The CCA Narrative of the CC Split

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160 Responses

  1. Erunner says:

    Appears to be an attack of Brian Brodersen 25 minutes in.

  2. Stephen says:

    I’m only at 20:00 and send m hearing “Those young guys don’t know who WE are. Who are THEY to teach us?’

    Pride filled “Don’t touch the Lord’s annointed.”

  3. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am 50 min in and I think it is really good. He is reading to his congregation all of the letters going back and forth.
    I am sure he will fall on the CCA side, but he is at least explaining to his group (1) how CC has been set up and (2) what affiliation means (3) going over both sides of the split – and he is honest enough to call it a split (4) and where it is heading. He even speaks to some of his controversial associations he has had.

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I suggestted a couple of weeks ago that all CC pastors should do exactly what this guy is doing – (I will need to go back and look at his name.)

    Boy did I get blowback in favor of keeping the CC congregations in the dark.

    This guy has taken the bull by the horns, confronted the current situation so his people can walk in the light. And, his congregation at least knows much more than most of how the CC system works and they are aware that there is some trouble in River City … and that is good.

  5. Stephen says:

    Perhaps, but (I’m only at@27:00) everything I’m hearing is mis-interptetations and unfounded accusations of the facts when it comes to BB.

    Which brings the hearers to false conclusions…

    Let’s see what the next 40 minutes brings.

  6. Bob Sweat says:

    I will agree that he is reading verbatim what was said, but he continually stops and spins it. But don’t we all?

    Bottom line, it is an attack on what BB is doing. I find it interesting that while the CCA guys attack, BB takes the high road.

    My question is, is the fight over “Distinctives”, or assets?

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    He seem to make it clear that the fight is not over doctrine but over methods. That doesn’t seem to be out of question.

    I do agree that they should be united a little bit more as to who gets to occupy the pulpit and speak at the conferences.

    The point was that he did not just ignore the situation. In the end “spoiler alert” he says they have not made a decision — but he did point out that he has already been removed from the .com website.

  8. covered says:

    While this guy is reading verbatim what has been written by both sides, he is definitely putting on a spin against Brian. He also shared why he thought Brian may be at odds with him but he didn’t seek a direct answer from Brian which is strange. There’s no doubt where he stands.

    The reality is, there are several pastor’s who share his view and several who will side with Brian. I also believe that there are quite a few on the fence.

    Also, to Brian’s credit, he has handled his end with grace and I’m not sure that can be said of the CCA guys.

  9. Steve says:

    I found it interesting at min 45 that Chris Q. is saying that his church was removed from the Costa Mesa online church locator. Apparently he didn’t ask to be removed and I thought BB said existing CC churches would be grand fathered in but in this example the church was removed automatically.

  10. Stephen says:

    Bob,

    Unfortunately he neglected to read some of the comments in the entire conversation which gives a false impression.

  11. Stephen says:

    Bob,

    Unfortunately he neglected to read some of the comments in the entire conversation which gives a false impression.

    And MLD,
    The CCA has went on record as saying this is not about methodology. So now they are sending mixed signals again

  12. covered says:

    MLD, I think this guy is a good representative of many if not the majority of the CC pastor’s. I can’t help but notice that there seems to be an arrogance with this particular side. For me, that is a problem. The whole idea that the guys with 10+ years on the pulpit have all the answers is nonsense. I am curious and surprised that Wayne T is not on CCA’s list and would be curious to know why. I know that many like to spoon with Wayne for some reason.

    What was your take on the Allistar Begg comments MLD?

  13. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Stephen,
    So???

    Let’s assume that they CCA is totally corrupt, wrong, thick headed — and they may be, they aren’t my guys. But assume they are – why are some guys who shout them down still sitting on the fence?

    From that view isn’t the choice obvious – BB is the man and CCA is the stinkers – why would anyone sign up on both lists?

    In Lutheranism, you are not both LCMS and ELCA. So the one’s who think CCA is lying through all of this – what advantage do they have with this sort of dual citizenship?

    Is CC really so schizophrenic?

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    covered,
    “What was your take on the Allistar Begg comments MLD?”

    He wouldn’t be speaking at an LCMS event – 😉 — and he may be a very wonderful fellow.

  15. Erunner says:

    You can’t help but see the anti BB bias from Chris. All I can figure is that lines are being drawn. I’ll keep reading here for updates.

  16. covered says:

    MLD, I was referring to the Bob Coy comments and the idea that no one there wanted to address it. I thought that he was addressing the white elephant in the room which is rarely done within this group. Also, it sounded like Chris Q was missing Pastor Chuck which is understandable but to be bothered that Chuck wasn’t the main topic was a bit strange.

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    covered – I had no reaction to the Begg comment about Coy – vs Chuck.. I don’t have a dog in the fight. My concern was about pastors who refuse to inform their congregations that trouble is brewing.

    CC pastors have this phobia of gather the clan together to just talk about things – about their church, about the CC association – about future leaders. No, one well know CC pastor may show up here and say – “we don’t need a meeting – they can just come up and ask me.”

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    covered – what did you think of the Bob Coy comment?

  19. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    There was one really funny line in the video that relates to the other thread and the fact that Bob Caldwell is some big influential pastor in the group.

    So the speaker is saying that Wayne Taylor was replaced on the council by “some guy named Bob Caldwell” – here is a bif CCA supporter who has no idea who Bob Caldwell is.

    At least I found it funny. 😉

  20. Captain Kevin says:

    I fell asleep after about the 8 minute mark.

  21. Michael says:

    Some comments for clarity.

    Quintana being surprised that he was removed from Brian’s database is about as real as my surprise that Heitzig didn’t send me a Christmas card.

    Cypress has been at the front of the anti-Brodersen parade for a long time.

    Whether he aligns with CCA is another question…Don McClure threw his comrade George Bryson out of CC altogether…with his reason being a blatant lie.

    Bryson’s sin was that he told everybody then what I’ve been telling them ever since…Chuck Smith hated the whole CCA concept.

  22. Michael says:

    Wayne Taylor is still on the CCA council as of today.

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – perhaps you can shed so light here – in light of the CCA being, what was the theological term I used earlier? – oh stinkers. why would the pro Brodersen guys want to align with both? What is in the CCA goodie bag that these pastors see that we common folks don’t?

  24. Jerod says:

    This may make little sense, but I’ll try to flesh it out, or flush it out, as the case may be. I think this split mirrors the Presidential election in so many ways. Better to let it disintegrate. If BB is led by the Holy Spirit, who’s going to stop him? Or the CCA for that matter? I think Chris is and is remaining on the conservative side of the split. As he stated though, he has had conferences and speakers there critical of both sides of Calvary, so there may not be too much love between him and any of them.

    This may be God flipping Hegel on his head. Two sides that can’t agree with problems at both ends because of the Mega Moses Model, let them burn and remove the remnant from it, then create a “New thing”, which would be the old thing, that being adherence to what the Bible says solely.
    What I mean is, perhaps God is doing Jeremiah’s Potters house object lesson on Calvary Chapel at large.

  25. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I think it’s very difficult for anyone outside the movement to get a handle on this.

