The Glory of God: Duane Arnold

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74 Responses

  1. Xenia says:

    A great article with much to reflect upon.

    One small quibble, coming from the heart of a mother.

    wrapped in discarded rags<<<<

    No, absolutely not. Mary did not wrap her Baby in discarded rags; where did you ever get that idea? Of course she brought baby clothes- swaddling clothes- with her because she knew the birth of her Son was going to happen soon.

    Otherwise, great article.

  2. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    I’ll take that correction with grace… the actual meaning of the word is strips of cloth with no further definition and we’re not sure where they came from, but out of our regard for Mary, we will hope that all was prepared beforehand. BTW, some of the Fathers thought that the phrase prefigured Christ’s burial cloth as the words have a similar root…

  3. Jean says:

    Duane,

    What I like about your article is how you show with the word “glory” how opposite God’s wisdom is from human wisdom. For example, God’s glory (i.e., honor, majesty, power, etc.) is revealed in the humiliation (weakness, suffering, shame, etc.) of the Son. On the other hand, in that humiliation, the powers of the devil, sin and death were defeated and humanity was redeemed.

    Somehow we all need to pray for the American Church, that we might recover a biblical compass of a disciple who follows the way of Christ.

  4. Papias says:

    Duane,

    Excellent article. Many things to ponder.

    People do change, and change is not necessarily a bad thing. Even the baby became a humble man, but will return VERY differently:

    “Here, then, Macarius, is our offering to you who love Christ, a brief statement of the faith of Christ and of the manifestation of His Godhead to us. This will give you a beginning, and you must go on to prove its truth by the study of the Scriptures. They were written and inspired by God; and we, who have learned from inspired teachers who read the Scriptures and became martyrs for the Godhead of Christ, make further contribution to your eagerness to learn. From the Scriptures you will learn also of His second manifestation to us, glorious and divine indeed, when He shall come not in lowliness but in His proper glory, no longer in humiliation but in majesty, no longer to suffer but to bestow on us all the fruit of His cross— the resurrection and incorruptibility. No longer will He then be judged, but rather will Himself be Judge, judging each and all according to their deeds done in the body, whether good or ill. Then for the good is laid up the heavenly kingdom, but for those that practice evil outer darkness and the eternal fire. So also the Lord Himself says, “I say unto you, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man seated on the right hand of power, coming on the clouds of heaven in the glory of the Father.”For that Day we have one of His own sayings to prepare us, “Get ready and watch, for ye know not the hour in which He cometh”. And blessed Paul says, “We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive according as he practiced in the body, whether good or ill.”
    Athanasius – On the Incarnation

  5. Duane Arnold says:

    #3 Jean

    I wrote this before the events of the weekend in which we saw an audience of evangelicals applauding and cheering the bullying tactics of of a resurgent nationalism. I kept asking myself, “How can this be happening?”

  6. Duane Arnold says:

    #4 Papias

    Thanks… love the quote!

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I kept asking myself, “How can this be happening?””

    Bad theology – this is the same evangelical theology that led to the Moral Majority almost 40 years ago. It is the same theology that led to Fundamentalism is the 1920s which did just the opposite and removed itself from all political involvement.

    I know I will get kicked in the teeth over this, but when you don’t have the sacraments, you will try all sorts of crazy self justification tactics … even going in on the coattails of political figures and government programs.

    “Hold my beer Jesus – watch this!”

  8. Xenia says:

    I would agree with you MLD but for the large number of people who go to sacramental churches are not immune from what Duane described in his #5.

    Sacraments don’t immunize people from idiocy.

  9. Duane Arnold says:

    #8 Xenia

    Agreed. I think this is a case of Triumphalism, pure (or impure) and simple. Human nature likes the idea of a God who makes us “winners” as opposed to “losers”. The priorities of many have become so skewed that I begin to wonder if their views can be reconciled to Christian faith and practice.

  10. Jean says:

    And, partly “why” Duane, though not the only reason, is because it helps with marketing, selling and recruiting seeker sensitive people.

    How else can you convert someone who isn’t convinced they merit hell?

  11. Xenia says:

    Duane, right.

    All you have to do is read some medieval history. The aristocracy went to mass and received the Eucharist pretty much every day yet the warrior class engaged in continual warfare with each other. Some believe the Pope inaugurated the crusades just to get these guys out of the country so there could be some peace in the land. It was all about triumphalism and pride. It was the problem then and it’s the problem now. Sacraments only “work” if the heart is engaged. It is not a magic pill.

