The Weekend Word

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79 Responses

  1. I really think in this small passage that the Holy Spirit through this writer is stating that Judaism is dead as a valid form to associate with God. Although the temple is still standing, although the priesthood is still operating, and although people are still bringing animals for sacrifice it is all over and done – since the moment of death on the cross and the tearing of the temple curtain.
    The 2 parts of this are
    1.) There is no longer a need to have descendants of Aaron mediate between man and God
    2.) God was breaking out of the temple in judgement on the people who had rejected his some.

    Torn curtain = come look, God is no longer here. Come look, there are no sacrifices done here. The scene has shifted to heaven.

  2. Jean says:

    “how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

    This last verse is huge and helps me understand a couple related matters.

    1) In order to “serve” (and hear the sense worship) the living God, one needs an interior cleansing, not a mere exterior cleansing. This is available on through Christ’s self-sacrifice.

    2) This new “service” is what Jesus meant when he said: “But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.”

    3) Paul puts it slightly different, but makes the same basic point: “For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.”

    4) We can connect the purification of our conscience with the circumcision of the heart and with God’s promise through Ezekiel to give his people (now extended to all nations) “a heart of flesh.”

    Thanks MLD. This is great stuff.

  3. Em says:

    “Sins of ignorance – it shows that even ignorance has consequences.” i think we can go one step further with this… not only do those sins have consequences, this demonstrates that we are corrupt even beyond our ability to discern – even if we would try to confess every single transgression, our minds aren’t pure enough to identify them all (and it probably would discourage us, if we did)
    “God be merciful to me, a sinner”

    and hence an amen to MLD and Jean @ 1 & 2

  4. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Torn veil means we now have direct access to the Holy of Holies.

  5. Jean says:

    Let’s clarify the point about the curtain and its tearing.

    In the OT, the temple symbolized the location where Heaven and Earth met. Yet, even there for the Israelites, there was the curtain that restricted the relationship between God and his people. (Interestingly, at the time of Jesus, not all pious Jews believed God’s Shekinah was in the Temple, due to its corruption. But, that is tangent.)

    In the NT, the Incarnation of the Son of God is where Heaven and Earth meet. Jesus is the new temple. “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’”

    So, when we talk about the curtain being torn, the salient point is that in Christ (and only there) human beings have access to God as Father.

    The stone temple in Jerusalem was irrelevant with the first advent of Jesus (arguably before that) and it is and will stay irrelevant for eternity. Anyone who pines for it or builds another will be denying Christ.

  6. A point to Uriah and to agree with Jean.
    We still have a mediated access to the father – that mediation is through the resurrected Christ.

    To agree with Jean, using different words, is that at the moment of Jesus’ death – in a metaphorical way – the Father tore the curtain from the inside as he exited the temple. He left behind an empty carcass of a temple.

  7. Also, I love Jean saying – “Anyone who pines for it or builds another will be denying Christ.”
    Which is exactly what we see as folks misread Ezekiel 40-48 and think there is a new temple coming.
    A new future temple denies everything we have seen in Hebrews.

    God is the God of radical change and that is what God is telling these believing Hebrews – “there is nothing, absolutely nothing to go back to — I killed it.”

  8. Michael says:

    Em,

    Excellent observation.

    This is why I have more than a little scorn for those who think they’re obeying the commandments.
    We have no conception of how deep the sin nature runs.

  9. Em says:

    well, i think the observations of both Uriah and Jean are ‘salient’
    that said,
    the symbology of the tearing of that thick curtain top to bottom should have sent chills down the spines of the Jews… but to the self important Temple High Priest and his crew – to them, i suspect – dunno – it was an irritating random event of nature – what today’s insurance companies would have labeled, ironically, “an act of God” – wonder if they carried insurance against such things back then? 🙂

    but what a beautiful validation of O.T. records pointing to the culmination in Christ of God’s redeeming plan – God’s timing is a study in itself, also

  10. Michael says:

    This is a very difficult passage for those who believe a future temple will be built…

  11. Jean says:

    “This is a very difficult passage for those who believe a future temple will be built…”

    Well, to add to the ‘symbology’ (See Em, two can tango LOL), a future spiritual house is being built:

    “As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:

    ‘Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
    a cornerstone chosen and precious,
    and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.’