    The CCA has big names on it that these guys grew up believing were examples to them of what men of God looked like.

    The narrative the CCA spins is that they were Chuck’s choice…and who among them would choose against Chuck?

    All the information I’ve posted for three years utterly confounds them,because for three years these same guys told them there was no split… it was all love, unity, and honey muffins.

    Now, the split is real and somebody dropped the honey muffins on the floor.

    This is a group used to being told how and what to think by one voice and they have no experience in conflict resolution or independent thought.

    It’s a cluster bleep.

  26. Just A Sheep says:

    Who is he speaking of as the young guys from the conference?

  27. Jerod says:

    Surprisingly, I agree with almost everything Chris said. I don’t think he’s saying, “Who are you to lecture us?”
    Many of the points brought up at NWPC were valid. What I think is important is what he didn’t say. What he didn’t say is that most of the people coming up are not as scripturally read as the guys they are replacing, so for them to be replacing elders in lieu of younger guys who consider one of the CC Distinctives to be biblio-idolatry and who are seemingly consumerist driven, seems very premature.

    Also, if I’m not mistaken, many of the associate pastors are not grassroots, so to speak, but transplants from other cities. It is my understanding that if one is going to run the Moses model there should be a Joshua and Caleb being brought along from that flock, not a transplant with little or no connection to the flock and community at large. This is a problem, as many of the older generation pastors and elders seem to be having issues relating to the younger congregants, and vice versa. Most of the older generation is hung up on style and presentation of the service, from wardrobe to lights. But most of the younger generation want, I agree with Duane here, authenticity. This is why seeker sensitive, imo, doesn’t work, because it is not honest about the culture and its conflict with the truth of the gospel, nor can it be because in order to keep attracting you must keep changing your attractant, but what attracts is in conflict with the Bible. Many of the younger generations have no issues with the homosexual agenda, with interfaith endeavors or even interfaith worship – which to my humble knowledge is a hangup for the older gen, especially along RCC and ” evangelical” lines, but not so much for the younger being brought up in a culture of conflict, apparently wanting nothing to do with conflict in their spiritual lives.

    Just thinking, Thx for listening.

  28. Just A Sheep says:

    And a follow up – Who is this guy speaking? Just a random Calvary guy?

  29. Jerod says:

    A cluster bleep of honey muffins…

  30. Jerod says:

    MLD if I may speak to that I think missions and networking. A desire not to throw the babies out with bathwater, perhaps lateral growth potential.

  31. bob1 says:

    adherence to what the Bible says solely.

    Sure. It’s simple.

  32. Jim Jacobson says:

    This guys states that Wayne Taylor has stepped down from CCA… I just asked him and it’s not true. (FYI)

  33. Jim Jacobson says:

    … but facts probably don’t really matter.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod – but if one side is corrupt – how can that work.
    As I said, you can’t remain LCMS and ELCA

  35. Michael says:

    JJ,

    I clarified that above as well.

  36. Jerod says:

    Bob 1
    Sorry. Never meant to make it sound simple, but perhaps the percieved arrogance and dogmatism over things such as pretrib will find its place in the flyspaces of CC teaching. And perhaps some of the things that have been over-simplified will be more nuanced, like leadership.

  37. covered says:

    Just a Sheep, to answer your question (not that I know), but I would guess that the younger guys are guys like Fusco and Randall right off the top of my head. Michael could probably shed more light on who the up and comers are.

  38. Michael says:

    The fact is that despite Jerod’s nonsense,there has been very little deviance from the norm in Brodersens teaching.
    I know many more “liberal” than BB.

    This bunch has wanted Brodersen’s ass for years and BB gave them some ammo.

    He posted full videos explaining his positions,but those get ignored.

    In my opinion this is simply Don McClure trying to take what Chuck Smith would never give him.

  39. Jerod says:

    There seems to be the perceived ability among many including Calvary Chapels to separate hot and cold from lukewarm. It just has to be rational, not necessarily correct.

  40. Jerod says:

    Michael,
    For the record my nonsense goes both ways. Maybe we can plot it on a graph.

  41. Michael says:

    I don’t remember who spoke at that conference…

  42. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    The claim that BB is anything but CC doctrinally is pure nonsense.
    I’m tired of hearing it…it’s just a smokescreen for avarice.

  43. Jerod says:

    Michael,
    Not even trying to get nasty or confronational.

    So…You may be right. But perhaps there are some within CC who are more conservative than CC, meaning they practice what the distinctives outline, because according to BB and Steve Wright, Chuck really didn’t either, save the 5000 series.

  44. downbutnotout says:

    I believe Levi Lusko preached in 2014. He is not listed on the CCA site. But he is on the .com site. Partially picked off in the crossfire?

  45. Michael says:

    McClure is virulently anti- Lusko.

  46. Michael says:

    I just skimmed the “Distinctives” again…and what a pile of rot that is.

    The only real unique parts of it are the pretrib rapture and the Moses Model…and an absolutely horrible perspective on pastoral education.

    No wonder most don’t put that up on their websites…

  47. Michael says:

    As to verse by verse, expositional teaching…this is sure as hell not a CC “distinctive”.

    Chrysostym was doing it in the fourth century and Calvin and Co. were doing it in the 16th century.

    The Reformed were doing it 450 years before Chuck discovered it…

  48. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    and at the same time no one takes on the task to write a theses on what CC stands for and believes.
    They are satisfied with a statement of faith that fits on the back of a 4″ x 6″ bulletin – and that is about as deep as they go.

  49. Jim Jacobson says:

    @35… sorry I missed that. Nevertheless, I asked him directly.

  50. Michael says:

    JJ,

    I appreciate that…it’s better to hear it personally.

  51. Jerod says:

    I find myself in the predicament of many CC’ers

    I thought I knew which box I put those in…

    Can you elucidate the pastoral Excedrin part again?

  52. Jerod says:

    Education, not Excedrin

  53. Steve Wright says:

    The word “distinctives” has often led to confusion. There are probably more churches in the world today that are pretrib in their eschatology than there are churches still teaching verse by verse in an expositional manner through every chapter of a given book (before moving on to the next book).

    So there is nothing “distinctive” in being pretrib either – and again, plenty of pastors, churches and even a seminary or two in this country this past century before Calvary Chapel was born.

    The idea is simply that this is a feature, an attribute, of a Calvary Chapel.

    In fact, there is nothing “distinctive” about any one of those items – if one means that CC is the only place that is done or taught. But put together they were meant to be seen as a package.

    And I agree, the “explanation” of the distinctive in many cases is off the mark. Going to seminary for advanced study is not an attempt to be made perfect in the flesh.

  54. Jerod says:

    Michael,
    Btw, again, not bringing him up to be confrontational, but: is James Jacob Prasch right about Darby and Pretrib? I’ve read the excerpts from Iraneus, one of whom pretribbers use to assert that position, and he didn’t seem to say what they say he is saying. So is this a 19th century invention?

  55. Jerod says:

    Steve Wright,
    From what you know of Chuck, was he anti-intellectual? Meaning, did he think a seminary education did more harm than good?