  12. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia and Jean

    And what happens when we turn to Christ so that…
    1. My cancer will be cured
    2. My finances will get better
    3. I’ll get that job promotion
    4. My country will be the best and biggest

    And then…
    1. My cancer isn’t cured
    2. I’m financially on the ropes
    3. I’m fired from my job
    4. My country has a recession or loses a war

    I’m not sure about everybody else, but I’ve witnessed the second set of propositions more often than I’ve witnessed the first set…

  13. Papias says:

    Triumphalism and Church power/influence has existed since Constantine and the Arian controversy.

    If the Emperor was orthodox then all was well and good. But if the Emperor was Arian or apostate then being orthodox wasn’t so much fun.

  14. Duane Arnold says:

    #13 Papias

    Yes… and isn’t it interesting to see the change from the positions of Origen and Tertullian who, in some writings, required new converts to give up a position of governmental authority in order to be baptized…

  15. Papias says:

    #14 Duane

    That’s another form of “progressive revelation” 🙂

    That’s another reason why people didn’t get baptized until on their deathbed. (Its kind of hard to justify putting your family to death….)

  16. Duane Arnold says:

    #15 Papias

    Indeed, Constantine waited until almost the last moment…

    If you can find it, you may be interested in: (warning: it’s lengthy…)
    DiMaio, Michael. and Duane W.H.Arnold. “Per Vim, Per Caedem, Per Bellum: A Study of Murder and Ecclesiastical Politics in the Year 337 A.D..” Byzantion, 62 (1992): 158ff.

  17. em... again says:

    this is a wonderful post and the comments have been a good and thoughtful read…
    i think you are right in identifying our false sense of where God’s glory is found… now if you can take it to the next step and help us see that God’s glory is stunning, powerful… it is majestic – rather frightening, so high above what we can grasp… 🙂 i forget this too easily
    i think you and your friend back there in 1971 identify one thing that is necessary, God uses a clean and “empty” vessel…
    as your story unfolded, i see God’s faithful mercies to keep you and your friend and i love to hear of such life journeys, as well as moments of miracles – praise Him, my heart is singing “great is Thy faithfulness…” thank you for that – neither of you were playing at being Christians, were you?

    i am with Xenia on the swaddling clothes… God chose Mary because she would make a good mother for His son – she wasn’t an air head whose imminent labor would have caught her by surprise – those were fresh, clean “rags” – maybe, even what we, today, call “receiving blankets”

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Anyone who is counting on their illnesses to get healed, their finances to get enriched, get a job promotion etc have and oversized, realized eschatology. They have rerad all the “and I will heal my people (or land) passages, that are meant for another time, they have read them into their own life.

  19. Duane Arnold says:

    #17 em

    I bow to the “gender appropriate” comments of you and Xenia, on the side of Mary…

  20. Jean says:

    Duane, in an expression of Christianity, which I won’t name to maintain peace here, the Psalms, which tell the true story of a life lived under the cross, are not normative for Christians. So, the poor souls described in your #12 are sold a bridge to nowhere.

    Regarding your #12, you are describing building materials which don’t survive the fire. Not only do they not survive the fire, but as a consequence there is no refining (or pruning, which increases fruitfulness).

    I’m a little scatter brained today. Too many thoughts.

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia @8,
    Just because someone goes to a church that has the sacraments does not mean that they individually don’t hold them in the same disdain as those who wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot pole.
    They don’t take the sacraments seriously and fall into the same mess — because “they are looking for love in all the wrong places.” – political action figures 😉

  22. Duane Arnold says:

    #20 Jean

    Not scattered at all… Again, we’re back to the City of God and the City of Man.

  23. em... again says:

    #18 – only recently has it dawned on me that, while the O.T. has many applications to life, we personalize too many things that were meant for nations (and maybe those things still apply to nations today – dunno)… i think i’m right on this – don’t know about the theology, but it makes sense to me
    #12’s point 4… we surely do need to pray for this nation’s present administration as our country has gotten itself involved in too many things that were just none of our business (within our borders and outside them, also – IMHO) and now what do we do?

  24. Jean says:

    Duane,

    “we’re back to the City of God and the City of Man.”

