The Thirty-Nine Articles Of Religion

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68 Responses

  1. Reuben says:

    A few things…

    I have spent some time reading other tradition’s confessions, and I really appreciate the fact that the Anglicans took a KISS approach to things. It is very hard to understand what some other traditions believe, as the overload of information and regulations are dizzying.

    I see numerous “non-traditional traditions” spending too much time on things that are of little value, aka Calvinism/Armenian, Pre/Mid/Post, how one is baptized… and it makes me wonder if most of the church of today is defined by what it is against, rather than what it is for.

    Anglicans are against quite a bit, however, it was because the reformers broke the unbiblical traditions of the Roman Catholic Church that these things needed to be explained. Most breaks from tradition these days are preferential, emotional, and simply stylistic, yet these breaks seem to capitalize on these shifts.

    Happy 4th!

  2. Funny, I see it differently. I find that most Christian churches – hear this correctly – churches, (I’m not talking about so called christian political groups, bloggers, conference groups) but the churches, do not distinguish themselves at all. You would be hard pressed listen to what comes down from the pulpit to know what that church body believes

    It is only the few remaining churches that have their own confessions that make a difference – and those with a formal liturgy that you can see, hear and confess that belief.

  3. btw Reuben, during the whole time of the 39 Articles I had to remain silent in my shame – but now I can speak boldly and say –

    “Hey Reuben – the Blue has caught the Rox!” 😉

  4. Reuben says:

    Kershaw is a machine. I have to admit that much…

  5. Gary says:

    I’ve never read so many articles, never in the Orange County Register or at the London public square. Not 95. Not 99. I need an Aidan there is none. At least not since August, see? There’s no funnies, no op-Ed out Free lancer page. When shopping for theology you need a magna carta cuz a Thomas bucket just won’t do, and the deportment store is so large and unaccommodating. Why, fr’instance does the Angle-icon Church believe in apostate cessation? You approved when Henry ate hole communities of fryers with nun left. You shake your spear with a False staff with Mal Flavours. Your prayers are too common, and your littergy is all over the place. You Laud William who persecutes Pure-itans, giving them a grim pill to take to the sea. A little persecution goes a long way. You need a new confession. Please enlighten me since I’m at the age of reason. Your sola saving grace was a great awakening when the phenominal John and Charles rode Wesley to the Whitefield unto harvest. Not until Simeon got a Handel on grace is there a light at the end of the last bar. Olney in America could this happen. Oh, yeah; and you need a new name to reflect your evolving methods. Can I buy an amen?

  6. Gary says:

    I need to get home. I have to travel from one end of the Earth to the other. How should I travel?

    I could get directions and walk to the nearest village, join a caravan to the big city, ride a horse through the countryside to the closest port, board a sailing ship, disembark and walk to town, climb on a buckboard on the way to the next town, get on a stagecoach to the train station, ride to the end of the line where the train is robbed and I am held up and have to flee for my life, board another ship, cross the sea, rebuild my life, and continue getting directions from some I trust and many I don’t, with perilous results along the way. -or-

    I could fly there directly.

    You are a wise man at the gate. What do you say?

    (I don’t want easiest or cheapest way. I want the best way; the most accurate way. The airline is the church I trust and the pilot is my pastor. I know there are holes in the analogy and of course it breaks down, but you get the idea. Michael, feel free to remove this post. I’m not trying to hijack [pun intended] the thread. I’m just trying to get where I’m going and I’m wondering who to trust. Thanks for your consideration.)

  7. Reuben,
    Thanks for sharing these and patiently watching the debates that ensued.

    Happy 4th!

  8. Gary says:

    I’m not looking to break up a spy ring or anything like that; I’m just not sure I want to take those 39 steps on the Fourth of July.

  9. Gary,
    In your church, if your pastor were asked his opinion on any of the topics listed above, would he just shrug and say “I never considered them of any importance – therefore I have never given them any thought?”

    Every church out of the Reformation had to address these issues, and others, as a matter of truth and survival.

    People who hang out their shingle on a new modern day independent church or church affiliation don’t realize that they are standing on the shoulders of others – in fact they think they were the first to come to the conclusions that they have come to.

