Things I Think…

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137 Responses

  1. josh hamrick says:

    I think you are missing the mark on the Gruden situation, but still appreciate your thoughts.

  2. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’m not really addressing the Gruden situation…just the current trend of finding old and sometimes ancient dirt to ruin the present.

  3. Kevin H says:

    Jon Gruden was a perfectly fine gentleman when he was an assistant with the Eagles. The rest of the league must have corrupted him after he left. 🙂

    Seriously though, I always thought Gruden to be a jerk, even when he was with the Eagles. But there are a ton of jerks in football. I’m sure there would be plenty of coaches who would get in serious trouble if things they said to the team or players or others in the organization were recorded and came to light. Gruden should have been given some opportunity to repent and show remorse for things he emailed years ago before he was just quickly and unceremoniously “cancelled”. But that’s not how our culture works these days.

  4. Michael says:

    Gruden lost the locker room with those comments and would not have been able to coach.

    However…if people think these comments are unique to him…they never played sports…

  5. Kevin H says:

    Gruden, not Grudem. Kind of like Brodersen, not Broderson. 🙂

  6. Michael says:

    That made me laugh…I edited my besetting sin. 🙂

    Grudem is the crappy theologian, Gruden, the coach.
    I have made a note…

  7. josh hamrick says:

    Gruden sent blatantly awful racist (and other) messages through corporate email. We’d all be fired for such. When the first came to light, making fun of the size of a black man’s lips, Gruden had the opportunity to say, wow, that’s awful, it was ten years ago, I repent…etc. Instead, he claimed the remark was not racial, but how he addressed liars. Ironic, since that was clearly a lie. After that, the dam broke, and we can see that he had equal hatred for all different groups that weren’t exactly like him. Not the guy to be rallying around against cancel culture. This dude is gross.

  8. Michael says:

    Josh,

    As I said…I’m not addressing Gruden in particular.
    I’m certainly not rallying around him…not a fan.
    Having worked in corporate America for a long time…if you read the emails I have, you would not be shocked.
    My hypotheses is that all humans have these tendencies…some just cover them better or hate people their tribes allow…

  9. josh hamrick says:

    I’m not shocked. I see racism everywhere. However, when you coach a team of 90% black, grown, millionaires, being a blatant racist will, and should, lose you your job.

    Keep in mind, I am a network admin in Corporate America for about the last 22 years. If I saw those emails come across my server, someone would lose their job.

  10. josh hamrick says:

    In fact, the Gruden situation was addressed in our corporate zoom call this morning. The message was “Everything done in the dark, will one day come into the light”. Don’t be stupid. Its not worth losing your job over.

  11. Kevin H says:

    Josh,

    I agree that Gruden should have been fired as such behavior would be a fireable offense in most businesses and is not something that was brought about just because of our current cancel culture.

    When he first partially defended his comments saying that was his manner of speaking about liars and didn’t know their was a racial connotation, I didn’t know whether to believe him or not. When the other emails came to light a couple days later showing a pattern of racist, homophobic, and misogynist comments, it made it harder to believe his previous defense. I just wish that rather than people reacting almost in a sense of contrived shock that somebody in his position would say such things, that there would be a honest recognition that many probably have and to some extent still do talk this way, especially in the world of football. Gruden was just stupid enough to put it in writing. And rather than acting as if Gruden is some kind of sudden pariah who needs to be instantly punished for his sins, at least give the man an opportunity to further address his comments now that more came to light, and possibly show some humility and sympathy in speaking of him, especially if Gruden would appear to be contrite.

    It can start with spelling his name right. 🙂

  12. josh hamrick says:

    I don’t think I’ve misspelled Wayne Gruden’s name yet.

  13. Linn says:

    I had a conversation with my students this week about Columbus Day (now Indigenous Peoples Day). Was he all good or all bad? The conclusion, after looking at the historical evidence, was some of both. What happened to indigenous people was terrible, but yet we wouldn’t have the United States (which the children of several recently arrived immigrant families pointed out). We can say we’re sorry and try to make things better for them. Cancel culture doesn’t really help-there is not redemption and no way to move forward.

  14. josh hamrick says:

    Is that like saying Hitler was good, because without him you have no modern Israel?

    (Call Godwin’s Law on myself)

  15. Xenia says:

    Here’s something interesting about Christopher Columbus. One of the reasons he was so interested in getting to the Indies was so Spain could raise enough money to launch another crusade against the Muslims in the Holy Land because he believed when the Lord came back, He’d be entering through a particular gate in Jerusalem, which Columbus felt had to be in Christian hands first for this to occur.

  16. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    There’s about 10 people who know that…great tidbit!

  17. Michael says:

    I’ve been mulling over this content today for a while…mainly because how we treat historical figures today makes me gag.

    We’re all a mixture of good and bad…Christians are being transformed through a process…that’s not finished here.

    Basically anyone who lived most of their life before 2000 is now worthy of condemnation in some way by the culture.

  18. josh hamrick says:

    Some truth to that, but Gruden and Columbus are weird examples 🙂

  19. Jean says:

    I haven’t followed the Gruden story, so I won’t way in to that one. There is, however, another national story about another well known married football coach who, among other things, was recently photographed in a public setting receiving a lap dance. What do people think about the way his matter has been handled?

