Things I Think

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93 Responses

  1. Ixtlan says:

    “The problem with swearing fidelity to any sects statement of doctrinal distinctives is that you are never allowed to grow beyond them.”

    That is exactly the problem with denominations, affiliations, associations, and yet it even is at the local church level. People become comfortable in what they have been taught. It matters not how well they have been exposed to their own systematic theology or that of others. If they are comfortable, they will not continue searching.. You cannot climb a taller mountain without first descending from the peak you are currently standing on.

    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness sake, for they will be filled.

  2. 4. In regards to this point, I recently had a facebook post of an article or video (I can’t remember which) that talked about about apologetics cannot save the church. The point was that as Christians we need to love the world around us. I read that particular piece and wanted to vomit. I run a Christian non-profit that works with families and need and I believe strongly in loving others. I also find that so many are interested in loving those around us, they somehow believe that talking about differences in religions is unloving.

    I’m surrounded by the LDS church (Mormons normally refer to them as LDS over the term mormon). I’ve gone toe to toe with some LDS leaders about theology. Normally, I work to define and discuss the differences. When people define what they believe, they by default reject beliefs outside the definitions.

    11. I’ve still got this book in my laptop case called “Make Your Own Application”. I occasionally, read a chapter with my staff and volunteers before we pray. I have all new staff and many new volunteers over the last month. I find these stories to be compelling and explain biblical truths and ring true to the people under me.

  3. Michael says:


    That…was really well said.

  4. Alex says:

    ”Who do they say I am”?

    Except that many say exactly what Peter said…I know many will claim, “they’re lying!!!” but that’s what many say.

  5. Michael says:


    Thank you…when I can afford to publish version 2 I’ll send you a copy first.

  6. Alex says:

    I can argue against Mormon Theology or LDS Theology with the best of them. I can argue it to the death. I’ve done that many years ago when the nice Mormon young men would come to my door. Then they’d bring an elder or bishop, etc. We’d have some knock-down-drag-out theological arguments. It was a waste of time….

  7. 1. I must admit, the mockers raise my ire the most.
    4. Knowing the truth doesn’t always mean being able to convince anyone though. I haven’t ever had any chance of interaction with Mormons, but i have had the chance to try to convince JW’s. A pile of facts and doctrines does little to change their minds, Sharing, love and prayer would have done better, but I was younger then. The disappointing thing is christians who ought to know why Mormons are wrong and don’t know or don’t want to know.
    6. THC has history of screwing up all things christian, so I don’t know what the high hopes were for. I will say that actually making the Bible into a movie, that isn’t a bunch of seemingly unconnected stories would be hard to do though. Trying to show what the Bible was pointing to, Jesus, would be a challenge to a filmmaker.
    10. If only the weather would let me right now. I want to go and hike up to the top of Harney Peak, but the weather is still not good for that here yet…sigh.

  8. Alex says:

    2. Ya, I got the letter from Bryson who claims to be speaking on behalf of Chuck Smith. Lots of effort and “non-independence” and “control” “responsibility” etc when it comes to the Distinctives and the Anti-Calvinism…

    3. CC will continue to be defined by the injustice and tolerance of abuse and corruption in its Camp…and that will be a big part of Chuck Smith’s legacy.

    5. I have a “de-conversion” testimony. I went from lying hypocrite sinner, to more honest hypocrite sinner.

    9. Good point…and who made Chuck King? Err…don’t answer that…

    10. Ya, great argument for “God Is”…there’s something innately revelatory when a person experiences and then ponders nature and the universe.

  9. Xenia says:

    9. The problem with swearing fidelity to any sects statement of doctrinal distinctives is that you are never allowed to grow beyond them.

    I have found the exact opposite to be true.

    What causes Christian growth, anyway? Is it reading about other groups and picking and choosing what is appealing?

    Prayer, fasting, scripture reading, almsgiving, the sacraments, etc. These things bring one closer to the Lord.

