Things I Think

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168 Responses

  1. AA says:

    Good list to get the week started, I’ll be meditating on 7.

  2. Em says:

    From here it looks like Michael is an example of our Lord’s admonition to stand…. there is a lot to ponder in that one word – IMV …
    #7, a loud amen, but lots to think on in today’s list of things that Michael is thinking. 😊

  3. Sher Starr says:

    Michael,

    You’ll get no push back from me on this post today. You made excellent points (with which I happen to agree!) and I’m hopeful that others can see your straight forward but gentle assessmment of last weeks absolute unnecessary circus.

    Happy Monday!

  4. Kevin H says:

    Kavanaugh very well could be guilty of some if not possibly all of the things he was accused of. My inclination is to think that he is more likely than not guilty of at least some of it. However, Michael, you are correct that the evidence accompanying is significantly insufficient. There’s no way that any one of the rest of us can equitably conclude that he is definitively guilty or even that the evidence strongly forbodes his guilt. It is only when one allows their impartiality to come into play that they can state such things.

    Same for those on the other side of the aisle who are definitively calling the accuser(s) to be liars and declaring they are only out for political assassination. The bottom line is we don’t have enough evidence to come to any definitive conclusions. We will probably never know with any certainty. But the rule of law in this country is innocent until proven guilty. And as Christians, we better be rather sure that someone has done wrong before we start trumpeting their guilt. Otherwise, we are getting awfully close to crossing the line over into bearing false witness.

  5. Captain Kevin says:

    Amen and Amen, Michael!!

  6. David says:

    No. 2…
    My question is: heard by whom?

    Especially if the allegation turns out to be false?

    What if it comes out that Dr. Ford completely made up her story. Never happened. Because the entire country has heard the allegation, and half believed it (without evidence), would that half now accept Kavanaugh?

    What happens to innocent people that have been falsely accused?

  7. Em says:

    what happens to innocent people who have been falsely accused? they pay a price, speaking as one who has been there…
    God does repay the accuser… so pray for those who accuse you falsely
    the three fairly young women who went after me? within a period of just a few years one died of cancer, another died of heart failure and the queen bee of the three was divorced by her husband as he’d found a woman he liked better…. and the devout Christian woman who believed and sided with them? Her family is dealing with the sorrows of her advanced case of dementia …
    first examine your own house, but pray for your enemies to repent as eternity is a very long time
    Christine Ford could be a poor little thing with the cloud of an attempted rape hanging over her all her adult life – she could be… Brett Kavanaugh could have been a drunken, stupid young man, who wronged a nice, tender hearted and fragile young girl – he could be
    both of these two people have had professional careers that would indicate that they survived… does the public have the right to a pound of flesh for this? do we give that right to Ford? how can we because the truth is we don’t know?
    should women be protected from men who do these things? yes and, perhaps, their protection should start at a young age with an understanding of the world they’re going to be living in… don’t play on the freeway for starters… NO, i am not saying it’s the woman’s fault, but we can learn to be smarter … or so it seems to me … dunno, tho, do i? 🙂

  8. Duane Arnold says:

    I’ll break ever so slightly with Michael on this one. I believed Dr. Ford, if for no other reason than that she had no real motive to lie (at least according to my understanding). Additionally, the confirmation candidate was less than forthcoming or candid in his testimony, and had a motive for doing so. That being said, at the end of what can only be described as a flawed investigation, we are simply left with a very high profile “he said, she said…” We have seen better times than those in which we now live…

  9. Nancy Patterson Tidy says:

    Well said!

  10. dusty says:

    Hi Nancy! So good to see(((((hugs)))))

  11. dusty says:

    so good to see You!!

  12. dusty says:

    lots to think about in this post that’s for sure…..good thoughts big brother!!

  13. Michael says:

    I don’t disbelieve Dr. Ford…I simply don’t have enough evidence to make a public case out of her allegations.
    More difficult in my estimation was the refusal of her corroborating witnesses to verify what she said.
    There’s no way that i would’ve tried to present that case here…it would have ended up in the same mess it has and been detrimental to pursuing those cases where we did have the evidence.

  14. Michael says:

    Thank you, Dusty!

  15. Em says:

    Dr. Duane, you are a kind hearted man – may your number increase… the sticking point for me, having been able to sit and watch Christine’s complete testimony, was an aura of rehearsed reactions and appearance … to be expected when under the tutelage of top drawer lawyers as she was, but i couldn’t shake the sense that i wasn’t watching an honest woman, given her professional background…. Justice Kvavanaugh could only point to his career and his family as his vindicators – a perfect he said/she said
    am i right? I am so glad that it wasn’t up to me to call this one…

  16. Xenia says:

    I also believe Dr. Ford. In my own somewhat similar experience, I had no witnesses and at this late date, no way to narrow down the exact date or which exterior barracks wall was the location. I don’t even remember the brute’s name. I would have been a total fool to have gone to the goobers at the quarter deck to tell them my story. This doesn’t prove Dr. Ford was telling the truth but it sure explains to me why she doesn’t have any evidence. I *might* have told my roommate when I got back to the room but the chances that she would remember any of it is remote. I never even told any family members about it until the MeToo movement arose, and believe me, they were properly horrified.

    So I agree that Mr. K didn’t have enough damning evidence to convict him of a crime but it wasn’t a conviction we were looking for; it was a job interview. His high school yearbook, etc., shows he was a drunken playboy and I suspect he just doesn’t remember assaulting Dr. Ford. Or he cared so little about her as a person that he doesn’t remember her as a person, just another female he objectified and tried to use.

    So all you people out there who told me I had to vote for Trump to put an end to abortion: You got what you wanted. I hope it all works out for you.

    I would like to point out that abortion could end tomorrow (for the most part) if men would only have sex with their wives, and if women would only have sex with their husbands. So those of you who are excusing the lecherous antics of your political heroes have placed yourselves in a moral dilemma, if you could only see it.

  17. Xenia says:

    … but i couldn’t shake the sense that i wasn’t watching an honest woman, <<<<

    Do you think your president is an honest man?

    Just curious.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The Duke lacrosse lady had more evidence and cooberation than Dr. Ford – and she ended up being an admitted liar.

    The accuser of Brian Banks had more evidence and cooberation than Dr. Ford and ended up being an admitted liar — after Banks served 5 of 10 yrs in prison and lost an NFL career.

    I won’t even bring up the women who are believed on face value accusing their ex husbands of child molestation to punish the ex and to gain sole custody.

  19. Michael says:

    I don’t have any desire to prosecute the case again here.
    I simply wanted to explain why I could not advocate fully for Dr. Ford under the circumstances.
    To make matters more difficult, as Xenia pointed out, often there will be no witnesses to actual crime that does occur.
    Anytime we have this great of a political chasm no one will be trusted…because our leaders have proved themselves untrustworthy.

  20. Babylon's Dread says:

    I’ve almost managed to let this thing pass the news cycle without saying what I think. I will inject this one thing. Nothing and I mean NOTHING has been more painful and shocking in ministry than the willingness of people that I am trying to help to lie placing me in impossible situations as their advocate. The abundance of frequent and prolific liars has made me listen to stories and begin my remarks with these words. “I have to tell you that I am not a witness to anything you have told me, therefore I do not know exactly what to do. All I can do is counsel you based on your account of this matter.” I have lost compassion and at times become completely incredulous even cynical.

    Most people assume that lying has to have a rationale. That is not true. Liars lie because it is their drug. It is their normal. It is their happy place. This has all come as a shock and horror as I have seen them ruin their own lives and the lives of others.

    Further, if you act on a story told to you without hearing the rest of the story be ready to play the fool.

    All Humans Lie Dread

  21. Duane Arnold says:

    “Anytime we have this great of a political chasm no one will be trusted…because our leaders have proved themselves untrustworthy.”

    Yes, at this point if certain leaders told me that the sun was going to rise in the east, I’d get up early to check it out…

  22. Michael says:

    BD,

    I think all of us who have been in ministry for any length of time can attest to what you’ve said. I’m glad you said it too…

  23. Em says:

    Xenia, you ask if i believe my President is an honest man… I do not see the equivalency, but for the record, life has taught me that very, very few peopke, male or female, are 100% honest, even with ourselves…. As i have said before here, i think, the Bible rightly declares that our hearts are deceitful… among other things

  24. Michael says:

    Amen, Duane…

  25. Em says:

    For the record, i understand that many more women today have good reason to not trust the male of the specie, our human specie… The transition, of which Xenia was a participant in her military experience, was a time that is still processing – men of a certain genre don’t and may never get it and brave women out there now taking advantage of their new opportunities are going to have to get very cautious and very smart to navigate this new territory… The rest of us should be the safe place they can run to immediately, should a traumatic event occur…
    Plus – i’ve said it before, there are some aspects of the birds and the bees that we don’t seem to teach young people… Practically speaking, there will always be bad guys

  26. London says:

    Xenia,
    I believe you. And I believe Dr Ford.

  27. Rocksy says:

    Thank you Michael for always remaining calm, matter of fact, and clear-minded. I truly believe that God has blessed you a level-headedness that doesn’t seem to get so emotionally caught up that you can’t see straight. I long to always remain like that too. Listening deeply to both sides, recognizing the flaws in both, striving for perfection that can only ever be found in seeking Jesus. I appreciate your attitude and your thoughts.