    So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

    ‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone,’

    and

    ‘A stone of stumbling,
    and a rock of offense.'”

  12. “And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, ”

    This is what happens when God gets up and leaves the presence of his people – he tears the curtain, the earth shakes and he says to the dead “come with me folks.”

  13. Em says:

    yes, Jean, there is much symbology – not a work of any man, that is certain, eh? the human mind just couldn’t bring so much and so many random events and personalities to this culmination … the end of the beginning and the beginning of the end

    maybe, the Temple as God defines the term is another study – dunno

  14. Em says:

    wouldn’t you think that all those previously declared dead (saints) now walking around would have impacted the High Priest and his crew? talk about denial…

    now i’m gone – God keep

  15. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    I don’t believe that a future temple will be built in the sense that it is ordained by God to build such a place, however, I do believe that if it is possible, the Jews will build a temple, if and when they are able to reclaim the land that housed the former temple. How that works in with other end times prophecy—not sure, but know that the rebuilding of a third temple by the Jews is mentioned several times, although some would say that there wasn’t a 3rd temple, but rather say that what Jesus was speaking had already occurred in 70 AD. I disagree, since the abomination of desolation did not take place along with other things that Jesus mentioned that would occurred in the last days.

    In Revelation 21, towards the last chapter, it tells us about the New Jerusalem that God will bring down from heaven where it was, to the new earth. Specifically states there will be no temple and why;

    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

    16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

    17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

    18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

    19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

    20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

    21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

  16. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    I knew I should have included that when the veil was torn that through Jesus we now had direct access to the Our Father. For He, alone is our High Priest, as much as, He is the Lamb, the perfect sacrifice that put an end to the sacrificial and priestly system.

  17. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Curious though, even after Jesus ascended, the disciples/followers were meeting together at the temple or synagogue.

    Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:46-47, NIV).

    Of course, the Temple itself was only to be assessed by the Levites and the Priests, and in place was called the Holy of Holies, only the High Priest could entered in. But the Synagogue was where many activities took place: education, discussions, festivities, community activities, court, and the reading of the Torah. Much like, except for the “court” those places where those who claims Christ as their Savior today. Christian Jews came together in the synagogue, as well as, met in homes in the name of Jesus.

  18. The disciples met at the temple and synagogue as a common meeting place they were familiar with and a place to tell others about Jesus.

    Surely you don’t think they went for any ‘religious’ purpose do you?

  19. Jean says:

    Well, MLD, there was that one day when Peter was low on cash. So he gave the lame guy what he had. 🙂

  20. Em says:

    i think MLD answered the question as to why the disciples continued going to the temple… but my question is, did they yet fully understand the doctrines that would be developed during their years (months or years) of ministry? God the Holy Spirit moved through those early years impacting with an intensity (maybe not correct term) that we haven’t seen since, have we?

  21. Em – I don’t know about the disciples etc, but I am quite sure that the writer to the Hebrews fully understood where things had changed – and that is where we are at in the study. Are we ready to cut our ties to the old system and become the children of God… the followers of Christ or are we going to stay back where it is comfortable, even as a putrefying corpse.

  22. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Dunno, but do know they continue to keep the Holy Days, as well as, call to remembrance how Paul went through the ritual of purification. At the same time, he convinced them not to lay these things on the non-Jewish Christians.

  23. Michael says:

    “Are we ready to cut our ties to the old system and become the children of God… the followers of Christ or are we going to stay back where it is comfortable, even as a putrefying corpse.”

    Exactly.
    That is why I think “Messianic” Christianity is nonsense.

  24. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    As persecution grew from both sides (Judaism and Rome/Greek) against the Christian Jews, not non-Jewish Christians, they stopped meeting in the synagogue, alternately meeting where ever they could, all the while being increasingly dispersed to other lands.

  25. Jean says:

    Uriah,
    I’m beginning to wonder if either you don’t like the Bible, don’t read it or have the worst Bible teacher in the world.

    Could Paul be anymore clear:

    “But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. (Gal 4:9-10)

    And for our SDA friends, what do you suppose Paul meant in verse 9 by “days”?

  26. Jean says:

    Here is Paul’s (yes the zealous Hebrew of Hebrews Paul) opinion about Torah observance:

    “For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.” 1( Cor 9:19-21)

  27. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hurried, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

    Peter told us in Colossians:

    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Acts 18:21 Paul stated:

    21 but took leave of them, saying,

    “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.