  56. Steve Wright says:

    Jerod,

    I happen to think a seminary education, at a lot of seminaries in this nation, would do far more harm than good. Which is a shame considering the heritage of many of these formerly great institutions.

    Chuck went to Bible College, and encouraged Bible Colleges to be started within Calvary Chapel. I know a Bible College is not a seminary, but it does speak to a support of formal educational equipping.

    And no, Chuck was far from an “anti-intellectual” – though since that is a pretty subjective label, I imagine it could be defined any way one wanted to try and argue some point.

    Now, there is no doubt that there is in some men a great amount of pride in ignorance. And yeah, they love to throw the seminary/cemetery line around. But it’s a big movement. There are all sorts within it.

  57. Jerod says:

    I can see that. I remember trying to integrate Vygotsky’s theory of the zone of proximal development to the way God matures us spiritually. It was a bumpy ride.

  58. Stephen says:

    Steve Wright,

    I totally respect your stance and your experience…truly…but for those NOT in CCCM during Chuck’s days…(those that only know him by his recordings)…it would APPEAR that he was VERY anti-intellectual…his “Chuck Blocks” often referred to not needing higher education, etc…and his first batch of disciples seem to fit that mold (not having higher education).

    It does appear that what people perceive(d) about Chuck Smith were far from the truth, then…and they seem to only base their thoughts of “what Chuck did/believed” based upon those 30-60 minute blocks…where quite often he didn’t go “verse by verse,” . 😉

  59. Steve Wright says:

    Like I said, you can define it anyway you want. You can also hear the parts you want, and ignore (or maybe just not be exposed) to the other side.

    For example: ” And if you do believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and
    that it’s your duty to preach it, then, by all means, know it. Be committed to it.
    As Paul said to Timothy, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman
    that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (II Timothy
    2:15). You can be taught how to study the Bible, but the learning process is
    never ending. To the present day, I continue to commit myself to the Word of
    God and to studying the Word of God so as to show myself approved unto God.”

    Those are not the words of an anti-intellectual.

  60. Jordan Taylor says:

    First time commenting, but have been reading since this summer when Michael posted the (infuriating) panel about women in ministry from the East Coast conference. What is up with CC and panels?

    I have been following this division in CC closely as a pastor of a small Calvary in Seattle. I disagree with this video’s conclusions about Brian and CCCM. As has been pointed out, Brian has clarified his positions and so the narrative in this video is fake news. A group of us churches up here in the NW are not and will not choose sides in this…yet. However we are encouraged at the vision and direction of Brian and CCCM (even if it is clouded by off-handed statements from a panel).

  61. Steve Wright says:

    I think it is also helpful to recognize the importance of Chuck’s own experiences in how he often presented himself in later years. We all have our own backgrounds that influence us. It’s not Chuck didn’t believe in formal ministry preparation. I quote:

    When we don’t have confidence in our own power, we know that if the work is
    going to be done, it has to be done by the Lord. When I felt the call of God on
    my life to the ministry, I went to Bible College and prepared myself. While in
    Bible college, I was Senior Class President, Student Body President, and I
    developed an athletic program for the school. I really felt that I had an awful lot
    to offer. When I started out in the ministry, I was certain that I had all the
    qualifications and background to build a successful church anywhere.
    I had great confidence, but the Lord put me through the ringer. He allowed me
    to struggle for seventeen years with no success. I had to work in a secular job in
    order to support my family so I could stay in the ministry. If it weren’t for that
    sense of the call of God upon my life, I would have given up. In fact, I
    endeavored to leave the ministry on a couple of occasions, but the Lord brought
    me back. This all had to happen because of the confidence I had in my own
    abilities.The Lord allowed me to spend the prime years of my life failing, until He finally
    got me to the place where I realized that I really had nothing to offer. Then I
    began to simply lean on the Spirit and depend upon Him. It was then that I was
    able to watch God work by His Spirit. I wasn’t tempted to take the glory for what
    God was doing. He brought me to the cross and emptied me of myself and my
    ambitions.”

  62. Michael says:

    I have some responses, but am busy for a while.

  63. Steve Wright says:

    Now, where Chuck really dropped the ball, in my opinion, is in quotes like this:

    “I believe that it’s important to be prepared in the Word of God, but not
    from a purely natural humanistic standpoint. True education doesn’t come from
    the wisdom of the world, but by the guidance and the wisdom that comes from
    the Holy Spirit.”

    This is said in the context of criticism against seminary for guys already pastoring big churches who (supposedly) were ashamed of not having a degree behind their reputations. In fact, he mentions the anti-intellectual label there (and seems to wear it)

    Chuck very much promoted commentaries and other tools for Bible study. The book store at Costa Mesa (before the internet) was stocked with excellent works. I bought my Romans commentary by Charles Hodge there! My Luther commentaries on Galatians and Romans as well. There was also a LONG list of commentaries that were encouraged for Calvary pastors to buy in trying to build their libraries – and these too were solid works including many exegetical volumes I read today when I prepare. Leon Morris on The Gospel of John for example.

    Chuck could have done a better job at translating all this by reminding students that the Holy Spirit works through PEOPLE in this act of deeper Bible study, and not just within the particular pastor. He could have “connected the dots” in other words, as to why one would read commentaries in the first place.

  64. Corby says:

    MLD at #3. I can tell you, if I had done this at the CC I was pastoring, if may of the CC pastors I know were to do this, it would cause a crazy amount of confusion for the simple reason that the people in the church don’t know or care what’s happening in the broader CC world. They might not even know who Brian Brodersen is and in many cases, who Chuck Smith is, because the movement and its personalities don’t have anything to do with many individual CC cultures.

    I just started watching the video so I have no opinions yet. However, at the risk of shameless self promotion, I put up a post on my own blog trying to explain perhaps one facet of this split (culture vs philosophy vs distinctives), and some of the reasons I have hope for CCGN in the future.

  65. CostcoCal says:

    I watched the video.

    T.M.I.

    In my opinion. 🙂

  66. Stephen says:

    Steve Wright,

    I could not agree more. I, too, do lots of studying and reading…whether in prep or just to keep the brain “in shape.”

    As I once heard a well-learned and respected pastor say: “The reading man is the leading man.”

    It’s just unfortunate that people have selective hearing. I remember an uproar from several men (many from CC’s) at a Theology class:

    “Systematic Theology?!?! I don’t care what MEN say…I only care what the Bible says!”

    It took some doing, but eventually they all came to realize that reading and study is a GOOD thing…”even in Systematic Theology.” 😀

  67. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    I always respond more quickly to questions that don’t reference Jacob the Angry Sausage.
    Having said that, he might have been right on this one.

    I do not believe that there is a shred of evidence for the pretrib doctrine before the early 1800’s.
    Whenever you see Terrible Tommy Ice or one of the other pretrib apologists quote a patristic source, always go read the whole document for yourself.

    Where it will sound pretrib in one paragraph, it will sound exactly contrary in the next.

    Having said that, age does not make something true or false…but I utterly and completely reject pretribulationism…

  68. Michael says:

    Corby,

    If you’re going to promote it, a link would be helpful… 🙂

  69. Michael says:

    Do I think CC is anti-intellectual?
    Is hell hot?