    Hmmm, on reflection, I do think they are the first to come to those conclusions. 🙂

  10. Gary,
    You have some pretty exclusive thinking going on here. TRUTH is found only in YOUR church?

    “I want the BEST way; the most ACCURATE way. The airline is the church I TRUST and the pilot is MY PASTOR.

  11. Gary says:

    MLD,
    I think he would tell me that in his studies both private and at school, he studied the 39 articles. He would probably tell me his opinion of them individually and as a body. He would probably give me some related history. Then we would go on to discuss it.

    You’re right. Not only did the reformation churches have to digest everything but I as a Christian I must do something similar. Within reason of course. No matter how much historical or theological information I take in, if I don’t have the Holy Spirit to interpret for me, it’s all useless. Conversely, If I do have the Holy Spirit, I don’t need as much information. I realize this infuriates some. Sorry. I do believe in education. That’s one way I differ from my CC roots.

    I appreciate your humor cuz it’s rare.

  12. Gary says:

    Come on, MLD,
    You know better than that. You like to stir up the pot and I’m not taking the bait. Every believer must choose who they trust.

  13. Gary says:

    MLD,
    Quoting you with your highlights: ““I want the BEST way; the most ACCURATE way. The airline is the church I TRUST and the pilot is MY PASTOR.”

    Don’t you want and expect your parishioners to have that opinion of you and of your denomination?

  14. Gary says:

    O know I’m a simp, but I’m here, ain’t I?

  15. J.U. says:

    I too have enjoyed these discussions. I’ve said this before, but most may not remember. I first came to PhxP, not because I was abused or upset at any church and not because I was ever involved with CC. No, for another reason entirely.

    I originally went to a Lutheran Church. It was a WELS church. I wasn’t much into the doctrine. I wasn’t even a member, but I was comfortable there for a time. Eventually, however, I had the opposite reaction to the liturgy than some here on PhxP.

    I didn’t find it making me closer to God. I was seeking a more personal relationship, and frankly I just got bored.

    I then spent time in a Baptist church. That was better for me. I have to admit I even liked the music as it was sort of rock and roll with guitars and drums. However I kept wandering until I found my current church which is an Evangelical Free church.

    Again it wasn’t the doctrine that attracted me, but the people in the church. They were so welcoming and just seemed Christ like. The pastor welcomed me with open arms and I liked his preaching. It is a small church, or maybe middle sized. About 400 souls.

    After a while, at a weekly bible study that I was attending I mentioned how I thought that the liturgical churches were sort of boring and that the repetition wasn’t to my liking. In fact, I was rather insulting of the Lutheran church. Then a sister at the bible study told me that each person has their own needs and that some prefer the stability of a liturgical church and some like what we have in our church and some are very pentecostal and speak in tongues and roll in the aisles. Her view was “each their own.”

    I respected her comments and ended up from a Google search here at PhxP. So this discussion has been very interesting to me.

    For those that don’t know the Evangelical Free denomination, it started in Scandinavia where the state church tithed and that was actually the taxes. The Evangelical Free did not want to belong to a state church and they rebelled and hence the name “Free.” I’m no expert, but that’s my understanding of it.

    Each EV church is independent, like a CC, and I suppose that could cause the same problems discussed ad infinitum here on PhxP. Our church is governed by the congregation in quarterly business meetings. The board is the board of deacons, about 12, elected by the body. The pastor gets paid and has medical insurance and a retirement plan. He preaches a lot of verse-by-verse, but picks books out of the Bible at random, not necessarily Genesis to Revelations. We usually cover about one chapter at a sermon. Or even only one page and we take a lot of time to go through one book and wring out the context and present application. There are other times that sermons follow themes like around Easter which we call Resurrection Day or at Christmas. I think our verse-by-verse is probably 70% of the preaching.

    Once a year all members get a complete budget printout with expected and actual dollars by line item. It is very detailed. Copies are piled on a table in the lobby if non members want to see them. Non members can come to the quarterly business meetings, but they can’t vote. Non members can have a mail box and receive a copy of the budget too. Membership is not required except for voting. We typically baptize once or twice a year as we consider baptism a symbol, not a requirement., so we aren’t in a rush to baptize. We do a large baptism once a year and a few small baptisms during the year. On occasion we have a baptism in the church of one person, but typically three or four. We have communion once a month, although their was a church for younger people in the evening and they did the Lord’s supper every time.

