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14 Responses

  1. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Anglicans ambivalent? Well, I can see your point… on the other hand we need to consider another point of view. There are several ways to approach this issue… I wonder what +Michael Ramsey wrote about this, or maybe I should look at Pusey… I’ll get back to you when I can get a consensus…😂

  2. Michael says:

    Sounds like a typical one of our conversations… 🙂

  3. EricL says:

    Michael,
    Let’s say it’s summer time and you’re in the Arizona desert. You’re on a motorcycle, your Starbucks Venti cold brew in one hand, and a theology tome in your man purse. You catch three guys jumping the border wall: one a Calvinist, one a Lutheran, and the third an Evangelical.
    Which one gets a ride to safety?
    Which one gets your Starbucks for hydration?
    Which one gets the theology volume to straighten out their life?
    🙂

  4. Michael says:

    EricL,

    I wave and keep going… 🙂

  5. Em says:

    Who would be on the highway on a motorcycle in Arizona in the summertime? Must be a nightrider…
    But that is a funny scenario
    Hydrate the Lute
    Enlighten the evangelical
    And get the Calvinist to safety
    Sorry to interrupt. 😏

  6. BrianD says:

    You need to do a fun version of this. Last movie watched, favorite Minnesota Vikings of all-time, recommended restaurants, best fast-food burger, etc. 🙂

  7. Sue says:

    Michael,

    “I also think that there is some sort of universal application of the atonement and “world” probably means ‘world’ in context.”

    I am intrigued! What do you mean by “there is some sort of universal application of the atonement” and what leads you to this thought? I would love to believe in universal atonement (my mother is lately sending me texts from the latest Richard Rohr book….not sure what to think of him)…but I fear this means losing any serious view of the authority of scripture…

    Nevertheless, I moved away from a Calvinist perspective largely because of the doctrine of reprobation, and this whole issue has caused me angst for years now.

  8. Michael says:

    BrianD,
    You’re right…I forget that fun is allowed.. 🙂

  9. Michael says:

    Sue,

    Traditional Calvinism either states that Christ died only for the elect, or that the benefits of His death are applied to the elect only.
    Thus, any scriptures that speak of Christ dying for the whole world (all of humanity) are exegeted to reflect that particularity.
    I think we can have a serious view of Scripture and let the paradoxes they present stand.
    There are Scriptures that seem to present a universal benefit and others that speak of some sort of particularity.
    Let the paradox remain and replace dogma with mystery.
    The other factor in my thinking (and it’s a huge factor) is that we in the West have a small view of the Incarnation.
    This quote from Gregory is one I’ve meditated on for over a year now…
    “For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. ”
    Christ put on human flesh becoming and representing mankind.
    What happens when humans touched the Christ?
    I think it’s possible that the acts of redemption performed by Christ (actually one act of redemption with many parts) may have achieved more redemption than we dare to think.
    I’m not making a case for universalism, I’m just giving myself permission to ponder these matters until I’m satisfied with an answer…

  10. Xenia says:

    “For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. ”<<<

    When I was a student at the Orthodox school we students used this quote as an answer for every question the teacher asked. It sort of became a standing joke, like answering "Jesus" is always the right answer in Sunday School.

    All joking aside, it's a fantastic way to look at the Incarnation.

  11. Duane Arnold says:

    Everything flows from our view of the Incarnation – that is, God with us. The Church as “the body of Christ” is intimately connected. The sacraments, from baptism to the Eucharist (“This is my Body… This is my Blood”) are intimately connected. Ordained ministry stretching back to Christ’s commissioning of the Apostles is intimately connected. The Incarnation is the single “fact” of salvation history that allows all the rest to make sense…

  12. Em says:

    interesting thread here…
    God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish….
    But how shall they believe who have not heard [of Christ]? is that a hint that God will judge us on what we do with what we have heard? hmmm
    scoffers/unbelievers love to point out that all the people who have ever lived and have not “made a decision for Christ” are going to hell?
    i have a hunch that God judges hearts, judges what you have done with what you do know and no self justifying person has much of a chance that i can see… hmmm

  13. Sue says:

    “any scriptures that speak of Christ dying for the whole world (all of humanity) are exegeted to reflect that particularity.”

    Yes, I am seeing more and more that a lot depends on which verses you view as central, and which get interpreted in light of that “central” schema. I agree, there are paradoxes in scripture on this matter and at a certain point, you just have to admit they are paradoxes and as you say, let them stand. I agree too about the western church and the Incarnation….only after coming into Anglicanism have I begun to appreciate its importance.

    I’m not sure I understand “For that which He has not assumed He has not healed”…is that a way of saying that God, taking on human form, heals all of humanity from sin? I know the Eastern Church has more of an emphasis on the “healing” metaphor of Christ versus substitutionary atonement/courtroom metaphor.

  14. Bryonm says:

    Michael:

    This is a great piece. I value your use of the word “sects”. It should be used in discussions more often.

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