The Weekend Word

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48 Responses

  1. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I woke up this morning thinking I should look at the rapture / dispensationalist take on chapter 7 to see how the 144K vs unnumbered multitude is handled. To no surprise it was different than mine (which I knew from my 25 yr acquaintance with the position – but 13 yrs away is a long time.)

    So I tuned into my favorite rapture / dispensational pastor / teacher who I trust 100% to accurately present that position (ya’ll know him as a former long time player here on the PP)

    I will say that I was stunned by the separation of God’s people. The 144K described as ethnic national Israel here on earth was no surprise. The multitude as Christian believers out of ‘the great tribulation (we would have a difference as to what that is) is likewise no surprise. But the way he divided them floored me.

    The multitude of ch 7 are said to be different than those Christians described in ch 5.
    The Christians in ch 5 it is claimed are ‘the Church’ after the rapture and the ‘Church’ itself ends with the rapture (The Church was described as the period between Pentecost and the Rapture and no more) – this group is described as those who reign with Christ around the throne.

    The group in ch 7 are those who were saved later (after the rapture – post church era) not surviving the pains of death in the great tribulation. However they are distinct and they do not reign with Christ but they ‘serve’ Christ around the throne.

    So, we now have 3 peoples of God – the earthly 144K – saved and sealed – the raptured church ruling and reigning with Jesus and the great multitude serving Jesus.

    However, there is more – a 4th group – and that will be saved Israel that comes to faith at the very end of the great tribulation right before the 2nd coming when they realize the deception of the anti Christ.

    Holy smokes!

  2. Josh the Baptist says:

    “the best you can do is guess what Revelation is about.”

    You think you have the key? Wow.
    If this is the Amil uinderstanding of Revelation Ineed to print it and hand it out to people who want to study it. This will drive them to the premil position quicker than anything I could offer 🙂

  3. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, you always do such a wonderful job of making my point. If you are being taught, and if you teach others they can make heads or tails of Revelation without a good thorough OT education, well what can I say except to restate that this is the reason that evangelical booksellers make a fortune on Left Behind type books.

  4. Josh the Baptist says:

    Yet you have not at all demonstrated a good “heads or tails” understanding in this 1,000 week series. Hmmm.

  5. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m always pointing the OT, as are most premil teachers. Particularly, Daniel.

  6. Josh the Baptist says:

    I also know absolutely nothing of this “multiple people of God” stuff that you always go on about.

  7. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Do you really think the interpretation that MLD showed in #1 makes more sense than the interpretation he’s teaching?
    I find it bizarre to say the least and I have some sympathy with a premill (not pretrib) view…

  8. Duane Arnold says:

    In my opinion, The Revelation is kaleidoscopic – multiple fragmented images circulating and shifting around a central theme. The problem comes when we wish to impose a chronology and definitive locations (identifications) on something that is clearly not bound by time or geography.

  9. Josh the Baptist says:

    @ 7 – My assumption is that MLD is misrepresenting the actual teaching in #1. I’ve never seen anyone teach “4 people of God”.

  10. Josh the Baptist says:

    @ 8 – That is similar to MLD’s view, but surely you guys would say, if your view is true…Revalation could mean anything. There would no way to really understand the swirling kaleidoscope picture.

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, you are free to listen to his account.
    You keep bringing up the amil vs pre mil. I have not said anything about either as the text has yet to address it.
    The major point that I see as heresy would be the position that there are Christians outside of Jesus’ church.

  12. Josh the Baptist says:

    “Josh, you are free to listen to his account.”

    Nope.

    “The major point that I see as heresy would be the position that there are Christians outside of Jesus’ church.”

    This may be a point of semantics. One would have to define “Church” here to be sure. If you mean that one cannot be saved apart from Christ, I agree 100%.

  13. Duane Arnold says:

    #10 Josh

    I think much of the symbolism is obscure to 21st century reader. The central figure of Christ caring for his people is the center point of the kaleidoscope that remains constant… It’s the best I can come up with in terms of absolute certainty…

  14. Michael says:

    Josh,

    No, Revelation can’t mean “anything”.
    We take the historical time involved, the literary genre involved, and the symbols seen elsewhere and try to make sense of a book written in 1st century code.
    At this juncture, I find MLD’s version more in line with that than the dispensationalism I was raised on…

  15. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh I’m 5 hours into a 10-hour round trip to California to pick my mother-in-law up to bring her back out to the desert look I’ve listened to opposing positions you might want to do the same but if you can give me a source of the premal dispensation position that doesn’t show that the church ceases to exist at the Rapture I’ll listen to it because what this other Pastor was and we know who it is and the is that the church doesn’t exist after chapter 5 and so the people in chapter 7 are different body of people Saints but they’re not a part of the church.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    My last post was voice to text as I’m driving so I hope it makes sense.

  17. Josh the Baptist says:

    Is it Steve Wright? Are we not allowed to say his name?

  18. Josh the Baptist says:

    @13 – I agree to alarge extent, and appreciate the honesty.

  19. Josh the Baptist says:

    @14 – Agreed with all but your last sentence. I think MLD is speaking dogmatic gobbeldy-goop.

  20. Michael says:

    I think seeing the 144,000 as the complete people of God rather than Jewish virgins who become evangelists is a more credible stance, but that’s just me…

  21. Josh the Baptist says:

    Well, the text says they are Jewish virgins. Evangelists is speculation, but makes sense. In context, it can’t be talking about all the people of God of all time.

  22. Josh the Baptist says:

    Again, if you can make 144,000 mean “all God’s people”, then just admit that Revelation could mean anything.

