The CCA Makes It Official

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66 Responses

  1. The New Victor says:

    With this opaque explanation, I’m not sure I trust sending my kids to CC camp later.

  2. Michael says:

    Victor,
    I think that’s why they made it so vague…

  3. JM says:

    One thing I remember saying outloud (perhaps too many times?) is that too many CC guys are woosies! This particular group cannot “own” completely that PFM is not conforming to their “standards” (whatever that means), so they have to pass it off as something their fearless leader, “The Chuck”, would want! They are too much cowards to deal with pushback. Can you get anymore worthless than that? So many of the CC guys on both sides of the divide couldn’t find their gonads if they had a map lit with neon! I’m sick of leaders who take the job and then lead others into their own stupidity because they have no mind of their own. This is just another symptom of their rationalized idiocy and group think.

    We have a saying/theory hereabouts. We call it the “Iceberg Theory”. In this case it would mean that, what you are seeing may be appalling, but it also may be only the top 10% of the underlying cesspool of disfunction or corruption.

    Michael, if you were to quantify all the information that you have not been able to publish about CC (and highly related matters), what percentage of the overall amount would you give it?

    Secondly, have you assumed that there is even more rot that is still well-hidden inside of CC that is yet to be uncovered?

  4. Michael says:

    JM,

    For various reasons we’ve probably published less than a quarter of what we have.
    I think corruption is epidemic in more areas of the church than not at this point.
    I also think CC is increasingly irrelevant in the bigger picture of American evangelicalism.

  5. JM says:

    Michael, thank you for your answers.
    I have been to other churches & denoms &”epidemic” is an apt description.
    I assumed a great amount is still unpublished-but that’s quite a bit.
    I agree that CC has “had its day”.
    Like most groups, it became about self-preservation (an end to themselves), more than the Gospel.
    Thanks for your postings!

  6. Will Whosoever says:

    As a long time CCA pastor (soon to be ex) my conscience has been grieved once again by the board of CCA. CCA has become known for who they ‘disapprove’ of more than what they are doing as a ‘movement’ which is not really a great movement at all, compared to other ministries today. However, PFM has impacted the world (literally) with their ministry and the lone allegations have come from McClure’s married granddaughter who went to her grandfather (Don) to complain and has tried to malign a ministry that is thriving. PFM is a ministry run by fellow brothers and sisters who face immense trials and growing pains as other para-church organizations do. They have not sinned and Pastor Chuck himself, if still alive, would defend them to the death. PFM has been accountable and refuses to say a negative word in response though they have been lied about for months now. If there is rotting flesh, you can look back to January, when McClure began campaigning and stealing the hearts of PFM’s church supporter’s by calling PFM’s advance calendar dates asking them to cancel Potter’s Field’s Presentations (WHO DOES THAT?), and calling pastors together and maligning PFM. I want to finish well before Christ. I am no man’s slave. We will all stand before Him and give account one day. This is not a game. The heart of our Lord is grieved by this and I am grieved that it has gone this far. Note to all: We all serve the same Lord and were all saved & redeemed by the same blood. Which makes us one or at least should…

  7. Michael says:

    WW,
    That’s the same info I’ve been given.

  8. Will Whosoever says:

    And please note… PFM never was officially affiliated with the CCA. Don himself simply removed PFM from the CCA website’s ‘missionary page’ a while back. This ‘official letter’ just shows that they are exercising authority they never had to begin with. PFM has always maintained fellowship with ALL CC’s but not exclusively with CCA. They have engaged with ALL churches in the Body of Christ far and wide.

  9. Michael says:

    WW,
    Good point.
    Thank you for adding some clarity to this mess.

  10. WW, that was my impression about PFM as a pew sitter.

    If there’s something there, then deal with it accordingly. “Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants…” – Justice Brandeis

  11. covered says:

    I remember a time when a story like this would have generated hundreds of responses. I for one am not sad at how irrelevant CC has become.

  12. Jessica says:

    So what is PFM response at this time?