    In some circles it’s rabidly anti -intellectual and Chuck is to blame.
    He didn’t consider Bible study an intellectual pursuit,but a spiritual one.
    The seminary/cemetery joke is repeated all over the movement ad nauseous.

    Far worse than his position on actual education, was his promotion of people like Dave Hunt who did untold damage to thousands of lives with his anti psychology/anti psychiatry rants that kept people from help and bound them in legalistic, pietistic, hell.

    Add to that his promotion of faux intellectuals like that crazy Missler and his crew and a bunch of untrained yahoos speaking to scientific disciplines.

    Furthermore, he should have known better.
    The staff at LIFE college when he was there was the best Pentecostalism had to offer and had actual scholastic chops.
    He got a decent education.

    Now…there are guys like Steve and my own pastor who has 2 Masters degrees from a very good seminary and is working on his doctorate from another.
    The tide has changed…but not easily.

  70. Michael says:

    Jordan Taylor,

    Thank you for coming by…appreciate that and your comment.

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The question is… why don’t they come in educated?

  72. Corby says:

    I do respect that the speaker says, “I agree/disagree” and not “WRONG!”

    I will also echo, to a lesser degree, having been at the 2014 SPC, some of those younger speakers were kind of clueless and disrespectful. I do know for a fact that one of them at best spun a story he told, at worst flat out lied, in order to sound more significant than he is/was.

    I’ve thought this since this situation started. Having also heard the audio from the Seattle conference, I think people are taking what Brian said to its illogical, almost worst-case conclusion. I think that that kind of thinking/processing, reeks of Online Discernment Ministry thinking/processing, which is very poor indeed. Statements are judged on what was left out (unsaid), and what things COULD mean, not what they actually mean, and conclusions tend to be in the worst possible sense.

    That said, it is this kind of thinking/processing that is guiding some people on the CCA and many of the churches on that side of the aisle, and how they express themselves as Calvary Chapels. It informs how one views and uses the distinctive. It informs how one evaluates other CCs. I had people come through my church with this kind of thinking and tell me “You aren’t a real CC.”

    To be fair, I respect this speaker insofar as this recording. He sounds reasonable. He sounds like you could sit down and talk about these things, and he might change his mind, as opposed to a cold hard stance otherwise. Having said that, his thinking and expression are consistent with a perspective, a point of view. But it sounds like he would be open to exploring other perspectives. Good on him. But again, that’s isolated to this one 60min video. Then again, he had Paul Smith and George Bryson speak, and will have them in the future. So, there’s that.

    Michael, I’d be interested to see more about the ousting of Bryson.

  73. Erunner says:

    I read what Corby wrote on his site and it’s excellent.

  74. Michael says:

    Corby,

    You have permission to post links whenever.
    Good article…well thought out.

    I wrote a bunch on Bryson and the CCA…just put “Bryson” in the search box on top and go backwards to the first in 2013.

  75. dusty says:

    Capt. kevin, you are funny.

  76. Corby says:

    Thanks erunner and michael

  77. dusty says:

    Michael, you are so calm. Been praying for your stress level.

  78. Michael says:

    Dusty,

    Thank you…I’m trying. 🙂

    Getting off here shortly and going to bed early…I hope.

  79. Steve Wright says:

    Here’s the thing. Because I am not trying to oversell something here and I have been very vocal in the past on the topic of education and CC. However, I have left two churches in my life, one in less than 3 months as a new believer. The other I lasted a couple years because I was serving and ministering to a bunch of people desperate for it…..but in both cases both my wife and I were getting dumber by the Sunday. And quite frustrated at the mocking attitude of true scholarship happening at both places.

    Yet somehow, I stayed at CCCM for 8 years (which was sandwiched between these two church stints). Now, I was pretty much already an A student who liked to read and study even when I was living a life of sinful debauchery (when I bothered to go to class) so forget me for a second.

    But Carl Westerlund is not an anti-intellectual and in fact is quite a scholar.
    Justin Alfred is truly a scholar as well.
    Dave Rolph as well…

    3 prominent examples of men who sought and served at CCCM, and 2 of the 3 (besides Dave) came from non CC backgrounds having already earned their higher education and most importantly (along with Dave) have shown that study is a life work.

    So all I am saying is there must be something to my defense.

    But yeah, it is a big mistake to think that just because someone invested the money and time to earn a higher degree that they are even saved, much less called to ministry.

    It is also a mistake to think that somehow the LACK of any education somehow speaks positively for a guy as somehow a spiritual giant.

  80. dusty says:

    You are doing an amazing job with all these things, these bombs, coming oit all at once.

    Sleep well big brother

  81. stephen says:

    On a tangent…apparently this was posted yesterday:

    http://www.seccpc.com/

    Looks like they threw something together at the last minute. and it looks like John Randall is getting the recognition he desires…

  82. stephen says:

    Steve Wright,

    I Absoluteley love Carl. He blew our socks off…he and his wife…and their love is overwhelming. When you spoke with either/both of them, it was like you were the only thing that mattered in the world. And his knowledge and wisdom…amazing!

    Yet, for the most part, he was sentenced to 25 years in that building with a way-too-often-mispronounced name…with no real public exposure.

    Not that he’d care…he knew his calling and ministry…and he did it faithfully and well.

    Yet, if CC appreciated educated pastors, why was he hidden away for all those years rather than brought out to bless the congregation With his teachings on a semi-regular basis? Or did he, and it’s just not commonly known?

    (FYI: I love CCCM…it’s my home church…and I love CC, in general…so I’m not trying to pick a fight or anything).

  83. Steve Wright says:

    I’d take a bullet for Carl. I love the man tremendously.

    He had a LOT of oversight of teaching specific ministries at CCCM. I answered to him in three different areas of teaching ministry there at one time.

    I hear your question, but don’t think in those terms. He was once a Sr. Pastor, and he was instrumental in teaching many men who would be Sr. Pastors blessing their congregations. That said, it is a neat thing when he teaches and I understand he has had more opportunity in the last couple of years…

    Many of my seminary professors were once Sr. Pastors too. Hey, I can think of worse things than being a such a professor to fulfill one’s calling.

  84. Everstudy says:

    FWIW, I grew up in CC Cypress, and remember Chris when he was just another “member”.

  85. The Non-Denonimational Denomination says:

    The faux humility and” folksy simplicity” of Chris Quintana is a cover for his arrogance and judgmental spirit. I have learned in ministry it’s the sweet ones, the falsely humble ones that you have to watch out for. And to sit inside the four walls of a church and teach verse by verse, word by word through the whole Bible, parroting Chuck Smith to a small group of people for years on end without trying to figure out ways to connect with your community and new emerging generations is selfish and self righteous. Jesus didn’t sit in a synangogue in Galilee for three years talking to the same people. He came to seek and save the lost. He went from village to village and town to town preaching the gospel publicly and calling people to be His disciples. I don’t think the radical, youthful, musical, cutting edge, innovative, creative, passionately evangelistic Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa of the late 60’s and early 70’s would be approved by the CCA today.

