuck’s college degree(s) has to do with anything else.

    Weren’t his degree(s) in Engineering, anyway?

  145. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Steve,

    Your just a CC shill, I wouldn’t expect an honest critique of anything CC if your life depended on it.

  146. I stand with Steve and I like his comment above “Some CC pastor in Iowa is a rogue with the money and a bully to the people, the people put up with him and refuse to give him the boot or leave the church and somehow Chuck Smith deserves at least some blame.”

    This is the attitude of very small minded people.

    SolRod, you have been asked before and have never given an answer – do you know anyone first hand in all your CC experience who was abused by your old CC pastor(s)? Not just your general complaint about Pancho Juarez or how these pastors think they are higher than regular guys – but someone abused – not just the “I read about some guy.”

  147. Steve Wright says:

    Solomon, If I have a heart attack or stroke, get hit by a bus…whatever…and leave this earth sometime soon before you do….and a few folks choose to dance on my grave

    Well….hopefully there would be a couple people to come to my public defense.

    I hope you have a few people in your life with whom you have actually made a difference for Christ – like Pastor Chuck did for me and so many others. And that you too would have such folks come to your defense.

    Of course, that assumes first people would be criticizing you in the face of the people who loved and cared for you on the week of your death – and I doubt anyone would be so unkind.

    Like I said above…let everyone be led by the Lord in what and how they share their thoughts and opinions on ANY subject – and we’ll trust the Lord to deal with us all sometime down the road. None of us are the other’s servants – we have One Master only.

  148. Ej says:

    And all the hen house drama spewed upon this thing over the past many years…. Any of you regulars here ever stop to think about the thousands of readers, Christian and otherwise lost who have innocently stumbled upon this place and been negatively impacted by all the hate, anger, bitterness, revenge seeking, holy stone throwing, limb-chopping and grave-spitting insanity that plays itself out here?!

    You’re so busy talking about how pastor chuck has hurt the church, you don’t even see how you’ve hurt it/are hurting it! Though I know you’ve convinced yourself this place is some sort of refuge…

    I certainly wish my eyes had never seen this place. You people are no different than the mess folks have to wrestle with out in the world; you just sport the cloak of Christianity and pretend your feast tastes all the more sweet; spicing up what you’re dishing with verses about love and forgiveness as if; when all this meal does is turn stomachs and cause people to stagger home, tripping, stumbling and even falling!

    Abuse?! I know of no abuse within CC personally, but I will say this place definitely, for all its supposed good, abuses the believer and unbeliever alike with its duty bound nonsense of stripping people down and chaining them to a pole in the town square for young and old to gawk at and ponder, to spit and kick at if they are inclined! And now you have reached a new low, the parading of a corpse not even begun to rot!

    If this place is, as you proclaim, Jesus led, you make Jesus look like a creep who serves up crap!

    And that is my contribution to the hen house!

  149. Apologia77 says:

    Ej you said things with good words that I wish I was able enough to say. In most places in the world Christian is hated and so in those place being Christian counts for being in control of how you behave. Jesus said love one another, seek to be obedient to the word, be humble and listen to teachings, do good to our enemies and those who hate you. Yes I tell you even today men and women and children are violated, beat, spit at, wounded and killed today by people who hate them. They are not making internet sites of hate. Or making revenge. They are having to show difference with Jesus because Jesus tells us that life is not our own and what happen to us not important as what we do in return, when we know better. It is no mystery how to live godly way since it is written yet it also tell me to mind what i do not what my brother or even my enemy do.

  150. Apologia77 says:

    Ricky I don’t even know how to answer the things you say. I dont know why you bring up homosexuals but it explain some things if you are one. I can tell you not only calvary chapels think homosexual is sinful. Bible even says that those who indulge this sin are given up to debased mind and futile thinking and i see this in your writing and anger. You need repent of that. Even Paul says ‘some of you were like this’ but repentance change things.

    I dont know why you would expect to come to christian forum to talk about the bible encouraging homosexuality and hate against christians and expect to be taken serious. It doesnt make senses.