    As someone else pointed out, for those have been accused wrongly and were actually innocent, it is hard to see and devastating to the people it impacts. But resting in the fact that God will handle it and will take vengeance for injustice must always be in our minds. Eternal mindset is what we must hold dearly to. Jesus was accused of much and he never avenged himself or asked “what about me”.. He faithfully set His eyes on the joy set before Him…

    My husband was accused of something and a few Christian brothers and sisters wouldn’t listen to what he had to say. Literally blocked him from their lives. We waited and prayed and no, nothing bad happened to them, but God, just this past weekend shed light on them and they listened to my husband’s side and believed him and apologized for how they handled everything. There has now been reconciliation and restoration. “Wait for the Lord. Be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord.” Psalm 27:14

  28. David says:

    “I believed Dr. Ford”
    “I also believe Dr. Ford”
    “And I believe Dr Ford”

    The implication is that you believe that Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault.

    My question remains though… how do we as Christians deal with this? How do we deal with uncorroborated allegations of assault from people outside our sphere?

    There are those who now have a concept of the kind of man Kavanaugh is. You believe him to have committed an evil act. He is (or was) a sexual predator that satisfied his urges with those that could not defend themselves.

    But, again, what if she’s either lying or mistaken?

    Do we as Christians bear false witness against someone, willingly, without evidence?
    That’s something I just can’t get past.

    There’s no evidence, so I can’t say he’s guilty or not.

    I was listening to a left wing radio station last week, and multiple hosts kept calling him a rapist.

    No evidence, but they convicted him in their hearts.

    And that’s what’s happening here. We’ve convicted Kavanaugh in our hearts, and every time we think of him, every time we speak of him, he will be that “evil thing” in our hearts. Is that not the definition of bearing false witness?

    Now, having said that, if evidence comes out to corroborate her story, he would be deserving of removal and shame, and whatever civil recompense a civil trial would prescribe.

    And, if I might add, as far as Trump being “your” president… he’s OUR president. Clinton was our president, Bush was our president, Obama was our president, Trump is our president (and I only voted for 1 of those 4).

  29. Michael says:

    David,

    I’ve made it clear that I find no satisfactory way to resolve this issue.
    There is not enough evidence to indict or absolutely affirm either person involved.
    We will have to live in that tension unless we learn other information.

  30. Michael says:

    Thank you for the kind words Rocksy…

  31. Jean says:

    David,

    Why does it annoy you that people believe Dr. Ford? It means they found her testimony more credible than Kav’s. Why not.

  32. Steve says:

    When folks say that Dr. Ford had absolutely no reason at all to lie, simply don’t understand human pyschology at all. I’m not saying Ford is a liar but I could think of many reasons why she would want to and I believe Dr. Ford herself with a degree in psychology could also give a hundred different reasons why one would like to lie. For one, I am curious why she lied about her fear of flying or at least she appeared less than genuine about her fear. Also with a degree in psychology I’m sure Ford could also give some pyscological explanations regarding people with false memories. So what ever the case with Ford, she was definitely used by the Dems in a deplorable way. Diane Feinstein please resign.

  33. David says:

    Michael,

    I think more of my question is, not to try resolve THIS issue, but how do we guard our hearts so that we don’t harden our hearts towards others based on what we’ve heard?

    What I’ve seen is, “I know there’s no evidence outside of an allegation, but I believe he committed an evil thing”. If this happens in any situation, and it happens all the time in varying degrees, how do we act with grace those someone accusing and the accused?

    So, I guess I’m asking, how do we as Christians react to this in general, in our lives?

  34. David says:

    Jean,

    “Why does it annoy you that people believe Dr. Ford?”

    My annoyance comes from seeing too many people wrongly accused. I listened to the testimonies, I found them both credible. If I believe her, and then I’m wrong, I’ve wrongly convicted him in my heart. I then believe something about him that is not true.

    I have to guard my heart so that I don’t turn people into things that they aren’t in my heart and mind.

  35. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I will any guy here – if some woman knocked at your door and told your wife that you raped her 20 yrs ago (and assuming it never happened) what is you defense other than Justice K’s “ain’t so!!!”
    So it’s not his testimony vs her’s – it’s her accusation just hung out there.
    The odd thing is that not one person she thought would cooberate her story couldn’t even say they had any knowledge that Ford even knew K.
    The fact that this is left as a toss up of equal testimonies is a joke.

    So what do you say to the woman at the door?

  36. Xenia says:

    Ok, if I believe Dr. Ford, I am guilty of besmirching the character and reputation of Mr. K.

    If I believe Mr. Kavanaugh, am I not guilty of besmirching the character and reputation of Dr. Ford?

    Why does Mr. Kavanaugh’s character and reputation matter to some of you more than Dr. Ford’s?

  37. David says:

    Jean,

    And a second answer is that those that automatically believed the allegation seemed to believe it because they didn’t want Kavanaugh confirmed. From the radio shows I listen to, Trump (being a sexual assualtist) naturally nominated someone just like him.

    I wanted to see proof. And I got none.

  38. Xenia says:

    When folks say that Dr. Ford had absolutely no reason at all to lie, simply don’t understand human pyschology at all.<<<

    Why don't you apply this to Judge K?

    . For one, I am curious why she lied about her fear of flying<<<<

    I'm afraid of flying. (Not related to my incident, I don't think.) Yet I do manage to muster up the gumption to fly on occasion. I am sure you already figured that out for yourself.

  39. Xenia says:

    I am telling you all that the fact that someone has the gall to call Dr. Ford a LIAR because she said she had a fear of flying yet does fly, I am so seeing red at the moment that I am going to go away and bake some bread for a while.

  40. David says:

    Xenia,

    That’s the struggle.

    It’s not that Kavanaugh’s character and reputation matters MORE, it’s what do we do with an unprovable allegation?

    I understand where you’re coming from and why you would believe her, so please don’t think that I don’t.

    I default to, “If I believe her (without evidence), and I’m wrong, have I sinned against him?”
    That’s the question I’ve had to ask myself.

    She made the allegation, but I don’t want to assume she’s lying, so I’ve come to the conclusion that something happened, and she has misidentified the assailants.

  41. Jean says:

    For me, Kav lost credibility when the evidence of his heavy drinking came out, along with his belligerence and evasiveness under questioning. That titled the scale against his overall truthfulness under oath.

  42. Michael says:

    David,

    I don’t have any good answers…i can only share what I’m trying to do.
    My contempt for the current administration is so deep that I want to believe every evil report about the lot of them.
    I don’t believe that I can do so and function as a pastor or believer.
    So…I try to stay grounded in the faith through the morning and evening prayers, through knowing that there are those in my own congregation and throughout the Body who support it, and by boiling everything down to basic Christian principles.
    It’s a lot of work, to be honest with you…but it’s necessary for me to stay above the fray somewhat.

  43. Em says:

    I don’t think it is wise to come down on either side of this drama that has just played out… One can say, well i believe Ford’s allegation or i believe Justice Kavanaugh, but you cannot do so on the basis of concrete evidence or personal trauma – definitely not personal wounds
    Therefore, as a Christian, i can only wait and see how Kavanaugh performs his new duties. If he continues as he has, then i say bravo, carry on!
    If Ford was wronged by the man, it is now a rather moot point. She joins the long line of the unanswered wrongs down thru time…. at the end of which a very Fair Judge will take care of those… and i can pray for them both – victim and perp – without knowing which is which
    Question comes to mind…. IF Ford’s story is correct and if she were a Christian, would it not be right for her to rejoice that the kid got his head on straight and has given a good account of himself as a husband, father and scholar?
    If the man is a fake (there is always that chance)… well, may he be exposed and that right soon

  44. David says:

    Michael,

    That’s what I was hoping to hear.

    Many times we believe what we want to be true, regardless of the truth. We don’t look at the big picture through eyes of faith, but assume the worst about people and then relish in it when it serves us personally (or politically).

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, you mean his reaction to being accused of being a rapist, then a serial rapist, then being accused at 15 of heading a traveling gang rape operation that was in operation on 10 occasions over a 2 yr period. Perhaps it was his reaction to being accused of forcing himself on MS. Ramirez who did not think it was K who stuck his Johnson in her face until her handler put her through a ‘memory recovery’ session.
    Or better, perhaps it was when it was suggested the K be banned from coaching the girl’s basketball team as there was a good chance he was a child molester.
    Not enough to make him mad? How about when his wife was accused as being an enabler and rape apologist?

    How much he drank is relative – how much is too much. His friends back his claims, some college mates who claim to be drinking women say differently – but why is their recollection of their own blackout drunkeness better than his recollection of his drinking patterns?

    I would be quite disappointed in Justice K if he did not react the way he did to all these last minute blind side claims.

  46. Xenia says:

    So… If something awful happens to you, and there are no witnesses and no known evidence, the best thing to do is keep quiet about it because if you speak up, you will be ruining someone’s reputation.

    Got it.

  47. David says:

    Xenia,

    /sigh/ No, that’s not it.

    I’m trying to figure out, as a Christian, how to deal with a (believable) accusation and a (believable) denial, and not sin myself.

    That’s why I’m asking the questions.

