Things I Think…

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83 Responses

  1. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    On your no. 10… Yes, and most people miss that fact…

  2. Cash says:

    Michael,
    I understand what you’re saying. I feel the same way. However, I think that part of the answer for us is to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. If a politician is not voting or is behaving differently, like Trump, in a manner consistent with that, they should not be supported. I mean, I just think that should be the yardstick that we measure these people by. But then you have the quandary of what if they are supporting the Constitution, but they totally disagree on almost every issue. It’s very difficult and we need discernment. We are truly aliens in this world.

  3. Michael says:

    Duane,
    I missed it for a long time…

  4. Michael says:

    Cash,
    I think it’s a good time for us to focus on getting the church healthy so we’re ready to help clean up the mess…

  5. Reuben says:

    I seem to recall Roy Zuck wrote a book I respected on hermeneutics.

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Is #9 saying that no one has understood the Bible clearly enough to tell the story well?
    50% isn’t a very good stat. I guess the holy spirit is asleep at the wheel again.

  7. Dan from Georgia says:

    A few responses…

    1. No, you are not the only one. That is mainly the reason why I abstained from voting in the last Presidential election. Yeah, I know that my non-vote was a vote for Hillary in some people’s minds, but I don’t care what those people think. It was for conscience’s sake – a truly biblical move.

    2. A hearty AMEN! They think they can change the world by one tweet…all the are doing is raising their blood pressure.

    3. Again, AMEN!

    4. Common decency seems to be a thing of the past. Not just online, but in person and behind the wheel and over the water cooler too.

    5. In regards to music I’m in my own little world now and cannot care in the least about the latest Taylor Swift or whoever is the hottest artist-du-jour.

    6. So true. I think our beagle Andy misses our beloved Sophie. Sophie is now truly an angel!

    7. Fundamentalism cannot tolerate that which it cannot control or co-opt for it’s own purposes. Imagination and (good) art is often times subversive and doesn’t give out pat answers.

    10. Never thought of that. Something to ponder.

  8. Michael says:

    # 9 is simply saying that few systematics embrace paradox. By nature they present one side…

  9. Em says:

    Michael thinks – we comment. 😇

  10. Michael says:

    Reuben,
    That would have been a while ago…he was a dispy…

  11. Michael says:

    Dan,
    Well done!
    We might not have anyone to vote for next time either…

  12. Em says:

    I would argue that it was an underlying, perhaps tacit recognition, confidence in, the Christian Faith that was the iron in the soul of this nation for a few hundred years. Yet it was men cut out of the same cloth as Donald Trump that could play the game that built what we have today (by God’s grace)…. not the politicians – Ben Franklin flew a kite and almost electrocuted himself, but the French thought he was a charming bon vivant.
    Got to go slice a watermelon, so i spare you the rest, but let me add, would i want my daughter to marry either of the aforementioned? NO NO NO… 😁

  13. Xenia says:

    . Yet it was men cut out of the same cloth as Donald Trump <<<

    If you mean our country was built by adulterers, cheaters and narcissists, then I think we have gotten the president we deserve, and this is nothing to be proud of.

  14. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    I wish you would tell us how you really feel 😊!

  15. Em says:

    Xenia, yes. Our country WAS built by adulterers, cheaters and narcissists – among others. But there was a backbone holding the nation on course, doing the sweat work. A population who were pretty sure that there was a righteous God they’d answer to in the end… and they’d tip their hat out of respect to the man with the backward collar. That is what has changed. IMV
    Look around you. Some of the most strident, obnoxious Trump haters have adultery, cheating and egotism perfected today. My fear is that God WILL now give us the nation we deserve and it wont be because some of us voted for Donald Trump, anymore than working for the Donald Trumps in our history did. Anymore than working for the man who declared, “Give me Swedes, schnapps and snuff and i’ll build a railroad to hell” did.
    To repeat myself, i believe it was the Christian faith that put the iron in the soul of America…. and blessed us… I believe the United States was in His unfolding plan…
    I don’t believe we will reform the world however. As you do now and as Michael and others here do also, our task is to learn and live the Faith.
    the native American might see it differently ( precious few folk came across the ocean to live in teepees and chew deerskin to make moccassins and fringed shirts and do rain dances to the spirit in the sky)

    Okay… I’m all pontificated out. 😊

    God keep

  16. The New Victor says:

    Where is the source that The Gospels were written last? Even without checking, one would not think that Revelation was written before them.