    I have been working in corporate settings for more than 30 years. It has always been strongly taught that (1) one’s work emails are not your private property, and (2) inappropriate content will be severely punished. You almost have to be an idiot to send racist or sexist emails in a medium that (a) lasts forever; and (b) can be shared infinitely without your knowledge.

    The last thing an employer wants is a claim of allowing a hostile work environment.

    I thought the term “cancel” as in “canceling someone” had more to do with holding opposing values or political views. Is that not correct?

  20. LInn says:

    Josh at 12:23

    They decided that the really bad, like Hitler, probably didn’t do anyone any good. These were fourth graders, so still a bit into concrete thinking.

  21. Dread says:

    Since we all missed the memo — all of our gendered writings are banned language so when they come for the football coaches remember we’re on the list. Our old addresses and postings will grant them foundation to come for us.

    Haven’t asserted this lately so just a reminder. This is the prelude of our totalitarian future. It is real. It is guaranteed and it is swiftly becoming irreversible.

    Wherever government money touches the fringe of your garment you will be heeled.

    And corporate powers are becoming the whore that rides the beast.

    This community has slowly convinced me that most people will applaud when the totalitarians subdue the rebellious among us.

  22. josh hamrick says:

    Bread – A racist lost his job coaching young black men. Are you freakin serious?

  23. Jean says:

    Josh, I think Bread broke up around 1997. Do you mean Dread?

  24. josh hamrick says:

    Bread as in “white Bread”.

    Just joking. Of course it was a typo.

  25. Michael says:

    If Gruden had made the playoffs the last couple of years and the team was doing well, he would have been suspended for six games and fined.

    He hasn’t…so he’s a ten mill a year loser and got canned.

    This ain’t a great moral statement by the league…

  26. Michael says:

    Urban Meyer was caught getting a lap dance…which the majority of his players do every time they visit certain cities.
    Especially Atlanta…

    No one really cares…but he sucks as a pro coach, therefore much wailing and gnashing of teeth and performance morality by the team.

  27. Michael says:

    Dread,

    I think we’ll have guerrilla war before the totalitarians rise…who will be loved by half the country and despised by the other half…then we’ll rinse and re apply…

  28. Kevin H says:

    Jean,

    To give you my thoughts on Urban Meyer, sexual promiscuity is not looked upon as a sin (or not nearly as bad as a sin as some others) by much of our culture, and so the calls to “cancel” Meyer haven’t been nearly as great as they are for some others (Gruden, etc.). Also, what he did wasn’t done on work time, so there is a different element there in regards to a possible fireable offense.

    Honestly, if I were the Jaguars owner, I would fire him because he has lost the respect of the team. There is no way a football coach can be effective in winning games when his team doesn’t respect him. And in professional sports, it’s almost all about winning when it comes to job security. I would venture to guess that the only reason the Jaguars haven’t fired him yet is because they just hired him this year and gave him a huge, long contract. They’re probably not yet ready to go down that road of fighting over the money he is due if they fire him.

    The big problem for the team is not as much the dancing antics, but the fact that he stayed behind in Ohio and didn’t fly back with the team only then to have these hijinks come to light. Apparently, outside of emergency circumstances, it is pretty much unheard of for an NFL coach not to accompany his team on a flight to or from a game, and then to see what he was up to during his stay back makes him look really bad.

    On top of that, when the first video appeared, Meyer gave an apology basically saying that he was an innocent bystander when some people unknown to him pulled him into the situation and he was just guilty of poor judgment for allowing himself to be placed in a potentially compromising situation. Then a second video was released along with reporting that Meyer actually knew the woman who was dancing in his lap, pretty much revealing everything he said in his first apology to be a big lie. To my knowledge, Meyer hasn’t publicly addressed the situation since.

    I hate the whole “gotchya” culture where people seek out to publicize dirt on celebrities, for no other reason than seemingly the satisfaction and notoriety it brings them in doing so, or the joy they get in seeing people taken down. However, since this situation has come to light, Meyer has only been dishonest and has expressed no real remorse. I don’t like either Meyer or the “gotchya” people.

  29. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    Well said…

  30. Duane Arnold says:

    For myself, I don’t see the firing of this person to be a cultural crisis nor do I see it as a prelude to totalitarianism. If you do and write dumb things consistently over a period of time, there is a price to pay. We may argue about what the price should be but, on the other hand, we are not signing his pay check…

  31. Kevin H says:

    I think Grudem may like to eat Bread.

  32. Jean says:

    Thank you Kevin. You distilled into a 100 or so words what could have cost me an hour or more of reading to figure out.

  33. Dread says:

    I can smoke out Duane with less effort than a racist trope smokes out cancel culture.

    As for Gruden I don’t think he’s any more racist than Hamrick just less trained in future cost analysis.

    And totalitarianism is here it’s just not yet left the confines of its adolescence.

    Freedom in the style we’ve known it is already over. That may be good.

    I’m not sure if I want woke totalitarianism over the red version. The latter may be easier to bear.

    However what Michael was actually referencing was a world without forgiveness. That’s the religious awakening that’s sweeping our nation. A religion with no grace or mercy. That’s the space Gruden found himself.

