Wayne Grudem’s Wall

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35 Responses

  1. Duane Arnold says:

    I hate to say it, but I will. Reading Grudem’s article reminded me of the arguments made by German theologians in the 1930s, such as Paul Althaus.

  2. Jtk says:

    Am I liberal or conservative on immigration?

    FOR SURE, liberal. Generous. Merciful.

    Even WAY more liberal/”liberal” when it comes to refugees and those seeking asylum.

    Doing a word study on “immigrant” translated “alien” in NASB, really changed my Biblical thinking.
    I highly recommend studying it.

    Yet I still think a wall should be built.
    And thousands more ICE agents, hundreds more immigration judges and the like.

    We need to control who comes in.
    We need to stop the drugs, we especially need to stop the second offenders. We can deal with each righteously, and with a degree of compassion.

    And everyone else we should deal with mercifully. There can be degrees.

    Our current system is a joke.
    Where families are separated, especially for refugees, that is horrible.

    The waits and fines can be insane.
    Many rules are inconsistently enforced, if at all.

    If our nation’s immigration policies were the policies of any of our churches, I’d recommend starting over. It’s too complicated, horrible and random as is.

    But remember:
    Jesus, Jospeh and Mary fled for their lives to Egypt.
    Similar to nearly every Bible patriarch.

  3. Jtk says:

    Stop the “sex offenders”

    I’m not nearly as concerned about “second offenders”

  4. Steve says:

    I think Grudem is as misguided in his analysis of a wall as the social justice warriors that try to force their biblical mandate of care and concern for the poor and oppressed on a nation of tax payers that for the most part has rejected God. The problem here is that those on both sides of this debate are conflating the church of believers with our nation filled with unbelievers. Are we really a godly nation any more than Mexico is? I’m not saying Mexico is where I want to live but is it absolutely horrible? If its so extremely bad in Mexico, why do young kids constantly go over the border to vacation? I’m just asking the question.

  5. Michael says:

    Steve,
    Are you serious?
    Google “violence and Mexico” and get back to me…

  6. Steve says:

    Michael, yes I am serious. I just googled “violence and United” states and it was bad. Does Mexico have the mass shooting phenomenon evil that we see in churches, schools, movie theaters, hotels, etc.. that United States have?

  7. Michael says:

    Steve,
    I’m not home right now, so I’ll have to answer later.
    Mexico had had hyper violence since 2006…I’m never known anyone unaware of this.

  8. Duane Arnold says:

    #6 Steve

    Check out the murder rates in Honduras and El Salvador… Or maybe the recent Mexican election and the number of candidates and campaign workers murdered… Or check out violent kidnappings in El Salvador…

    Oh, btw, the Mexicans don’t call them mass shootings, because a whole bus load of kids can disappear and simply turn up in a mass grave later.

    It’s not excusing the violence here, but it is much, much worse south of the border.

  9. Steve says:

    Duane,
    I’m looking at some of the statistics which are fascinating. In some areas the crime and violence seems much worse in the United States. Other stats seem to support what you are saying. For this reason alone maybe its a good idea for a wall so both countries can vet those entering and leaving their borders. One stat that I found interesting is that cannabis use is 11 times more common in United State and opiates are 6 times more common in United States. That’s quite remarkable to me, unless the stats don’t really mean anything.

  10. bob1 says:

    “Levels of violence in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala are akin to those in the deadliest war zones around the world.”

    https://www.rescue.org/country/el-salvador

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I was listening to Leviticus 20-25 this morning on my walk. It does speak about the sojourners and aliens and implies how they should be treated. It also says in Lev 25 that you can take them as slaves and property. I don’t know that we can or should make public policy from the scriptures.

    It is funny when you read the Facebook memes that use Leviticus for the border situation and when you ask if they also like what Leviticus has to say about unmarried or homosexual activities, they get mad. What’s that all about?

  12. Em says:

    Michael’s #5 inadvertently focuses on a big concern of mine. Along with the good people running north to save their lives we have the very people they are running from in their midst taking advantage of the opportunity to increase their operations on this side of the border.
    A conversation related to me recently. Talking with a Latino coworker and good friend of many years, the subject of Mexican gang activity came up. The hypothetical question of gangs leaning on solid citizens came up.
    “So, if they told you to do something, you’d do it?”
    “Yes.”
    ” Even kill? ”
    “Yes.”
    ” But you wouldn’t kill a friend – me? ”
    The chilling answer, “I’d have to or they’ll kill my family.”