  17. Reuben says:

    Michael, you are right on both counts. It was about a decade ago when I read it, and he was a serious dispensationalist. Disregard. Hard to remember back that far! Haha

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    To tag along with the New Victor, I think 1, 2 & 3 John and possibly Jude were written as late as 90-95 AD.

  19. Jim says:

    Classical liberalism influenced both the old right of the ’40’s and libertarianism, while bearing little resemblance to modern progressive thought, which has infested the DNC. (no offense to democrats, its just an opinion).

    As you’ve found a home in old path spiritual thought, perhaps you’ll find old path political thought attractive.

    In regards to music, there is only old path in my world.

  20. Eric says:

    I think music is more of an expression of culture than a driver of it. Nowadays a lot of culture is more tribalised, and any music expressing those subcultures will be less visible to the wider world.

  21. Xenia says:

    I am not a liberal, Jim, I am just a good judge of character.

  22. Michael says:

    I hold to a late date for the Revelation…but who really knows?

    I do believe the Gospels were written after the Pauline corpus.

    We could play dueling scholars, but it’s pointless…

  23. Michael says:

    Eric,

    Music fueled the Jesus movement and much of the social movements of the 60’s.
    When I talk to people who were the the beginning of the Jesus Movement, they put much more emphasis on the musicians than the preachers.

  24. Michael says:

    Jim,

    I find labels difficult politically.
    I’ve been reading a lot of Bobby Kennedy books lately…and he would be thought quite conservative in some ways today.
    I cannot bear either side of the aisle today…

  25. Jim says:

    Whoa, that avatar is a mistake.

  26. Em says:

    Music is an interesting ponder… Which has the bigger influence on popular attitudes, melody or lyrics? And why do they call rap, music?
    Would be nice to see younger Believers bloom – creating odes to God with substance…….

  27. Jim says:

    Apologies for the gravatar on my earlier comment.

    The Kennedys were liberals (but not classical or classic), which shows how far the DNC has fallen.

    I find this stuff fascinating for some reason. Not my circus, not my monkeys, so I’m able to enjoy the entertainment value of the whole game. Trump makes it all the more hilarious.

  28. Michael says:

    Jim,

    I thought you were “persuading” me to become a libertarian… 🙂

  29. Jim says:

    Xenia,

    You’re a conservative, or at least a republican, if I’m not mistaken. I was addressing Michael earlier. I don’t think one needs to be a particularly gifted judge of character to see Trump’s flaws.

    I do think that the voters get the overlords they deserve.

  30. Jerod says:

    Trump is a mirror reflection of the church and the nation today… Like Trump we are Big talking until it comes down to fisticuffs. Incessantly self-serving. I think that was happened in Helsinki (I hope not).
    We are worried about the optics of EVERYTHING. We are Twitter and Facebook morons. That said, God used evil leaders, narcissistic leaders, adulterous leaders, murderous leaders and a couple who fit all those categories to carry out his will, Herod probably the most.

    Trump says a lot of dumb things, but he also carries out a lot of decent policy in contrast (not all, but most). When his policy starts mirroring his rhetoric, I’ll worry.

  31. Jerod says:

    Best gravatar of the day. Nice! Lol

  32. Jtk says:

    #10
    Straight up wow!

  33. Jim says:

    Michael,

    I tell all my friends that they’re libertarians, so sort of yes. I do think that your view of the State has changed a bit in the last couple of years. just a bit…

  34. Jim says:

    FWIW, I also insist that all of my friends believe in God. I’ll “no I don’t/yes you do” with them all day long.