  34. Duane Arnold says:

    Dread

    I don’t consider secular culture and its attending values as a “religion”… It is the City of Man with its attending values, or lack thereof. It does not go by (what should be) the values of the City of God.

  35. Duane Arnold says:

    Also, in keeping with a secular culture, they are currently working on a settlement package by which he will recoup some portion of his $60 million contract. There is no real cause for many tears or setting our hair on fire…

  36. josh hamrick says:

    Your belief that Gruden is not racist is based on…absolutely nothing. The only evidence available says that he is, in fact, racist. You want to give him a pass because he is white. Period.

    Am I racist? I was certainly born into racism, as I’m certain you were, even moreso, given your age and your geography. I’ve had to repent of that sin amny times over the years, and though I know it is blasphemous, those feelings of superiority still enter my mind at times. Its a hard devil to kill. I’m at my best when surrounded with people who look and think differently than me. Familiarity tends to kill the ignorant hatred.

  37. Michael says:

    I don’t know if he’s a racist or not…wouldn’t surprise me either way.

    What is obvious is that he made someone mad and they nailed him…they went through 650,000 emails looking for something else and “found” those.
    How about the people he was writing to?
    Do you suppose that they all wrote him back in horror?
    No…they agreed with him wholeheartedly because that’s the culture of sports.
    No mention of them…

    I really didn’t want this to be about Gruden…there are larger issues afoot.

  38. Michael says:

    Too many typos…extreme multi tasking…

  39. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Holman sent me a CSB bible…so far, so good…

  40. Jean says:

    Josh,

    Alluding to cultural or systematic racism is a taboo in circles nowadays and acknowledging it education is being canceled by the right as well.

  41. Sleepisgood says:

    While I agree cancel culture is abhorrent and possibly a sign of worse things to come for our culture…I feel like it should be noted that the wokestanians got the idea from somewhere. My unfortunate suspicion is that they got the idea from churches with bad church discipline practices. Jon Courson’s methods being an example of that. This may seem harsh, but having spent the last year putting extra time into rooting through the dregs of Calvary history andwatching some young ex-CCalvary members on youtube. I (and my wife as well) can’t help but wonder if woke ideology isn’t nearly a direct result of Calvary church culture itself. I saw one video where a young man essentially attributed his “transformation” to the clearly legalistic and ungracious CC pastor he grew up under. If nothing else I think cancel culture certainly has many inspirations from abusive church administration. This seems especially evident when you seem to get a mix of people believing cancel culture/wokeism is neo-marxist or else that it is a sort of secular religious cult. As for me, I hold much different and more “liberal” views from what was in essence a Christian Nationalist upbringing. I certainly hope I would never be held to task for things I’ve said in ignorance in the past. Sadly wokesters won’t care and will lynch me anyway, as was already noted.

  42. josh hamrick says:

    You got some hate in you, dude.

  43. josh hamrick says:

    Michael, the other guys in the email loop are the actual ones under federal investigation. Gruden just got snagged in relation to the ongoing investiogation intop their practices. I assume they will not get off scot-free.

  44. Em says:

    Interesting that most Christians are having difficulty separating God kingdom from the politics of the U.S . Could it be due to the fact that we have identified over the years as a “Christian nation?”
    Yes, i am aware that was an overriding label, not always adhered to by power hungry opportunists….

  45. Sleepisgood says:

    @ Josh Okay, I disagree but I’m happy to hear why you think that. I do very much agree racism is evil, if that is what you were referring to. Just because I didn’t immediately address what I agree is obvious racism, doesn’t mean I condone it. If you think I hate Calvary as a movement. That would be wrong. I’ve attended two Calvary’s personally over the years. One was..bad. The other was great and a part of me forgiving the wrongs done to me at the previous one. While I think cancel culture and woke ideology is a problem I don’t agree with Dread’s earlier sentiment either.

  46. josh hamrick says:

    “No…they agreed with him wholeheartedly because that’s the culture of sports”
    That’s literally the Trump defense.

  47. josh hamrick says:

    You hate woke people. Whatever that means. Someone has taught you to fear these others, that they are coming to get you! And you hate them, even though you have no idea who they are.

  48. Em says:

    “A religion with no grace or mercy? ”
    Doesnt that sound like Islam?
    I did hear an ex Muslim claim the antichrist would come from Islam…..
    Dunno…… ?

  49. Michael says:

    “That’s literally the Trump defense.”

    I’m going to say this one more time before I get angry.
    I’m in any way defending Gruden.

    These emails were part of an investigation into the Washington Redskins…which were run by notoriously venal people.

    You cannot tell me that Bruce Allen wasn’t in wholesale agreement with Gruden…as well as the owner and others.

    It seems awfully odd that one side of a bad conversation is all we know about.

    I’m assuming that you never played football…because being in and around the sport all my life…this is the culture.