  13. Kevin H says:

    So on the first PFM post a couple weeks ago, somebody commented about the abuse and cult-like practices of PFM. Now in this thread, it would appear that there is only one known accuser at this time (Don McClure’s granddaughter). So may have that person on the other thread been Don’s granddaughter or someone who was just repeating information received from her or could it be someone completely different with their own accusations?

    If there really is only one accuser in this whole thing, then it would seem to quite foolish for the CCA to be taking such strong action based on the allegations of one person with no other meaningful testimony or corroboration. Of course, who knows what other political happenings might be going on that the CCA may not want to be let known as they could make them look bad.

    At the very least, it would seem the communication on this matter is being handled quite poorly by the CCA. If there are such serious issues that have been established with PFM, then for the welfare and protection of others it is the responsibility of the CCA to let the issues be known. If there aren’t established problems and this is all based on the uncorroborated allegations of one person, then shame on the CCA for taking such strong action that is cast out to the entire Association. Even more shame if undisclosed politics is causing them to take such action.

    One way or another, “We find that the Potter’s Field form of discipleship training and methods of ministry are not compatible with the Calvary Chapel form of ministry taught to us by Pastor Chuck”, is just a mealy-mouthed and seemingly typical way of the CCA leadership to deal with such an issue.

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It seems apparent to me that CC pewsters like nothing more than to sit under “Nazi”-like regimes and let others dictate and do their Christianity for them. If this stuff is so bad why do they sit and do nothing?

    In 2008 when the LCMS had Issues, etc taken off the air, there was rebellion in the ranks, petitions signed, church leaders advocating for the programs return and peasants with pitchforks like protests outside of LCMS headquarters.
    Within 2 years, the entire power hierarchy of the LCMS was tossed out of power and a new regime installed – all instigated over this one issue.

    CC pewsters care only for the style and care nothing for the substance of their Christian church. Any CC attendees or CC friendlies going to boycott this weekend? I doubt it.

  15. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    As is often the case, I believe you overstate to an unwarranted extreme, but I do still think there is some general truth to your statement. I think many CC “pewsters” are content to place full faith in their pastor (and/or assistant pastors and other leaders) to take care of all the “church stuff” and to do it righteously. With many it is probably their preference to do it this way rather than themselves having any part or say in the process or even finding out what is involved in the details of the processes or issues.

    And yes, many are probably attracted to the “style” of the church but they still do care about the “substance” of the church. They just trust that the “substance” is being set up right and taken care of righteously by the pastor and other leaders. In some ways this is probably commendable that people think well of their pastor and are willing to follow his lead, but in other ways it is probably taken to an unwise and detrimental excess. They don’t want to find out about problems and when they do get some inkling of them, again they just choose to trust their pastor.

  16. Seeing the truth says:

    WW,
    Sounds like you are somewhat familiar with PFM. However, the allegations do not start nor do they stop with McClure’s granddaughter. There are now allegations coming left and right from students all around the country. Pastors and parents are stepping in and pulling students out of PFM.

    The CCA needs to fully share all the information that they’ve been given. Don McClure has reportedly taken a lot of responsibility for this mess and is trying to assist in cleaning it up. A good way of cleaning it up is stop the mess from being made again.

  17. Seeing the truth says:

    By the way… I do think that last line in the CCA email is laughable. “We find that the Potter’s Field form of discipleship training and methods of ministry are not compatible with the Calvary Chapel form of ministry taught to us by Pastor Chuck”

    At face value I would normally applaud such a line. However, I just know too much information on PFM to do so.

  18. DavidM says:

    If only we “CC pewsters” had someone as insightful, wise, omniscient and courageous as MLD to lead the movement. Things would be much different, I’m sure.

    Nevertheless, the CCA is continuing to have a polarizing effect among CC churches. The divine fiat from Don M, invoking the name of Chuck, without any facts at all, is really saying, “Just do what we say, pastors.” It is insulting to any critical-thinking individual. At the same time, it is disturbing to see blind loyalty by so many CC pastors.