    Fun times…

  35. Michael says:

    Jim,

    I don’t know what my view is…I’m just more and more committed to another kingdom.
    I’m getting old and only have so much energy… 🙂

  36. Jim says:

    You’re committed to the right Kingdom and to the only King. Everything else is background noise.

  37. Xenia says:

    I was not sure who you were addressing, Jim. Sorry about that!

    I am a conservative. I am no longer a Republican.

  38. Babylon's Dread says:

    It seems we live in days of ashes. Beauty is a memory and a hope.

  39. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I know I sound like a broken record on this, but we are no more in ashes than days past. In the 50s we grew up under Jim Crow domestically and the Cold War internationally. The 60s were indeed much more embedded in civil war than anything we face today. Race riots, cities burning (I lived and worked in LA during Watts riots – my grandfather got me a job in the schmatta business) – we had 3 major assassinations, daily anti war protest, political conventions disrupted, a sitting President declaring not to seek reelection because of this ‘civil war” – not to mention the soon coming resignation of another president.

    What we see today is all social media driven and no one gets off their butts away from the computer to be an activist. This is why each outrage cycle lasts only about a week.

  40. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I see protests and counter protests of size almost every week.
    We have had protest marches in our community that haven’t been seen since the sixties.
    Families are split and so are churches.
    I think we’re on the verge of real problems…

  41. Michael says:

    I’ve been pretty quiet online…we have no desire to turn this place into a battleground.
    Offline…that’s a different story.

  42. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    My comment was in response to Bab’s previous comment. We have always been in the ashes.
    Compare the activism, good and bad, what happened in the 50s, 60s and early 70s with just word of mouth to today’s inactivism with 40 24 hour news channels and social media.

    I am not taking sides, in fact I miss the old activist days of watching groups passion explode literally. We were younger.

  43. Michael says:

    What’s kept a lid on things to a degree is the lack of viable leadership on the center /left.
    If a Kennedy like figure emerges…look out.

  44. Duane Arnold says:

    I think the “pot is simmering”… the problem with that is that it is much easier to go to a full boil. In the 60s, we did not have the same number of guns, the ability to use social media to communicate, etc. Things can move much more quickly these days. We also lack, to a large degree, a “center”.

    When it comes to the place of the Church in all of this, we are almost as fractured as society at large… and declining numerically. I think BD could be correct.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It may be easier to go full boil now but we were at full boil in the 50s and 60s. On several fronts as I said. Assassinations, war, race riots and the bringing down of 3 sitting presidents.

  46. Em says:

    MLD thinks nothing has changed – we just have looser and quicker means of intercommunication – positive and (mostly) negative. I suspect we all hear this a lot…
    But are we looking below the surface? What i see is an erroding foundation that gave our western world its strength.
    Strangely, the churches, attempting to be relevant to the 21st century world, are learning to dance and forgetting to stand. … or so it seems to me…

  47. Xenia says:

    I think the events of the 60’s were worse than what we are seeing today. All the things MLD mentioned plus the fact that our culture changed (for the worse) forever. And I include the Jesus Movement innovations in this cultural change, although I realize much good did come from it.

    Imagine what would have happened back then if we had the social media and cable news that we have today. The country would have burned to the ground. These were the days when young men were being taken out of their families and schools against their wills and sent to VN to die or disabled in a war everyone hated. Can you imagine if that was happening today. There really would be ashes.

    I am on the outs with my entire North Carolina family, as far as I can tell. I cannot even suggest that there might be some character flaws in our current prez w/o them telling me I am a libtard who wants to kill babies.

    I think the besetting sin of *some* right-wingers is resentment. My relatives all live in big houses, have more than enough food to eat, drive cars, have big-screen TVs, etc. yet they are brimming with resentment. They feel like they are being cheated out of something. Their taxes are going to people they believe are unworthy. I don’t know what material goods they are lacking … maybe they need an even bigger TV or another car, but they feel deprived. They resent everyone and everything. This is not just my family in N. Carolina, I see it on TV all the time, this feeling that someone somewhere is getting an extra vaccination on their dime. I think they should be grateful for what they have instead of resentful for what they believe they are lacking. Jesus said with food and clothing we should be content.