  50. Sleepisgood says:

    @Josh So, because I mentioned someones going trans with “transformation” I hate woke people? That is utterly ridiculous. My brother in-law is a bisexual former Christian. He would be more than happy to tell you that I bear him no hatred or ill-will, in fact we get along well. I do have a problem with the driving ideology behind wokeism and cancel culture as I think it’s aims are fundamentally destructive to our society. But, disagreeing with someone’s beliefs is not the same as hating them. The fact that you at least appear on the surface to think disagreement equates to hate is concerning to me. It’s very interesting how even Christian’s are now starting to think they get to decide someone’s internal “sin state” by the omission or admission of certain words or not “correctly.” Phrasing something. I have great compassion towards the trans community as I think much of their struggle has less to do with a flaw in them and a more breakdown in our society as a whole. Particularly the family. Maybe be more careful ascribing hateful attitudes towards people you hardly know.

  51. Michael says:

    Cancel culture started with the Moral Majority…now, it’s just part of the sniping culture we all live in…

  52. josh hamrick says:

    “I’m assuming that you never played football…because being in and around the sport all my life…this is the culture.”

    When were you in the sport of football?!? I played growing up and coach a team at the Y right now. I don’t see a lot of blatant racism in it. Played basketball my whole life and still coach it too. We are racist in that either.

  53. josh hamrick says:

    sleep – Did I say you hated trans or bi people? Nope.

  54. Michael says:

    I haven’t coached in a few years.
    Racism wasn’t an issue…but comments like that were.
    More meant for personal insult than hatred of a race.
    The predominant curse was to question another’s masculinity.
    Misogyny was rife.

  55. josh hamrick says:

    We aren’t racist in basketball. I’m typo-ing alot tonight too 🙂

  56. josh hamrick says:

    Mysogyny, homophopbia – absolutely.
    The racism I didn’t see as much.

  57. Michael says:

    What if…the “racism” was meant as a personal insult to someone greatly disliked instead of a true despite of the race?
    I have a hard time believing he’d survive this long on the media and pro football if he’s truly a racist.
    It’s possible.

  58. Sleepisgood says:

    So, your goal was to try and lure me into a trap then by forcing me to assume what you meant, since you didn’t actually explicitly state what I said that set you off. I was left to guess. This is exactly what I meant in my latter post by pointing out how everyone, even you, is on the lookout for the proper “phrasing” and “words of ascent.” I assumed you were use the tactic of unclear communication to try and give me a “gotcha” moment. Seems I was right. I love you as my brother in Christ, but you’ve got the heart of the witch hunter in you and I think you need to look at your motives in using the type of tactics you just used on me. They are disingenuous and Un-Christlike. But, I’m starting to get a clear picture of a few of you who like to frequent here, that’s for sure. Thanks for the interesting content, Michael, Duane and Kevin. But, I’m out. Clearly there are people here invested in taking the worst possible interpretation of people’s speech. I’d name them but I think some of you already know who they are. God Bless you all and I pray that eventually we as Christian’s can let go of the mini-tyrant we’ve been feeding in our own hearts for so many years in the American church. It’s not comfortable to imagine we might be somewhat to blame for what we see in our culture, but Josh, I think your response is at least a little proof that we are in some ways complicit.

  59. josh hamrick says:

    Think about that – if I hate you, so the first thing I do is make a comment about your race? Dude, that’s the definition of racism. There are tons of people in the media and all walks of life who are racists.

  60. josh hamrick says:

    Sleep. I told you explicitly who you hated and you changed the subject to trans and bi.
    I said you hate woke people. You think they are out to get you. You are terrified of them. They are your boogeyman.

  61. Michael says:

    When you dislike someone intensely you find any feature to mock.

    The irony of this conversation is that I first heard of the incident from a black friend…more like family member.
    His exact words…”Now, you know that’s funny’…

    He didn’t consider it prima facia proof of racism.

    The other irony is that I almost left the reference to Gruden out, but thought it might help illuminate.

    It didn’t.

    Always trust your gut…

  62. Michael says:

    I think racist has become so overused it is lacking the sting it truly should carry.

    My grampa was a real racist.
    Hated non whites…especially Asians and blacks.
    I can spot them pretty easily.

  63. Em says:

    I want to go on record here….
    I am not “woke.” Never been a racist.
    I agree with the late Martin Luther King, judge by character, not skin color – all t he human race has good AND bad actors

  64. josh hamrick says:

    As long as we keep racists as “those other REAL racist” people, we’ll never make any strides. I appreciate the story from your black friend, uh, ok? You do know that my family is multi-racial, right? I haven’t hidden that for 14 years.

    Listen demeaning someone on account of their race IS racism. That’s exactly what it is. Is Gruden a Klan member? Probably not. Is he racist? Probably so. I get mad at black people all the time and never say a word about their race. What in the world?

  65. josh hamrick says:

    Woke is just another group for us to hate.

  66. Sleepisgood says:

    @ Josh As my last parting comment, your right Josh. You did explicitly state woke people. But, I don’t think it ultimately changes my fundamental argument that you wanted to make into something that fit your preconception of me based on what I said. We have all become far too much in a hurry to condemn each other for no good reason at all and usually based on how we perceive someone’s bias or “secret sin” to be. I know you won’t want to hear it again, but you were trying to do that to me. It’s terrifying, honestly. Read some Aleksander Solzhynitzen if you haven’t already. Might help you make more sense of what I’m saying. I wish you all well.