  19. Michael says:

    DavidM,

    Well said…I’ve never understood the blind loyalty…

  20. Michael says:

    Just a note of caution…
    On stories like this both sides will plant comments favoring their position using pseudonyms.
    I’ve heard the rumors about allegations but have yet to see one…if they exist, then the public has the right to know.

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Geez DavidM, I have given you all the ingredients – isn’t that leadership?
    1.) Ipointed to the severity of the problem and to those who contribute to it.
    2.) I gave at least a skeleton outline of what to do. Take action, talk to the fellow pewsters to make sure they are aware of the problem. Talk to you CC pastor, get him to advocate for change. Start up petitions of change in the church, both paper and online.
    3.) Organize travel for a physical protest at CCA headquarters.

    Hey that’s all I have. 🙂

  22. Michael says:

    I’ll be honest…I’ve always wished that CC people would act as the LCMS congregations did in the situation MLD is speaking of.
    Talk about a full court press…I was even involved with that one…

  23. Kevin H says:

    “Just a note of caution…
    On stories like this both sides will plant comments favoring their position using pseudonyms.
    I’ve heard the rumors about allegations but have yet to see one…if they exist, then the public has the right to know.”

    All the more reason why the CCA needs to divulge if they have significant evidence of misdeeds by PFM. Otherwise, all this crap goes on of accusations being made that nobody can confirm with any certainty, meanwhile the CCA council leadership just sits there saying, “Just trust us, Pastor Chuck wouldn’t have approved of PFM.” Everyone else is just left in the murky dark with the CCA council pretty much claiming sole privilege and sovereignty to the issue.

  24. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    Exactly.
    Well said…especially that last line…

  25. JM says:

    Because of the uber , righteous way that CC presented itself (the unsaid/said, “We are the closest you will ever get to being God’s prescription for church and doctrine”), people gave themselves over to the thinking/teaching of the Moses Model pastor. Then, many of the pewsters melded into the rest of the group that followed him. Somehow they were sure it was safe to do so despite the admonitions in Scripture to be Bereans and “test the Spirits”. No matter how “righteous” a group presents itself–one should never, ever abdicate their right to question leaders (respectfully) or constantly review what is happening around them. It is a matter of discipline and personal responsibility.

    It is sad for this CC escapee to see that groupthink with its inherent mindset of following the Moses guy over a cliff is still haunting the halls of CCs. I submit, that, part of the leaven of CC was the unseen hold it had on many people that made them afraid to go elsewhere. Because of the inferred unction of the teaching of CC, they thought if they went anywhere else–they would “go off”. (Even if they started to have problems at CC, they thought it would be worse elsewhere, so they stayed.) Though that may not fit the formal definition of a cult–it certainly belies a “cult-like” behavior and may still be why people mindlessly go along with leadership’s continued, heavy-handed style . (BTW–CC definitely does not own these dreadful behaviors!)

    As I stated above, I object strenuously to these brain-challenged leaders invoking “The Chuck”. Whatever good he may have done, he also left an example of corruption and immorality that leavened the whole lump. (To those ready to react–ALL can be forgiven with repentance—but NOBODY ever did!!!!) To use The Chuck’s name without disclaimer is the same as saying it was all okay and there is still no need for repentance by anyone. I missed the verse that says time is the remedy for unconfessed sin. I’m sure God is quite happy with leaders that put themselves above His Word while claiming to be modeling and teaching it to others. Jesus was also very happy to inform the people that they should replicate the righteousness of the Pharisees and Jewish leaders of His day. NOT! These CC nutcases never had the integrity to call sin what it was and clean out their own house, so it is insane that they would focus on another group and complain about their practices. I think they have graduated to mental disease. They deserve their own decline and they deserve the present state of mediocrity. Likewise, frankly, so do the pew-warmers who remain without taking responsibility for their own faith.