  10. Michael says:

    I don’t believe that anyone has ever been argued into the kingdom.
    I do think we have a real crisis of understanding in regard to what defines the historic Christian faith.

  11. Xenia says:

    My Church would also show the door to a priest who preached Calvinism.

  12. Michael says:


    Sometimes I find I’m seeking correct doctrinal propositions instead of the Lord…and I’m not alone in Protestantism in that regard.

  13. covered says:

    Michael, did you lose my #? I wish you would have let us take you to lunch yesterday. Doesn’t change our love for you 🙂

  14. Michael says:


    It was a spur of the moment day trip…one of those impulsive jaunts to change perspective.
    We were only there for a couple of hours…next time we’ll plan ahead and meet up.

  15. Alex says:

    X said, “Prayer, fasting, scripture reading, almsgiving, the sacraments, etc. These things bring one closer to the Lord.”

    Yes, the Mormon/LDS folks assert similar, it is the works that validate the Faith and that bring folks closer to the Lord.

    Now there is disagreement theologically, of course, but not in the view of the role that works plays in salvation between the LDS and the EO/RCC and similar constructs.

  16. Xenia says:

    The difference between the Eastern Orthodox “construct” (God help us) and the Mormon “construct” (good grief) is extremely vast. Since you have never been Eastern Orthodox or Mormon (just observed some practitioners of each) I can safely assert that you have no idea what you are talking about.

  17. Alex says:

    …ironically, Raul Ries’s teachings and John MacArthur’s teachings are also similar with regards to the importance of “works” as a validation of Faith and the role of works in “saving” you and bringing you closer to the Lord, etc.

    Again, big differences in some theological areas between all these seemingly divergent Groups…yet one strong common thread: Works are important.

  18. Alex says:

    X, just on the role that “works” play, I have EO friends who have EO’d me up on EO theology and I’ve studied up on the RCC, as well as LDS, as well as Johnny Mac, as well as Raul Ries etc.

    I see a common thread in the area of the role that Works plays in validating Faith and as you stated, “drawing one closer to the Lord”.

    …that’s a strong common thread, but again, I agree (and stated) that there are big divergences in other areas.

  19. Alex says:

    Gonna, run so others can have their say. Good day PP’ers, no offense intended and I don’t want to dominate. I’ll post the results of the ruling in our lawsuit later today and stay off the threads other than that (I’ve said plenty this morning).

  20. Xenia says:

    I imagine every jungle religion in the Amazon believes in some form of good works. So what? This in no way proves your absurd notion that Mormonism is … whatever it is you are trying to tell us it is or isn’t.

    Believe this with your whole heart are be saved, keeping in mind the TRADITIONAL and ORIGINAL intentions of the Fathers of the 1st and 2nd Councils who, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, believe, confessed and wrote: (And no, you may not redefine the words to fit in with any kind of Mormon heresy)

    I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
    heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
    God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

    Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
    not created, of one essence with the Father
    through Whom all things were made.

    Who for us men and for our salvation
    came down from heaven and was incarnate
    of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

    He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
    and suffered and was buried;

    And He rose on the third day,
    according to the Scriptures.

    He ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

    And He will come again with glory to judge the living
    and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

    And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
    Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
    Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
    spoke through the prophets.

    In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

    I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

    I look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the age to come.


  21. Michael says:

    Mormonism is a demonically inspired counterfeit of the Christian faith.
    There, that clears it up.

  22. Papias says:

    Thanks for the clarification Michael. 😉

    It all boils down to Jesus – get Him wrong, you’re wrong.

    No matter how many “good works” ya do. Remember what God calls good works, apart from faith?

  23. Michael says:

    I’m here to help. 🙂

  24. Bob Sweat says:

    The ramblings of ODM’s has caused me to read books written by Nouwen and Manning. I have been blessed! So thank you!