  67. josh hamrick says:

    You seem terrified of lots of thing.

  68. BrideofChrist says:

    This conversation brings to mind the phrase “zero tolerance” we used in the public schools to describe bullying, violence, sexual harassment, and other truly abhorrent behavior by students. It was a phrase meant to convey to students and their parents that we meant business, that we were no longer going to accept excuses for very bad behavior just because it once was condoned to some degree in the past. Old habits die hard. The “zero tolerance policy” made it clear to our students that we were serious about protecting ALL of our students’ rights, not just the rights of the strongest and most privileged students.

  69. Dread says:

    Yup lots of witch burners here for sure.

  70. Dread says:

    Yes I exaggerated that claim. It was a useless and unnecessary barb.

    Obsession with racism will only create more.

    This cannot end well. It cannot produce righteous results. It cannot assuage the vileness of our hearts to continue in accusation and counter accusation.

    We are not healing. And we are not even interested in healing.

  71. The New Victor says:

    As an aside, but kind of relevant, I found the movie Greater on Netflix last week. I’m not a football or sports fan, but it was a great movie. According to the reviews, not much embellished over the real story about Brandon Burlsworth whose character and Christian faith took him from being ridiculed from high school into college being a hopeless walk-on to playing Division 1 in college despite everyone against him… (and, mocking his dreams), and I won’t spoil it further for those not familiar with the story.

    I was struck by it as a colleague at work experienced similarly with his college aged son a few years ago.

  72. josh hamrick says:

    Obsession with racism…good lord. It was an outright racist comment.

    Dread’s plan for racial-healing: keep the status quo.

  73. Dread says:

    What is the status quo Josh?

    Tell me what I’m advocating.

    You actually know what the status quo is?

    Gruden is gone — that’s status quo

    What else

  74. josh hamrick says:

    You don’t want anyone to think about racism, or do anything to try to eradicate it. Oh sure, if it bubbled over into a higher crime, like murder, you’d probably react. But the everyday, mundane mistreatment of blacks? Don’t talk about it. Not a big deal. The people who notice the racism are the problem, not the actual racists.

  75. Dread says:

    It’s true I don’t give a tinker’s damn about Gruden’s old emails and I think the people who do are witch hunters and actual hate-mongers.

    If Gruden has lived in the NFL world and is an actual racist — someone who thinks he’s better than black people — then the world is pretty safe because his racism has been undetectable until we found his bad private language. Apparently actual racism is fairly harmless.

    Hell Hamrick you’re gonna get tired carrying all those bricks around. Take a break.

    Michael wanted us to talk about a world where redemption is not available only damnation. The world you bring to this blog with fervor.

    I’ll give you the last word. But honestly I think your really a very good man who needs some peace. It’s not found in searching for leaven.

    I’m done with this.

  76. josh hamrick says:

    You’ve got me all wrong Dread. I have peace like a river. Oddly, I have found the more I lay aside my old man, the more peace I find. The more discomfort that I am willing to endure to love my neighbor who does not look, talk, or think like me, the more peace I find. I’m not the one railing against “the woke” or “the left” or worried about the impending doom of our culture. I’m at peace, honestly.

    2. I haven’t searched for anything. I commented on the discussion of the day.

    3. As for how could a racist survive in the NFL for so many years…this is exactly what we’ve covered here for years. If someone has certain gifts, certain charisma, they can keep a job despite character flaws. It happens every day in every walk of life. How could a pedophile keep a position working with children for decades? It happens. What about a pastor who is greedy and abusive towards his congregants. Every day. The ONLY difference is that we are more comfortable with the sin of racism than those other sins, so sure, win a super bowl and people will overlook a lot.

  77. Michael says:

    Eradicating racism is a noble goal.
    It’s also close to impossible because of the evil in the human heart.
    Where Dread and I would disagree is that I do believe that many of our social structures enable racism and those structural changes have to be made.
    Where I have come around to his concerns is that I do see this civic religion that roots out the sin, but offers no hope of redemption or forgiveness for the sinner.
    Understand that holding to a traditional view of gender and sexuality makes you as much of a bigot in their eyes as Gruden…and there is a rope with your name on it.
    Of course, if you believe on the Christian version of the American civil religion you can hate Mexicans, refugees, and the poor with both vigor and the approval of your peers and the alleged blessing of God.

    I do not know what the solutions are…I only know I’m growing to old to attend to to it all.

  78. josh hamrick says:

    Of course eradicating racism is impossible. Getting rid of any sin is impossible. We love our sins! But certainly the answer is not to accept the sin in small tolerable doses. No, like abuse, greed, lying…we’ll never get rid of any of those either, but we call it out where we see it. We notice it our own heart and repent and try to do better.

    AS far as the rope with my name on it? Of course it is there, and I’m not scared. I will be as loving as possible to those who disagree with me. I will not use slurs or demean people, even though I have in the past. If some homophobic thought from my past is exposed, I will publicly repent and try to use the opportunity to spread the gospel. I’m fine with being hated for the truth. I do not want to be hated because I’m just a jerk.

  79. Dread says:

    So what is a homophobic thought?