  48. Xenia says:

    Everything I listen to some of you people I find myself getting pushed a little bit further to the left.

  49. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    As the resident “liberal” I can assure you that it’s no better over here.
    Those who claim to know right but don’t do it.
    A pox on the whole lot of them…

  50. Xenia says:

    Look, it’s not the end of the world if Judge K doesn’t get his dream job. I never got my dream job, either.

    It really shouldn’t matter to the conservatives either, because Trump says he has a list of pro-life judges who could be nominated. It’s not like the whole project to defeat Roe vs Wade depended on Judge K’s confirmation.

    His nomination had been tainted with, even as you say, credible allegations. Here’s what I think he should have done:

    He should NOT have given that belligerent, sneering speech. His “you cannot make me quit” posture is was not a good look for a man being accused of not quitting when asked. He should have said the following, if he was a real statesman of the sort we have seen much of lately from either side. He should have said:

    “I have heard Dr. Ford’s testimony and I believe her. I am so sorry for what she endured and I think it was very courageous of her to come here today. I know she was attacked, but it wasn’t me. It just wasn’t me. However, I believe that for the sake of the country, the Court and my own family, I am withdrawing from consideration. Although I am innocent, it would be best for everyone if the President nominates someone else.”

    ^^^ But he acted like the country owed him this job. “I got into Yale!” “I worked hard!”

  51. Xenia says:

    Michael, yeah, the liberals have been saying some pretty atrocious things, too.

    Looks like I’m stuck in the middle with you.

    Could be worse. 🙂

  52. brian says:

    When I was in the evangelical industry it did not even take an accusation, just ticking off leadership would get the nonprofessional Christian the boot. I know it did me. Of course, being the degenerate I am I apologized because I did not want to hurt people or the ministry I loved and still love. Goes to show what a coward and weak vile person I am/was. Or at least that is what I was told. It hurts I will give U that and it is supposed to hurt that is why accusations are a powerful weapon.

    When I was stupid and tried to apply the Bible idea of reaching out and reconciling it was made clear, the Bible-believing organization did not believe the bible when it was inconvenient. That was made clear to me way before I was given the boot. There is one constant in the American religion as in politics, pragmatism and the ends always and I do mean always justifies the means. I just choose not to live that way, eventually, I made up with those people, it took 12 years but it was worth it.

  53. Patrick Kyle says:

    Michael,
    Thanks for this. Especially # 4 and #5. Certain factions are possessed of something akin to an unhinged Puritanism or Iconoclasm, tearing down historical statues and monuments wth all the fervor of the Taliban tearing through a museum. These things are not good, regardless of which side you are on.

  54. Michael says:

    Thank you, Patrick.

    I think the statuaries and memorials are great teaching opportunities.
    Future generations will scorn some of our actions…more than most suspect, I think…

  55. Em says:

    Good observations today as reading all the comments, some of my own thinking jelled a bit and i learned quite a bit, too
    Wish there was a good answer to “he said/ she said”
    My only take away on that today is that we should be a safe world for immediate reporting when an actual rape leaves evidence… I understand that Seattle has such a back log of rape kits unprocessed that they probably will never catch up, however…. So ? Dunno
    Am i correct in my O.T. recall that a woman raped in town had recourse if she screamed, but if she did not do so or it happened out in the field where no one could hear, too bad? That doesn’t seem right…
    Perhaps we women are vulnerable and you men need to take better care of us… 🙍

  56. The New Victor says:

    David, I heard the same thing on KGO here in San Francisco, that Trump nominated another rapist because being a rapist himself, that was the reason, no matter that even if they both were rapists, trump didn’t know about it when he nominated BK. The host let the caller’s comment stand. Even a flame thrower like mark Levin has shut down callers who’ve made less spurious comments on his show.

    My mother made accusations of elder criminal abuse against me and I don’t doubt for a minute that she really believed them. The financial abuse accusation was actually investigated by Adult Protective Services. I spoke to the social worker after the fact. Luckily, that was easily disprovable. “Kidnapping” or being held against her will? She told me neighbors this. Harder to prove.

    I picked up my mom from police headquarters in downtown San Jose where she was telling the cop about me. Only after agreeing in front of him that I would take her back the next day to her home, and the cop correctly reading the situation (and likely having more pressing crimes to deal with), did he release her to me. I took her back the next day.

    She had also gotten in my face twice calling me a liar and accusing me of stealing her truck, threatening me with a lawyer. I realized I was at risk for DV and being arrested.

    My mother suffers from PTSD, and age exacerbated that mental illness. When MI is involved, anything goes, sadly.

  57. Jean says:

    MLD,

    No, that’s not what I meant. The belligerence, evassiveness, and I will add disrespect towards certain senators, came out regarding his drinking in high school and college. He exhibited a lack of self control and poor temperament during the hearing. He should have been prepared for the questions and able to answer them with dignity. That is what I observed first hand.

  58. Jim says:

    “… our leaders have proved themselves untrustworthy.”

    Same as it ever was…

  59. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, I think your memory is failing you on the timeline. After all the erroneous accusations in a 9 period of time and faulty Dr. Ford testimony to the committee, which they realized was faulty and damaging to their scheme, they then changed it up, moved the goal posts and said let’s go after the drinking and the yearbook. No one had made previous yearbook charges.
    This is what brought out Sen. Graham’s outrage. I know that even you know that not a thing written in that yearbook addressed anything of Ford’s charges.
    Look, it was a witch hunt to get Trump – nothing new on that front.
    These last 6 yrs of the Trump administration are going to be tough on some of you.
    Time to move on – back to Russian collusion. 😉

  60. Captain Kevin says:

    “There is not enough evidence to indict or absolutely affirm either person involved.
    We will have to live in that tension unless we learn other information.”

    I think that, in general, people are uncomfortable living with tension. After all, I can get the definitive truth on pretty much everything with a quick Google search. If only life was that easy.

    The older I get, the more willing I become to answer many questions with “I don’t know.” On any given topic, it can be said that there are good, honest people on both sides of the equation.

  61. Captain Kevin says:

    Xenia:
    “I have heard Dr. Ford’s testimony and I believe her. I am so sorry for what she endured and I think it was very courageous of her to come here today. I know she was attacked, but it wasn’t me. It just wasn’t me. However, I believe that for the sake of the country, the Court and my own family, I am withdrawing from consideration. Although I am innocent, it would be best for everyone if the President nominates someone else.”

    As I was thinking about what I would say, that’s pretty much what I came up with as well.

  62. Eric says:

    Michael,
    Among the cases/allegations that have come to you over the years, approximately how many were
    – true, and certain enough to publish or act on
    – probably true, but uncertain or insufficient evidence
    – don’t know if true or false
    – probably false
    or any other way you might break it down.

  63. Jean says:

    “I think your memory is failing you on the timeline.”

    Nothing failed on my end. You can spin the hearing any way you want, but don’t spin my memory or talk about my memory at all.

  64. Steve says:

    In a true criminal court of law, Dr. Ford would be cross examined, we would hear all about her and not just her accusation. We would get to know what makes her tick from both sides. Unfortunately we will never know much more about her unless she stays in the lime light and writes her own book and makes millions. Or hopefully Kavanaugh will sue her for defamation of character. If that happens, I think we can see some possible motivations for wanting to lie if she infact did. I’m not saying she did or didn’t but to say she has no motive to lie is admitting to the fact she was never cross examined appropriately to challenge her wild claims. To give her this 11th hour national platform to make her uncorroborated accusations apparently against her own wishes was nothing more than a democratic ploy to block Kavanaugh. Disgusting.

  65. Steve says:

    Xenia,
    Regarding her fear of flying, it was used as an excuse to delay her testimony. Yet it was reported Dr. Ford was already in Delaware visiting her parents so I don’t get this excuse.. It’s probably more her skummy lawyer that never told Ford that Grassley had invited her testimony at the place of her convenience. Who recommended this politically activated lawyer to Ford anyway? Hopefully they open another investigation into this corruption and get to the bottom of this so it never happens again.

  66. j2theperson says:

    This whole thing has, once again, reminded me of how little I apparently have in common with other women. I cannot convict a man of these horrible crimes when there’s no corroborating evidence and when the named witnesses (including the accuser’s sympathetic friend) all either say they have no memory of the party or more strenuously claim it never happened.

    Additionally, the sheer amount of confusion on her part not simply about the timing and details of the supposed incident but even as regarded recent actions and events really made the accuracy of Ford’s statements suspect to me.

    It also comes off as ridiculous posturing to me when I hear people say it was just a job interview, he has no right to his dream job, and it wouldn’t have been a big deal if he withdrew. No, in this situation, withdrawing would have been akin to him admitting that the accusations were true. An innocent person should not be required to sacrifice themselves on the altar of mass hysteria in order to calm a populace that has chosen to engage in mass hysteria. When he chose not to withdraw, he very well may not have even been primarily fighting for a position on the Supreme Court; he could very well have been fighting simply for his rereputation, for his family, for the chance to continue coaching his daughter’s sports teams, for the opportunity to live the rest of his life as a member still in good standing of society and not as an absolute pariah. If you look at the situation fairly, it’s pretty obvious that getting on the Supreme Court was the least of the issues he was facing at that point.