    You have to go through a “welcome to the family” class to join our church and the deacons interview you and ask a few questions. You must believe in the Trinity. I don’t recall any other requirements. Then the membership votes and a majority determines membership. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone fail to be a member.

    We don’t focus on the rapture but try to be prepared for the return of Christ. We don’t take a pre/mid/post position on rapture. I didn’t even know what pre/post, etc. was until someone ask the pastor during my welcome to the family class. By the way, that class is one hour for about eight weeks and held on Sunday before church.

    It’s a small church with good vibes and I like being there. I feel close to God during the worship and music part, and learn a lot during the twenty minute sermon. Certain weeks of the month focus on missions or other topics. We have a good sound system so everyone can hear and do music everything from a three piece band to sometimes we have a play that the youth present. About half our music is hymns from the hymnal with organ and piano accompaniment and about half is contemporary Christian Music. It isn’t too loud and we have a projector but no big screens. Our music director is part time and we have a youth pastor and a children’s pastor along with an assistant pastor, all paid We have two secretaries. We cater our church to the young, the middle aged and marrieds and to older people. We want all ages to enjoy the music and the service. That’s one reason we’re not too loud.

    A simple church for simple people. I’m happy to be there, but we are somewhat ecumenical and often celebrate Thanksgiving with a pie night with several other churches. I’m a simple man and I prefer a simple church. I think we’re all trying to reach God. This is the way I’ve chosen and I’m pretty happy in it.

    So that’s me and my experience. Thank you Reuben for presenting the Angelical view and thanks to others who have taught me that the liturgical church is also a church of thinking and loving Christians and I’m now of the view that there is a church that is right for every person, and each person should find that church. I guess you can call that “voting with your feet,” but I never left a church in anger or protest.

    And happy Independence Day all.

  16. London says:

    Thanks for sharing these Reuben

  17. J.U. says:

    I’ll try this and see if it works. I’ll post a link to the EFCA Statement of Faith. Each independent church must vote and accept this statement. Ours did. It was rewritten from a 1950’s version a few years ago. It got minor updates and a small change regarding tribulation, but again I don’t really understand those details well anyway.

    Our church did accept this statement and the old statement was taught in the welcome class. People should know the beliefs of their church. Baptists were pretty loosey-goosey in their beliefs (my opinion) and the ancient liturgical churches have a lot of tradition and thought in their beliefs. That I’ve learned here.

    http://go.efca.org/resources/document/efca-statement-faith

  18. Gary,
    It was based more on what seemed to be your criticism of the CoE laying out the 39 Articles that distinguish themselves from what they consider error. They go to great detail to explain what they believe and your response is “My church / My pastor.

    Well, I know what the CoE believes, I know what Lutherans believe (when I say believe, I mean I know how they process their biblical thoughts) but tell us what your church and pastor believe – and don’t just say “we believe the Bible … my JW friends tell me that.” 😉 .

    Here is what Lutherans believe … well, with all the Lutheran groups that have gone down the tubes, this is what they should believe.

    http://bookofconcord.org/

  19. Gary says:

    JU,
    Your church is similar to mine in many ways except that we don’t have Jack Hayford. I especially liked this phrase “… we take a lot of time to go through one book and wring out the context and present application.” Happy 4th!

  20. J.U. says:

    Gary, I don’t know who Jack Hayford is? Is he an EFCA preacher?

  21. Jack Hayford is a Pentecostal – not EV Free – Church Swindoll was EV Free

  22. J.U. says:

    I Googled Hayford and right away saw the Pentecostal part. Our church isn’t opposed to pentecostal ways, but we have a rule of no speaking in tongues during a service. That is simply to keep it from making others uncomfortable. We don’t oppose speaking in tongues, but we are not Pentecostal like the Assembly of God. We want a no orderly and welcoming service and so that’s why we have that restriction.

