The Weekend Word

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20 Responses

  1. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Got all the grandkids out of the house after 2 weeks of their spring breaks – sat down to watch the Masters – go Jordan Spieth! and I remembered I had an article posted.

    To me such language in this article is all last day stuff even the mention of God’s wrath. I don’t know how people lobby for a chronological reading of Revelation.

  2. John 20:29 says:

    Well, MLD, one side or the other will be surprised, eh?
    🙂
    God keep

  3. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, a Buddhist can say the same thing when confronted with the claims of Christianity -it doesn’t matter, one of us will be surprised.

    But since you are vocal in claiming the chronological position, how does life and time go on past this point where God’s wrath has caused the sun to black out, the mountains and islands to disappear and the sky itself to vanish?
    I find that quite puzzling. This is chapter 6 not chapter 19.

  4. Jean says:

    MLD,

    For those of us who grew up a- millennial, could you explain the chronological position? I’ve never heard that term used before in regards to Revelation. And how does your position contrast with the chronological position? Thanks.

  5. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, as I said in the introduction my position is of recapitulation – the retelling of the same event of the church age over and over with each telling being told with a little more intensity.

    Those who hold the literal and chronological position see chapter 6-19 as being a linear history of the time after the removal of the church (some hold the church removal at later times on this timeline) and having Israel as the subject of God’s wrath – each judgement progressing from the early tribulation period, to the middle and then to the eventual end.

    As you can see the meaning of Revelation ends up having 2 different meanings, purposes and stories being told. Just one problem I see is Rev 11:15 says “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” – In chronological order, somehow in chapter 13 anti Christ begins his rule.

    There is also this connection – the 6th & 7th seals, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowls each end with the same biblical event – the 2nd coming of Jesus.

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    From my introduction a couple of months ago

    Recapitulation
    This is the style John uses telling the Revelation story – the story from God’s point of view. Some examples – (very simple and not comprehensive – just to get the thought rolling.) – at each stop, this is all end of the world language
    • The 7 Seals (5:1 – 8:5) leads to the end = 6:12-17.
    • The 7 Trumpets (8:6 – 11:19) leads to the end = 11:15-19
    • The Interlude (12:1 – 14:20) leads to the end = 14:9-20
    • The 7 Bowls (15:1 – 16:21) leads to the end = 16:17-21
    • If the back half of Revelation were lost to the ages and ended at Rev 7:17, I am sure that the readers would have been satisfied that they had been shown the end and the following heavenly scene.
    • If true, then this would show that John was not writing a chronology, but indeed, retelling the same history, over and over again.

  7. Josh the Baptist says:

    I will admit, the Marty McFly version would be more convenient.

  8. John 20:29 says:

    MLD, there is an element of repetition ultimately leading to an out pouring of the wrath of God, but your attempt to synopsize falls short at best… the questions your conclusions lead to are erroneous
    Thus, i suggest an understanding of the logical conclusions that a dispensational interpretation leads to, including the millenium of Christ’s rule here, will be better understood from studying some good, scholarly adherents to this view
    Hold to your view, give the rationale as you do, competently, but stick to what you seem to understand

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, we see the wrath poured out here in chapter 6 – see v 17 = ” for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

    There is no “leading up” to God’s wrath later – it came in ch 6.

  10. Josh the Baptist says:

    How many Jigowatts of power do you think John used jumping around time like that? 🙂

    (I’m just funning with you MLD. I like Back to the Future very much)

  11. Jean says:

    “Hold to your view, give the rationale as you do, competently, but stick to what you seem to understand”

    If I remember correctly, MLD sat under and taught dispensationalism for 25 years. That he understands it is apparent. That he knows it’s weaknesses is being unveiled weekly. I’m sure MLD is eager to receive questions or biblical critique, if applicable.

  12. John 20:29 says:

    Jean, it seems to me that MLD’s understanding was skewed by the end times hysterical speculation that swept thru the churches at that time… he does not present the view developed thru sound dispensational teaching well…
    I have no problem at all with him presenting the view that he has concluded is the correct one as to how the end will play out… I even agree with much
    But to be safe, keep looking up and pressing on ?

  13. Jean says:

    “he does not present the view developed thru sound dispensational teaching well…”

    Do you have evidence for your accusation?

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, I studied under Pentecost, Walvoord, Ryrie and Lightner. Taught it for over 20 yrs.
    You can claim that I am lacking but you still have not addressed ‘the end’ language and God’s wrath raining down on everyone in chapter 6.
    Please, give it a try.

  15. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We are talking no sun, or moon in normal function, no mountains, islands and most of all no sky. This is no preview to the end.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – I know you are joking but I will add that John is not jumping around time – he is consistently telling the same account of the church age over and over. I like in ch 12 where he covers the entire birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension into heaven in 2 verses. The man has a point to make about Jesus and his church and he will not let up.

  17. John 20:29 says:

    Well, MLD…. I have studied under none of those men and i’d like to leave your challenge unanswered as i am not a teacher…
    The first 6 seals are a panoramic view of the playing out of the history of the last days (centuries) of satan’s time on earth
    Skip to chapter 8, the opening of the 7th seal and i believe you get a description of the unfolding of the tribulation… It is easy to see a repetitive pattern that over the centuries intensifies until the Church is removed and the wrath of God is poured out
    Chapter 15 sets the stage and chapter 16 begins describing what occurs when the vials or bowls of wrath begin to pour out on mankind
    You misunderstand the purpose of the flowchart, which served to prove to me that there was no conflict in what the book of Revelation describes as the chapters unfold
    We snag, for the most part, on the removal of the church before the wrath of God is poured out, the time period involved in this and the return of Christ for a mlilennial reign over mortal man… I am convinced of the logic of this sequence, but being mortal, i’m willing to wait and see… However, what you continue to describe as my view, isn’t
    I haven’t started a conversation with this post and i am aware you’ll jump on it with inaccurate interpretation…. No matter… God keep

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, I use the ESV – what page did the Apostle John put this flowchart – I may have skipped over it.:-)

  19. John 20:29 says:

    Well, MLD, i guess Ill have to send you my translation ?

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em,
    You should like this guy from the Master’s Seminary – purely dispensational. A short 2 1/2 min video about the church and Israel.

    At 10 sec he states that the church is a very important phase of God’s kingdom program —- and then he goes off about Israel’s place.

    The church is just a phase in God’s kingdom program? It’s not the crown, jewel?, the centerpiece? the all in all?

    Look below it, many other clips you may be interested in.

    https://www.tms.edu/news/tms-distinctives-has-the-church-replaced-israel/

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