    A complementary distinction is God preached and God not preached.

    Or God in Christ revealed in His Word and promises and God hidden and inscrutable in his naked majesty.

  25. Michael says:

    I utterly refuse to believe that God doesn’t heal and provide today… that is not over realized eschatology.
    I say that being ill and in poverty… but I still will pray and ask the Father for his help…

  26. Papias says:

    #16 Duane

    Thanks for that reference- finding it may be…problematic…

    I’m actually looking for a good read on Athanasius and your book popped up. I still think his bio would make a good movie.

  27. Duane Arnold says:

    #24 Jean

    At the risk of being roasted, I’ll take it to even a simpler perspective… Can we picture Christ bragging about carrying a concealed weapon? Can we picture Christ engaging in flagrant nationalism (he had the chance in his time and said, “No”)? And what did he promise his followers… the cross… that they would be treated like him… that they would be judged on how they treated “the least of these”…

    I begin to believe that many people don’t want the Christ they see in the Gospels, so they simply create an alternative. They use the same “Christian speak” language, but they are promoting a Christ that I simply don’t see in the Gospels.

  28. Duane Arnold says:

    #25 Michael

    I agree with you that God can and does… but if it doesn’t happen, he is still God and worthy of our love and honor…

    As they say, “God always answers our prayers… sometimes he says ‘No'”…

  29. Papias says:

    #27 – Duane
    Can we picture Christ engaging in flagrant nationalism (he had the chance in his time and said, “No”)

    What are you considering for this passage? Asking for a friend… 🙂

    While I was uncomfortable yesterday during my churches “God and Country Celebration”(ugh),

    Paul did use his Roman citizenship and appealed to Caesar..

  30. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael,
    “I utterly refuse to believe that God doesn’t heal and provide today… that is not over realized eschatology.”

    I didn’t say that God does not heal or that God does not provide — he does that out of his goodness.

    However, there are many, in fact it is a common teaching that you are due his healing and you are due his provision — just look at the promises, and every time, a verse is quoted, it is always one that is for another time – a heavenly time.

    This is seen when the teaching, especially in small groups turns to “my daughter died because we did not pray hard enough…”, or you can probably fill in any teaching you have heard

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So, are people saying that Jesus wouldn’t show up to blow up a couple of M 80s for the 4th of July? 😉

  32. Duane Arnold says:

    #29 Papias

    Our Lord could have endorsed the Jewish nationalism of the day, but did not… “render unto Caesar…” He did, however, have a zealot as a disciple, but it seems that in following Christ he found something more fulfilling than nationalism!

  33. em... again says:

    #27 – made me smile… if anyone ever had a ‘concealed weapon,’ it was our Lord 🙂
    fortunately for the human race, Jesus was on a mission and, under the authority of His commanding officer, and was forbidden to use it (sorry)…
    good thing for the human race that some of us who follow Him don’t have access to all the power that resided in Him…
    today, i’m of a mindset to use it…
    tired of hot weather, an unmowed weed crop that horses eat and colic, threats of fires and idjuts who think they need M80s and roman candles to celebrate the 4th, tired of canny waffling do-nothing-without-a-personal-payoff politicians, tired of the wrangling over what constitutes the soundest doctrines… if i don’t get a grip, i’m apt to commit the sin unto death and get raptured out prematurely

    thank you for this good thread that occupies my mind on better things today and reminds me that my bills and my month come out even still and it looks like my strength just may be sufficient to last my number of days – God have mercy on me for my attitude of ingratitude (praying for Michael and others i know, so strangely tested now)

  34. Duane Arnold says:

    #33 em

    I hear you… and empathize!

  35. em... again says:

    so many comments here today have me thinking…
    Jesus did not promote the Roman Empire, but He did step into the flow of history and comply with the laws of the land even submitting to a Roman crucifixion… there must be a model for our own walks there somewhere…

  36. em... again says:

    thank you, Pastor Duane… then consider my gripes today as griping for the both of us…
    it would be conduct unbecoming a good pastor (or a good Christian)

  37. Duane Arnold says:

    All

    The friend I speak of in the post is the very person who put me in touch with Michael Newnham and PP…. So, now you know who to thank and/or blame!

    For myself, I am informed by CS Lewis… “Two friends always welcome a third”. I was blessed by my friend and blessed by Michael…

  38. Descended says:

    “Refugee parents”?