    Now you call me a bunch of words that im going to have to look up but you call me selective fundamentalist. I am fundamental christian and fundamental about the bible and you dont know what i believe or do not. But by your prescription the selected fundamentalist is one who take the bible where he likes it and ignore where he doesnt like it. So you are selective fundamentalists too? You want be fundamental about the rights you think it give you but not about laying down rights. You are fundamental about what it says for others to be like but not what it says for you to be like. You are fundamental for every else to repent for you but not to repent yourself. You want to be fundamental for rules on pastor this and pastor that and you quote verse to prove it, but ignore whole chapter on how you are to be. And you think homosexualis good thing? You dont know what you are talking about. You are like atheists so familiar with all the thing in bible that they can use against christians but not prepared to live equally by same standard. I tell you what i believe mr know everything and know nothing. I believe that christians try to follow word of god as guidelines and sometimes fails and makes mistakes. I believe they should respect pastors and leader who try to do they best whether they good at it or not because their heart is to serve god and they one day answer him. I believe if christian dont like church he shoulds leave. But i believe he should not be gossip, store hate and the route of bitterness. What i believe god word say to me stops me from thinking i can do what you do and still be right with god. Yes, some people do bad thing in ministry. If it is crime, take it to police. But if not a crime then pray for them and do better than them even they hate you. You need to read bible properly and believe it, and repent and be saved. Bible says you cannot be homosexual and expect it to not have terrible effects on you. Sorry for my bad english when i am upset or writing fast.

  151. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Steve,

    Point taken

    MLD,

    Actually I do know someone who was finacially abused by a CC Pastor but remember pastoral abuse is not just physical or sexual but spiritual as well and I know many of those vicitims. For example ex asst pastor of a CC gets fired because he gently confronted the Pastor and told him that they need to get back to basics because the Pastor had become a Rock Star and the staff was getting worn out. The Church started to lift the Pastor uo way on high and the Pastor was teflon. After meeting with the Pastor wednesday night the assistant pastor was fired and out of the church by that Friday with no chance for good byes to those that had loved him. He is also not welcome back. I know this for a fact because that assistant pastor came to me looking for a job. The senior Pastor has been known to quickly dispose of anyone who threatens his popularity or gently challenges the way things are done there. The disposing is swift and quick and those let go are not welcome back usually. That my Lutheran friend is spiritual abuse. Pancho knows what he’s about and I have told him so.

  152. Gary, a casual observer says:

    The bottom line with Chuck is that he was God’s man. God used him for revival. Calvary Chapel is not the Jesus movement but it was a significant part of it. The Jesus movement happened all over the world. No one ministry should dare claim ownership. A lot of mainline churches saw revival too. But there’s no denying that Chuck was as involved as anyone. I watched a movie about Spurgeon and I saw some parallels to Smith. The movie ignored any negatives about Spurgeon but of course he must’ve had his shortcomings.
    Calvary Chapel is still doing what it has always done best- propagate the gospel. I know because my brother is the best example. He’s also a prime example of how the Jesus movement is a mile wide and an inch deep. That’s part of the legacy of the Jesus movement too.
    Easy believism is there too but God knows His own and He is able to finish what He starts.

  153. Michael says:

    Apologia,

    RB is not a homosexual.
    Period.

  154. Apologia77 says:

    Michael, if you say so then I have to believe it. Evidence was contrary. I just said it as it appears.

  155. lordtheoden says:

    @ # 41—–who said :
    ” But to EQUATE the hurt caused by someone else as if it was caused by Chuck is not fair or accurate.”
    ____________

    I would disagree with your assessment. Many, many ( yes probably thousands ) have been hurt by the “system” which Chuck created- The Moses Principle as set forth in CC “doctrine”. Through this system so many pastors have been given too much power and accountability, which is not only unfair to the congregation they “oversee” but unfair to the pastors as well-especially young pastor, which CC is known for raising up and turning loose with a dove on their strip mall office space “church”. It has in many cases led to prideful, control freak, ” I hear from God more closely then the sheep”, ” if you don’t like it there’s the door, closed financial books—attitudes. Chuck Smith started that “doctrine” because he was tired of being told what and how to do things by those who at the time had authority over him, so he got rid of that authority. This has caused problems over the years and many would say its even biblical. We also know that board members and “elders” are often close friends and pals of the pastor, most who would never bring a charge against the pastor even if he was wrong. CC also has been responsible for the cult of personality pastor.
    Yes I believe Smith was a godly man and God used him for His own glory in seeing sinners saved, but it was in spite of these errors. And yes those errors passed down to a generation of pastors have been responsible in hurting MANY.

  156. lordtheoden says:

    Correction to above ” too much poer and UNaccountability

  157. lordtheoden says:

    Oh brother…I guess I should read and edit before I hit the post button–sorry folks.

    Correction- to #157 …
    ” ” too much power and UNaccountability” and

    ” his has caused problems over the years and many would say its even UNbiblical. ”

    forgive me for the clutter !