  25. Linnea says:

    Regarding sects and getting stuck and no one being argued into the faith….Anyone seen the Life of Pi? The protagonist makes a pont of sharing God and his journey to Christ with an unbelieving journalist. At the end of the movie, he tells the journalist, “I’ve told you two stories. One fanciful and one more believable. Which one do you prefer?” The journalist preferred the fanciful one with the Tiger. The protagonist declares, “and so it is with God”, meaning Christ dieting on a cross for our sins seems unbelievable, but it’s that story he prefers over man’s reason. Earlier in the film, the protagonist says that he was introduced to Christ by Vishnu, the highest of the 330 million Hindu Gods. He came to know who Christ was in his life through struggle and suffering, but gave thanks to God as he came out the other side. The movie opened up a way for me to share Christ with others, but I digress. It seems by fighting over the distnctives of denominations, we miss the greater opportunity to share the love of Christ with a hurting world. My box is pretty big right now.

  26. Linnea says:

    Sorry- I hate spell check and mobile computing! Christ didn’t diet on the cross, he died on the cross. Sheesh!

  27. Michael,
    “The voice of God speaking through creation is called “natural revelation”.

    What is it you see and hear in natural revelation? All I can tell is
    1.) that there is a God
    2.) he is big and powerful
    3.) he is mad.

    Help me.

  28. You see an angry God in a baby sleeping?

  29. MLD,
    Come now, you can’t see God’s love in creation also? Rains for crops, sunshine for growth, don’t these speak of the love of God?
    #3 makes it a bit lopsided.

  30. Michael says:

    I start with infinitely creative and the author of all beauty…

  31. Xenia says:

    “God is mad” is a peculiar concept for sure.

  32. @ #31 What gets me sometimes is realizing, how beautiful the world is even though we see a broken version of it.

  33. How beautiful will it be when He makes all things new? Now that will be something to see!

  34. It’s like you can see the glare of perfection shining through the cracks.

  35. Alex says:

    I see the beauty in the same things G reaffirms. I see the beauty in my relationship with my kids, the beauty of my wife (God nailed that one 🙂 , the beauty of the mountains and rivers and wildlife around me, the beauty of the cosmos, the beauty of the order and design and the beauty of the chaos (that itself is orderly and quite a paradox). The beauty of the mind, the beauty of the written word, the beauty of expression, the beauty of emotions, etc.

    Something innate that I have never been able to shake. God is a remarkable Creator, though I know very little of His Creation and very little of how things really are…too complex, too unknowable, though we profess we know so much.

  36. “God is mad” is a peculiar concept for sure.’

    Just looking at nature alone you don’t see a mad God? Remember, you have to leave out all your theology and sunday school classes. Have you ever lived near a volcano or in a hurricane, typhoon, tornado area?

    Today is the 1 yr anniversary of the tsunami in Japan – just looking at that, is the God of nature creative, beautiful or mad?

  37. Michael says:

    I live by a converted volcano…and it’s the most beautiful place on earth. Make your own application.

  38. But, MLD, you seem to be saying that that is all there is, all anger no love. Tsunamis and volcanos don’t happen all the time and everywhere. There is as much and probably more to show the love of god in natural revelation than God’s anger. Why should I leave out theology and SS classes? I have lived beneath the common grace of God all my life. Are we to accept bad from God and not the good also?

  39. Derek,
    “Why should I leave out theology and SS classes”

    If you add it, then you are not just using natural revelation – and that was Michael’s point.

    I see natural revelation as just one more thing that drives us to dispair that only a savior can solve.

  40. Sorry, I am a christian and I use all the revelation at my disposal. This might work if you were talking to unbelievers. I think you actually missed Michael’s point.

  41. @ 40 – Yikes. That’s sad. Of course I don’t believe you really think that way, you are just speaking your gangs theology.

    If a new born baby drives you to despair…that’s weird. God made some good stuff. Even said so himself.