    From whom were Mary and Joseph running in fear for their lives?

  39. Descended says:

    Papias

    Is that a Baptist thing, God and Country Celebration? I saw a sign for that very thing outside a Baptist church in my town. Maybe it’s just an easy title…

  40. Duane Arnold says:

    #39 Descended

    Uprooted from their home, forced to travel to an obscure village to fulfill requirements, with no place to lodge as Mary gave birth… as a friend says, make your own application…

  41. Descended says:

    It doesn’t apply though. “Refugee” carries a certain definition and contextual flavor, especially nowadays. It usually is flavored as desperation and hopelessness. Its one of those buzzwords your friend mentioned on another post.

    Mary and Joseph knew prophecy was being fulfilled through her and their travails. I think the rightful heirs to the house of David would have been exceedingly joyful no matter their circumstance.

    You are a fantastic writer, though. Thanks for this post 🙂

  42. Em says:

    Rabbit trailing…
    It occurs to me that those shepherds out their keeping watch over the sheep? Those angels appearing in the night sky?
    Today’s shepherds (if there are any) would be running into town trying to convince people that they’d just seen UFOs – what’s a baby savior good for anyway?
    And were Joseph and family illegal immigrants into Egypt?

  43. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Excellent article, excellent thread.
    Thank you….

  44. Jean says:

    “I think the rightful heirs to the house of David would have been exceedingly joyful no matter their circumstance.”

    Sorry Descended, that sort of “going through the motions” or hyper spiritualized theology won’t do and isn’t biblical.

    When Jesus became separated from his parents when he was a young boy and they thought he was lost, their fear and anxiety was quite real, according to Luke.

  45. Michael says:

    I’m way too tired to debate this…but for crying out loud…the holy family fled to a foreign country to avoid state sponsored violence.

    That is the definition of a refugee.

  46. Duane Arnold says:

    Thanks, Jean, Michael, Em and Descended…

    The Incarnation is about these being real people, with real emotions, real fears… They did not have the benefit of a full body of writings, explaining the reasons, fulfilled prophecies, etc…. they were just simple people, obedient to God, in a small place, in a small way, in what they were asked to do… And it is there, we find the Glory of God….

  47. Duane Arnold says:

    #46 Michael

    The doctor’s prescription: Take two doses of +Ramsey, one of Julian of Norwich, and three evening collects from the BCP… guarantee you’ll feel better…

    You’re the best, my brother.

  48. Michael says:

    Duane…it’s uncanny how you know my plans for the night… 🙂

    Reading my mail as well…

    Any good that I am or do is because of the amazing people God blesses me with…very proud to be part of this community today…

  49. Descended says:

    That was after His birth, and in reality, it was still in the Roman empire.

  50. Descended says:

    Anywhere from 2-6 years after his birth

  51. Michael says:

    Descended,

    You’re wrong.
    The parents of the children slaughtered would tell you they wish they had went to Egypt…which was outside the rule of Herod.
    It is utterly beyond me why someone would argue this.

  52. em... again says:

    i always found it interesting that God sent Jesus down into Egypt (yes, it fulfilled prophesy) rather than giving the baby supernatural protection where he was… a hint of the boundaries of his incarnation, perhaps? His assigned journey as a mortal?
    “It is utterly beyond me why someone would argue this.” me too…
    i’ve contributed to what i thot was a rabbit trail, thinking on the changing attitude of migrations and borders down thru time… not a debate on the refugee vs immigrant – truly sorry for contributing any fodder for debate or angst…

    weren’t Joseph, and Mary simply travelers on their way to pay taxes and then they became refugees from Herod later? i remember my late husband observing that having babies was a natural event, that the pioneer women simply gave birth and traveled on… i reminded him that the average life span of those woman back then was mid thirties – as i think on it, God took very good care of Mary in spite of “world conditions” then 🙂

  53. Michael says:

    Em,

    I like your question about whether they were illegal immigrants…but my eyes are crossing from weariness and I’ll think about that more tomorrow.
    My first thought is I’m not sure…

  54. filbertz says:

    thought-provoking article.
    the paradox of humility and glory is stark and full.
    that God’s glory can be revealed in tragedy and horror defies logic, but no doubt is true.
    it seems too many Christians lose focus and faith over that very issue.