  86. Jerod says:

    Michael,
    That’s exactly what I mean by a Moses bringing up a Joshua. A Barnabus bringing along a Saul. The second generation doesn’t get the luxury of remaining biblically uneducated, but should surpass the former in biblical knowledge, the protolinguistics (sic?) of the Bible in order that they might preach/teach with more wisdom.

    As to psychology, psychiatry, I decided to stop pursuing a career in that field after I got my Bachelor’s because I believe it is so misleading spiritually, and it’s progenitors are basically anti Christ, and the science is soft (has anyone ever seen a synapse?).
    I do use many behaviorist principles, because at least behaviorism did not read one’s heart, or private events. Still, even as distanced as,I can be from psychology in my field, it did but flesh with scripture in many areas (token reward, e.g.) I am glad that my wife and I were encouraged by my pastor to let the Holy Spirit work on us through prayer and petition. It led to my healing and salvation. This is coming from having had a lot of previous subjective and objective experience in.supposed “soul care”, even under Christian counselors, who supposed that outward-inward change was a possibility. I am rambling. Sorry. Psychologisation of the faith really gets to me. G’night.

  87. Jerod says:

    I meant to say “…perhaps even learning the protolinguistics of the Bible…”

  88. Jerod says:

    Non Denominational Denomination,
    Jesus is God in the flesh, who came for the lost of Israel in real time/space. He had only his feet, boats and beasts to carry this out. Forgive my obtuse question: I am wondering if you are suggesting that all Christians be itinerant preachers?

  89. Jerod says:

    Corby
    He’s also had Roger Oakland speak with him a few times.

    Which I think is good. Roger seems as in love with Calvary Chapel Association as Michael, but for very different reasons. He critiques both sides equally, I believe. It all smells of dead fish to me. Trying to say one side of CC is uncorrupt now when before it was deemed all corrupted ( with good evidences)!is disingenuous, or just faulty. Pots calling kettles black imo.

  90. pstrmike says:

    got to the 00:51 mark and decided it would be a waste of my time, one hour and three minutes that I can’t get back……

    some tell Quintana to get a haircut.

  91. Jerod says:

    Steve Wright
    Thanks for that response.
    Moses and Joseph were both educated in the wisdom of Egypt.
    Solomon set his mind to acquire knowledge (though he did backside and typify himself as anti Christ =-0 )
    Saul of Tarsus was educated in the school of Gamaliel, and Peter deferred to him on some things.

    God can use a worldly education, but it takes true repentance and a breaking of the person to get them to give all Glory to God.

  92. Pedro says:

    This fella seems like a nice fella. But actually doesn’t actually know what he is talking about. So I guess he needs to simply pulls stuff out of his ***

  93. Pedro says:

    Is he on something?…

  94. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    You gotta love pstrmike’s typical in depth analysis. I didn’t listen to it and the guy needs a hair cut.
    or Pedro’s – ” Is he on something?…”

    And the question was “Is CC anti intellectual?”

  95. Stephen says:

    Steve Wright (and MLD, to an extent),

    I do not, in the least, disagree with you about the awesome calling to train up pastors and ministers. Nor was it, at all, to lessen the impact of Carl Westerlund and I truly hope that it didn’t come across that way.

    My basic point was to say that CC, in general, IS anti-intellrctual UNTIL someone goes to a School of Ministry under the likes of a PhD seminary grad like Carl.

    Unfortunately, from perusing other CC”SoM” programs, there are far too few.

    It would seem that the intellectuals are kept in the shadows in order to let personalities take the spotlight. While it is true that this is a good thing…That intellectuals support and assist, they rarely get to teach publicslly in lieu of the bigger personality/pastor.

    As Michael said before, that is slowly changing. However it’ll take more exposure of these kinds of men….And that will take time.

    Unfortunately, the “seminary/cemetery” comments still fill the majority of cc auditoriums to this day…

  96. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael,

    Watched it twice…

    Main take away was the statement that BB is “distancing himself from Chuck”.

    Chuck was a good man, possibly a great man, but using him as an ultimate measure of truth, churchmanship, and/or theology, bears the marks of hero worship or worse.

    I remember that as he lay dying, St. Francis told his brothers, “I have done what was mine to do, may Christ now teach you what you are to do.” Not a bad admonition.

  97. Joel says:

    ” I don’t think the radical, youthful, musical, cutting edge, innovative, creative, passionately evangelistic Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa of the late 60’s and early 70’s would be approved by the CCA today.”
    The one where Lonnie Frisbee hit gay bars on Saturday night and preached on Sunday?

  98. DavidM says:

    I’ve been a CC pastor for decades and have heard all the messages, good and bad, at the CCSPC’s since 1979. Is CC anti-intellectual? Overall, I would say yes, no question. What really gets me is that so many of the CCA guys seem so ruffled by a “deviation” from the CC theology. Yet, how many of them have any credible theological training? I don’t begrudge anyone, myself included, for not having formal theological training. But, then, let’s not speak as theologians. Pastors, shepherds, yes, but not theological experts. It is disingeuine.

    As has been said before, we need to think for ourselves. For anyone to live by Chuck’s convictions or theology is to put aside one’s own brain.

  99. Steve Wright says:

    I make a distinction above between the movement and the man on the label “anti-intellectual” – but like I said, it all depends on the definition.

  100. Jerod says:

    I don’t think Quintana holds Chuck as a model of churchmanship or theology, etc, but an example of what is/was CC. Unfortunately, maybe because Chuck and old guard CC wanted to remain non denom, without something concrete like a thesis the nondenominational denomination can only split. At any rate, this in some ways remind me of Wesley and the Methodists, in that, in his lifetime, Wesley saw what God had led him to build depart from what was was built. Ecclesiastes really is fitting in here, to me anyway.

  101. Duane Arnold says:

    #99
    David,
    I sometimes think what is labelled “anti-intellectual”, at least among some, is a defense mechanism. It is easy to say in a Bible study to say, “the original Greek means…”; it is a bit more difficult to sit an exam and conjugate 48 irregular Greek verbs! I’ve done about nine years of post-graduate theological/historical work. What it has taught me, beyond anything else, is how much I don’t know. Owing to knowing how much I don’t know, I’m a bit less strident in making absolute theological assertions especially when I know there are other valid points of view.

  102. Steve Wright says:

    A thousand “amens” to Duane’s 102.

  103. j2theperson says:

    ***God can use a worldly education, but it takes true repentance and a breaking of the person to get them to give all Glory to God.***

    Conversely, a lack of education does not in any way indicate true repentance or a fully broken spirit or that a person will give all glory to God. Education or a lack thereof are in no way indicative of how a person views their position relative to God. It’s not that difficult to find people who view their lack of worldly education as something to be proud about. They aren’t giving all glory to God any more than the educated people they castigate for being educated.

  104. Michael says:

    “Roger seems as in love with Calvary Chapel Association as Michael, but for very different reasons. He critiques both sides equally, I believe.”

    Oakland is an ignorant shill for the CCA, a wheat farmer desperately searching for significance.

    He’s theologically inept and historically ignorant, lecturing people on doctrine, damning things he knows nothing about.