    Again, I’m not much into detailed doctrine and I suppose I’m pretty ecumenical myself and I think our church is that way too.

    I think what best describes my view is what my pastor and friend once said. Someone ask him what he did and he said he was a pastor. They said they didn’t think much of religion. He replied that neither did he!

    That’s my view. Religion is man’s poor attempt to worship God. But we’re fallen and imperfect and we often get it wrong.

    Some religions contain wolves in sheep’s clothing. So it is a dangerous situation as this blog often testifies to. I think that celebrity preachers is a very dangerous thing for both the preacher and the congregation. Few celebrity preachers get it right. Billy Graham is the only one I can think of and maybe he fell down too.

  23. J.U. says:

    I recognized Chuck Swindoll from a poster I saw once. I read the Wiki article on him. Otherwise I don’t know about him, but you saw my last post about Celebrity preachers. It’s a tough row to hoe, in my opinion. Fame is tough on everyone from movie stars to preachers to politicians.

    I know, I was famous once. At least in my own mind.

  24. Gary says:

    Being a simp I don’t know how to post a link so I copied/pasted my little insignificant church’s new and shallow statement of what we kinda sorta believe (when we feel like it, nyhuk nyuk). If you attempt to pick it apart I’ll just refer you to your last lines “Here is what Lutherans believe … well, with all the Lutheran groups that have gone down the tubes, this is what they should believe.” Enjoy!

    1. We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.

    2. We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    3. We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.

    4. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.

    5. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.

    6. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.

    7. We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
    —————————————————————————————————-
    We fellowship and partner with other evangelical, Bible-teaching churches, and hold to the axiom first attributed to Augustine (354-430 AD) and embraced by evangelical churches ever since:
    In the essentials, unity,
    in the non-essentials, liberty;
    in all things, charity.

  25. Gary says:

    lol Church Swindoll. good one. Has jack Hayford changed his religion? I thought he was EVFree. Sorry, JU. My bad.

  26. J.U. says:

    Gary,

    If you follow my link (which all I did was paste the address from my browser) and you’ll see that the EFCA statements are almost identical to yours only maybe a bit more wordy.

    I often read on this blog ecumenical statements about other churches but descriptions of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses as cults, and cults is not meant to be a compliment.

    Maybe we could work on an ecumenical statement of faith What are the essentials of the Christian faith. What must a brother or sister believe at the minimum to be a brother or sister of you and me?

    I’m afraid that might start some more food fights, but it would be a good extension of the work that Reuben has started here.

    In this age of independent churches, the statement of belief doesn’t seem to be center stage any longer.

    On a side note, one of the largest churches in town is nondenominational. They started out members of some denomination, but dropped it somewhere in the late twentieth century. I wonder why.

  27. J.U. says:

    I hadn’t even noticed the “Church” vs. “Chuck.” Freudian slip perhaps. And, of course, “Chuck” is a swear word to some on PhxP. 🙂 Maybe that is why you typed “Church.”

  28. Gary says:

    JU,
    That’s one way newer churches differ from older ones. The newer statements of faith are more basic, less wordy.

  29. J.U. says:

    I was not clear in #17. All EFCA are independent and that means they don’t have to accept the statement of faith. Either the previous one from the 50’s or the current one.

    I don’t know if most accept the statement or not or if most follow our business guidelines. On a blog about church abuse and pastors stealing money, that’s an important point to make.

    However, all the structure, hierarchy, and even courts of the Roman Catholic Church didn’t save it from its particular modern crisis with child abuse of young boys. In fact, it appears the bureaucracy chose to hide the facts and cover things up.

    A lesson from recent events in Egypt. You can have elections. You can have a constitution. It may not matter. It’s the guys with the big guns.

    Don’t take that analogy too far in reference to churches. But nations and churches are both made up of fallen, imperfect people. That may be why Theologies fail worse than Democracies. It’s all messy. Like making sausage.

    Now I’m getting hungry for breakfast.

  30. Gary says:

    Preachers on the radio are also celebrities in that people put them up on pedestals. Some preachers accept the adoration and some reject it. You can tell by the focus of the teaching.