  42. Snow drives me to despair lately…lol

  43. Paul A. Lytton says:

    Regarding 5. “I don’t have a “conversion testimony”, nor do I trust most of the ones I’ve heard.”,

    I seem to be very different than most of those who have been “Saved”. In my particular case, I have many conversion testimonies. The problem I have is that I do not have one particular “day” of my conversion to testify the one day I was Saved. When “was” I Saved? – When Christ arose from the grave… When “will” I be Saved? – When Christ announces my name out of the book of Life… Am I Saved now? – Don’t know.

    My first tangible learning about GOD started when I was five years old when I attended a school vacation “Bible School” that a friend of mine invited me to. That was the first time in my conscious awareness stage of life that I was told about GOD and it started with Adam and Eve. I thought, “So that is where man came from, I have always wondered about that”. “Always”, meaning all of those 5 years of being alive.

    I have never questioned the existence of GOD. GOD was just a reality that I have always – and I mean always – believed in.

    There have been many, many times in my life that I have lived in situations and did things of displaying fruitless vines. But the strong root has always produced new vines once the old ones were pruned. Each time, I became more aware that the root will stay alive as long as it is fertilize – fertilized by holding on to it and continually seeking for more knowledge about it.
    The more I learn, the more obvious it becomes that GOD is good; and I am not.

    GOD is good = my root.
    I am not = my vine.
    My name written in the book of Life = my fruit.

    P.S. Alex, I really like your “De-conversion” testimony in your #5, – “I went from lying hypocrite sinner, to more honest hypocrite sinner.”
    By the way, I see the similarity in us both knowing GOD is good and we are not. However, I fully understand my root being belief in GOD and yours being ABUSE. I pray you will be able to convert that ABUSE root to the GOD root. Just remember, it is MAN that caused you doubt, not GOD.

  44. Chile says:

    Think about it, MLD lives in California where he rocks and rolls to earthquakes, while dodging wildfires swooshed up by Santa Ana winds, while being aware they could get wiped out by a Tsunami some day, too!

    I don’t know, but that might make me think about the wrath of God, too?

  45. Chile says:

    Forgot to add my smiley 😉

  46. Wait. How could any believer not have a conversion testimony?

    Unless you were born a believer – which would kinda shoot down total depravity.

    Maybe you mean you don’t have a dramatic conversion testimony?

  47. Lutheran says:

    I don’t have a conversion testimony, either.

    Unfortunately in much of evangelland, the testimony is a requirement. Try working at a low-church, church camp or whatever without one. Good luck with that!

    I remember reading a book by Malcolm Muggeridge. After he became a Christian,, he was popular in evangelical circles. But he grew really tired and weary of all the testimony talk. The more lurid, the better was Mugg’s observation. He later joined the RCC.

  48. Sure you do.

    Was there ever a time in your life when you weren’t a believer?

  49. Lutheran says:


    Well, I guess before I was baptized as an infant.

    But in the immortal words of Three Dog Night,

    “But I really don’t remember.”


  50. So you have a conversion testimony, just not a dramatic one that happened as an adult.

  51. Michael says:

    I cannot recall a time when I did not know God.
    He was there when I was a very sick child…and He was there when I was a sick old man.
    Same God.

  52. Were you born a Christian?

  53. My conversion story is, I heard the gospel, God changed me and I said, hmmm.

  54. Lutheran says:

    I have a similar experience as Michael’s.

    I have a memory of thinking about eternity when I was very small — may have even been in the crib. I believe God was there. Just as He is now!

    Beautifully put, Michael.

  55. Chile says:

    I have a radical conversion testimony. I knew darkness and then The Bright Light blew me away. The change was so drastic that it helps me realize just how dark it had been, though I did not realize it before the change. I floated for 6 months!

    I rarely ever tell it cause my understanding of it doesn’t make sense to others. It took me 6 months till I heard a missionary explain the gospel to me and when he asked if I wanted to become a Christ follower it was then I KNEW that is what happened 6 months earlier.

  56. @ 55 – That’s a beautiful conversion testimony!