  28. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Interesting: Paul’s mentioning of his desire to keep the feast is left out of the ESV.

    Prior citing is from NKJV

    KJV:

    20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not;

    21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

  29. Michael says:

    “Interesting: Paul’s mentioning of his desire to keep the feast is left out of the ESV.”

    Which means it isn’t in the best manuscripts and was probably a scribal addition.

  30. Michael says:

    Please use the correct terminology.
    It wasn’t “left out” as if someone didn’t like it for some reason, it shouldn’t have been there in the first place.
    It wasn’t included because it didn’t exist in the earlier manuscripts.

  31. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Consider:

    http://www.bethelcog.org/church/general-articles/gods-commandments/gods-holy-days-for-christians-today

    Yeah, I know—it isn’t Reformed, Lutheran, or Orthodox, but it is a well written article base upon scripture and ought to be given as much weight as the former. After all, we understand and follow God’s Word first and foremost from Scripture, alone–right..

  32. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Michael, that is nonsense and you know this. You are only touting higher criticism as being superior to translations that would or does put forth that which others would like others to believe ever was in Scripture. There are a whole body of Christ that would disagree with you on this, just as many would disagree with them. We need to consider it all, then pray about it, and ask for wisdom in knowing what is and what is not.

    You really do need to balance your position by also posing the positions of others without the put-downs and sarcasm.

  33. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    I’m going to go now—-Shalom, in Jesus

    And thank you, Lord for the opportunity and insight this blog has provided.

  34. Michael says:

    uriah,

    You don’t know nonsense from truth.
    You are the product of people who refuse to engage in any sort of scholarship and hold onto insular error as if it were life itself.

    You would be well served to sit and listen to people who are doing historical theology properly…even when one may disagree with them.

    I let a lot of nonsense go for a long time, but I’m not going to let this board deteriorate into some sort of haven for hillbilly theology.

    The ESV is not a product of “higher criticism”…that’s laughable.
    It’s the product of advances in the quality of manuscripts available and studies in the original languages.

    Here’s what the KJV crowd and the Messianics have in common.
    They both want to be special flowers in the kingdom.

  35. Uriah, I have been chewing on this one for a couple of hours – your #15 at 12:15. In speaking of the 3rd temple (which is never mentioned in the Bible) you said “I don’t believe that a future temple will be built in the sense that it is ordained by God to build such a place, however, I do believe that if it is possible, the Jews will build a temple,…”

    You then make the case that there must be a 3rd temple because the 2nd has been destroyed and “since the abomination of desolation did not take place along with other things that Jesus mentioned that would occurred in the last days.”

    If it is a temple – not ordained by God, how can someone cause the “abomination of desolation” since it is already an holy, non ordained place?

    Also, 70AD was well into the ‘last days’.

  36. Michael says:

    If, If you would take even ONE basic class in church history, you would be disabused of some of this crap.

    I listen to my Lutheran, Orthodox, Reformed, etc brethren…because they have a historical grounding in reality and a developed theological system that considers all the issues that are pertinent to good study.

    I will not consider that which someone can know is false with minimal study.

  37. since it is already an holy, non ordained place? = since it is already AN UNHOLY, non ordained place?

  38. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Oh, I have studied much on church history, including that which lies beyond that history that was created by those whom you think are the end all of what Christian history contains.

    I think you would do well to do likewise.

  39. Michael says:

    uriah,

    You have quite obviously never read a single standard book on church history.

    This remark “that history that was created by those whom you think are the end all of what Christian history contains” is pure proof of that.

    I’m not going to argue with you, but you’re not going to post that foolishness here.

  40. Jean says:

    All this back and forth about law keeping, and guess who and what has been tossed to the side. The devil is having a good day.

    Paul said it once, and I will repeat it here, even though there some bound wills here:

    “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”

  41. Michael says:

    Jean,

    My apologies.
    I have felt for some time that I needed to get a handle on the weird stuff that gets posted here.
    I’m very pleased with what MLD has accomplished in these studies, even though I don’t always agree with him.
    I want to keep a standard here…and I’m probably overboard at this point.