  31. Here is a good beginning of basics. I can call anyone and everyone “brother / sister” who can confess this. Start picking it apart, we may have issues.

    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

    Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

    And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

  32. J.U. says:

    Yes, less wordy is important. But I think the point that MLD is making, and it is true in my church, the statement of faith is not visited weekly.

    As I said, it was taught in the single “Welcome to the Family” class which was required. And it came up a lot when we studied the new version in preparation for voting. The Pastor gave ten sermons on it point by point.

    But I haven’t heard it mentioned since.

    I’ll give that point to Liturgical Churches, even if they say it in old Shakespearean language.

    Still, it isn’t what is written or what is spoken, but rather how we all live our lives. I like my church. The people seem to live a life of Christ. I don’t know their hearts or their secrets, but what I see I like.

    It’s a good family and a good body to belong to. It lifts me up and holds me accountable. At least as much as any modern church.

    I mostly depend on my gut instinct because I believe I’ve got the Holy Spirit in my gut and that’s leading me in the right direction. I misstep, but the God corrects me. I don’t hear voices in my head, but when I read the Scriptures (which I do every day) God speaks to me.

  33. Gary says:

    The Church was infiltrated from the beginning. Paul spoke to that. Every church is infiltrated to a lesser or greater degree. That’s why churches split and new ones come into being all the time. Then they get corrupted. It’s something I and my church fight. It’s like middle age and getting old. You have to fight complacency and little lies.

  34. Gary says:

    MLD,
    You’ll allow me to pick apart the Nicene creed? Thanks! Is it the International Consultation on English Texts translation or the English Language Liturgical Commission translation? Actually, it doesn’t look like either translation. Must be the Lutheran version.

    Well, it’s ok. A bit wishy-washy in parts but that may just be due to the archaic language.

    We’ve discussed this before and as you know I reject the apostolic succession part and the catholic part. If you believe in the universal church you ought to say so.

  35. J.U.
    I have a question that I have often wondered about and I think it would make a great discussion. In your first post you said “I didn’t find it making me closer to God. I was seeking a more personal relationship…”

    What do people mean when they say that? How do you “get closer to God” – my goodness, he lives in you. Talk about up close and personal.

    So it can’t really mean closer and personal – what does it mean? I hear it in songs also.

    This is not a challenge – let’s just call it the beginning of a conversation

  36. Gary says:

    JU,
    What you like about your church is exactly what I like about mine. 🙂

  37. Gary,
    Actually I just grabbed it off of this site – http://www.ccel.org/

  38. Reuben says:

    MLD @31,

    We recite Nicene every “normal” service as part of the Liturgy. Your version is “altered”.

  39. “If you believe in the universal church you ought to say so.”

    I believe in the universal church! Actually we call it the invisible church … but universal church is OK too.

  40. Gary says:

    More personal means more discourse between me and God. His sheep hear His voice. He interprets scripture and the rest of my world.

  41. J.U. says:

    MLD,

    I’ve got that one embedded in my memory from my times at the Lutheran Church, and they were good times. I used to struggle with “the quick and the dead.” I thought it pertained to pedestrians in Los Angeles. 🙂 Having that statement embedded on your conscious is a good thing.

    Just teasing. I agree it is a very good statement of faith and has some details that I believe strongly in that are not included in the EFCA statement.

    I think, if you count the words, it is no more wordy than the EFCA statement.

    I agree that it is a good “occam’s razor” to shave off the heretics. The simplest explanation of the true Christian Faith and all those that agree I would call brothers and sisters in the faith. (Even if they do speak in tongues and dance in the aisles on occasion.)

    And regarding the dancing, sorry Baptists.

    Now I need to put up a bunch of smiley faces. 🙂 B-)

  42. Xenia says:

    That’s one way newer churches differ from older ones. The newer statements of faith are more basic, less wordy.<<<

    They have the luxury of being less wordy because all the complicated stuff was hammered out by the ancient Church centuries before the Reformation and her children. You can say "We believe in the Trinity" and congratulate yourself on your blessed gift of simplicity, forgetting that in the early centuries, the term "Trinity" required extensive explanation.