    Is Reading Romans 1 without comment a homophobic thought? Is opposing gay marriage a homophobic thought. What is homophobic? Your adoption of a category that has no basis in scripture and naming it as a repeatable offense.

    Don’t get me wrong I know it is possible to sin against a person for their identity. But the exposure of “a homophobic thought from my past” ????

    A little clarity —

  80. josh hamrick says:

    There is a common slur used against gay people that I used quite often in the past. I meant it with hatred and superiority. I don’t use it any more, not because my belief on sexuality has changed, but because I understood that was not a loving way to treat other people.

  81. Dread says:

    Good response — a personal slur is definitely something to face.

    But the category of homophobic would include your faith practices.

  82. josh hamrick says:

    That doesn’t scare me. I’m perfectly fine with being called homophobic for believing the biblical truth. I will try to treat people with love regardless. Slurs, hatred, and irrational fears are not loving.

  83. Em says:

    There is a Lutheran pastor on TV who is a confessed homosexual. He calls it sin and does not accept his inclination to be attracted to men. Some crosses are heavy burdens.

  84. pstrmike says:

    I remember doing some work on the life of Alexander Solzhenitsyn who was imprisoned for eight years for critiquing Stalin in a private letter. Now we are seeing the exposure of character defects in what is private correspondence and the price is not only termination, but public banishment. No wonder a particular leader within Calvary refuses to engage with some over controversial topics via e-mail. I don’t blame him.

    “And corporate powers are becoming the whore that rides the beast.”

    It appears to be so, and hard rain is gonna fall……….

  85. Em says:

    pstrmike – amen
    I think the OT teaches is how God deals with nations, the US is on thin ice now….. IMHO

  86. josh hamrick says:

    You guys should hold a rally to protest this grave injustice.

  87. Em says:

    josh, will you join us? ? ? ? 🙂

  88. josh hamrick says:

    Nope. 🙂

  89. josh hamrick says:

    But you guys be careful out there, I’m those nasty wokesters will be out and about trying to ruin your rally.

  90. Jean says:

    Most large, multi-national, companies, (1) have a diverse customer base which they compete for, and (2) compete with other large companies for the best talent around the world. In such competitive environments, a company’s reputation for equal opportunity, a great workplace environment, and non-discrimination in the work place are not “nice to haves,” but table stakes.

    Everyone knows this and highly educated, highly compensated employees know (or should know) that they are held to a high standard of behavior and language, because what they say and do reflects on the entire company.

    Right now there is a significant worker shortage in many industries. Companies are fighting tooth and nail for talent. In order to recruit talent in the current labor environment, a company has to offer more than just a competitive compensation package. They have to offer a good work environment and an attractive career path. Most employee candidates will pass on an employer whose workplace has a reputation as hostile to women or people of color, if they have multiple offers.

  91. Dan from Georgia says:

    Josh, in all-not-too-seriousness, the Christian Post news rag ran a slew of fear-mongering articles about BLM, wokeism, and the like. A few of these articles went so far as to say that wokeism, for example, is the biggest threat to the church today.

    Something about the gates of hell shall not something something…

  92. Dread says:

    November Commentary Magazine is a special issue called Woke The Threat and it has a significant body of articles about the unique danger to America of wokeness.

    Mockers abound but something serious and uncompromising is afoot and it will infiltrate every aspect of your life.

    Go to http://www.commentary.org to sample what will be expounded upon.

  93. Just Sayin' says:

    Wow…whenever I fire up the ol’ PC and check out what’s up here at the Phoenix Preacher and see that the comment count is over 50 before the post is even a couple of hours old, I know the topic is either race relations or the most polite way to re-state the Christian view that homosexuals should be less prominent in public life. Even the Lutheran vs. everyone else debate doesn’t hit those comment counts!

    But seriously…a discussion of the NFL, free speech, and cancel culture without the name of Colin Kaepernick being mentioned even once? With a high concentration of West Coast/California folks who usually comment? OK…

  94. Dan from Georgia says:

    Em, is this Lutheran pastor’s initials TB? Not looking for dirt or gossip but I think I know who the gentleman is and wasn’t aware his program was broadcast outside of his home state.

  95. Em says:

    Dan, his program is called “The Pastor’s Study.” We get it pn Mondays up here in Washington – he is worth listening to, IMV

  96. Em says:

    Just sayin’ – there are lots of good comments – good ponders IMV . … 🙆

  97. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Em. He is a solid man of God. I’ve seen his show a few times back in Minnesota.

  98. Jean says:

    I don’t typically use the words woke and cancel, but the right in this country is by the same definitions woke and capable of canceling that which they do not like. No where are they doing a better job than in the education of our youth.

    https://amp.star-telegram.com/news/local/education/article255015277.html

    What the right is mandating in schools today, erasing American history so that children will not feel bad will not improve race relations nor educate our youth.

  99. Em says:

    Jean, the “right” id doing that? … Hmmm

  100. Em says:

    id? blush
    Make that is…..

  101. Jean says:

    Are you surprised Em?

  102. Em says:

    Jean, just skeptical. … 🙆

  103. Jean says:

    If citizens were taught the whole truth about the past, they would demand change, and that scares the devil out of people who desire the status quo or to regress to a more dominant era.