    @ 54 – MLD, that is everyone’s conversion testimony, and a wonderful one at that!

  57. Michael says:


    I don’t know.
    I never worried about it until people started demanding I give them a start time on my eternal life.
    Now, I’m back to not worrying about it.

  58. Chile says:

    But I can’t blame anyone for not trusting conversion experiences. I rarely trust them, myself. I tried all sorts of contortions to tell my conversion to others in a way that would not freak them out, but in the end I was just lying … so I quit.

  59. @ 58 – That’s cool, but you don’t have poop on those of us who God saved, after we were born. It is glorious to know that I was a sinner, and Christ died for me!

    @ 56 – Awesome Chile! Thanks for sharing that.

  60. Chile says:

    Don’t worry about it, Michael. If you needed to know a date and time then you’d know one. All we need to know is what are we choosing today.

  61. Chile says:

    Thanks, Josh. What I love is that my own kids do not have conversion stories. I just love it!

  62. Sure they do (or will) Chile. Michael does too. The depths that God saved us from shouldn’t be discounted just because we were young when it happened. That’s all the more glorious a conversion testimony!

  63. Lutheran says:


    I appreciate your graciousness for the testimonyless! Actually, in the liturgical churches, one of the purposes of confirmation is to make the Christian faith your own.

  64. Josh,
    ” MLD, that is everyone’s conversion testimony, and a wonderful one at that!”

    Not like the one’s I hear that usually involve a motorcycle and drugs. 🙂

  65. @ 65 – Like I said – I think Michael meant “dramatic” testimony.

  66. I don’t have a very exciting conversion testimony. I will admit though, a lot of people’s conversion testimonies sound like “humble brags”. Not saying that dramatic conversions don’t happen, but it seems like everyone’s “has” to be dramatic. I think this comes from people demanding to hear your “witness” and peer pressure. I would more readily believe that most aren’t dramatic.

  67. Chile says:


    What I mean is that they have had the chance to grow up with enough of the Truth that they can’t remember a time when they weren’t in relation with God in some manner. They don’t know the darkness vs. the Light like I do.

    I didn’t do drugs, ride motorcycles, or anything that make for an exciting story, I just knew darkness. When the weight of that darkness lifted, I was in shock at the dramatic difference. I could see outside of myself for once. I could not explain it. I just kept telling people God came to me, He’s done something. Before I ever spoke a word about it, people all over town and school noted the difference. I’m told the story continued on after I left there, some 30++ years ago.

    I could not believe that others could tell the difference, because there wasn’t any big outward behaviors that changed that I knew of. Sadly, I’m the only one in my family who became a Christ follower. The others’ lives are pretty much destroyed.

    I still don’t see it as my coming to Christ, more like He picked me out of the pit and set my feet upon The Rock. But it’s like surviving a tsunami and feeling guilty that I got chosen and none of them. Just goes to show that I don’t really understand salvation through my experience … I had to decide to follow Jesus again after I read and understood the gospel .. and again, when I woke up this morning.

  68. Had a fun weekend.

    A young lady came to see us on a trip designed to overcome her pain from a fatherless life. I knew her father and spoke to her about him, I knew him as good and bad, a mixture but a brilliantly gifted man. The young girl had been in an accident at work 6 weeks earlier. She was stricken with vertigo and was almost bedridden but determined to make her journey from another state to here to lay aside her ‘demons.’

    When she arrived we prayed for her vertigo and to all of our wonder it was immediately relieved…as is GONE and it has not returned. That was after weeks of unremitting hell. Then I remembered that her father had given me a pencil drawing of Jesus and his disciples. I knew as soon as I remembered that it was hers. The piece of art is quite beautiful but had been in a broken frame neglected in my garage. We recovered and restored it and gave it to her in the midst of her tears.

    The next day she set out to find her old home. To her amazement she found her dad after 10 years of NO contact. The reunion was not perfect but it was perfect enough for her and her trip of redemption was beyond anything she imagined.