  158. Reaching For My Wallet says:

    Even money says they’ll take an offering at Chuck’s memorial service.

  159. RFMW says:

    Actually I’m surprised they haven’t announced anything since their Oct 3 posting that said “A public memorial service will be announced soon”. Could that be indicative of anything?

  160. Michael says:

    RFMW,

    It will be on Oct 27.

  161. filbertz says:

    Ej,
    by the tone and tenor of your words, you fit right in here. I, too, like my indignation served up hot with a side of sarcasm. Belly up to the table, brother.

  162. John Schmidt says:

    @ #157 lordtheoden said:

    “Chuck Smith started that ‘doctrine’ because he was tired of being told what and how to do things by those who at the time had authority over him, so he got rid of that authority.”

    We’ve all heard over and over the wonderful story of how Calvary Chapel started in 1965 with a wounded church that had only 25 members until Chuck came along, and then it grew so phenomenally because Chuck was able to listen to God better than any other pastor before or since, etc.

    The part they leave out is that the reason the church had dwindled to 25 discouraged members in the first place was a squabble over the prior pastor’s disobedience and deception of the church board. His name was Ralph – I don’t know his last name. It was a small church, and they couldn’t afford a big salary, but the board made an agreement with Pastor Ralph that they would retain him as pastor provided he devoted himself to the job full-time. Ralph agreed to these terms. However, they at some point discovered that Ralph was holding down a full-time job somewhere else behind everybody’s back. This is what broke the church, leaving it with only 25 members.

    I guess it wouldn’t do to share that, given that Ralph’s unethical actions re the church board was multiplied a hundred times over by Chuck Smith.

  163. Chile says:

    Re: Dave @ 96 said,

    “The often-mentioned two weeks was because I was in Alaska, and nothing could start before I returned. The day I returned, you ran the byline, “Dave Rolph And Chuck Smith Are Liars.” That made it impossible for me to continue to push for resolution. My key witness had gone off the rails. I still wonder what could have happened had you exercised some patience and restraint.”

    Dave, with all due respect, I don’t know anyone who buys this. It is you and Chuck who should have exercised some patience and restraint. Both you and Chuck should have kept to the stated deadline, or communicated clearly in a timely manner if there was reason to delay the deadline you set.

    The responsibility lay with you and Chuck, not RB. When you did not act in a timely manner, then you should have apologized and rectified the situation quickly, and as publicly as necessary.

    This is blame shifting with a smile and an offer to buy lunch. It’s not becoming nor believable.

    Chuck didn’t just say something “ill-advised” from the pulpit, he showed his true colors in that situation. He also made it clear that he was irresponsible in not finding a way to communicate with RB, when he claimed his email “didn’t go through.” We all use email and we all know that is a lame excuse. We also know he had RB’s phone number, which he should have used immediately. There’s simply no excuse.

    Dave, I get it that you respect Chuck and want to defend him; but I exhort you to be very careful and honest with yourself if you are committing idolatry.

  164. covered says:

    Chili, very wise words. I agree 100%. If Dave was gone and Chuck got sidetracked, surely they realized it was important enough to delegate someone to make a call to RB. Why not Janet the Atty? She could have called if for no other reason at least to let RB know that they weren’t blowing him off. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons for getting back to RB was to report if there was any chance of reconciliation with his mom. That in of itself made the 2 week time period important enough to get back to RB.

    It bothers me when men I respect act more like me than themselves…

  165. Chile says:

    Thanks, Covered.

    I don’t even think Chuck should have even thought of delegating this. If this isn’t a priority, then what is?

    Just time to face the facts and no longer play the “shift the blame” game. So much was at stake. It was unkind and unwise to have missed the deadline they set themselves. It was even more brutal that they didn’t communicate in a timely manner and apologize profusely for their negligence to RB. That situation and the lack of action on the part of Chuck was very telling.

    I know … it’s time to mourn and not analyze, but Rolph’s comments brought it back up and reminded me that Chuck took to the grave what he could have and should have done while he was still alive.

  166. Steve Wright says:

    urged on by all those around you saying you were being duped and manipulated, leading to that blow up post of everything that was in process
    —————————————————————-
    Exhibit A

  167. Gary says:

    The blogosphere is a good example of the verse that says your secret sin will find you out. Who knew that I would find out so much info about CC, et al so many years after I went there. It’s like Hans Brinker. I wasn’t even looking. I had been away and lost interest or forgot. It’s like I get to go into Club 33. Very inter-es-tink! I’m glad there are those with differing perspectives. It’s a who dunnit and I can choose my own adventure.

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