    So thank the Lord for the ancient Church. Better yet, go visit the ancient Church next Sunday!

  43. J.U. says:

    MLD,

    I’ve often thought about that question too. I have a brother in Christ who also left the Lutheran church for an evangelical church and he says that “personal relationship” stuff all the time.

    I don’t have an answer. The best I can say is that I find my church a little less boring than the Lutheran, and that’s not a good answer at all. By the way, my old Lutheran church had an excellent pastor and I loved his sermons. It was the Liturgy that started to bore me.

    Now, as to what most evangelicals mean when they talk about a personal relationship I think they mean that they feel a strong presence of Christ in their life. I mentioned how I think the Holy Spirit directs me on occasion.

    Further, I would never deny that good Lutherans, or as far as that goes good Catholics, don’t feel the presence of God in their life.

    Just as Michael responded to Xenia a few weeks ago regarding “my prayers are with the family,” it is a bit cliche.

    So, I can’t describe it and I can’t define it. I do feel it. I believe I have a close relationship and that my current church nurtures that more than my previous. But I often contrast that with Pentecostal religions that seem to be so filled with the Holy Spirit that they are dancing in the streets and the Holy Spirit is flowing from their mouths.

    I’m not personally comfortable with either end of the scale from Liturgical to Pentecostal. Maybe it’s like a comfortable room temperature and each to his own.

    So, in an honest answer to you very good question MLD, I don’t know. Maybe its just a cliche, but it seemed to fit my mood and feelings.

    But I believe the truth is in the Word and in thinking about God’s Word, and I distrust to some extent “feelings.” How’s that for a contradiction?

    Where did I see some comment about the “Jesus is my buddy” attitude of modern evangelical churches? I am critical, too, of that kind of thinking. Jesus is my role model, not my “buddy.”

  44. Xenia says:

    What is preventing anyone at any church from having a “personal relationship with Christ?” Who is stopping anyone from private devotions, which is where the relationship is best developed? Who is stopping anyone from going into their prayer closet and talking with the Lord?

  45. Xenia says:

    Seriously, I don’t get it. Why does the presence of a rock band on the platform and an hour-long sermon cause a person to have a “personal relationship with Christ” while a church service consisting mostly of Scripture readings and prayer discourages this?

    Who is to blame here?

  46. Gary says:

    Xenia,
    I don’t say I believe in the Trinity. I believe God has revealed Himself in what we can understand as a trinity though. I don’t have to buy into all the branches of a tree if I’m abiding in the vine. I reject a lot of the branches. Not actively, like a “Protestant” but I can be if necessary.

    The older intermission religions are like the older brother in the story of the prodigal son. Steeped in law and resentful of the younger brother after his return to the Father.

    I escaped from the intermediate church of the holy intermission, what you call the ancient church. Why would I go back to that slavery? I do thank God for His word though and the early church before the fall into official heresy.

  47. J.U. says:

    Xenia,

    Yes, you’ve said that before and so well. You and MLD are the two primary people on here that have rekindled my love of the Liturgical church. I also find both of your explanation true to the Word of God and uplifting and educating.

    I’m just a poor sinner who is trying to find his way and I appreciate all the saints on this blog that have given me words of wisdom and deeper understanding of just where I am today with relation to God and the Trinity.

    It’s still a mystery, but I appreciate the Christian thought and even the Christian argument on this blog. It is a service to me and I wish you two and Michael and all the other PhxP family a blessed holiday.

    Who knows, Xenia, I might take you up on your offer. That church of Reuben’s is near by.

  48. Xenia says:

    God bless you on your journey, J.U.

  49. Xenia says:

    LOL, well, I don’t consider the Anglican Church to be especially “ancient” but it’s a step in the right direction!

  50. Gary says:

    Xenia #44,
    Good take on the subject and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

    #45. If you lump all groups together you’ll never get it. One has nothing to do with the other. Don’t lump me in with those guys. Please and thank you! I’m just a simp trying to keep up with you guys.

  51. J.U. says:

    Xenia,

    Lol. Thanks.

  52. Gary says:

    JU,
    I really like this: “Now, as to what most evangelicals mean when they talk about a personal relationship I think they mean that they feel a strong presence of Christ in their life. I mentioned how I think the Holy Spirit directs me on occasion.”