    The liberals, on the other hand, seem oblivious to the Law of God. *Some* liberals. Abortion, promiscuity, homosexuality, legalized drugs, etc. If there’s no God, anything is permissible.

    So I can’t abide either group.

  48. Xenia says:

    I must add that the civil rights movement of the 60’s was one cultural change that was needed.

  49. bob1 says:

    They feel like they are being cheated out of something.

    That’s what I’ve observed, too, with lots of Trump voters (I won’t call them conservatives
    because they really aren’t.)

    This whole resentment/anger thing started, from what I’ve read, with Richard Nixon as far back as the late 50s. His whole “thing” was feeling resentment toward many of our country’s so-called Establishment, because he wasn’t accepted. The book “Nixonland” is an eye-opener and gives the context for it.

  50. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, are you suggesting you see worse on the horizon? Worse than lynchings, worse than multiple high level political assassinations, worse that 16 major cities burning down simultaneously, worse than bring down 3 sitting presidents?
    Just what is it you see on the horizon?

  51. Xenia says:

    bob1, some people are so resentful that they cannot even enjoy the things they have because they are consumed with anger over what other people might be getting.

    Your Nixon angle is interesting.

  52. bob1 says:

    I agree with folks on here that the 60s were a lot more tumultuous than today. It was a sad time because as MLD said we lost a president, a potential future president and MLK. I lived near a
    Big Ten University at the time,and once got caught in the middle of a riot in a car, complete with tear gas.

    I also agree with Xenia that the Civil Rights cause was necessary! More than necessary if there is such a thing.

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I find this similar to the global warming talk. (So there is no confusion, I do not doubt global warming) but the hysterical side comes out and says, “this is the hottest summer we have had since 1978!!!” — then I say “so, we have had these hot summers before.”
    And they then go nuts with the end of the world stuff.

    Much like I see in this conversation – we have never gone through what is coming up.

  54. Ron Larson says:

    Point 1. So I don’t get how people aren’t amazed, at how awesome, and incredible Trump’s presidency is. It is the best, it has been extraordinary and fantastic, did I mention awesome. It’s really incredible, and amazing. Did I already mention amazing? I did…sorry, but I am so amazed. And winning, so much incredible winning. So much winning, we can’t believe how much winning. It’s really incredible, and awesome and amazing.

    Lots of people are amazed at all the winning. I also hear from other how amazed at all the awesome things that are happening. So much winning.

    My apologies, if I have written in a manner that comes across as intellectually superior, the big awesome words were not meant to impress, just convey my amazment.

    Have a great, fantastic, unbelievable, amazing, awesome day.

  55. Duane Arnold says:

    Ron,

    Please get in touch with me as soon as possible. Your great… really great, country has need of you.

    Sincerely,
    Sarah Huckabee Sanders

  56. Em says:

    MLD, do i see worse on the horizon? I may have misread her, but i think Xenia put her finger on the imminent danger today…
    As i attempted to say…. It is the erosion of our foundational integrity that has continued to increase for some decades now.
    The United States is the name of the nation. We have never been the United Saints.

  57. bob1 says:

    Duane,

    ^^^^

    I almost feel sorry for her, having to speak for this President.

    But she’s there voluntarily….

  58. Em says:

    At the moment we have houseguests from Lynchburg VA… They are as liberal, anti God as one can get. Did i mention they are very “nice?” I have a hunch that they would have no problem with eliminating Christians – as humanely as possible, of course. For the good of humanity, of course.
    There is a segment of the human race that has to have a hate object, i think.

  59. Michael says:

    Ron,

    Do know and understand that there are folks here that do not see this as winning, but as a huge loss on many fronts.
    i am one of those people.
    Please interact with respect…we will not have the discourse here devolve to the level of other social media.
    Period.

  60. Ron Larson says:

    Dear Michael,

    My apologies FIRST of and foremost. I am utterly and completely kidding.
    I am very much like you, I cannot support this President, and I find no solace on the “other side” of the aisle. I feel like and alien as well in my own country, as you do, because we are aliens.