    In regards to why people do not stand up and openly object inside of CC with words and actions–some of us did and will never do it again. The hope that truth and righteousness would win over the leadership in that organization died a long time ago for may of us. You have to believe your actions will have an effect. History shows they do not and never did. Better to look elsewhere for fellowship–for a new wineskin. This one is old and CC’s own behavior has made it worth nothing. Elvis left the building a long time ago.

  26. Xenia says:

    As always, the problem with ambiguous statements is that people will always suspect the worst.

    I remember back in my CC days an “elder,” (more or less) was abruptly banished. We were not allowed to ask why and we were gossips if we did ask or speculate. We were told it was none of our business. So naturally, we all imagined this man was guilty of something really awful. When I found out later what the problem was, it was far milder than we imagined. So while the CC leadership might have thought they were showing love to the ousted “elder” by not talking about him, in fact, it harmed him. You don’t have to give all the grizzly details but you do need to tell people the general category of transgression.

  27. Michael says:

    When kids are involved…all the BS needs to immediately cease and any issues clearly addressed.
    Just the little bit of info we have presented here has taken more man hours by many folks than you can imagine…and we still have little clarity.

  28. Xenia says:

    An in my unsolicited opinion, the category given by the CCA is too general.

    But this is an internal CC problem and I should keep my nose out of it, I suppose.

  29. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    The moment concerns are raised about kids, it’s no longer an internal issue.
    This is a world wide ministry with people involved across denominational lines.

  30. EricL says:

    Maybe the CCA council should model itself after the First Presidency of the LDS. They just pick their oldest leader to become the new President and Prophet of the movement and then that fellow leads all the Mormons until he croaks, then the next oldest veteran takes over.

    I’m not sure which one has the greatest longevity in the CC leadership circle, but that dude gets the Chuck Smith Mantle (TM) and gets to speak as the voice of God to all the CC people. Mormons don’t expect their supreme leader to explain his actions because he’s doing what God told him to do. Unfortunately, I see a similarity among some in the CC tribe. Whatever the leaders say must be right.

    Okay, the comparison to Mormonism is meant to be somewhat humorous; I don’t really think they are going down that road. I doubt Don will call all the CC people to migrate to the new promised land (Hawaii??) to create a CC version of Utah. But I do think the CCA is trying to start a real denomination and that will be a hard thing to do in their tribe. And I wonder if the right model for the denomination is Moses-model of church leadership enlarged, with its top-down, fiat-style of ruling.

  31. Michael says:

    EricL,

    The second they disciplined this ministry they became a denomination whether they want to be or not.
    The battle to be Supreme Leader is is now in it’s second decade…

  32. EricL says:

    And as Michael has emphasized, since this particular issue revolves around a ministry that involves youth and missions, it is even more important to drop the top-down, fiat-style ruling and try a more open approach explaining what their problems with PFM is, so that the rest of the CC tribe can judge whether it is serious enough to shun PFM or not. Only those within the Inner Circle seem to know what the particular grievances are and whether it’s just about style and approach or if it is about something far more serious like sin and abuse.

    Is this simply a parting of ways like Paul and Barnabas? If so, then state so clearly rather than ruin the reputation of PFM by inferring far worse.

  33. Will Whosoever says:

    Michael, there are no allegations involving “kids”… The IGNITE participants are all 18+ young adults. The issue is that the so called ‘removals’ were from CC pastors who pulled their young adult children off the mission after being influenced/manipulated by Don McClure personally. Don is actually crusading against PFM.

    Again, another caveat … one of Don McClure’s sons just returned from PFM where he just sent two of his own sons to the mission field through PFM. He has been to Whitefish, MT and he endorses PFM. Don McClure, his father, now refuses to speak to him.

    McClure is ‘authoritarian’ and now he has given ultimatums to his own family members and closest friends who side with PFM. He has told them to choose him or PFM. Don is also trying to contact other ex-participants of PFM to gather any other evidence against PFM. (Which is non-existent…) This is the leader of CCA, trying to actively harm a viable ministry. If Don was under the lordship of Christ, he would fight for the unity of the faith, communicate with Mike and Pam Rozell instead of shunning them. Instead, he looks much like the Apostle Paul before his conversion, chasing down Christians and persecuting them.