  105. Steve Wright says:

    Jerod,

    A ‘worldly’ (i.e. secular) education would be my undergraduate business degree from the University of Oklahoma (which yes, has helped me in life and ministry). Not my MDiv from a wholly theologically conservative school.

    To equate a seminary education for a pastor as a worldly education or compare that to what Daniel learned in Babylon or Moses in Egypt is really missing the mark.

    In fact, it is such comparisons that aid the anti-intellectual label.

    What is infuriating is that there is such a push within CC for Bible Colleges and Schools of Ministry – and nobody thinks for a second these are “worldly” educational pursuits. But step outside the bubble and secure an accredited degree and (according to the Distinctives) one is trying to be made perfect in the flesh.

    Sometimes one does not know whether to laugh, cry, or throw a brick.

  106. Jerod says:

    I would venture to say that Roger’s missionary endeavors are very very significant to the people he serves, which include pastoral training, and are quite selfless. I think you might be calling the work of God in and through his life self serving. Might you be insinuating the work of God is a work of the flesh?

    Even if what you say has any shred of truth to it, can’t God use it? Doesnt he use you?

  107. Jerod says:

    Steve Wright
    I wasn’t trying to say that exactly. God I think uses what we come into faith with for his glory, but not until.he breaks our dependence upon our selves. If we come in with little, he does not want us to remain impoverished of knowledge. This is the main reason American Universities such as Harvard and Princeton were established.

  108. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    Oakland’s missionary work may be admirable but I shudder at the thought of him providing pastoral training.
    He has slandered many brethren and other traditions regularly and with vigor.
    His eschatological hallucinations would be amusing if people didn’t believe them.
    He is an accuser of the brethren and a threat to both unity and discernment.

  109. Jerod says:

    Hm.
    Interesting about unity. I’ve been listening to David Nathan today about the root of bitterness and unity.

    Suppose you remove the disingenuous ones whom you think are pulling power plays, keep the players who are vested in their end of the split and the pastors/churches sitting on the fence –
    how would you suggest CC gets on with unity? Not being fascicious (sic?) – contrary to how I feel about letting it fall apart, I think Unity should be maintained.

    What are priorities in this case, iyo, to maintain unity?

  110. Michael says:

    Jerod,
    I’m speaking to unity in the greater Body of Christ, especially in relation to Oakland and his ilk.
    I have people writing here from a diversity of traditions.
    We all learn something from each other and consider each other brethren.
    Attacking people from different traditions as wolves and enemies is wicked and anti- Christ.
    Calvary Chapel pastors need to see this split for what it is…a power play by a man trying to take what the founder wouldn’t freely give him.

    The methodological and theological differences are so small as to be laughable if so many were not harmed by the nonsense.

  111. Jerod says:

    Interesting

  112. bob1 says:

    “Is CC anti-intellectual? Overall, I would say yes, no question”

    “Unfortunately, the “seminary/cemetery” comments still fill the majority of cc auditoriums to this day.”

    And there it is.

    When I was in CC, I heard the cemetery one ad nauseum. How original.

  113. Steve Wright says:

    How’s this for an observation. In School of Ministry there was a guest speaker just about each week – usually a pastor from another church.

    On several occasions, to stress a point about the importance of XYZ, in the church’s ministry, a jab would be thrown at the Greek language. For example, “I don’t care how much Greek you know, if you don’t have a good food ministry…”, “I don’t care how much Greek you know, if you don’t have a good children’s ministry…” “I don’t care how much Greek you know, if you are not…”…you get the idea.

    I’m not saying EVERY guest did this…but more than a couple did over the course of two years.

    The funny thing is, no pastors who actually had a decent working knowledge of Greek ever said that. Again, not because the comparison might not be true – sure you should feed the poor and minister to the children etc.

    It’s just, when you know the value of something to the core of your ministry (which is Bible study and teaching for a CC Sr. Pastor) you don’t dismiss it casually.

    When one is ignorant on something, it is easy to be dismissive (insulting) of it. I mean, we were students, studying Greek, and learning how the original language did open up the text to a much larger and in depth understanding. And these guys were in effect insulting our effort of learning (and Carl for teaching).

  114. Josh the Beloved says:

    When you say Michael

    Calvary Chapel pastors need to see this split for what it is…a power play by a man trying to take what the founder wouldn’t freely give him

    are you referring to bb or the break away group like Raul Reese, McIntosh etc

    ??

  115. Michael says:

    I’m talking about Don McClure.

  116. DavidM says:

    #102 Amen, Duane. Anti-intellectualism can most definitely be a defense mechanism. I think by nature we want to be unfairly dismissive of what threatens us. In the context of this discussion, that might be the pastor with little formal education putting down those with educational chops. But, it is so unnecessary. It is OK to be who we are and who we’re not. As you mentioned in your article on millennials, authenticity reaches others.

  117. pstrmike says:

    @60 Jordan Taylor,

    What more do you ( and those whom you consider liked minded as you) need to hear, either officially from CCA, or messages like this from Quintana to understand that progressive thinkers are not welcome in their camp? That last letter from CCA stopped short, very short, of telling us that they preferred us to leave. That was how I interpreted it.

    They want conformity, and they are more committed to their heritage ( btw, I’ve been around since the tent days) than they are to the possibilities of where God may be leading in the 21st century.

  118. stephen says:

    @114,

    Steve nailed it and that junk used to tick me off as disrespectful to not only Carl but every man who made it through that entire program.

    My jowels tightened every time I heard it…still do, actually.

  119. The Non-Denonimational Denomination says:

    Joel

    Yes, the dirty, unpleasant truth of both the Calvary Chapel and Vineyard Movements is that the catalyst for both was a very anointed young man who struggled with homosexuality just like Paul Cain whom Chuck Smith in his early years helped coordinate crusades for. Lonnie also was the one who led Greg Laurie to the Lord and prayed for the healing of Mike Macintosh to be restored to sanity. So you can basically attribute both Harvest and Horizon to Lonnie as well. But yet, when Lonnie died of AIDS how many of these men, whose careers he helped launch, were there for him in the end? Maybe they were, I don’t know. God works in mysterious ways and uses murderers (Moses), Adulterers (David), Drunks (Noah), Liars (Abraham), Cowards (Peter), and violent persecutors (Paul) to accomplish his will. Often the formerly oppressed become the worst oppressors and the irony of the old guard CCA is that they have become worse then the Old Guard they rebelled against in the 60’s and 70’s. We all know now that those “square”, “coats and ties,” that were not “groovy” and “hip” and “with it man” were actually probably the greatest generation in American history. They won WW2, put a man on the moon, ended the Cold War, gave us JFK, passed the Civil Rights Act, and bequeathed to their spoiled college-educated children the greatest country and economy the world has ever seen. Yes, Vietnam was a mistake, but it was begun and fought with good intentions and did not deserve to be the excuse for the radical social change that has forever altered American society. The boomers left us a darker, less secure, more competitive, more secular, and more indebted world then they inherited. And when the time has come for them to exit the stage they refuse to, preferring rather to sink with the ship then embrace new, younger leadership, and an openness to a new, fresh work of the Holy Spirit. But I am so thankful that God is sovereign and that Jesus has promised to build his church and that nothing can stop him. The Kingdom will go forward with our without any of us until the end.