    Oh yeah when I took the picture to be reframed the clerk at the store was sick. She was actually badly hungover from “a night with Jim Beam.” I asked her if her head hurt and she said “BAD.” So in the store I called on the name of Jesus laying hands on her. In less than 15 seconds she was completely relieved of all symptoms of hangover. She said she doesn’t go to church because she hates it but she likes Jesus. I told her I agreed with her and invited her to what I called “a church like ours.” One that believes Jesus helps people get well from whatever ails them.

    On Saturday morning I had a breakfast with an old pastor friend. His wife was late to the table because she had a migraine. I asked if I could pray for her. She came to the table and we prayed in the restaurant and Jesus took all her pain away. She was amazed and grateful. I told her I did not know if she was healed but I was glad she was relieved. She was able to go to the mother in laws 80th birthday party. In fairness, I later heard from her and another headache had come. Why? I don’t know. But I don’t know much about God except he is good.

    I told the stories in church. A woman who is new got up and gave a testimony, she is a former assistant to a very renowned pastor in our city. Her life had caved and her marriage failed. She was sick with all kinds of pain. She had stenosis in her spine. All of that was when she first visited a month ago. Yesterday she returned with her husband. He got up and said that Jesus had come into his life and dealt with his ‘lying and deceitful ways.’ He repented and returned to his wife and they are ready to renew their life. She reported going to the healing room and being relieved of ALL her symptoms of pain. After hearing the sermon she asked for more prayer. She suffers migraines and had one coming on. She went home without her migraine.

    There were many other reports and there were people healed of other illnesses. There were others saved, still others began to practice glossolalia without any prompting. They just came and told me. Anyway, the sermon was Isaiah 61 and Luke 4 and it kind of broke out.

  69. filbertz says:

    Mike Warnke had a dynamic conversion testimony… 😉 made him a lot of money and brought him fame and infamy. Yet, he played into the prevailing hunger for the dramatic and miraculous…

  70. I have a dramatic testimony… I got radically saved but I was not near finished. The work continues.

  71. Fly on a Wall says:

    “On the far left are the mockers who claim Christ, but also loathe anyone who thinks outside their little box”

    I guess that’s me. I do apologize for my mocking. I will stop.

    TBH: I don’t take half the stuff said on PxP seriously (not Michael, but the comments). There’s a lot of mocking, snark, huffing and puffing, but I see it all in fun. PP Vet describes it as touch football and that’s a good description. Maybe we need to be more serious about what we write and our perceived audience instead of imitating happy hour at a bar.

  72. Fly on a Wall says:

    “4. The discussions on Mormonism here reveal how unprepared we are to defend the historic Christian faith. The first litmus test of any sect is Jesus question…”Who do they say I am”? Mormonism says that He was a created being who achieved divinity…and that makes them utter heretics. Period.”

    Amen. Period.

    As for Mormon reform: if they stop reading the book of Mormon, believe in original sin, and that Christ came to die for forgiveness of original sin, deny Joe Smith as prophet, and see Jesus as God incarnate…. then we can talk reform. (sorry, am I being snarky?)

    That would only be a good start, there’s still a lot of other stuff that they’re wrong about, but that’s my big list of heretical Mormon teaching.

  73. Chile says:

    BD, thanks for the encouragement of God touching those people!

    I agree about the not near finished part … I’ve done far more repenting since being saved.

  74. Stephanie says:

    BD, thank you for that. I need to hear more of it. I was just thinking about this subject today and wondering why I don’t hear more about it. I’m always so cynical about all this because I’ve only ever seen televangelists who seem like total deceivers to me.

  75. My aunt posted a link to this on FB.

    Apparent Danger–The Pastor of America’s First Megachurch and the Texas Murder Trial of the Decade in the 1920s [Kindle Edition]

    It is free today and actually looks sort of interesting!–The-Americas-Megachurch-ebook/dp/B003L202GG/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1363051157&sr=1-1&keywords=apparent+danger

  76. Scott2 says:

    Mar 16:18b “they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    I have found God to be faithful when I have done the same. It’s always a real source of joy to see what He will do if we ask.