    I hate how this whole situation has basically set things up so that you’re a bad woman if you need actual corroboration for these accusations. You’re a bad woman if you don’t ignore the flaws, contradictions, and missing pieces in an accuser’s story. You’re a bad woman if you bare in mind that people do lie and get manipulated and confused sometime illogically so. You’re a bad woman if you don’t inherently believe “survivors” but instead try to judge individual cases on their individual merits. You’re a bad woman if you don’t immediately believe that everyone who calls themselves a “survivor” is a “survivor”.

    Right now, the sisterhood of women and the MeToo movement in this country looks like a shocking joke full of people who care about their subjective feelings and experiences more than the truth or the rule of law. I don’t want to participate in that sort of madness. And it angers me immensely that supporting women and sexual assault survivors has somehow been placed in opposition to factfinding, the rule of law, and basic due process.

  67. Babylon's Dread says:

    @ j2theperson – APPLAUSE!!!!

  68. Steve says:

    J2theperson I too applause. Welcome to being a bad women. I’m bad simple because I’m a white male like Trump and Kavanaugh. Welcome to identity politics.

  69. Michael says:

    Eric,

    I would say that 90% of the stuff that has been reported to me has been true.
    5% had a measure of truth and 5% has been demonstrably false.

    Those in the most part have not been cases of sexual abuse, but physical abuse and adultery.
    I have yet to have one case where the power structure associated with that abuse cooperated with finding the truth…

  70. Xenia says:

    I don’t want to participate in that sort of madness.<<<

    Hi J2,

    While I don't agree with most of your post, I think it was very well written and you present your side of the argument extremely well. "If" Judge K. is innocent, your post is 100% spot on. If he's guilty, no. So we are at an impasse.

    However, I whole-heartedly agree with this:

    "I don’t want to participate in that sort of madness."

    This makes me queasy, too.

    -Xenia

  71. Xenia says:

    So….

    1. I hate abortion, but I think it’s more a matter of personal holiness than a matter of laws. We have abortion in our nation because we are a nation of fornicators and adulterers and even if we ourselves don’t indulge, many watch porn and the semi-porn the regular media dishes out. The entertainment industry is a vast propaganda machine for evil. In my opinion, if we support the culture of sexual immorality by our entertainment habits, we have contributed to culture of abortion. Sin isn’t compartmentalized; it slops over into other sins. You enjoy music, TV and movies that feature fornication? You are complicit.

    2. Still, I am against abortion and I would like to see Roe vs Wade overturned although I fear if that happens, there will be riots in the streets like we’ve not seen in a very long time. It’s a wicked law that needs to go. It will go to the states so states that permit it will become magnets for abortion clinics.

    3. I believed Dr. Ford. All the reasons given why she shouldn’t have been believed correspond precisely to what would have happened if I told my story against a powerful man. Most of you would not believe my story if I were in her place. Yet my story is true, memory lapses and inconsistencies and all.

    4. I found the screaming protesters, banging on the door of the Justice Dept., to be repugnant. All the “K is a rapist” chants are bothersome, too- just as odious and the “Lock her up” chants at the Trump rallies.

    5. Craziness on all sides. We really need to be able to express our opinions better, without hysteria. (Xenia- I’m talking to you, woman.)

    6. I am going to have to ban the topic of politics this Thanksgiving when all 15 family members come. I’ve got everyone from a Marxist to the son who thinks vegetables are a liberal conspiracy. Good grief.

  72. Michael says:

    What we’re doing to refugee children and families on the border is as morally reprehensible as abortion.

    The Democrats used the children as talking points, just as the right does with abortion with no intention of actually solving anything.

    Put not your faith in princes…

  73. Steve says:

    Xenia,. I respectfully disagree with you on the “lock her up” chant. There is lots of evidence that Hillary abused her office and broke some pretty serious laws at the same time. Remember that sailor that served jail time for taking a picture of the submarine? He served his time in jail for a far lessor crime than Hillary’s. Thank God we have a president that pardoned this young man before his whole life was ruined doing far less than Hillary. Hillary should go to jail.

  74. j2theperson says:

    It seems to me that many women right now are making the basic argument that “in a different time, in a different place, under different circumstances, by a different man I was sexually assaulted; therefore, Brett Kavanaugh is guilty.”

    That is not how truthseeking works.

    Her claims were investigated. The other named parties all denied being at such an event. The houses that they would have partied at at that time were all considerably farther away from the country club than Ford implied the house where it happened was. Kavanaugh had a record of his activities for the summer in question and he was gone on most weekends when such a party probably would have happened and nothing on the calendar lines up with the event Ford described. The details of her story have shifted with her telling. Was she in her late teens or early teens or mid teens? Were there 4 attackers or only 2?

    And there are credibility issues on her part most importantly her unwillingness to release her therapy notes and her unwillingness to meet with Senate staffers and answer their questions.

    People took her accusations seriously and wanted to investigate them but she wouldn’t meet and talk with them. That’s not the behavior of someone trying to get the truth out.

    The evidence such as it is and the corroboration frankly much more strongly supports him than her. All of the other sexual assaults that have taken place in the world are irrelevant to this case.

    But even pretending for a moment that her accusation is true, we as a society will not long survive if we start accepting as truth accusations that have no evidence or corroboration and convict people (if only in a social non- criminal sense) of those crimes and meeting out our idea of justice in response to those crimes.

    Our government will not long function if all it takes to lock someone out of office is somebody who seems sincere and sympathetic telling a plausible sounding sob story.

  75. Em says:

    If we all, no matter our political bent, approached issues such as this thread developed in the way that j2 has just presented …. there’d be some hope for the future of the Republic … or so it seems to me today. 😇
    There is a time for weeping (and good reasons for doing so) but we need sweet reason also … perhaps more so?

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I thought J2s commentary was very much in line with that of Senator Collins – and she was labeled an enabler – a rape apologist and a gender traitor.

    The funny part is that Justice K can do nothing to “prove” his innocence. If unfounded allegations are allowed to stand under the heading of “the survivors need to be heard” then he is left to wear the scarlet letter R (rapist) for the remainder of his days. To defend himself is to diminish the woman according to the new sisterhood and their neutered mates.

    Personally, I am tired of being called a rapist and an evil person just because I am an old white guy.

  77. j2theperson says:

    One more thought. Kavanaugh has by almost all accounts lived his life in a decent and upright manner. He’s undergone 7 FBI background checks and has had dozens and dozens of people say the things he has been accused of are not at all in keeping with his character. There were like 60 women who signed a letter attesting to his good treatment toward them and he has gone out of his way to help, train, and promote women professionally. And there is not a whiff of scandal surrounding any if these multiple relationships with with women over decades. You would actually be hard pressed to find someone who appears to have behaved in a more scandal free manner in his interactions with the opposite sex than Kavanaugh has.

    But somehow unrelated men engaging in unrelated sexual assaults is relevant to this specific situation? The bad names and bad behavior of bad men–even though they are unrelated to Kavanaugh–somehow outweighs his track record of good behavior and the witness of multiple people attesting to his good character?

    How is that mindset moral, right, fair, godly?

    Judge him based on his character, actions, track-record and whatever evidence there may be for or against him. Don’t judge him based on the character, actions, or track-record of other men. It is hard for me to see how judging him based on other men is right or righteous.

  78. Steve says:

    Personally, I am tired of being called a rapist and an evil person just because I am an old white guy.
    __________________________________________________
    We were born into the baskets of deplorables MLD. We have to become liberal Democrats if we want to have a snowballs chance of ever prooving our innocence.

  79. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I wonder what we will learn if Amy Barrett becomes the next nominee – geez, I will bet she ran a prostitution ring and has illegitimate children with Clarence Thomas… or something bad.

  80. Steve says:

    Then when Amy Barrett forcefully denies the outrageous accusations, her judicial temperament will be analyzed calling into question her fittness to serve. The Dems couldn’t possibly allow a conservative justice to replace Ginsburg. They will do anything to stop it. I can only imagine the riots and mob violence these radicals will incite.

  81. Em says:

    in defense of white guys old and young
    someone sent me this link yesterday (it’s kind of a girlie thing, i know, but…)
    a father died unexpectedly right before his daughter’s wedding and here’s what happened at her reception

    https://youtu.be/c1Ckte-hG44

    hope the link works as i see every one of the males here as fitting in this category of “white guys” no matter your skin color

  82. Michael says:

    Liberals and conservatives will always contest each other. I have never, nor do I intend on taking part in riots or mob violence.

  83. bob1 says:

    Personally, I am tired of being called a rapist and an evil person just because I am an old white guy.
    __________________________________________________
    We were born into the baskets of deplorables MLD. We have to become liberal Democrats if we want to have a snowballs chance of ever prooving our innocence.

    Oh, my! You are so screwed.

    You are indeed, such victims.

  84. Steve says:

    Obama was influenced by Saul Alinski. That might explain how we got to this point in our political discourse. Trump is fighting back hard against this mob rule mentality.

  85. Michael says:

    Trump just leads a different mob. This thread is about done, I see…

  86. Kevin H says:

    Michael,

    You gave some reasoned measured words and there has been some good conversation in the thread. Unfortunately, as has become oh so commonplace in our culture, there is a need to talk about everything and everyone from the other side in an inflammatory manner while staying conspicuously quiet about the troubles from one’s own side. This place is better than others, but still not immune.