    It’s time I fired up the bbq. I’m smoking beef ribs. Yousa!!

  53. Xenia says:

    Don’t lump me in with those guys<<<

    Possibly I wasn't talking about you.

  54. Reuben says:

    Gary @46,

    I do not follow the “slavery” bit at all. The Anglican church for me has been liberation.

    Liberation from quite a bit, in fact. Starting with man centered theology, man centered worship, man centered preaching… the focus is Christ, every Sunday without fail.

    Probably the biggest change was liberation from the interpretation of the Word of God, as you reportedly accomplish by self proclaimed supernatural means, liberation from a single man’s idealism interjected at every turn, and exchanged with the unclouded presentation of the Word of God which is better suited for the Work of the Holy Spirit.

    The “fall into official heresy” has become increasingly clear to me. It was when the church became about the pastor and congregation.

    I dare be so bold as to say these churches are hell bound works of iniquity, a demonic offspring of the marriage of man and man-god. Pelagian fornicators with the evil one.

  55. Reuben says:

    As a CC guy, I worked under the idea that my objective was to get something from God, and give it to the people. So preparation for a sermon or class was quite a bit of looking for the application that best suited the needs of the people.

    The funny thing was that after my award winning presentation, people would come up to me and say what the Lord showed them. It rarely had anything to do with my points.

    Years later, I see that the reason was the Holy Spirit working despite me. Or maybe that was in spite of me. After all, I had been appointed by men, not by God, nor by the church.

  56. London says:

    I think it’s interesting that MLDs version calls the Holy Spirit “Lord”. I’ve only heard of the Son referred to that way in the past.
    Besides that one small point, I could agree with all points and like the idea of reciting creeds in service
    May return to the Anglican Church down the road on Sunday.

  57. Speaking to “liberation” – it is found in the liturgy. Just take the point of the 4 readings. Here are 4 times during the service that Bible passages are read, just read – not expounded on at all – just letting the word of God speak to the people.

    You won’t find that in a “more free style” church, where, funny now that I think about it, everything is controlled even to not just letting you ponder on the read/spoken word – but you must have it explained to you right there – as if the Spirit cannot speak to you.

  58. Xenia says:

    The Orthodox version of the Creed also calls the Holy Spirit “Lord, giver of life.”

  59. London,
    I think the Holy Spirit has always been called Lord – this from the Athanasian Creed

    “So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

    So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.”

  60. Reuben says:

    MLD @57, absolutely right.

    Following every reading, “The Word of the Lord, thanks be to God.”

  61. Xenia says:

    Around Easter time we have church services where the Bible is read out loud for hours. During Holy Week we have a service where every scripture from the Old Testament that foreshadows the death and resurrection of the Lord is read out loud, including the Dry Bones passage of Ezekiel. Takes hours. No commentary needed.

  62. Reuben says:

    Xenia @61, I would so love to experience that.

  63. Xenia,
    “including the Dry Bones passage of Ezekiel.”

    What?!! that’s not Israel in 1948???

  64. Muff Potter says:

    I’m glad to see civility reign here over questions of religion. It’s also good to see that you folks are not trying to blow up each other’s Mosques (so to speak).

  65. London says:

    Wait, what?!?
    I have never in my life heard the Holy Spirit is Lord that way.
    That messes up my theology (what there is of a theology iny head)
    I thought the whole “Jesus is Lord” thing came from the fact the Father gave him authority over all things, keys to the kingdom and all that…
    Where does it say the Holy Spirit has authority of being a Ruler/Victorious etc?
    Serious inquiry.

  66. Xenia says:

    What?!! that’s not Israel in 1948???<<<

    Nope! 🙂

  67. Gary says:

    Muff #64,
    Yes, except where Reuben lost it in his #54.

  68. Gary says:

    Copied from the top list:

    XVIII. Of obtaining eternal salvation only by the name of Christ.

    THEY also are to be had accursed that presume to say that every man shall be saved by the law or sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that law and the light of nature. For Holy Scripture doth set out to us only the name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.

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