    I thought my tone was apparent that I was being sarcastic.

  61. Michael says:

    Ron,
    My profuse apology for misunderstanding.
    It sounded like stuff people put on my social media often.
    My sincere apologies.

  62. bob1 says:

    I thought it was sarcastic, but wasn’t sure.

    SARCASM MODE OFF at the end of the post works well.

    That’s one way to communicate more clearly.

  63. The New Victor says:

    MLD: you should have heard our Governor’s speech last week, where he was saying that if CA hadn’t enacted their anti-climate change law (carbon trading), that we would see not only days, but months of 135 degree temps in the future. He was utterly serious. And I was so hoping for a state-issued stillsuit…

  64. Ron Larson says:

    This is the problem if you will with social media, or texting or emailing. Things get lost in translation. And yes Bob…the Mode Off feature has been downloaded.

    On a serious note. I am asking for prayer. I read the CT post about yesterday about the myriad distractions one faces with, work, family, commitments, technology.

    I have been wrestling as of late in prayer and as I examine my life. I work, come home grill some food, do some chores (maybe), and retreat to the bedroom or my man cave to study, or listen to a sermon. I have really no hobbies except reading and I can cook. The guitars which were becoming a distraction of not an idle are sold, and the rest or for sale. I have been looking at my life, the regrets, that at nearly age 55, how much I wasted. I have more desire for his Word and prayer than ever, and I praise and thank Him for his patient faithfulness to me.

    And yet….I am frustrated. The life Christ has given, as I prayed and contemplated is the very one I want others in my work place, neighborhood and a family, everyone of them who is unregenerate to know. And yet….life and all of the busyness seems to dictate my time.

    So, what are some thngs, or ways I can practically do the work of an Evangelist. I am not to keen on the idea of preaching on a street corner, but, heck, maybe God wants me to. I am really at a loss, as to how I can more practically, show and teach people the things of God, the whole counsel of God, to tell of the story of God WITH us, to show and tell them…”Come and taste and see that the LORD is good.” That he is holy, good, patient, kind, and gave His Son to bear the penalty we deserve, and then to mentor and disciple them with the thought that Paul had of presenting full and mature.

    Any thoughts. Prayers. Book suggestions that can help me? I

  65. Michael says:

    Ron,

    I won’t give you a to do list as that’s counter productive. I will tell you that I find praying the Daily Office edifying and I only worry about evangelizing those who God brings my way. I will pray for you…

  66. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Ron, one thing I might suggest – stop reading CT. When they say “myriad distractions one faces with, work, family, commitments, technology.” I say bunk! – those things (I don’t know about technology) ARE your Christian vocation. They are the things God wants you to be doing. Distractions?

    Reminds me of the ABC article that was talking about kids being left in hot cars. Their solution? “Put something that is important to you in the back seat with the kids so you will not forget to look. Something important to you??? isn’t that the kids?

  67. London says:

    Ron,
    I would suggest if you want to be an evangelist, you get out of your man cave and get out where people are. Volunteer somewhere, go to the bar, go to the games, go to the park, go to the mall, go to the community gardens, go somewhere. That’s where the people are.

  68. Outside T. Fold says:

    I really, really really don’t understand your perspective on #exvangelical, Michael. Why must people who do not feel at home in the church be encouraged/forced/admonished to stick around? Who gains the most benefit from the position you are taking? Are you saying this for the benefit of the other people inside the church (the church needs to hear what they are saying), or #exvangelicals themselves? If the former, why burden them to perform some kind of prophetic role in the church? If the latter, on what basis are you able to determine what is best for them?

    I am trying to figure out if there is any difference between what you said and statements like these:

    If your husband is abusive, stick with him anyway; that’s The Lord’s Work™.
    If an adult sexually abuses you, stick around them. You will win them over to redemption.
    If the alcoholic/addict has filled your life with chaos and forces you to take responsibility for everything, no matter— you must stick with the alcoholic.