  42. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    MLD

    Appreciate the response and civility.

    “If it is a temple – not ordained by God, how can someone cause the “abomination of desolation” since it is already an holy, non ordained place?

    Also, 70AD was well into the ‘last days’.

    It does pose a dilemma, doesn’t it.

    I don’t think 70 AD was well into the “last days.” Maybe the half way point, perhaps. Meaning since Adam, historically speaking, it is estimated that 3000 years had passed and now we are in the year 2015, meaning another 1945 years will shortly pass.

    Perhaps, the rebuilding of the temple, for a 3rd time is part of God’s plan, but not as it will be as stated in Revelation 21, whereas, the new earth and heaven’s throne will be merged into the New Jerusalem. Please don’t trip on the term, “merge.” It’s just my way of picturing it.

    Perhaps, the 3rd temple built by the hand of humans is that which will draw the antichrist to claiming it as his own, but God will use it to expose him and to bring all things to the final apocalypse that ends in casting Satan and the antichrist into the abyss. Perhaps, this is the event that God uses to open the eyes of the Jews to reveal himself to them, once and for all. Romans 11.

  43. Michael says:

    “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”
    (Colossians 2:16–17 ESV)

    In other words, all these things have been fulfilled in Christ.
    Not replaced…fulfilled.

  44. Xenia says:

    Hadn’t the Shekinah Glory departed the temple long before the time of Christ when the temple was looted at the time of the Babylonian captivity?

  45. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I’ve never asked this…what translation do the Orthodox use?

  46. Xenia says:

    We generally use the KJV for liturgical readings because of its lofty tone. The Orthodox Study Bible uses the New KJV (except for the Apocrypha). We don’t use the NIV.

  47. Jean says:

    “Jean,

    My apologies.”

    Michael,
    No apologies needed. You’re a 21st Century Irenaeus. 🙂

    I understand that like any family, the Christian family is a messy affair, what with the fact that we are sinners and all. It’s easy to be insular or a sect. It’s definitely more challenging to be open to differing opinions. But differing opinions never means that there are different truths. I’m glad you and others are calling out error whenever it arises.

  48. Xenia says:

    Traditionally Orthodox countries like Russia and Greece have their own translations, of course.

  49. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I wondered if they put a greater weight on the Alexandrian texts…because they were the curators of them.

  50. Jean says:

    “Hadn’t the Shekinah Glory departed the temple long before the time of Christ when the temple was looted at the time of the Babylonian captivity?”

    Xenia,
    That certainly is N.T. Wright’s argument, and I think it is credible. The Essenes also appear to have thought the same thing.

    Nice to have your participation. 🙂

  51. Xenia says:

    I don’t know much about that, Michael. Something to study up on.

  52. Actually Xenia is correct and a point I have argued before – I don’t know how it escaped me here.
    “Hadn’t the Shekinah Glory departed the temple long before the time of Christ when the temple was looted at the time of the Babylonian captivity?”

    God had no presence in the temple after the captivity or upon the return. This was the big point in Luke 2 with Simeon and Anna – why they made such a big deal about when Jesus was brought to the temple as a baby, THIS was the return of God to the Holy Temple.

  53. Jean says:

    For anyone interested in an EO evaluation of English Bible translations, this article is quite helpful (and would be of value to anyone):

    http://www.saintjonah.org/articles/translations.htm

  54. Xenia says:

    That is a good article, Jean. I am a big fan of the author, Fr. John Whiteford.

  55. Jean says:

    Xenia,
    Thank you for the referral to the EO Facebook group.

  56. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    I think the author the link I posted said it well regarding keeping the law. In my words, the laws are no longer to be kept in a legal sense, but rather are done from the heart. That is, law convicts us as sinners, but being circumcised of the heart permits us to abide by those things that give honor, praise, and glory to the Lord. Not a check off list, but rather a way out of Egypt, once being in bondage to sin, but now set free.

    Being in Christ, we do not sin because of the harm it does to self and others. We go far beyond the letter of the law and think deeply in what the impact of doing this or that may have upon ourselves, others, our community, children, and generations to come. It is the love that was placed in our hearts by Him that provokes us to do right and to live a life that would honor and bear witness to that love He so freely poured out through the shedding of His blood.