  104. Em says:

    “Back in my day…”. 😉
    we were taught the whole truth, yes the indigenous people were overwhelmed by the new, more advanced settlers appearing on this continent. Were the indigenous people guiltless? No, they fought each other for turf. But us white skinned folk (possibly by God’s will – dunno) were the more powerful and thus able to advance their ambitions. Not al good, but not all bad either. .😔 😚

  105. Ppmath says:

    The state hasn’t imprisoned Gruden, not even for one day. He lost his corporate job for making racist comments in company email. I would have been fired for that 20 years ago. This is not new or even “woke,” and it is better than people of color having to just let those comments just slide by as “just a joke.” As for redemption, we’ll maybe he could try for a little actual remorse that he would make such comments. I think that’s usually referred to as repentance. As for public banishments, he’s a public figure. He made a lot of money as a public figure. He can be a non public figure, just like most Americans. It won’t kill him. Michael, I’m sorry to have brought up Gruden again. I just had to comment. I’m a big fan of this site and what you’re doing here. The divisions here mirror those in our country and therefore they scare me. But a least we’re still talking. However I’m a lurker who will now return to lurking!

  106. Michael says:

    Ppmath,

    Come out more often…that was well said!

  107. josh hamrick says:

    PPmath – Bingo!

  108. Officerhoppy says:

    Culturally, is disagreeing with another individual an act of hate? I get confused on the term and it’s use

  109. Jean says:

    “Culturally, is disagreeing with another individual an act of hate?”

    Unfortunately, all too often. In matters of theology as well as in secular matters.

  110. josh hamrick says:

    Disagreement in our culture is often received as hate. That is all the more reason to be careful with our words and make sure our speech and actions are filled with love. Again, lets make sure, as far as we can, that it is the truth that is being rejected, and just our jerky attitudes.

  111. Xenia says:

    I am sure if I said in response to a question in a public venue (class, volunteer group meeting) that yes, I agreed with the Holy Scriptures that (pick one: abortion, homosexuality, formication, etc.) is a sin I would be loudly denounced as a hateful person. And even if I tried to back peddle (which I wouldn’t), I could never be apologetic or remorseful enough to satisfy the mob.

  112. Jean says:

    What it boils down to is: What are the definitions of love and hate? Telling someone that a sin (that feels right or natural to that person) is okay or good is not a loving affirmation. Confirming someone in their sin is hateful when done knowing the act or omission is sinful.

  113. Em says:

    Xemia, calling sin, sin is tota!ly misunderstood in these times. What word would substitute? Certainly not “mistake.”
    Guess I’d go with offense to God with destructive consequences… . dunno. 🙆

  114. Em says:

    Jean, perfect description of enabling! ! !

  115. Xenia says:

    If I am asked “do you think (abominable practice) is a sin, I have to answer “yes” without candy-coating it with excuses that won’t hold up in the heavenly court.

    I won’t be nasty, but I am not going to offer loopholes, either.

  116. Em says:

    Xenia, i guess that i’d answer, “what is your definition of the word ‘sin?”
    then, with that answer to go on, i could either use the word “sin” or elaborate a bit…
    But, yes, sin is sin….

  117. Officerhoppy says:

    If one of my daughters reached into a medicine cabinet and were about to ingest a pretty colored pill that would harm them, I would quickly swat it out of their hand. It may be perceived by my daughter as an act of meanness or hate. But in actuality it was an act of love.

  118. Em says:

    Officerhoppy, well said again….

    Are we in the days where eveil is called good and good evil? Dunno, but it seems so

  119. Xenia says:

    Everyone knows what “sin” is, Em, whether they want to play word games with us or not.

  120. Em says:

    Xenia, i am not sure in these times that folk ARE clear in their minds as to what sin is…..
    Witness all the compromising churches…. Just today i received an Email that, essentially declared that God says, “I know all the human race is prone to sin. So I forgive all of them! ”
    Say What ? ? ?
    I’ve said it before, but we aren’t taught the aspects of holy anymore…. IMNSHO. 😇

  121. Jean says:

    Moral sin is often where this issue comes up, but it’s not the only context. For example, some Christians believe that closed communion is hateful or at least unloving. Other Christians believe that open baptism is hateful or unloving. People have an innate need to be justified. It becomes a problem when we demand to be justified by other human beings rather than by God.

  122. Muff Potter says:

    Xenia @ 12:11 pm,

    “I won’t be nasty, but I am not going to offer loopholes, either.”

    I’ll take and exploit all the loopholes I can get.
    It depends entirely on which sins we’re talking about, not all sin is the same.

  123. Michael says:

    I believe closed communion that excludes other baptized believers misrepresents God.

    Call that what you will.

    These are dreary conversations to me…always talking about the obvious sins…but I’m nether gay, nor sexually immoral, but struggle with things I know are offensive to God.

  124. EricL says:

    As a young believer who joined a Southern Baptist church, I was bewildered when the more fundamentalist churches in the local association accused that church (and a handful of other congregations that were growing) of the awful sins of “alien immersion” and “open communion”. The charges didn’t hold, but it was quite the controversy at the time.