    I think it is reasonable to conclude that #exvangelicals know what is best for themselves.

  69. Michael says:

    OTF,

    I’m going to overlook the deeply offensive comparison you made and my instinct to automatically ban you and answer your question.

    The church is the God ordained institution through which He has chosen to manifest His kingdom.
    Christianity is a deeply communal religion and the biblical and traditional expectation is that believers will be part of a local gathering of believers.
    I also am a sacramental Christian and believe that the sacraments are a powerful means of grace wherein God actually is feeding the believer.
    Furthermore, the Scriptures tell us that when one person is missing from a body, the whole Body suffers.

    The church very much needs the wisdom and wounds of those who have left and they need to receive the blessings of the means of grace and community.

    Just for your information…I’ve helped move women out of abusive situations and had physical confrontations with abusers.
    Don’t you dare ever accuse me of such evil again.

  70. Outside T. Fold says:

    Michael,

    I’ve helped move women out of abusive situations and had physical confrontations with abusers.

    Yes. I’ve seen that. This site is deeeeeeeep with that as background. I deeply respect that work because
    (a) A lot of pervasive harm has taken place inside the church
    and
    (b) an honest assessment of those harms, and the focus of action to help the victims of harm that looks at and listens to them first, and does what is best for them. ← this is vital.

    There is a ton of integrity and love-in-action in that work.

    I am re-reading what I wrote to see if I did, in fact, accuse you. I asked for a distinction between the words you said and other statements.

    I apologize. I was not clear. I never saw those three “Stick with them” statements as being consistent with you, or this site, or the kind of discussions that take place here (except to discuss how other people hold those views.). I neglected to make that contrast plainer, i.e, “I am trying to figure out if there is any difference between what you said and statements like these—statements that, from my time here, I’d conclude you reject.”

    I implied it. I am sorry I did not make it explicit.

    (muttering to self. Those damn implications.)

    (The “stick with them” statements are ones I’ve witnessed in the wild. At least one of them is consistent with an underlying attitude I embraced when I was younger. I still remember that moment when I uttered it aloud and it was instantly challenged. Lovingly challenged. That was a good day in my life.)

    I am thinking about your response, and will weigh that and perhaps comment further. I want to post this ASAP, though.

  71. Outside T. Fold says:

    brief formatting note: meant to make clear that I was quoting you, above, at the outside of my comment.

    [BEGIN QUOTE] I’ve helped move women out of abusive situations and had physical confrontations with abusers. [END QUOTE]

  72. Michael says:

    OTF,

    I’ve never…and I mean never…counseled anyone to stay in an abusive situation either in church or out.
    Thank you for your clarification.

  73. Outside T. Fold says:

    Okay then. Whew. Glad to help clear that up.

    ::::deep cleansing inhale::::::

    :::::long, slow exhale:::::::

    :::::repeat:::::

    Michael, your adamance on this point about not staying in an abusive relationship is clear.

    And, too, thank you for telling me your view of the church and sacramentalism (my last long stop inside the fold was in the Episcopal Church, so I’ve had some experience with that.)

    Which brings me, again, to the #Exvangelical tweeps from your Item Number Two. (exvangelicals = not a monolithic group.) For those who grew up in the evangelical church and are now out of it, and who also view their experience in the church as abusive, I do not understand how your perspective (they’d be better off inside the church than on twitter) benefits them.

    Your view of the church is all-encompassing. I perceive a chasm between where you are and where they (we?*) are. The fish in the water, getting oxygen from gills, This Is What Life Is works for those inside that environment. But not for air-breathers who have lungs and get their oxygen that way.

    It’s as if the exvangelicals are some type of amphibians—used to be in one environment, now in another.

    . . . . . .