    On another note, one of my kids will be attending PFM this summer and I am excited to see what the Lord will do. I trust PFM, as I do not see any issues that would warrant my own from participating in their ministry.

    I see unethical wrongdoing on the part of Don McClure who represents the entire CCA Board. I would ask that CCA board if they are aware that Don is actively trying to sully/destroy a godly para-church organization by actively calling other pastors and past participants and their relatives in attempts to deter them away from PFM?

  34. DavidM says:

    During the years of Chuck Smith, he wielded an influence over CC pastors (however unhealthy it may have been) and it was his way or the highway. As the founder of the movement, he was adored and respected and listened to. However, Don M is no Chuck Smith. He doesn’t have that sort of equity with the majority of the CC pastors. Chuck had many flaws but I saw him, many times, be gracious and forgiving and he gave people second chances. This is not to open another can of worms about the integrity of Chuck, but to point our that, if all this is true about Don M, he is not at all acting in the manner of the man he claims to represent.
    It reminds me of when Senator Lloyd Bentsen was debating Senator Dan Quayle in 1988. When Quayle mentioned that he had the same Senatorial experience as JFK, Bentsen said, “Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you’re no Jack Kennedy.” I’d say, Don M, you’re no Chuck Smith.

  35. Michael says:

    WW,

    When you’re my age everybody under 35 is a kid… 🙂

  36. Duane Arnold says:

    “We find that the Potter’s Field form of discipleship training and methods of ministry are not compatible with the Calvary Chapel form of ministry…”

    We should be very clear, this is “denomination-speak”. In the Episcopal Church we would say, “…abandoned the doctrine, discipline and worship…” It says everything while saying nothing…

  37. Pastor Sam says:

    Really? CCA continues showing their cards, and the deck is stacked against anyone who disagrees. Unanimous decision? Vote? That alone is not Chuck Smiths’ style of leadership and on that basis, the “Council” should disband and go back to pastoring their churches, except that some of the men have NO CHURCHES to pastor. They are no longer pastoring anyone but ruling by force and cruelty.

  38. Xenia says:

    The moment concerns are raised about kids, it’s no longer an internal issue.<<<

    The letter doesn't mention kids, but now that it's been suggested, I imagine people will think the worst.

  39. Michael says:

    Xenia,
    The ministry is all geared to young people.

  40. lotsaquestions says:

    There are some things missing here. If I am reading between the lines correctly, DM never followed Mt. 18 concerning this issue. Never followed the most basic biblical tenants in dealing with differences and alleged sin. Instead, he went about as a tale-bearer trashing the people in this ministry based on insinuation. Is that correct? And what, pray tell, is “the Calvary Chapel form of ministry taught to us by Pastor Chuck”? So did all the various other ministries CS endorsed across the years follow that form of ministry? Of course not. There was never anything systemized or organized about it. If this isn’t all about power, you could fool me.

  41. Tobe says:

    Spot on JM! Many of us x-cc guys have been “suicided” for daring to look behind the curtain and seeing the cc hierarchy was rigged and manipulated…

    “In regards to why people do not stand up and openly object inside of CC with words and actions–some of us did and will never do it again. The hope that truth and righteousness would win over the leadership in that organization died a long time ago for may of us. You have to believe your actions will have an effect.

    History shows they do not and never did.

    Better to look elsewhere for fellowship–for a new wineskin. This one is old and CC’s own behavior has made it worth nothing. Elvis left the building a long time ago.”

  42. Steve says:

    Is is possible, PFM went reformed? I know reformed thinking was never welcome with Chuck. also the potter clay metaphor is a favorite in reformed circles so just throw this question out to the group.

  43. Michael says:

    Steve,
    The cat woke me up.
    PFM is not Reformed .
    I’m going back to sleep now.