    As a baby Christian, I was rather dumbfounded at such nitpicking and in-fighting. Now, decades later, I still shake my head whenever a fundamentalist pushes God off the Judgment Seat and starts ruling everyone else unworthy of their standards. As Michael said, dreary conversations indeed.

  125. Jean says:

    “Now, decades later, I still shake my head whenever a fundamentalist pushes God off the Judgment Seat and starts ruling everyone else unworthy of their standards.”

    I agree. This was a bedrock issue which precipitated the Reformation. The Reformation ushered in the sola, Scripture Alone.

  126. Michael says:

    Jean,

    “I agree. This was a bedrock issue which precipitated the Reformation. The Reformation ushered in the sola, Scripture Alone.”

    This one is a classic example of missing the point…

    Actually, the Reformation ushered in the era of my tribes interpretation of scripture, alone…and created a whole new class of fundamentalists.

  127. Em says:

    I think – dunno – that folks here are sorting through these issues better than we realise….

    P.S. When our family moved to Kansas we joined the Southern Baptists – we were warned that, as visitors, many local churches would not allow us to take Communion…. back in the 1960s

  128. Jean says:

    I don’t think the fracture of the church, or the existence of fundamentalism, is brought about by the interpretation of Scripture, but by changing the meaning of Scripture under the guise of interpretation.

    If we looked at the primary doctrines that divide churches today, I doubt the problem is with Scripture or what it says, but with people who claim it means other than what it says.

  129. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I can’t handle this today.
    You believe your sect has it all down.
    Everybody else is wrong,.
    Lots of people feel that way about their tribe.
    I can’t understand that way of thinking and I believe it an impediment to the kingdom.

    I fully believe that all who call on the name of Christ are my family…regardless of tribal affiliation.
    I’m in communion with every other child of God because of Jesus…the rest is window dressing for the tribal gatherings.

  130. Muff Potter says:

    Michael wrote @ 4:23 pm,
    “Actually, the Reformation ushered in the era of my tribes interpretation of scripture, alone…and created a whole new class of fundamentalists.”

    Bingo.
    And if you ain’t in the tribe yer’ goin’ to hell.

  131. Officerhoppy says:

    Regarding interpretation of scripture, most “tribes” and their leaders forget this truth: you can’t make a passage say something today, that it didn’t mean when the God inspired writer wrote it.

    Just sayin’

  132. Jean says:

    Officerhoppy,

    I agree with you that “you can’t make a passage say something,” but, and this is important to acknowledge, no one alive today was there when the inspired writer wrote it, so it’s impossible to claim to know what it meant to someone thousands of years ago.

    Therefore, we should endeavor to interpret the passage according to what we do have, i.e., the words, grammar, context and the canon of Scripture.

    Just look, for example, at what the NPP interpreters are doing and their opponents, arguing over the degree of nomism in 2nd Temple Judaism. They can argue until the cows come home from this or that un-inspired historical artifact, and in the process bring Paul’s theology of grace into doubt. Or, we can confess the inspiration and clarity and sufficiency of Scripture and trust in the competency of the Holy Spirit, that He gave us Scripture we can understand and believe.

  133. Michael says:

    Just look at what the NPP interpreters are doing…I think we all should. Some good stuff there…

  134. BrianD says:

    Michael, well said on all 10 points.

    Cancel culture is part of the new secular religion that has no room nor tolerance for repentance and redemption…two things that are core parts of the Christian faith.

    Cancel culture and social banishment for saying the wrong thing years and years ago or for not being in complete agreement with the banishers scares me.

    There are a lot of things that scare me about the present age. What really scares me, though, is that the evangelical church, which claims to have the answer for all of the world’s ills, is very much part of the problem instead of the solution.

    Years ago, if you had told me the country was racing towards permanent political, economic and social division and possible violence and societal collapse, I would have insisted the church would be the voice in the wilderness, calling everyone to repent and presenting Jesus as the one offering the solution to all of the problems.

    I wouldn’t have dreamed the church would be caught up in the dysfunction, with factions siding with the left, factions siding with the right, and factions praying for the Rapture to happen NOW so they don’t have to bother with the mess…and many walking away not because they hunger to live like the devil, but because they’re fed up with the very real abuse and dysfunction that the church seemingly has embraced.

  135. Dan from Georgia says:

    Well stated BrianD. I too couldn’t have imaginged that some in the church would be part of the problem. And stating to some of my fellow believers that I won’t discuss politics, criticize or mock so-and-so, or get on the bandwagon for ___________ leaves them stumped and confused.

  136. BrianD says:

    Dan from Georgia, you are correct in stating SOME in the church are part of the problem.

    I want to clarify I know not every believer has chosen sides, putting some man or a mask or social justice as the focal point of their faith above Christ Himself. Not every church has done the same. Not every demonination, or branch of Christianity, has done the same. There probably is a very large remnant of believers out there with the sense to stay away from the factions.

    However, evangelicalism has split into two factions that to me have seemingly kicked God off His throne and displaced Christ as Lord, savior and redeemer — one with a man, the other with political activism. The religious fervor is still there, just moved from a moralism informed by Jesus and the Bible to whatever the new secular gods demand at the moment.

  137. Dan from Georgia says:

    I am in 100% agreement with you BrianD!

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