  87. Michael says:

    KevinH…true.
    We should probably quit while we’re ahead.

  88. Kevin H says:

    I wish the Vikings would have quit when they were ahead this past Sunday and given the Eagles more time to catch up. 😉

  89. Michael says:

    LOL! We tried to give it away…

  90. bob1 says:

    Steve,

    What? No mention of Pizzagate?

    And was Obama really born in Kenya?

    What say you?

  91. Xenia says:

    While I’m pretty angry about the whole scene in Washington, I did carefully read both sides here and tried not to get angry with any of you all, my friends. I think if I could sit down w/ J2 over a cup of tea she might even persuade me to see things from her point of view a little bit. But I am angry, although not with the folks here. Just disappointed with the whole Trump-A-Doodle circus that affects how I view everything these days. Anyway, if I was rude, please forgive me.

  92. Kevin H says:

    Xenia,

    In regards to the comment I left, I would see you as part of the “good conversation” on the thread. The same for J2, even with the two of you expressing some differing opinions.

  93. Xenia says:

    J2 is a careful thinker. When she writes something, I read it. I wasn’t convinced this time but it was a worthy effort for sure.

  94. j2theperson says:

    I bet we could come to some kind of understanding, Xenia. I’ve always liked and respected you and have found you to be a thoughtful and insightful person.

    We’re definitely going through some crazy times right now. I didn’t vote for Trump because he’s pretty much a sleezeball. But it’s also really disheartening to see how hysterically people have reacted to him and his presidency.

  95. Dan from Georgia says:

    Kevin H, yeah, what has happened to the Eagles this year? I see they started to run against the Vikes in the second half and made it a decent game. Costly turnover and a questionable RTP call don’t help (RPT = Roughing The Passer) either.

  96. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Xenia and j2theperson for the reasoned discussion….sorely lacking in our society these days

  97. Kevin H says:

    Dan,

    I wish I could answer that question but there’s no obvious answer. The Eagles haven’t been terrible this year, but they just seem to be “off” in so many different ways. All the intangibles and fundamentals and little things that they were just really good with last year, they haven’t been very good with this year. Add in a significant level of injuries and that awful (not questionable 🙂 )roughing the passer call, and this team has just been mediocre so far this year. But there’s still time to turn it around!

  98. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Kevin H and Dan,
    The AZ Cardinals won their first game Sunday – all is well in AZ as the Josh Rosen era develops. Time to change your team allegiance and look west.

  99. Em says:

    In case anyone opened the link i posted earlier today and it wasn’t clear, the men filling in for the bride’s deceased father were her brothers….

    Football? Up here we’re wondering why Russel Wilson doesn’t just retire gracefully … NOW. 😦

    Now i will gracefully retire from this thread, happy that sweet reason seems to have prevailed, courtesy of j2

  100. Chris Long says:

    I agree Michael. The bigger concern for me is that people all over the country are living in a place of great anger. People are incredibly angry over this whole K thing as it’s been harped on continually in the media very strongly on both sides (want to hear that K is a rapist and should be presumed guilty? watch cnn or msnbc. Want to hear that dozens of women that knew him back then say he was great and that he should be presumed innocent? watch fox. etc. We’re all living in this incredibly polarized time and this is just the latest thing. Every other day it seems there’s a new thing that we’re supposed to all get super riled about and come out swinging. I’ve made a decision that I’m not going to play that game. The world can play the anger game if it wants to. For me, even if he’s guilty as can be or even if accusers are guilty as can be, I’ve decided I’m not going to waste my emotional energy getting super angry about it.

    With that said, as for the merits of this stuff, allegations like this should be taken seriously and not excused with “boys will be boys” talk (even though Michael’s right that societal feelings/culture has changed in the last decades etc). At the same time, when someone makes an accusation against a person but cannot tell you when and where it happened and never mentioned it to anybody for 30 years, and the people that were supposedly there issue sworn statements that it didn’t happen, then one does pause a bit. Or that when loads of women that knew him back then issue a statement that the allegations are preposterous, it gives one pause. Then there’s the timing of how the allegation came out there (and the same go for the other allegations). Those things don’t completely diminish them, but it does again give reason for pause I think. Yeah, maybe the guy drank beer and did the college party thing – if you remember anything about the early 80’s culture, you might remember that was almost an expected thing in some circles. Just cuz the guy maybe went to some parties and drank, doesn’t mean he did what is being alleged on the sexual front.

    But regardless, I’m with several others here that we should be presuming people are innocent unless shown to be proven guilty. There’s a bunch of people around assuming he is guilty and trying to force him to prove he is innocent, which is backwards. If a person (regardles of political persuasion) can be destroyed over uncorroberated allegations 36-years later of something that happened in high school or college, then we are ALL in trouble. The fact that the man is actually having to produce a calendar he kept from 1982 to try to defend himself just shows the craziness of it all. It’s not fair to ANYBODY (regardless of political leanings) to destroy one’s life and long distinguished career over uncorroborated allegations of things that person might have done when in high school.

    This whole thing just reeks of political theater to many I think. Democrats had a real motivation in making this a last-minute major issue to delay the nomination until the midterms where they are hoping to take control of the senate and then they can get someone else in there. Republicans of course pushed back against and didn’t want any long delays so perhaps that affected some of their judgment too.

    I happened to miss Ford’s senate testimony but I did manage to catch the last part of K’s. I watched him clearly answer a question about how he believed in God and then he was directly asked by the senator to look him in the eyes and tell him before God and everyone whether these allegations were true, and he did so and clearly and definitively said before God and all that they were categorically false. When I see someone do that with the passion and intentionality that he did, I have to pause before bringing out a pitchfork against the guy. While we don’t ever want to dismiss claims from people, I just think it’s dangerous territory to live in a world where people can be destroyed 36-years later with allegations that are seemingly questionable in a highly politicized situation. There’s just something wrong with the whole picture. I’m not saying he maybe didn’t do something in high school and I’m not excusing any behavior. Maybe he did and if he did then it was wrong and I personally wouldn’t want him on the court not as much because of the behavior from 36 years ago (we all have pasts, right???) but because of the lying now. But given everything I’ve seen and given our system, I’ve got to assume he’s innocent unless he’s proven guilty. To do otherwise undermines the fabric for us ALL. Just my thoughts anyway.

    As I said tho, my greater concern with all this though is just that we are ALL being played like fools – essentially being told that we should pick “our side” and get ultra angry towards those on the other side. These scriptures paint a different picture:
    “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.” (Romans 12:18)
    “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2)
    “And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.” (Colossians 3:15)

  101. Dan from Georgia says:

    Kevin H, those are the most frustrating as a fan, when you cannot put your finger on one HUGE flaw. Yes it’s early in the year, but seems like, other than the Patriots, there are some new teams vying for dominance…I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bears win the NFC North, with the Packers and Lions fighting for the basement. Then there is the Chiefs and Rams.

    MLD, I’ve always been a Larry Fitzgerald fan, from my stomping grounds of Minneapolis, MN. Still somewhat bitter from this though….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL8S4G9zFK8

    TOUCHDOWN!…….NO!……NO!……

  102. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    Change my allegiance now? Are you nuts?!?! After the Eagles just won the Super Bowl?!?! If I didn’t change allegiances after 40 years of heartbreak, I’m certainly not changing now!

    But the Cardinals do have one thing going for them. The Eagles, Vikings, and even your old team the Rams, all got better after Sam Bradford was no longer their starting quarterback.

  103. Kevin H says:

    Dan,

    I could probably name like 50 things the Eagles are doing worse this year. Most of them not terribly worse, but some degree of worse, nonetheless. Altogether a cumulative effect that is holding them down.

  104. Dan from Georgia says:

    Kevin H, true about Bradford…how he won in MN is almost a mystery.

  105. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We should not be confused. Dr Ford’s allegations were heard – clearly. They were brought to the US Senate and were broadcast live around the world.
    They may have been rejected – but they were heard.

  106. Chris Long says:

    Sorry for my late reply above which now kinda seems out of place. When I posted it earlier, the comments only showed up to Xenia’s October 8, 2018 at 5:10 pm, so I didn’t see the convo had already moved on. I forgot about that weird 1-day comment delay thing that keeps happening where comments don’t show up for like 24 hours. How does everyone else post without that delay? Is everyone else on mobile where this doesn’t happen?

  107. Jtk says:

    Consider that when GOP should fails to completely advance everything it wants, and Democratic gains will fail to advance everything they want, many will lose heart, and consider Jesus.

    Let’s be witnesses of integrity, not partisanship, and maybe even engage in witnessing

  108. Duane Arnold says:

    MLD

    “They may have been rejected – but they were heard.”
    Rejected by 11-10 in committee; rejected by 50-48 in the Senate… not a ringing endorsement but also not a wholesale rejection…

  109. Michael says:

    Chris,

    If there are links, even scripture links, in a comment it will automatically go to moderation.
    I fish them out as soon as I see them.

  110. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, do you really think the outcome of the committee or full Senate would have been different if there had been no Dr Ford accusations? All democrats except a few red state dems had vowed to vote against K…from day one of his nomination.
    The vote was not an up or down vote, ‘who do you believe.’
    I am sure that there were several on the left rolling their eyes at Dr Ford’s testimony who couldn’t say anything because they would feel the Cory Booker rage – the only one in the room actually guilty of sexual assault, btw.