  23. Michael says:

    I would tend to think that in light of how the OT used “adultery’ as a metaphor for idolatry, the “virginity” referenced here is probably faithfulness to God…this scripture comes to mind…

    “For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.”
    (2 Corinthians 11:2 ESV)

  24. Josh the Baptist says:

    Could be.

  25. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh I think the confusion comes in and that my view of Revelation is about Jesus Christ and his people in his church. You believe that the Book of Revelation is about Israel in the end times and all the things that amount into that yours is Israeli Center of mine’s more christocentric and I guess that’s just our difference in hermeneutics.

  26. Josh the Baptist says:

    @ 25 – Wrong. But that would make it easire for you to discount my view.

  27. John 20:29 says:

    I admit that the only close look, beginning to end, look that i have spent focused on the book of Revelation was to prove to myself that the book had a logical flow, did not randomly jump all over in God’s mind, nor was it corseted into the graphic style of charting that some teachers have constructed in order to make a visual teaching aid.
    Yes, there seems to be a pattern of layering, but nothing is a blatant repetition, only more in depth… there are chapters that seem to be inserted for the purpose of elaboration and there is that mysterious direction given John to not record what he’d just witnessed in one instance…. as i hear the dispensational teachers (ones with good credentials – IMO ), the rapturists, the millenialists i have not heard anything that stretches the book out of kilter and there seems to be a clear recognition of O.T. harmony.
    I am happy to give MKD’s teachings here credebility. It is, after all, a presentation of ancient academics… But he does make some pretty peculiar accusations that seem to be cherry picked from off base or misinterpretation of teachers in the rapture/millennium camp
    I don’t much care if the Church gets zapped up to line up behind and follow Christ in His return to clean house down here or if we are removed earlier on to escape the wrath (of God) to come… I just pray for souls to be saved and the plan finished ASAP. But that said, the rapture and millennial camp make as much, or more, sense than what MKD is presenting here… IMNSHO ?

  28. Josh the Baptist says:

    Verse 8 finishes the list of 12,000 per tribe.

    Verse 9 starts with “After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number,”

    We can disagree on who the 144,000 are. We can even agree on how many there actually are. No faithful reading of the text can say the 144,000 and the great multitude of verse 9 are the same group.

  29. Josh the Baptist says:

    Now i realize that was last week’s error, but it spilled over into this week. This week’s lesson starts with telling us who the Great Multitude are. SPOILER ALERT: They aren’t the 144,000.

  30. Josh the Baptist says:

    Finally, we klnow that the great ultiture coems out of something called The Great Tribulation. What is that?

    According to MLD “The GReat Tribulation” is where Christ is preached.

    Come on, people. I know we hate dispies, but that makes zero sense.

  31. Josh the Baptist says:

    Pinched for time, making terrible typos again, sorry. @30 “The great multitude comes out of the great tribulation”

  32. Duane Arnold says:

    #30 Josh

    I don’t have a particular view on The Revelation (amil, postmil, etc.). What I can say with some degree of certainty is that the book has at lest three sources that we are pretty well certain about –
    1. The Hebrew Scriptures and the LXX (with their variations)
    2. Contemporary life in the Roman province of Asia
    3. Almost 300 years of Jewish Apocalyptic Literature
    Added to this, there were almost certainly precursors to other contemporary literature like the Shepherd of Hermas being circulated in the Christian community. The Revelation did not arise in a literary or cultural vacuum.

    With a working knowledge of the numbers, symbols, images, etc., in the works (and society) listed above, we can give at least an educated opinion as to what is being described. Even then, however, I think we need to be humble in terms of our conclusions as to specifics.

  33. Josh the Baptist says:

    @32 – Completely agree.

    Completely.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, you fall to the same error as you did last week about being told of the 144K and next turning to see the vast multitude.

    Last week you refused to answer the Lion / Lamb rendition of the same thing (I think you called it a gotcha question) where John was told about the Lion of Judah and next when he turned around, He saw the lamb.

    The Lion / Lamb descriptions represent the same entity just as the 144K and the vast multitude represent the same entity.

  35. Josh the Baptist says:

    I said it mixes categories, which it still does.

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Which one? or both?

  37. Josh the Baptist says:

    The question mixes categories.

  38. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So what do you read in the Lion / Lamb phrasing? You don’t see that John heard the speaker in the vision describing a Lion and then John seeing a lamb? What is your takeaway if you were teaching?

  39. Josh the Baptist says:

    Yes, it is unrelated to the 144,000.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    You miss the point. John uses this as a literary style – told one thing, turn and see another – but both describe the same entity – Lion / Lamb = the savior. The 144K / multitude = the church.

  41. Josh the Baptist says:

    No, no he doesn’t. That’s where you are skipping accross categories. Doesn’t work.

  42. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Then in your own words what do you think John is trying to communicate with the lion / lamb thing. This is what I asked earlier – if you were teaching this…

  43. Josh the Baptist says:

    Its a subject change that I don’t see the need to follow.

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    OK

  45. Josh the Baptist says:

    How ya been?

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Doing good. Love being retired. Tired tonight, drove 10 hrs round trip to pick up my 93 yr old mother in law to spend the week with us. Taking her out on the boat tomorrow.

    How about you? Isn’t it past your bed time?

  47. Josh the Baptist says:

    You were correct. Had already fallen asleep. 🙂 Glad everything is going so well for you. All is good here. Have fun with the MIL today!

  48. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD – read this when you get a few minutes, and tell me what you think:

    http://sbcvoices.com/a-mild-rebuke-to-my-fellow-dispensationalists/

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