    Where in Scripture does it say that the Shekinah glory left the temple when God brought them back first to rebuild the temple, then to resettle Israel. And if He was present in the 2nd temple, then why did Jesus drive out the money changer, not once, but twice, saying:

    12And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, “It is written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER’; but you are making it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

    and before this, why did He tell us to:

    Luke (KJV)

    34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. 38And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

  57. Uriah – God left the temple when he disband Israel in the captivities – he closed shop.

    As I said above, God reentered the temple in Luke 2 when he arrived in a stroller pushed by his parents. It was his house as you quoted above until he left at his death on the cross.

    Anything short of this leaves Israel and the temple etc as co redeemers with Jesus … and this just is not so. This is my warning against rapture theology and the return of 3rd temple Israel to the scene. An in your face denial of Christianity as stated in the book of hebrews.

  58. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Also, in reference to the Shekinah Glory, why then did God speak to those who were supposed to be rebuilding the temple when they lost their focus and began rebuilding their homes instead. Didn’t He tell them to place watchman on the wall, so that they could work on the temple, while some watched for danger, and others would be working on shelter for those who had returned thus far.

    Ezra 6:14 (KJV)

    14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

  59. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    “Uriah – God left the temple when he disband Israel in the captivities – he closed shop.”

    Wrong—Read Ezra and Nehemiah.

  60. Jean says:

    “Where in Scripture does it say that the Shekinah glory left the temple when God brought them back first to rebuild the temple, then to resettle Israel.”

    I am agreeing with MLD, but in different words. You Uriah, are asking the wrong question. The question is where does Scripture record the Shekinah Glory entering the 2nd temple (as it does with respect to both the Tabernacle and Solomon’s temple)? Answer: No where.

  61. Uriah, If the presence of God was the same in the rebuilt temple, what was the big deal about Jesus entering the temple in Luke 2?

    Also, if the presence of God was the same, why was there the development on the non scriptural synagogue system? Why the development of the rabbis – neither commanded by God.

    I will tell you why – there was no presence and the people knew it – so they struck out on their own man made system of working to God.

  62. Jean says:

    #62,
    Not to mention the Essenes.

  63. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    “Anything short of this leaves Israel and the temple etc as co redeemers with Jesus”

    Not hardly. It just shows one that God had never forgotten or forsaken the Jewish people and that one day, as He has been doing the Jewish people will know their Messiah. Not certain about all, but am certain that many when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled, a multitude will be grafted back in.

    Posing Israel and or the temple as co-redeemer cannot possible be or ever should be mistaken as being co-redeemer with Jesus. Funny, you are the only individual I have ever heard speak of this concept. Israel, meaning all of the Jewish people from the 12 tribes of Jacob, makes up the nation of the Hebrews/Jews. You know this, they are a people whom God elected to be His Chosen People and made an everlasting unconditional Covenant with them. After being led into the desert, He provide instructions on how the camp should be set up with the Ark and Priestly things set in the middle of it all. Then He gave the laws so that the people could governed themselves and to walk as a holy, priestly, and set apart nation from the world about them. God was in the midst of them, loving them, chastising them, and even causing them to be driven out of their land, but not without promising to bring them back: both Israel and Judah as one people. Has nothing to do with the gentile Christians being redeemed by them, or the temple, anymore than being able to be redeemed in and of themselves or a temple, be it whether God was dwelling or not dwelling in it. They, and yes many gave up on the scriptures and the promises and the hope and the teachings that the Messiah would come, but that never ever for a moment erase the fact that the Jewish people were taught that one day the Messiah would come and in Him all things would be put under Him and He would be their Kings, their Savior, and their Salvation.

  64. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    “Also, if the presence of God was the same, why was there the development on the non scriptural synagogue system? Why the development of the rabbis – neither commanded by God.”

    That’s a easy question to answer. Read Greek History and how they took over the Persian Empire that once ruled over the land of Israel. This was after the Jews came back, rebuilt the temple and then more returned to resettle the land. Not all came back, as you mentioned a couple of years ago on this blog, I believe.