  55. em... again says:

    Michael, not sure it’s a question worth thinking on, but thanks – sleep well

    Pastor Arnold’s post was just what i needed to think on today – as a pew sitter, that is
    do you pastors and teachers ever wonder, as you teach just what we’re all thinking on as you do so? 🙂 not always tracking as close as you’d hope, i fear… but still good IMHO

    God keep all safe and comforted this night…

  56. em... again says:

    a double amen to #55
    now i’m gone

  57. Descended says:

    To: Michael
    From: Wikipedia
    The Roman province of Egypt (Latin:Aegyptus, pronounced [ae̯ˈɡʏptʊs]; Greek:Αἴγυπτος Aigyptos [ɛ́ːɡyptos]) was established in 30 BC after Octavian (the futureemperor Augustus) defeated his rival Mark Antony, deposed his lover Queen Cleopatra VIIand annexed the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egyptto the Roman Empire. The provinceencompassed most of modern-day Egyptexcept for the Sinai Peninsula (which would later be conquered by Trajan). Aegyptus was bordered by the provinces of Creta et Cyrenaica to the West and Iudaea (laterArabia Petraea) to the East.

    “It is utterly beyond me why someone would argue this.”
    Why are you?

  58. Descended says:

    I guess I am arguing because it irks me when folks try to politicize Jesus and make him the mascot for their golden cause. Jesus was in no sense a refugee. Sorry for being a stickler.

  59. Michael says:

    @58…it’s only folks like you who try to argue using Wikipedia.
    The obvious fact from the text of Scripture is that the holy family escaped to a province that why it may have been under the rule of the emperor, was not under the rule of Herod.
    I might be inclined to lecture on the how long before the rise of the nation/state this is, but such would probably pass without understanding.

    “I guess I am arguing because it irks me when folks try to politicize Jesus and make him the mascot for their golden cause.”

    It matters not what your political view is. The fact remains that the holy family fled one political context for another to escape state sponsored violence. That is called being a refugee in any reasonable discourse.
    Period.

  60. Descended says:

    Hmm. I think I told you that awhile ago. The wiki thing. Oh well.

    I guess you could make that argument from a natural standpoint. Yet, at no point was Christ’s life in danger before the culmination on the cross. Thus not a refugee. A refugee is “unable or unwilling to return”. Being God, Jesus was able. He was willing. He did return.
    Oh and it was in order to fulfill prophecy per Matthew 2:14. But I’ll grant you…
    Maybe that wasn’t inspired.

    “This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: ‘OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.’ ”

    I hope you feel better. Goodnight.

  61. Jean says:

    “Yet, at no point was Christ’s life in danger before the culmination on the cross.”

    Once again, Descended, you are short-changing the gospel narrative and ignoring relevant texts, for example:

    “After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him.”

  62. Duane Arnold says:

    #61 Descended

    Well, since it was all about fulfilled prophecy, let’s just say Joseph got Mary into the BMW and they took the three hour drive to Bethlehem where they’d forgotten to make reservations and it was a holiday weekend…

    Really!?!

    They lived in a country under military occupation by a foreign power.
    They were ordered, against their will, to leave their home to register in a distant place.
    Travel was dangerous (military patrols, thieves, etc)
    The requirement was so onerous that they made the journey even though Mary was in her last month of her pregnancy.
    They had few possessions and little money (or else arrangements could have been made for something better than an animal shelter).
    Even after the birth of Jesus, they had to journey again, this time to Egypt.

    It is all well and good to say they were never in danger, because God had everything covered… but that was not their experience at the time in that place. That is your view looking backwards. As such, it turns the very real human events into a pantomime.

    So, call them refugees, or displaced persons, or indigenous victims of a military occupation, or, in the case of Herod, escapees from the genocide of the infants… but please do not sanitize what took place. It diminishes the faith, trust and resolve of Mary and Joseph to follow God.

    By the way, if, as you say, Christ was never in danger until the cross, it is a very subtle lessening of the fullness of the Incarnation…

  63. Duane Arnold says:

    #62 Jean

    Our posts crossed! Yes, you are absolutely right. Additionally, if one were looking for other parallels, the flight into Egypt was about a mother and father protecting their child from almost certain death by fleeing to another country. One could find numerous examples of this reality in El Salvador and Honduras today… Not trying to make a political point here, just looking at the reality.