    Now, the horse is already out of the barn, so is it too late to lock the barn door? How do we curb the momentum? Clean the barn?

    Praying for you Michael. Your heart is deep in this problem. Pray the day comes when you can rejoice in a resolution. I know that our God’s heart is where yours is, has been for thousands of years. That cross is the pivot for all mankind. Don’t mean to come across as patronizing or platitudinous – hope i dont… the sorrows are real and advocating for the victims of today has to be pleasing to Him. May God protect you also.

    Praying for those boys in the cave in Thailand. As Xenia might say, oh Lord have mercy! A dilemma that is almost a parallel to our bigger problem here 😕

  13. Michael says:

    Comparing violence in the U.S. with that in Central America and Mexico is not even close to being a true comparison.
    Between 2006 and 2010, 10,000 orphans were created in Juarez alone. This…while the city on the other side of the bridge had the lowest crime rate on America…

  14. Em says:

    #12 – not comparable in volume, but it is here now – how to stop it? can we?

  15. Michael says:

    It’s not comparable, period. Not one of the tens of thousands of murders in Juarez alone has ever been solved or prosecuted. 116 political candidates were executed this year. The success rate at being able to murder with impunity is over 90%. It is also now one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a journalist. Mexico is lawless…we are not.

  16. Em says:

    15 – yes, but can’t one look at that situation and still be concerned that this evil has made its first inroads over the border, be concerned that the cancer we see there is here? See the need to stop its progress?
    I heard Mexico’s President elect say that if we dont want gangs and drugs to cross the border that we should mass our armies at their border and stop it… that it is our responsibility, not theirs…
    I pray we never do that, but it was a very illuminating comment

    I do believe that, if this nation responded to the Holy Spirit’s powerful supply to direct us to repentance and salvation, God would supply solutions to all of this, but… sigh… as it stands now, history teaches that we have become a nation that God does not bless… but doesn’t prophesy indicate that the world is on the course predicted? dunno…😦

  17. Steve says:

    Mexico is lawless…we are not.
    ______________________________________________________________

    My first thought is thank God for the “law and order” president Trump exactly as he campaigned as. 🙂 I know that may sound flippant but if Mexico is truly lawless than a strongly enforced border is “EXACTLY” what is called for.

  18. Michael says:

    Steve,

    You may thank God for him as you wish…but he is utterly clueless and a proven liar on border issues.

  19. Michael says:

    Em,

    Mexico’s violence is a result of economic factors, government corruption, and our insatiable desire for dope.

    We’ve been a huge factor in creating that climate.

    I don’t see us having those issues here in anywhere near the degree.

  20. Steve says:

    Michael, Well Trump is what we have for now as our president. At a minimum we should pray for the dude. He is no worse than Obama in my estimation.

  21. Michael says:

    Steve,

    The Daily Office of my tradition includes prayers for him.
    They blessedly do not demand I give thanks for him…

  22. Michael says:

    Duane posted this link describing condition for women and children in El Salvador…

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/el-salvador-women-gangs-ms-13-trump-violence/554804/

  23. Em says:

    # 21… 😁

    Perhaps only history will prove which leaders we should have been thankful for …

  24. Cash says:

    “You can’t wrap the King in any earthly flag.” Amen and amen.

  25. Michael says:

    From immigration attorney Scott Hicks;

    “I post this for everyone, even though it is an argument based on Scripture from a theologian. I do not have time to go into a full rebuttal, but feel compelled to point out a few things.

    I will not really go into the Scripture argument, other than to note this reads much more like eisegesis (reading into the text what you want it to say) than exegesis.

    But what really irks me is the use of straw men to make the case. Much of the piece, once you get past the theology, is arguing against open borders.

    Dr. Grudem, the United States has not had open borders in about 140 years. Literally, we have hundreds of pages of laws and regulations detailing who is allowed to come and who is not and what keeps you out or gets you kicked out. There are literally at least five Federal Agencies who oversee this, DHS, DOJ, DOS, DOL, and and HHS, with multiple agencies and branches within each of these involved.