    When the Greek was dividing up the land of Egypt and Israel, there were two brothers (I think this was the relationship) that were to governed over each territory. The guy that governed over Israel removed the real High Priest from the temple and replaced him with one of his own choosing and one who would do the bidding of their political system while promoting this acculturation into Greek thought and philosophy.. At the same time, it was a primary goal to Hellenized the Jews, as well as, any other people to foreign to the Greek culture, if you will. So, a educational system was set up with teachers (Rabbis) that would spend much time writing what the Jews know today as the midrash. I believe it was the Sadducees, but it could have been the Pharisees that was then permitted to set up their own courts, but with their own people who were Hellenized as well.

    During this time, there were many other Jewish Sects that protested this watering down and violation of what they believe to be true Judaism or what is sometimes called by some historical scholars as ancient Judaism. The Essenes was numbered among these sects.

    As for the educational system, only those who could afford to send their sons attended. And of course, those who were Hellenized were among the affluent.

  65. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Note:

    The Babylonian and Persian permitted the Jews to worshipped their God and even helped them return to Israel to build their temple.

    But the Greeks were bent on tearing them away from what they were taught down through the generations. They accomplished this by replacing the High Priest, setting a Hellenized Jew on the throne as King, set up their own education system, all in guise of using Judaism to make it look like something it was not along with so many other things that is better discover through one’s own research and study in Greek/Jewish history.

  66. “they are a people whom God elected to be His Chosen People and made an everlasting unconditional Covenant with them.”

    Which he fulfilled completely in Jesus.

  67. Jean says:

    “Which he fulfilled completely in Jesus.”

    “and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.'” Matthew 2:15 ESV

  68. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Timeline wise, the Greeks began having their influence over the Jews about 200-300 years before Jesus was born.

  69. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Jesus has yet to establish the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth. Although His Kingdom is in the hearts of all those who have been born again, the fullness of this promise has yet to be realized in a physical sense. That being, as Revelation 21 tells us.

    The earth as we know it is still very much under the influence and control of Satan, albeit nothing can happened without God’s sovereign hand in it to permit or allow Satan to do so. Which personally, I think is what really confuses people, in that we forget to separate out what is of man, what is of Satan, and what is of God.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Uriah, now it is your turn to cough up the bible verses. Show us the NT verses where Jesus said he would rule from David’s earthly throne… besides the passages where he said he wouldn’t?

    Also if you read Acts 2 Peter discusses how what you think is an actual earthly rule is taking place right now.

  71. Jean says:

    “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 ESV

    Christ is reigning now. To reign, a king must have a kingdom. “All things” means everything!

  72. Em says:

    @21 – yes, if Hebrews was written some 30 years after the crucifixion and resurrection, that would make sense

  73. Em says:

    @ 71 – since we have Luke 1:32, i assume your qualifier is “earthly” throne? i’m not motivated or qualified to really come down on one side or the other of this, but, on the other hand, while i’m guessing your have serious scholars on your side, i’m not sure that your take on it is a given, either…

  74. Em says:

    One thing is sure, however, i can say with the rebels of the 1700s that i have no King but Jesus 🙂

    and i think that Uriah is correct: “…Jesus has yet to establish the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth. Although His Kingdom is in the hearts of all those who have been born again,…” but i would go a step further and say that His Kingdom HAS come and is not only in our hearts, but wars against Satan’s power in very real ways in the here and now (MLS’s two kingdoms?)

  75. Michael says:

    The kingdom is here…but not in it’s fullness.

    Already, not yet.

    George Eldon Ladd is very good on this…

  76. Michael says:

    I’m still premill… but one has to respect the depth of exegetical arguments the amill bring to the table.

    I simply can’t defend premillinialisms problem passages as well as the amill can explain theirs.

  77. Babylon's Dread says:

    #77 is what makes Michael … one of a kind.

    He does not seek to destroy but to employ his opposites

  78. Em says:

    “I simply can’t defend premillinialisms problem passages as well as the amill can explain theirs.”
    defend for thinking on is good, but some would make taking a position on same mandatory to the Faith and i don’t see the need for that… MHO
    for what it’s worth, i will be surprised if there is no rapturing out and a return with our King to give the earth’s people a demonstration of His kingship for 1,000 years and then Satan is given a shot at taking over once again … the drama! the final justification! is that my old sin nature talking or the Holy Spirit’s affirmation? dunno – some day i will, tho
    just sayin, not trying to start a rabbit trail again 🙂

    ‘MLS’ should have been ‘MLD’ – BTW

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