    But my point was, she was given the world stage to be heard.

  111. Steve says:

    Duane,.you are making a terrible assumption that the reason for the 10 “NOs” in the judiciary and the 48 in the Senate had something to do Ford’s testimony. Nothing can be further from the truth. The Dems were committed to obstructing the confirmation of Kavanaugh the second he was nominated by Trump. Not a single vote was changed by Ford’s testimony other than maybe Susan Collins who changed her mind to all in for Kavanaugh.

  112. Chris Long says:

    Hi Michael, understood 🙂 But that’s not what I mean. When I view this site on my desktop computer, frequently ALL of the comments are up to 24 hours behind whereas they all show on the mobile version of the site. So when I first posted in this thread I only could even see comments up to 24 hours before (I wasn’t paying attention and forgot about this problem). Not that I’m a big poster, but just in general it makes it very difficult for non-mobile people to be a part of any conversation because one is always responding to comments that are a day old and the conversation could have moved on and in a fast moving conversation you can miss dozens of comments. As I type this, I just checked and on the main page, this thread is showing 110 comments while if I load the site on my phone it shows 112. Links thread shows 4 on my desktop but 5 on my phone.

  113. Em says:

    FWIW…
    My desktop IMac doesn’t experience the problem Chris describes (i’m typing on a little Amazon fire right now, but when i fire up the mac and check the PhxP while i’m there all is good (my mac is about 9 yrs old, tho)

  114. Michael says:

    Chris,
    I’ve never heard of this issue before.
    It may be that your desktop is caching the site.

  115. Chris Long says:

    Hi Michael, I mentioned it once before but you might not have understood what I was saying. The problem isn’t on my end but something that has occured when you made the site changes. Right now on BOTH of my desktop computers, on all of the browsers (Firefox, IE, Opera, Edge), even after clearing caches in the browsers, it is showing this topic as having 110 comments. My last comment to you doesn’t even show still even though I made that hours ago now. Yet on my phone, it is correctly showing 115 comments. This issue started when you made the site switchover. Your server is serving 2 different versions of the site depending on whether it’s the mobile version of the site or not. The mobile version is not synced up with the traditional (i.e. desktop) version except for once or twice a day – there’s a major prob somewhere as they should both be identical as far as content. It may that you haven’t heard much of this because a lot of people these days (and I’d guess prob most of the regulars) are seeing the mobile version by accessing on tablets/phones and/or if they are on desktop just never even realized they were missing comments etc.

  116. Chris Long says:

    Em, I don’t know why there’d be a difference for Mac but maybe – mine are not macs. If you are there now and aren’t reading this several hours after I’ve made it and could maybe fire it up right now and go to the site and and see how many comments it shows for this thread and then go to the thread and verify you can see this comment that might be helpful. Both my WIndows 7 and 10 machines with 4 different browsers at this exact time are showing the issue. Anyway here’s hoping the problem gets uncovered. 🙂 Blessings!

  117. Michael says:

    Chris,

    I have no clue.
    I played with my desktop, my laptop, my phone, T’s desktop and T’s phone…and they all showed the same stuff after refresh.
    This is an odd one…

  118. Chris Long says:

    Em, well scratch that – it looks like it maybe just updated again so you might not be able to tell now. Michael, it gets weirder. So 15 minutes ago I fired up my other Windows machine that I only sporadically use and haven’t used in weeks and went to the site on Edge browser and it showed incorrect with the 110 comments. Refreshed a few times and same result. Now 15 minutes later it shows correct with now 117 comments. However, when I open Firefox on the same machine, it still shows the old 110 comments. On my other Win7 machine, Opera browser is now showing correct also like Edge on the Win10 whereas it wasn’t 15 minutes ago, but Firefox and IE are still showing incorrect. I’m an I.T. guy with my own websites and this makes zero sense to me Michael. I thought it was just a mobile version versus traditional version sync issue but there might be more going on here. This is DEFINITELY a very weird issue.

    now it is showing correct on my Edge/Oper

  119. Michael says:

    Chris,

    My only guess would be some sort of latency issue with your ISP…

  120. Em says:

    Just came in, sorry i couldn’t help back there Chris…
    FWIW – i used to love furefox, but have had continual problems lately and i’m back to using google on the mac … Not sure what the web browser on this tablet is … does Amazon have their own?

    and i do need to get someone to clean up my mac… Slo-o-o w, so maybe i’m not a very good comparison….

  121. Chris Long says:

    Michael, the problem with that is it IS loading the site, and it’s appearing differently on different browsers at the same time all with the same ISP. When I opened my machine I hadn’t used in weeks and went to the site and it showed wrongly (but still with comments from earlier today), it showed the problem isn’t local on my computer level. That leaves the ISP level and server. My ISP though is one of the nations biggies and I haven’t seen any other issues and the issue did definitely start when you switched servers/made changes. ISP’s sometimes do cache to speed loading up (browsers do too), but they base what they are supposed to do based on the site server. It may be that the server is not correctly communicating how to handle caching (servers communicate this in the HTTP headers) and thus leading to varied behavior. I’ll see if I can maybe trap the HTTP headers given and see if I can spot anything. IDK – I’ve seen weird server caching stuff before too (many servers ALSO cache data). Last year I had a client who’s server was sending out 2 completely different versions of the same file (older version of the file that the SERVER had previously cached, newer revision of the file that was supposed to have replaced the older one) based on which version of HTTP the browser was requesting the file with – with one version it served the old file from the cache, with the new version it correctly served the new file. Sometimes there’s just really weird stuff out there and this would seem to fit. 🙂 LOL Anyway, I hope you know I wasn’t complaining or anything. I just see a tech mystery. 🙂

    Em: Amazon does have their own browser called Silk but you might also be using Chrome or another one.

  122. filbertz says:

    the court of public opinion has a much lower standard of proof than courts of law. Perhaps that is why it was played out there. I feel badly for Ford, as her story/experience was fodder for a political end game rather than given the respect and decency it deserved. Both parties, including their leaders, demonstrated the dearth of ethical heft required to lead in difficult, demanding times. My frustration, even beyond these is this: does the Church do much better?

  123. filbertz says:

    despite all the furor over the BK vs. DrF drama, number ten on your list is my takeaway…

    by the way the UFC229 fight was far more entertaining…witnessed at my house by fifteen buddies of my son–all there because they agreed to meet regularly and keep tabs on each other after one of their cohort died six weeks ago due to a tainted heroin overdose. I did the funeral for this young man and now have an on-going opportunity to work with these guys. a great bargain for $65

  124. Chris Long says:

    Michael, just an FYI that I’ve sent you an email about the caching issue and won’t post further in this thread about it to avoid cluttering it further. 🙂

  125. Em says:

    There’s old phrase, “analysis paralysis” that fits where most responsible people are right now with regard to the conflicting views of our nation’s priorities … I feel very strongly that we need to wake up to a move disguised as “liberal” that is operating like nazi brown shirts of 80 years ago … Take a deep breath and listen to what some of these leaders are calling for … IMV they are calculated to cause mob violence and loose canons among us to do bad things with bombs and guns on both ends of the spectrum … I wouldn’t go within a mile of any demonstration-so-called today

    Chris, i just noticed the word “silk” under the web browser button… I use these gadgets like i use the water faucet, i guess 😜

  126. Michael says:

    I guess it depends on which channel you watch which side you want to accuse of brown shirt violence.
    I’m no more afraid of left wing mobs than I am of the right which forms militias, buys all the weapons and ammo they can afford, and swaps insights on which body armor will hold up best in the hoped for coming civil war.
    What would make a huge difference in our country would be if we quit pointing out the worst extremes on both sides and tried to rebuild a sane middle that deals with issues and facts instead of seeing how badly they can vilify someone else.
    Frankly, I’m to the point of letting it all go and letting people do their worst to each other.
    Maybe after a good slaughter people will be attracted to reason again.

  127. Jim says:

    I see the same thing that Chris Long sees using my ISP, TOR, or a Nord server. I don’t consider it a problem, but there’s a glitch in the site.

  128. Xenia says:

    I am a member of a very conservative church and still have plenty of friends from my old CC days. I am also a university student, as well as a volunteer for a natural history museum and a meal delivery system for elderly shut-ins. All to say, I know all kinds of people, from the far right to the far left. And the only ones who collect guns are the right-wingers. I don’t know who they are planning to shoot but they sure seemed scared of somebody. They talk about “being prepared.” Prepared for what?

  129. Xenia says:

    What is worrisome is the ones with the biggest arsenal are the one who believe in all the conspiracy theories, which says to me they are not the best people to judge the reality of a situation.

    Sure, my left-wing friends also believe some whack-a-doodle things but they aren’t armed to the teeth.

    This is just what I have seem among my friends. No need to google up an article showing Hillary shooting at a rabbit or anything.