    *(tho I am sympathetic with #Evangelicals, and kinda relate, I don’t consider myself fully one, mostly because I didn’t grow up in the church. I grew up as a post-church culturally mainstream protestant who was converted in my late teens and whose first church foray was CCCM. It’s different to have an upbringing that’s not in the church even tho I spent a few decades inside the church after. I think that’s different from growing up inside it that seems to characterize many #exvangelicals.
    Here’s some ecclesiastial lulz for you. When I was preparing to get confirmed in Episcopal Ch, had a fun conversation with rector about my baptism:
    I: Yes, I was baptized by immersion at Pirates Cove in September or October]of 1975.
    Rector: But… But… but you don’t have a record of it? Isn’t there a church record of your baptism? [dude was stunned, LOL]
    I: No, Calvary Chapel wasn’t a church to keep those kinda records. 😂😂😂😂😂 )

  74. Michael says:

    OTF,
    It’s not just “my” position.
    It’s the position of Scripture and tradition.
    Would I suggest that people go back to an evangelical church?
    Not unless I know the pastor personally.
    However, that leaves a lot for other places in the kingdom to dwell in.
    I don’t think I could function in an evangelical setting…which is why I’m a happy Anglican.

  75. Jtk says:

    Again I ask (never seen a good response here):
    If we, Bible believing Christians who are not a part of a recognized denomination, do not use the word “evangelical,” WHAT word do we use?!

    “Christian” alone isn’t descriptive enough in these conversations, right?

    Re: to “exevangelical”

    I like “Bible believing Christian”, but as many here have pointed out, (nearly) EVERYONE claims they are reading and believing the Bible…

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    JTK -it is funny how your question relates to the conversation on the other thread about inerrancy.
    You want to call yourself a bible believing Christian. Is there such a person who is a non bible believing Christian?

    The same with inerrancy – why are we not satisfied just claiming the Bible as truth and leave it at that?

  77. Duane Arnold says:

    jtk

    Funny, I hear so many descriptions these days –
    “Christ Follower”
    “Creedal Christian”
    “Evangelical Catholic”
    “Catholic Evangelical”
    “Red-Letter Christian”
    “Social Justice Christian”

    I seldom hear “Disciple”…

  78. ( |o )====::: says:

    Duane,
    The reason you seldom hear “disciple” is that in 2018 there is many of us continually dialog with friends and neighbors about Jesus and what it really means to be HIS disciple, without using the word “disciple”, a word that has, sadly, been tainted by MAGA nationalists.

    My favorite hashtag is #JesusNeedsNewPR.

    “Red-Letter Christian” was my initial clarifier, now it is “Follower of Jesus of the Four Gospels”.
    My go-to is what those texts record Jesus saying, teaching, how He acts.

    Everything else our community offers to me is subject to that test.
    When anyone says, “The bible says…” I immediately ask, “But, what does Jesus say?”

    It quickly gets us to the heart of the matter.

  79. Michael says:

    JTK,

    I usually just self label as a “Christian”.
    All our labels have taken on so much cultural baggage that it’s become of game of identifying what we’re not.

    My objective in using any label is to make people feel safe conversing with me about Jesus without that baggage…it’s become a challenge…

  80. Jtk says:

    Ohhhhh
    I like that!

    “Disciple”

    Maybe I should start going by “sheep”

    It’s such an epithet these days, and it’s used by Jesus to describe us.

    John 10

  81. Duane Arnold says:

    Once upon a time, long ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I could simply say that I was an Anglican. If I say it today, the immediate response is “What kind of Anglican?” We have been reduced to shibboleths to define our tribes…

  82. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “When anyone says, “The bible says…” I immediately ask, “But, what does Jesus say?”
    It quickly gets us to the heart of the matter.”

    Jesus said to read the whole Bible.

  83. Em says:

    “You have heard it said…., but I say unto you….”
    The whole Bible is a book of heavenly common sense, not human common sense. When it comes to our conduct thru this world, IF one just uses the red letters, one may navigate life as a Believer with much the same depth as the author who declared that everything he needed to know he’d learned in kindergarden… you’ll learn to paint with newsprint and poster paint in primary colors and big fat brushes and you’ll learn please and thank you and to wait your turn…
    Jesus in His incarnation did start at the beginning, but he could teach the whole Book – as MLD noted. He wrote it. It’s a great read, btw. It is supernatural, tho. 😇

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