  44. Kevin H says:

    But maybe your cat is Reformed and was predestined to wake you up so that you could answer Steve’s question in a timely fashion.

  45. DavidM says:

    Kevin H, good one!!!

  46. JM says:

    Tobe, I had to come to the sad realization that the corruption inside of CC was not unique to the many CC churches I attended, but rather systemic. That’s when I was able to look about and see that there were many walking wounded who were former congregants just like my family. They, too, were strewn about as a result of CC’s rationalized, unchristlike practices. Further, and to my surprise, was the untold amount of pastors who had suffered in horrific ways as a result of their tenure with CC. Some lost everything and never recovered. Our host here has such a story.

    I hope enough time has passed that you and your suffering (pastoral?) brethren are doing better. It was not God who wounded all of you. It was those who initially did not have their own mind about things that graduated to full complicity with the Moses Model and then found it easy to cross over into a personality cult of “The Chuck”. Chuck should not have allowed this sort of idol worship (aka: idolatry)–but he did. While he did not do all the dirty–he never stopped it–even when he was completely aware. He had disgraced his own office and–to save himself–did not stop others who also disgraced the precious office of pastor. He allowed the dishonoring of that sacred duty even against the Biblical mandate for godly behavior–again to save himself.

    The Bible says that when you know the right thing to do and you do not do it–it is sin (James 4:17) and that teachers/pastors will be judged the more severe (James 3:1). If that’s what Scripture is telling us hen we are in good company to stand our ground and demand repentance from sinning leaders. The “God’s Anointed” slobber was a fraud upon the people! Why were these leaders ever allowed to be above the Word of God? None of us should ever allow fast-talking leaders to deflect from their own willful, “moral failures” (aka: sin) and make us feel at fault. Before the throne of God, we are all the same. These “anointed” half-wits need to get that memo.

  47. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    Sadly, my cats have not yet taken the Anglican way…

  48. Steve says:

    Curious, Regarding the reformed stuff, how does a non reformed person understand the golden chain of redemption in Romans? Chuck seemed to ignore these tough passages in scripture. PFM can’t help but put focus on these scriptures so to me I thought maybe Mike and Pam got the reformed bug. I believe Michael that they did not convert but it seems to me if they did they might find an accepting new home. However this is probably over something even more stupid like whether the pastor is allowed to have a can of beer on occasion. All the more reason Pappa Don McClure owes some explanation.

  49. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Everything I know to this point indicates that this mess has nothing to do with theology at all.
    It has a lot to do with money and power.

  50. Steve says:

    Michael,

    I believe you. I’m trying to be gracious to both PFM and CCA. However if this is all about power and $$, CCA has pretty much completely disqualified themselves as honest brokers of truth at this point. Probably nothing new to some folks here but I’m still trying to get closure on all this crap.

  51. Michael says:

    Steve,

    The CCA was founded on lies and it’s been about power from Day 1.
    If you haven’t done so, I would have you read all the articles I’ve posted from the start…there are no honest brokers involved…

  52. Steve says:

    Sad, there is no repentance. I’m also glad I’m free from their grip though. I’ll take freedom over tyranny.

  53. Sylvia says:

    I was pretty convinced that the ministry that comes into churches and has the dude form a tall creepy pink thing on stage while the wife caterwauls soulfully into a microphone had become Reformed!

  54. Matt says:

    The word from the East Coast Pastor’s Conference was that the break is over authoritarian style discipline or “mentorship” (maybe cultish, shepherding movement type stuff) that Mike and his wife are using against the students. They said the board and other leaders are working to rein in Mike and they weren’t telling everyone to pull back their kids who are in the field but CCA no longer felt they could put their stamp of approval on the ministry .

  55. Tobe says:

    Thank you JM for your kind words of comfort! By His stripes, we ARE healed!

    Blessings!