  77. Alex says:

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ though being the only begotten Son of God is God himself that he always existed and is not a created being as we are?

    “You’re asking a bit of a loaded question. One that even you don’t believe in.

    If you’re asking, ‘Do we believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect, literal son of God’, then yes. If you’re asking, ‘Do we believe Jesus Christ has always existed and was perfect from the beginning’, then yes.

    If you’re asking, ‘Do we believe that the physical body of Jesus Christ always existed’, then no. I’m pretty sure scripture will support he was physically born of Mary.

    What you’re asking goes in to the pre-mortal existence. I’d suggest reading, ‘Jesus the Christ’ by James E. Talmage. It goes in to great depth on exactly this issue and defines to the letter who Jesus Christ was.”

    Has anyone read the book by Talmage?

  78. To #6 – we don’t need anymore Bible movies.

    But this one you know is wrong because it is rated PG. A real Bible movie would get an R or an X.

  79. “A real Bible movie would get an R or an X.”
    True that.

  80. Well I do know that Jesus is Yahweh of the OT. I know that the pre incarnate Jesus was the one who spoke to Moses from the burning bush

  81. Linnea says:

    Dread @ 70. Thanks so much for sharing…

  82. j2theperson says:

    Re #6, are they mad about the theology? Or just the fact that it is incompetently made on every level?

  83. Ixtlan says:

    I grew up in church. Didn’t like it, didn’t like God, but more than anything hated that damn suit I had wear . And all the snickering from the neighbors. It sucked. God had to melt my heart of stone that I had as a young kid.

    Thanks for info Derek.

  84. Bryan says:

    10. The voice of God speaking through creation is called “natural revelation”. It is only when I am able to hear that voice that I can lay aside all the unnatural ways we have to live in these days. In other words, get off the computer and go outside…

    Like this a lot Michael. I try to get outside often now.

  85. Alex says:

    Bryan, good to see you! 🙂

  86. I just met a real nice Jehovah’s Witness guy, so I have decided to declare the Watchtower an orthodox Christian religion.

    Join me in welcoming the JWs to the family.

  87. Alex says:

    Well, Chuck Smith has a similar view as the JW’s do on Anthropology and the Resurrection (if words have meaning)…so come on in, it’s a big Tent! 🙂 😉

  88. Steve Wright says:

    I see natural revelation as just one more thing that drives us to despair that only a savior can solve.
    I think I am in basic agreement here with MLD. From what I see in Romans the natural revelation of creation speaks to God’s eternal power and Godhead – not much more..Sure there is some beauty, and likewise there is barren ugliness too. There is a beautiful baby sleeping, and likewise a baby dying

    I also think this is probably why cultures have offered sacrifices to appease the gods throughout history – people know they aren’t God (except maybe the Mormons 😉 ) and like MLD said, they see God as angry.

    The example I use in preaching is to imagine a beautiful, clear blue lake on a still afternoon as the sun is beginning to set and the sky is illumined with color. The birds are still singing overhead and out of the brush comes a beautiful baby deer and its mother to the lake for a drink. A Kodak moment to be sure.

    Just as the baby deer is bending down for its drink, a crocodile leaps up, snaps its neck and pulls it into the lake with a death roll, as the mother leaves her baby, fleeing back into the woods. (It works more dramatically to speak it rather than type it)

    That is as much natural revelation as the pretty setting. And that sort of carnage is what we see all around us.

  89. Alex says:

    Thanks for the buzz-kill Steve. Why don’t you just shoot Bambi while you’re at it 🙂 😆

  90. Alex says:

    Your Mormon comment was funny, well played 🙂

  91. Steve Wright says:

    One of the most amazing videos is The Battle at Kruger.

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