  130. Em says:

    It seems my comment was read, but missed that i said there were loose canons on “both ends of the spectrum” … while i live in the hills and do not take classes at he university, deliver meals or volunteer at the museum, my “lifestyle” over the years has brought me in contact with a pretty wide spectrum of the human race and i’m here to declare that neither the educated nor the ignorant, the rich nor the poor have any kind of a virtue advantage…. If a mind manipulated zealot anywhere on the political spectrum decides to take “heroic” action, they’ll find a gun or build a bomb or drive a car into a gathering…
    If you see right wingers’ attitude as THE big danger long term, that is your privilege. I’m not smart enough to make that call
    What i can see vey clearly and very imminent is a national dust up from which we may not emerge intact … or even close
    I am not concerned one whit with the liberal v conservative philosophies at the present
    Now i’m done with this… If i’m not clear or anyone feels goaded to defend their cause… Well that was not my intent and makes me a bit sad
    I AM done with this

  131. Xenia says:

    have any kind of a virtue advantage<<<<

    I never said anything about virtue advantages. I noted who has guns and talk about being "prepared."

    Maybe some people think stocking an arsenal and being fearful is a virtue. I don't, but some might.

  132. Em says:

    Xenia, finger pointing is not addressing the real problem. No matter where your good heart resides and feels a responsibility to defend, we are being played by a very dangerous element right now. I suspect it is neither right nor left, but i confess that i can only speculate on that aspect.
    Right, left and middle all need to pull in their horns now and see what is goin’ on …. IMNSHO. 😇

  133. Xenia says:

    I was not pointing any fingers. The topic of gun-ownership came up and I noted, based on my life experience that brings me into contact with a diversity of people, who has the guns and what they have to say about their guns. If we were talking about gay rights and abortion, I would have said it’s my left-leaning friends who talk approvingly about that. I talked about abortion earlier; I said I was against it. I also noted that all of us who regularly participate in entertainment that glorifies fornication are complicit in abortion. If you want to stop abortion, turn off the TV, abandon Hollywood, and take heed to the kind of music you listen to. It is all connected. You can’t saturate a country with degenerate entertainment and not expect degenerate results.

  134. Xenia says:

    If every person in this country who calls themselves a Christian were to abandon the entertainment industry I think they would change their tune pretty quick. But we lap it up. We may not be fornicators personally be we are vicarious fornicators.

  135. Em says:

    Xenia, you’re proving my point. 😊
    Yes, this nation is degenerating. That said, what is imminent and, perhaos, inevitable is a power grab that we need to recognize… If we’re going to clean house, we first must stop the guy who is trying to burn it down … am i wrong? an alarmist? It appears you’d better hope i am ….
    In any case, the devil always has a hitler looking for his/their chance

  136. Jean says:

    “what is imminent and, perhaps, inevitable is a power grab that we need to recognize… If we’re going to clean house, we first must stop the guy who is trying to burn it down”

    You just described Donald Trump. He has done more to grab power and grant economic power to the 1% in this country than any in recent memory. Not to mention the folks who just occupy public property under threat of violence to law enforcement.

  137. Em says:

    Jean, i wish that i could say aha, now you’re making sense to me…. I wish i could, but it just doesn’t…. If you were to declare that Trump is the catalyst that is bring this brew to a visible boil, you could make a case, perhaps. However, he is not the cause …
    Folks here are way smarter than me – i am just declaring that the focus is off … more than likely what is in the works is apolitical with regard to our two major parties and i suspect bridges the aisle between the two sets of useful fools
    Too abstruse to make my case? Probably, so it is appropriate here on the PhxP for me to step out of the ring and go back to my seat in the stands….
    God keep and come soon, Lord Jesus. 😇

  138. Jean says:

    Trump has abdicated the office of serving the entire nation as Chief Executive, and would have the nation serve him and his interests, while pandering to a base constituency with a message of fear and hate. He pits Americans against each other, rather than being a voice for unity and mutual understanding. And our international opponents? They couldn’t be happier for the disrepute Trump is bringing on our nation.

  139. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    There is a Trump because of the division created by Obama – come on Jean, let’s get this right. It is Obama’s former cabinet members who are calling for violence against anyone who refuses to believe and speak the Obama false agenda – still in play to some.

  140. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I must say though, I was getting quite a kick out of reading the two older ladies here debating sex and guns. Quite refreshing 🙂

  141. Em says:

    Well, Jean, your 5:18 tells me that you think Neville Chamberlain was Britain’s great white hope? Perhaps, as a Believer, we hope that our Lord’s kingdom can be a model that we can bring to the world in the here and now? That is clearly not sound thinking…
    I don’t much care which government official we choose to hate, but to focus on any single one of them is not smart today … IMO, of course… 😀
    now it’s talk to the hand because i really am done. 🙋 LOL

  142. Jean says:

    There’s a Trump because the present and the future frightens certain people. He promises a retrogression to the past. It’s a fantasy. There’s no going back, no matter how much Trump fouls the environment, attacks the press and democratic institutions, and tries to isolate America.

    He will hurt the country, perhaps greatly, but will not prevail against the the world.

  143. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    Perhaps it is enough to say, I agree….

  144. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, your last sentence at 6:06 sounded very Trumpian by your own definition. Your motive is create fear through your argument – not to create dialogue.

  145. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    There are so many people on here who are far more educated and conversant on the Bible and for that, I am blessed and offer my gratitude and thanks. That being said, I once told Michael that I will not engage in the purely political discussions as it simply, for me personally, even at 67 and despite my time in the Lord, it is not edifying to me and frankly, brings out my natural man who I spend my time trying to mortify and kill. Hence I have to date, rarely engaged on discussions of two types: one, those from which I learn (e.g. Michael, Dr. Arnold and Jean’s topical sharing) as I have little to offer and desire to learn (which requires of me reading, listening, and meditation); and two, those which devolve into purely political discussions.

    I say all this not to place myself above the fray and others, but to say that to the extent such political discussions carry on in this blog, it tears down my regards for the more biblically educated and conversant on this site who I so respect and look up to, even if through a blog. To me that is the greatest loss and I hope there are not others here who share my perspective. People, I implore you that you need to examine and evaluate the “gain” from engaging in seemingly exclusive political comments that seems to be at the expense of your witness and place God has placed you in my and others lives.
    All that said, I get that politics does have a context in biblical discussions even as there is clearly a political perspective to the life of Jesus, but lately I fail to see that here.

    Thanks for the ear. Blessings.

  146. Chris Long says:

    Jeff, I for one think that’s a very valid and legit point or at least something for all of us as believers to keep in mind. It’s like one of my dear friends who loves sharing Jesus and God uses all the time to reach people, but then she gets on fb and constantly is sharing all these extreme political pictures and memes. I happen to agree with some of what is shared but that’s not really the point. I told her last year that when that’s what she does all the time that because of the high-division political climate we are in, even IF she’s right on some of the political, all it mostly does is serve to put up walls where people might not be willing to hear what she has to say about Jesus. She didn’t/doesn’t understand that in her hyper-vigilence to support her political beliefs (even by unfortunately unknowingly spreading some false fake news stories and stuff during the 2016 election) that while it might affirm those that agree with her, it probably drives a deeper wedge with those that don’t. To me it’s kind of a bad witness. I want to be a bridge builder and finding how I can meet people where they are at and help them to move forward with Jesus, not putting up roadblocks to them being able to receive from me.

    The truth is that we all have our political opinions and unfortunately a lot of those opinions are formed (or “informed”) by the media. If I watch CNN or MSNBC all the time, I’m going to get fed much more of one political view over another. Likewise if I watch Fox, I’m going to get more of one view over another etc. So people’s perceptions can be very different depending on what they hear and are feeding on as it relates to all this stuff. I personally know really good, smart, rational people that love Jesus that can’t stand Trump and think he’s terrible for this country and ones that love him and think he’s heaven sent and that he’s doing a great job. I know how I feel about him, but I generally purposefully try not to share my political beliefs (including here) because if I come down on one side or another, all that’s going to serve to do is possibly cause people to be harder to receive from me if I say something of a spiritual nature. Too many people on both sides have mixed up their kingdoms and are VERY passionate about the political. This whole Kavenaugh issue being so prevalent the last month is proof in point.

    I’m sure the Apostle Paul had all sorts of political opinions, but he knew where to keep his focus, and I think that in this bitter, hyper-divisive, angry world we’re living in, it’s a good model for us to follow too. With that said, I also understand that the political and Biblical can intersect and sometimes it can seem almost unavoidable.

  147. Chris Long says:

    And just a sidenote, but a life principle I’ve kind of picked up by observation that I try (but fail sometimes) to also apply to politics is that rarely are things as simple as we’re told they are. Especially when it comes to people. When a person starts painting someone else (President or not) as either wholly evil/a scourge on our country or the greatest thing since sliced bread, I tend to get wary. I’ve found that as with most things in life, people gravitate towards the extremes (and then attacking the other extreme as they are shown to do via their favorite media/news consumption outlet), but the reality I’ve found is often somewhere in the middle.

  148. Em says:

    Well, i started the silly back and forth by opining that ALL the extreme rhetoric was in danger of motivating the crazies on both ends of the political spectrum and that launched a long back and forth defending political views … exactly the stance Believers should avoid … IMV

    Where there’s gas don’t light a match …. I apologize… I am way too old to be that naive

  149. Chris Long says:

    Em: Oh one’s never too old to be naive. LOL 😉 I think most of us have done similar (I know have). For the record, I may not post often, but I often enjoy reading what you write Em. 🙂 You are usually very balanced and often bring a very needed perspective in my view. 🙂

    Michael: Let me know if you didn’t get that email I sent about the HTTP header issue I found.