  56. pstrmike says:

    Matt,

    Perhaps you are only sharing what you heard, but mentoring is not a cultish practice. If this is like the Shepherding Movement of years ago, where the disciple was told what to and when to do it, then that is a concern. Anything else that you can add?

  57. Steve says:

    Cultish, sheparding type movement stuff and CCA authoritarian Moses model leadership have more in common than apart. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black if this is what is going on. Nothing more than pyschological projection.

  58. Kevin H says:

    I think I can shed at least a little but of light here. I can’t speak to Don McClure or most of the other council members, but I can say this about Joe Focht. Before Joe became a regular at CC, he was significantly involved in a very strongly authoritarian, communal, cult-like, shepherding movement. Even more so than Shiloh. He eventually realized the problems with that group and left it and since then has regularly spoken badly about them. Now the ironic thing is that he then joined up with CC which can have some of the same issues with autoritarianism and cult-like mannerisms, but to a lesser degree. But it would seem with Joe that there is a strong sensitivity towards any authoritarianism or shepherding-like behavior that goes anywhere beyond the CC “limits”. And that could play into the strong reaction of the CCA council towards PFM if that is in fact one of their main concerns.

  59. Kevin H says:

    little “bit”, not little “but”….. or “butt”. Come to think of it though, I guess my butt is on the smaller side. 🙂

  60. Steve says:

    Kevin, I think you hit the nail on the head. It explains a lot. Not sure what the CC “limits” are but I think Joe is probably realizing CCA has got issues and at least this makes him feel better about himself. But it is very ironic indeed.

  61. pstrmike says:

    Aaah Gospel Outreach and the Apostle Jim Durkin . . .

    I wonder if Joe was an ice cream salesman?

  62. Jerod says:

    Sylvia…

    Classic. Pithy, concise, and a little bite.
    Off to bed and laughing down the hall!

  63. YHWH is love. says:

    Proverbs 26:17
    If this doesn’t concern you, stop participating. Please. The body of Christ doesn’t need to continue dividing. We are Christians. We are little Christ’s. We should look like it. Jesus our rabbi, our savior, our God, said, “They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.” So please, stop grabbing dogs ears. Stop participating in gossip. Love your brother and sister. The Lord hates divisiveness so ask yourself and prayerfully consider if you’re joining in on what the Lord hates!
    Ephesians 4:1-6
    Proverbs 26:17
    Colossians 3:14
    1 Corinthians 13:4-7
    1 Corinthians 13:11
    Philippians 2:1-11
    1 John 3:16
    1 John 4:7-8
    Proverbs 6:16-19
    Proverbs 6:14-15
    Proverbs 10:12

    Dear brothers and sisters please read these verses and consider. This stuff is petty and sad to me. How can we hate the church? The bride of Jesus! Our own body! Please I’m hurt! If only you all knew the pain this can bring! Our Savior told us to go into the world and make disciples. He didn’t tell the world to make disciples of us. I didn’t leave the world so I can be discipled by them. “If you then be risen with Christ. Seek those things which are above.”

  64. Michael says:

    YHWH is love.

    I’m guessing you meant to send this to Don McClure.
    We don’t make the news, we just report it…

  65. uvy says:

    pstrmike and Matt,
    I know first hand as a parent that what is happening is this and I am copying this from pstrmike’s post above on 5/22/19: Perhaps you are only sharing what you heard, but mentoring is not a cultish practice. If this is like the Shepherding Movement of years ago, where the disciple was told what to and when to do it, then that is a concern. What is happening in Ignite 2.0 is heavy handed discipleship, chastising men, rebuking these young adults for hours. They are told they can’t have relationships outside of the ministry. There have been several “inter commune” marriages. They are told where to work, when to work and for how long. Many have worked 70+ hours a week for dollars. They have to sign agreements and donate 20 hours above the 40+ they actually work. This atmosphere is definitely cult like! Anyone still in ignite 2.0 needs to leave this environment!

  66. Smith says:

    As a young guy that went through Ignite with PFM, I stand with the CCA.

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