  64. Jean says:

    Duane:

    “Not trying to make a political point here, just looking at the reality.”

    The reality is there was evil in the world when Jesus was born and there is evil in the world still today.

    The reality is there is a lot of evil going on right here in America, and no shortage of opportunities right here in America for God’s people to be merciful.

    In my humble opinion, I think our government has neglected our own country for so long that we are severely depleted. We have turned our backs on working families, fiscal responsibility, law and order, education, infrastructure, healthcare, and now we are turning our backs on the environment and the our the free press and voting franchise is on the horizon. I don’t see how we can continue as a world leader if these problems persist and get worse.

    I think our government owes it to its citizens to revitalize America for the sake of not just our citizens, but so that we can be a more helpful international citizen. Moreover, we have a very checkered past when it comes to foreign intervention.

    Regarding illegal immigrants who are in the country right now, I would like all criminals quickly deported, and for the rest to be humanely treated. I’m not an expert on the issue, so I can’t really go farther than the general statement about humane treatment.

  65. Disillusioned says:

    Thanks for a great thought-provoking article on two fronts:
    First, it’s good to remember the sincerity and optimism and brotherhood that was part of those early days. Some of those friendships were indeed real, proved through trial and time.

    Second: man’s idea of God’s glory is so fudged up. May we all be nearer to the humility of Jesus in our daily walk.
    (Interestingly, the first two points I feel God made known to me after I left CC was that I had trusted in man instead of Him, and that there was insufferable arrogance among the leadership.)

  66. Duane Arnold says:

    #65 Jean

    I would agree with you on pretty well all of your points. It seems to me that those preaching “revival in our nation” have the idea that it mean all of us becoming Christian nationalists. For me, “revival in our nation” would be evidenced by Christian love, works of mercy, care for “the least of these” and, again for me, “the love of learning” and civil discourse. I’m not sure any of those preaching in the national arena would agree with my priorities.

  67. Jean says:

    Duane,

    Once again, you are describing people who are trying to rally Christians around a temporal, flesh-based civil religion, which rules by money and power – all the things that keep the old Adam intact and happy, instead of around the cross which promises to kill the old Adam and raise a new man in Christ. the new man in Christ is a living sacrifice.

    This civil religion conflates the two cities (or kingdoms), and often has a weird Old Testament flavor, which robs Christ of His glory as our king.

    In the New Testament, Christians are described as sojourners and exiles. Christians are never commanded to create a temporal Christian nation.

  68. Duane Arnold says:

    #68 Jean

    Indeed… the problem is, they claim to speak for all of us… and they don’t.

  69. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t get it. Civil religion is just that civil religion. It’s not Christianity.
    At best, civil religion is a civil ethical system and not a deity based system.
    The fact that ‘religion’s folks want to participate is a different story.
    This is definitely in the category of no harm no foul.
    I would much rather a Christian church caught up in singing God Bless America than teaching an age of accountability. 🙂

  70. em... again says:

    #61 – okay, i’m going to enter into the refugee tussle here
    “Yet, at no point was Christ’s life in danger before the culmination on the cross.” IMHO, that’s a wrong statement
    from the view point that this baby was human and constricted to walk in vulnerable human flesh throughout his journey as son of man, Jesus’ the baby human was most certainly in danger, just like the rest of the babies there in the area that evil Herod targeted (the depravity of man is frightening and very clear in this episode)… however,
    as someone pointed out earlier in this thread God’s will simply can’t be out-maneuvered and perhaps that is the reason for the prophesy that Jesus would come out of Egypt… guess Satan forgot what he’d read as, i’m sure he’d read it

  71. em... again says:

    #63 – Pastor Arnold said it better than my #71… should have read on down the thread

  72. filbertz says:

    there is a tension between present perception and hindsight. Looking at the reality of the deity of Christ and the resurrection and His adult miracles and the crucifixion/resurrection from our vantage point, one may confidently state ‘he was in no real danger.’ At the time, under the circumstances, from the vantage point of two frightened, protective, new parents, with the supernatural expression of a dream in which they were instructed to flee to Egypt, of course Mary and Joseph would obediently, with relief, flee to that foreign nation. One must always keep our present point of view in mind when putting thoughts/words/feelings into a character of the past.

    for what it’s worth…

  73. Duane Arnold says:

    #73 filbertz

    I think you are right on the money…

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