  120. The Non-Denonimational Denomination says:

    Is the CCA going to become the Taliban wing of the CC Movement now? Are they going to send morality police to ensure that every CCA affiliated CC is mentioning the rapture every Sunday, teaching verse by verse, word by word starting with Genesis 1:1 all the way through to Revelation? Will they issue a fatwa against a church they find out has taught a topical message? Or handle sections of the OT as narrative units? If they find out a church has used either of the McClure dreaded “smoke machines and lights” will they be blacklisted or recieve a call from a higher up? The irony of this is that in doubling down on these issues the CCA is going to quench the Spirit, turn away the Millenials, and make themselves even less relevant and stuck in the past. Inadvertently they are destroying the Movement and ensuring its demise.

  121. The Non-Denonimational Denomination says:

    And with their hyper devotion to secondary issues: rapture, verse by verse expository teaching, pre-trib, pre-millennialism, and their devotion to one man’s view and intepretation of the scriptures: Chuck Smith, they will in the end become more denominational then any denomination I l know of. And yes, there are primary and secondary issues in Christianity. Whether or not the rapture is true is not nearly as important as the diety of Jesus Christ.

  122. The Non-Denonimational Denomination says:

    Sorry for the rants, I think I made my coffee a little too strong this morning…

  123. The Non-Denonimational Denomination says:

    And that is the deity of Jesus Christ, not the diety. I don’t think he needs a diet.

  124. The Non-Denominational Denomination says:

    And I keep misspelling Non-Denominational…

  125. Pstmike says that CCA would prefer the progressives just leave. Leave what?? Leave their website?

  126. Duane Arnold says:

    All of this seems so strange. I remember watching a late interview with Chuck Smith in which he said that God sends his message to every generation in a unique way. His advice was to discern how the Holy Spirit was moving and adapt to that movement, not stay in a rut or try to drag along our old model and try to make make it fit. Whether he always practiced this in his own ministry can be debated, but on the whole, it sounds like wisdom to me…

  127. covered says:

    Good word Duane.

    Non Denom, I think that you have hit it out of the park. The guys from CCA may not want what they are asking for. It’s possible that they are going to become extinct. What a mess and I’m not so sure that it can be fixed.

  128. dusty says:

    The Non-Denominational Denomination,

    you don’t need to apologize for ranting….this blog was made for venting, and healing….

  129. dusty says:

    pstrmike@118, well said!

  130. Jess says:

    I don’t like Chris Quintana’s hairstyle. It’s aggravating to look at.

    As for what he said, I can think of several times in the ministry of Chuck Smith where he violated his own “rules”. What they should be focusing on, is that Chuck Smith did what he wanted. And everyone should follow that pattern. “Calvary Chapel” was just Chuck Smith doing what he wanted, in my opinion.

  131. dusty says:

    Jess, I think you are right….” “Calvary Chapel” was just Chuck Smith doing what he wanted, in my opinion.”

  132. JonnyB says:

    Chuck did the Moses model because it allowed him to be the one independent voice overall.

    Anyone of us who spent decades at his CC know that independent asking of questions was always equated with treason.

    Today there is pole positioning over assets and future acquisitions of assets in my opinion.

    Watch out for the root of bitterness lest many thereby many be defiled.
    Hen 12:15

    I have heard from both sides of the issue and I see a lot of bitterness.

    We no longer have the one “Moses” voice, soon enough we will no longer have this house divided against itself.

  133. JonnyB says:

    Hebrews 12:15

  134. Jerod says:

    Jonny B, that is spot on. I have been running across the same theme in my prayer and reading, conversations and listening. I have been listening to David Nathan teach on the root of bitterness here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zd7hLR73aY

    To your scripture I would like to add James 3:14-17
    “But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.”

  135. Jerod says:

    “Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.”

    This is timely for my personal life, to my church, to CC at large, to this blog.

    “A man has joy in an apt answer, And how delightful is a timely word!” Proverbs 15:23

  136. Jerod says:

    Don’t know about Chuck, but your conclusion was spot on. Chuck is totally dead now and alive in Christ. He is not offended either way. I hope CC can move on from the monuments erected to him. They are blocking the light.

  137. Michael says:

    “Today there is pole positioning over assets and future acquisitions of assets in my opinion.”

    All the assets are owned by a church…CC Costa Mesa.

  138. Michael says:

    Anyone who listens to that David Nathan claptrap will be required to spend a month in study with our Lutherans…

  139. Jordan Taylor says:

    @118, pstrmike

    There may be undertones to the letter I am refusing to acknowledge until they are stated explicitly, but I (and some others here in the NW) will probably hold out and remain a part of CCA unless we are forced to choose sides. Maybe it’s just the NW, but the culture of CC up here is one where you can have disagreements and still have “association.” (And yes MLD that probably just simply means a part of the CCA and CCGN websites)

    To be clear, progressives in CC are (usually) progressive in methodology, not in theology. Chuck was originally progressive in methodology, not theologically. And he faced stiff push back in his day as others do today. This illustrates one of the age old issues within Christianity: we draw dividing lines over methodology, even if we agree theologically. The issues dividing CC today are petty methodological differences and illustrate well Chuck’s statement: “We are not a denominational church, nor are we opposed to denominations as such, only their over-emphasis of the doctrinal differences that have led to the *division* of the Body of Christ.”

  140. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    Jordan Taylor

    “Unless we are forced to choose sides…” My sources have informed me that is exactly what will be forthcoming in the next letter to be issued from CCA, and expected out after the holidays.

    After all, you can’t expect to attend the CCASPC unless you are “one of them,” just like you couldn’t come to the CCSPC unless you were a Clvary Chapel, Harvest or Horizon church.

  141. Michael says:

    Jeff,

    I heard the same but lacked verification…I trust you heard correctly.

  142. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    Makes perfect sense as I have heard that pressure was exerted and a request was made in the second CCA letter to sign that letter and send it back to CCA. The third letter, as mentioned above, at its core, expressed the idea that “we are not CCGN, nor are they us…” It was essentially penned to (I) formalize there is a split; and (ii) setup the final letter requiring a declaration of allegiance.

    Generally, as most know here, tactical maneuvers can hardly be said to be evidence of a move of the Spirit. I wonder if the boys in the Poconos, as expressed in the first letter, when hearing from the Lord, also heard from him how to craftily and tactically prod pastors off the fence.

  143. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    P.s Merry Christmas Michael and I pray the upcoming year brings you improved health, deeper friendships, joy from your son (and cats), and mostly deeper and broader recognition at the most basic level of life that our God loves you so much. Blessings my friend.

  144. Michael says:

    I think one can expect the council to shrink at that point as well…

    Thank you, Jeff…Merry Christmas and a complete recovery in all ways to you my friend.
    Thank you for being a part of my crazy world for all these years as well…

  145. Jerod says:

    “Anyone who listens to that David Nathan claptrap will be required to spend a month in study with our Lutherans…”

    Merry Christmas, Michael °<8o{}»
    May Santa will fill your stocking with cheer!