  150. Michael says:

    Chris,

    I did get it, but it’s way over my pay grade to do anything about it.
    We’re hoping to move the site soon and hopefully that will fix the problem.

  151. Chris Long says:

    Understood. It’s definitely something the server admins would have to fix by disabling the caching for the site. Or just moving the site might solve it too. 🙂

  152. j2theperson says:

    I’m not sure it’s accurate to conflate these people’s stated desire to “be prepared” with being fearful. Recognizing problems that may arise and trying to prepare for them is just common sense.

    I may not fully understand or agree with their concerns but it doesn’t seem inherently wrong for them to prepare in a way they think would be helpful and appropriate and that is legal.

    It is totally legal to own a crapload of guns. Is there any evidence that these people are using them illegally or immorality?

    A better judge of dangerous extremism would probably be the known acts of violence actively perpetrated by people. My guess is that if you look at those it probably is pretty even on with end of the political spectrum.

  153. Jim says:

    Em,

    The presence of gas isn’t your fault.

  154. Michael says:

    Every now and again, I think that we can overcome the political, cultural, and theological divisions that are raging in this country here.
    My hope is that because we are mostly mature Christians that we all would approach these discussions in a faith centered way.
    When this doesn’t happen I get depressed and begin reviewing in my mind the benefits of monasticism.
    The reality is that the divisions among us are not just political,but theological…we have different ways in which we understand how faith and politics interact (or don’t) and greatly different ways of deciding how we live out those convictions in real life.
    We have very different ideas about what it means to follow Christ in thought and action.
    If these were just differences, they could be overcome by agreeing to a higher calling and ethic.
    Sadly, these are irreconcilable differences…differences that are indeed hostile to one another.
    We don’t have any basis for common ground anymore,because we disagree on what those higher callings and ethics are.
    I won’t live to see the carnage that will result from all of this, but my godson will.
    I think I will die regretting that I didn’t do more to prepare him for what is to come…

  155. Em says:

    i hope that no one thought my use of the term ‘gas’ referred to opinions expressed here… i was thinking of the whole political (and i’m not sure ‘political’ is accurate) climate being flammable…
    i do think it is sad that, having been burned by the Rapture madness of the last century, so many Christians are afraid to think realistically – IMO – about the direction the nation is going now. People who are best termed “rabble rousers” used to be on the fringe, but with today’s technologies they are turning an orderly society – for the most part – into chaotic madness… IMNSHO 🙂

    and i do have to depart with one last thing… it is essential to get over the idea that Trump is the cause of all this…
    think i’ve mentioned this example before, but it is akin to what i think a focus on Trump permits:
    years ago i was walking my large, well mannered German Shepherd and one of the neighborhood trouble maker kids came from the opposite direction on his bike with his dog on a leash. His dog saw us and lunged to get at my dog, pulling the boy over and crashing his bike. I stopped about 40 feet from him while he gathered himself, his dog and his bike. After getting everything under control, he yelled at us, “You better get rid of that dog. It is going to kill somebody.” All the while Lily had been sitting calmly at my side waiting to continue her walk.
    My point is? This boy was focused on the catalyst that had caused HIS dog to go berzerk; not on the problem he had with an unruly dog.
    So i must repeat what i feel deep in the marrow of my bones and that is that Trump is not the cause of the chaos and really dangerous element stirring up the unstable among us

    God give us strength of mind and body and wisdom… what i don’t know is what we can do about the situation before us as our hearts and our focus are all over the place….

  156. Jean says:

    Michael,

    “I think I will die regretting that I didn’t do more to prepare him for what is to come…”

    Here’s what’s coming, and in fact is already breakining in, but it only applies to those who are fixated on temporal kingdoms:

    (1) The world is interconnected. Information travels at almost the speed of light and physical travel to almost anywhere in the world for people and goods is relatively easy and cheap.

    (2) There are billions of people living in relative poverty in developing nations.

    (3) Of those billions, a percentage of them (and that percentage exceeds our entire population) is highly motivated to better their lives through hard work and education.

    (4) Americans love cheap food and stuff. First Wal-Mart, which pretty much destroyed mainstreet, and now Amazon, which is destroying malls and shopping centers, supplies Americans with their cheap food and stuff.

    (5) Americans receive their cheap food and stuff from developing nations (or in the case of cheap food, also from large scale processors in this country).

    (6) As long as Americans choose to prioritize, either by greed, ignorance or necessity, cheap food and stuff, then the work will be done by cheap foreign labor, machines or a combination. Therefore, non-skilled and low-skilled labor will not in this country be available or, if available, not be well rewarded. What a person in America may view as no-skill or low skill labor may be viewed as a miracle job in a small town in India or China or Vietnam, or Cambodia or ….

    (7) Thus, a good future here will require a world-competitive education and strong work ethic, because of the mobility of capital and labor around the world and American’s love of cheap food and stuff. To earn a good wage here, one will have to compete with talent elsewhere.

    (8) If we withdraw from trade, Americans will have to do without the cheap food and stuff their used to. Prices for many relative necessities would double, triple or quadruple in price, while there are many things that simply aren’t made here anymore and would take years to ramp up production from scratch.

    (9) Meanwhile, no one is talking about the quality of public education, the cost of healthcare, and the public debt which is eating up the seed corn of tomorrow. Instead of investing to pioneer the future of renewable resources, we are going backwards with subsidies, tax breaks and regulations to prop up fossil fuels for very short sighted goals.

  157. Jean says:

    “it is essential to get over the idea that Trump is the cause of all this…”

    I may disagree with someone’s views on an issue or their opinion of a politician, but I grant their right to hold their view and opinion. My opinion of Trump is well known and I don’t need to repeat it again. But I reserve my liberty to hold it.

  158. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I agree with your assessment, but that’s not what has me worried.
    T has (for better or worse) been exposed to my thoughts and theology all of his life.
    He has been taught (in word and deed) that following Jesus means that we follow Him in caring for the least of these, that we stand with the poor, the oppressed, and the persecuted regardless of cultural, ethnic, or national differences.
    He’s been taught that the church is not to seek power, but to speak truth to power…that our power comes from suffering and our hope is in resurrection.
    After I’m gone he will have to worship either somewhere that has abandoned the old paths and traditions or somewhere that combines nationalism and theology…and he will know that both lead nowhere he has been taught to go.
    He is not like me…he is not a brawler who can take all the punches and remain intact.
    He could end up broken like so many already are today.
    It’s about the only thing that makes me afraid to die…

  159. Jean says:

    I love what you’re teaching him, Michael. I see that you are not scapegoating our problems to deceive him; you are not raising him with a worldview founded in fear and resentment.

    What I am trying to inculcate in my two young men is to value and cherish the relationships of one’s spouse (neither are married yet) and children, that is the household. Sitting at the kitchen table together and sharing a meal over conversation; worshiping together; rejoicing and weeping together, as circumstances require. I think there’s a lot to the family which is worth focusing on as a source of strenght, purpose and hope.

  160. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I agree…you are teaching them well…

  161. Em says:

    I figured something out when i was still a child….
    90% of us don’t really know what’s going on in the highest levels of government and business… They are a fraternity out of our realm… We’ve had something good here in the U.S., a Constitution that declared and protected the basic rights of the common man (don’t sidetrack with ethnic inequality here) and a basic respect for the rule of law.
    Trump may sound buddy buddy with Putin and Kim in public, but i’m counting on a hard nosed business man behind closed doors. Let the big players protect their interests. If we maintain an orderly, Constitutional law-respecting nation we’ll benefit along with the big boys.
    On the other hand, if you see all nationalism as evil and the cause of all wars (that is not what the Bible teaches, BTW), if globalism is your logical answer to the world’s problems then you will be all in for the United States messing in the affairs of other tribes and nations…. sounds logical, but it also lines up with evil – the way that seems right to man – and it is closer than you think… or so it seems to me today
    I’m trying to avoid end times prophesies here. 😁

  162. Michael says:

    I just deleted my response…time to go play with the cats.

  163. Jean says:

    Taking your advice, Michael.

  164. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I didn’t know you had a cat… 🙂

  165. Em says:

    I realize when i post a comment like my 11:25 that i am bucking the tide of popular views… my main concern is that there seems to be a hope that, what we should be striving for and protecting within the Church, is something that can be applied to an evil world….
    It is not my intention to denigrate the good hearts and intentions that are posted here…
    No more angst and umbrage raising comments from granny em… today… 😇 God keep

  166. Jean says:

    Galatians 5 contains a simple axiom regarding the Christian life, summed up in the 25th verse: “If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.”

    One either lives by the Spirit or according to the flesh. There is no biblical paradigm of “live by the Spirit in church, but by the flesh in the world.” That is impossible.

    One is taught by the Spirit when hearing God’s Word in church, so that outside of church one will “keep in step with the Spirit.” It is not so one will leave church to gratify the desires of the flesh.

    Back to the cats…

  167. Em says:

    One hears what one wants to hear and sees what one wants to see, Jean….
    In no place have i said that a child of God “leaves the church to gratify the desires of the flesh.”
    However, if you felt that it needed clarification, it was probably wise to do so. 1 John2:15-17

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