  146. Calvary Chapel is such a strange organization. First they hold absolutely no standard of who can come to the Lord’s Supper, and now it looks as if a high CC church council is forming to tighten up their doctrine of ‘closed websites’.

  147. victorious says:

    Jordan Taylor
    Imo the reason why the CC Leadership Culture in the NW , especially Seattle is different has to do with a greater emphasis and encouragement to embrace and act on the command to love one another.

    Far from perfection with lots of messes and big time heartaches but there has been a willingness for pivotal leaders to grow and mature relationally.

    Practicing that command in all areas of life and leadership transcends culture , generation, methodology and even doctrine ( not core foundational doctrine ) but secondary issues.

    The NW CC culture had and I hope still has a Kingdom first before Calvary mindset and humility.

    Praying you can preserve and promote the priority of healthy and mature interdependent relationships in the strong affirmation of the Father, the fear and affection of Christ and the love of the Spirit.

  148. Steve Wright says:

    I think one can expect the council to shrink at that point as well…
    —————————————————————————
    Speaking solely as one with a career in the property/casualty insurance industry (not looking for the lecture about brothers suing brothers) – whose primary job was to make such his clients did not do something stupid that could result in uncovered lawsuits, It would not be hard for an enterprising young attorney to bring suit against these men for damages caused by removing their churches from the organization without expressed or implied authority to do so. Chuck may have hand picked these men, but he did not pick them in order to kick a bunch of churches out.

    Keep in mind, the CCA’s reasoning in such a step would NOT be that such churches are not truly CC. But rather an attempt to exclude those churches from free association. That’s the sort of thing you want in writing before time. Is there any precedent that CC in the past prohibited association of their churches with what in all respects is nothing more than another church planting/missionary organization? They may argue Brian is not true CC with his take on teaching the Bible but how are they going to make that argument against all the churches who have a teaching library archived of the Leviticus studies? All the more when they ARE in writing as repeatedly saying each church is independent.

    As I said above, “uncovered” litigation is the key because anyone can sue anybody for anything in America and so you make sure you have insurance covering all your endeavors. I don’t see how the Directors and Officers insurance would have a duty to respond when these guys are acting not as Directors or Officers and not within the scope of their home churches and their ministries. I doubt my church’s policy (which I have read cover to cover) would cover me for such actions. Nor can I see any insurance company offering such a policy for sale to such a loosely organized group as the CCA (nor frankly that they had the foresight to purchase one)

    Curious what Jeff’s take would be.

    (And again, please save the “Steve wants to sue these guys” commentary. I’m just pointing out an exposure that sure jumps out at me if I was on the council)

  149. Steve, I am curious what would the damages be? If I remember correctly damages must be quantifiable.
    Wouldn’t a church need to show something like, “we get 2 new families a month from the CCA website which converts to $200 per month, so the damages to the churc is about $25,000 per year. We project out 10 year damages to be $250,000.”

  150. Steve Wright says:

    MLD, you are correct. Of course, damages are often a nebulous thing in civil suits. However, I would imagine the damages would be less about new people that might not come (though that would be an issue), but also about current people who might leave.

    In any event, when I was in the industry, I did not really care about the merit of possible suits, or chances of victory in court. Just whether one would have to defend himself out of his own pocket (which would then get me sued for not covering him properly or having something in writing that he knew the risk and chose to decline the coverage that would have protected him) or whether there was a policy in place where the company had the duty to defend. Most lawsuits I saw were certainly frivolous. But defense was covered (and damages if they settled or went to trial – the latter being quite rare)

  151. pstrmike says:

    @140 Jordan Taylor

    I’m in the NW as well, but a different part of it than where you live. To some degree, the interaction between CC pastors here is similar to what you have described. However, I think we must move forward cautiously, this split is something new and we will probably see some parameters redefined as we all move along. It is yet to be seen how I will be perceived within my local fellowship of CC pastors after I send the Regional a letter to disaffiliate with CCA after the first of the year.

  152. pstrmike says:

    @140 Jordan Taylor

    One more thing.

    Methodology is always informed by some idea, some doctrine, whether it be biblical or from another source (modernism, post-modernism). In my opinion, much of what we see as trendy evangelicalism comes from modernism rather than the biblical narrative. It is natural for modern man to fill in the blanks not addressed in Holy Scripture by modernist ideology.

    You cannot separate doctrine from methodology. In this recent conflict between CCGN and CCA ( I suspect there will be more), it is a matter of how we define certain doctrines, the priori and/or nuance we place on them which will determine and whether they are a priority that informs our practice of not. That was very evident to me in the panel discussion between Brodersen and Adams that took place at Calvary Fellowship (I’m sure you were there). Both of these men hold to the infallibility and inspiration of Holy Scripture. The difference is how they interpreted and live those doctrines out.

    In short, it is also an epistemological question. Those who misrepresented Brodersen and blew a gasket over his remarks demonstrate that they have a limited capacity to comprehend anything outside of their own understanding. Rather than giving some thought into what Brodersen was saying, they criticized him for doing something a little different. That is not a Christian response.

    Doctrine always informs our methodology. It is necessary to recognize what belief system we are drawing from.

  153. Bob says:

    Chris seemed shocked when he discovered his church was not on CCGN Locator…i sense he felt hurt…
    True where he says CC cant take a local pastor out.
    I dont agree about the board having veto power over pastor i call that out.
    I think most pastors want to be in CC and CCA and have head in sand hoping it will all blow over… like i suggested on my youtube comment – dove should be change to ostrich! Dove over Cross i should have done a u turn at that moment!

  154. Bob says:

    Chris seemed shocked when he discovered his church was not on CCGN Locator…i sense he felt hurt…

    True where he says CC cant take a local pastor out.

    I dont agree about the board having veto power over pastor i call that out.
    I think most pastors want to be in CC and CCA and have head in sand hoping it will all blow over…

    like i suggested on my youtube comment – dove should be change to ostrich!

    Dove over Cross i should have done a u turn at that moment!

    CC Chapel bible college exposed by Right Divider on Youtube – what a bunch of liars CC Bible College must see!

  155. Bob says:

    CC Chapel bible college exposed by Right Divider on Youtube – what a bunch of liars CC Bible College must see!

  156. Michael says:

    Bob,

    You’re a troll and “Right Divider” is an idiot.
    His position is called “hyper-dispensationalism” and it’s not quite heresy, but you can see it from where he stands…

  157. Bob says:

    why am i a troll?> please explain?

    im sure you can pick apart anyone

    Right Divider exposed CC Bible College and since i had bad experience with CC i thought this was relevant…

    peace in the street!

  158. Stephen says:

    “Right DIvider” is a BAD divider of the Word of God…and the fact that you agree with him…and “had a bad experience,” tells me that you are most likely questionable with your ability to properly divide the Word of God.

    a “Bad experience” does not mean something is wrong. The problem could be you.

  159. Xenia says:

    “hyper-dispensationalism” and it’s not quite heresy, <<<

    Oh, I think we can call it a heresy.

    Probably not a damnable heresy, though.

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