    But wait, there’s more. I have been professionally involved in this area since 1995. I can not name a SINGLE person who seriously argues that we should have no regulation or control over who comes to this country. I’m sure they are out there. But to act as if this is a mainstream argument is ridiculous. So, you make your main argument against a position that no one seriously is arguing for, or those that do are on the fringes.

    But wait, there’s more. Dr., you trot out the canard that you are for immigration, but it has to be legal. This fundamentally ignores the legal reality that there is NO WAY for most people who might want to immigrate to do so. Yes, we do allow about 600K spouses, parents, or minor children of US Citizens in a year. And yes, we let another 366Kish in based on the quotas. But the reality is that these numbers are highly restrictive.

    If you look at these numbers, what you immediately see is that there are about 40% of them dedicated to employment based immigration. For the most part, the base criteria to even be considered for such a visa is a four year college degree. The Census Bureau on April 2017 said that 33.4 percent of Americans had a four year degree. That means that nearly 2/3 of Americans would not even qualify to immigrate somewhere else with our rules. For most of the world, a four year degree is something only the richest and most elite can aspire to. So, clearly, coming as business based immigrant legally is going to be a non answer for nearly everyone in the world.

    That leaves us with the remaining quarter millionish for family based immigration. These categories are highly restricted. A US Citizen can sponsor their adult children or their siblings. A Permanent Resident can sponsor their spouses or their unmarried children. And each of these categories takes years, if not decades of waiting in line for a visa.
    And if you do not have one of these qualifying relatives, your only chance is literally that. A chance that your name will be picked out of the hat for the 50K Diversity Visa Lottery visas. About 20 million applied last year, so you have about a .0025% chance of success, and even then you must prove you have a high school education. Which for most of the world is virtually unattainable. Oh, plus, t’s only for countries with historically low immigration. So, if you come from a country with higher immigration rates over time, you can’t even apply (Can you say, no thank you to Mexicans, among others)

    All of this is to say that the “legal path” simply does not exist for most people who would like to come.

    But even more egregiously, Dr. Grudem, you fundamentally ignore that many of the people trying to come to the U.S. at the southern border are literally fleeing for their lives. Guatelamala, Honduras, and El Salvador are a cesspool of violence and death where drug cartels routinely murder people who have the temerity to say no to them. Untold numbers of them have already been raped and terrorized and had close family members maimed or killed. The response of build a wall ignores this reality and treats our obligations to offer protection to people seeking asylum as superfluous. Such a response is particularly dangerous when what we are doing as we speak is routinely meeting people on the bridges and telling them that even though they are following the law and are presenting themselves to seek asylum, we are refusing to allow them to do so. When we finally do allow people to do so, we are locking them up and treating them like criminals while they plead their case. Or, if they are so desperate that they come in irregularly, then, we not only are locking them up we are charging them with a crime, even when they do ask for protection.

    This entire, “building the wall is morally ethical” argument seems to ignore the forest for the tree. It misses the larger ethical picture of demanding that the law itself is just. It misses the picture that we have a moral obligation to save life, not harm life. It misses the larger ethical picture that God judges a culture by whether the laws, leaders, and the people defend the defenseless and protect the weak and vulnerable. This is not a new issue. The author of James put it this way: if a person comes to you and lacks food or clothing, and you say to that person, be warm and filled, but you do nothing for them, what is the good of that? You have a dead faith.

    Finally, to finish up. Somehow, I have a hard time hearing Jesus say to these people: “Oh, you are fleeing violence and death and destruction. Good for you. Papers, please. Oh, you don’t have them, well, good luck, be safe on your trip back and good luck. Next.”

    Amen and amen…

  26. Em says:

    This is a BIG problem. 20,000,000 + relatives is a lot of humanity to manage
    Not all those tasked with the job of doing so are uncaring incompetents…
    i admit that i have no answer, other than shooting all the consumers of drugs (not a good one, to say the least)… all i can do is pray that God in His mercy gives us a workable, orrderly solution…

  27. bob1 says:

    Looks like Grudem has the same problem as our President…

    Damn near clueless when it comes to the facts.

  28. Em says:

    P.S. Haven’t forgotten Chester. Our near neighbor’s mother died yesterday and he is having a hard time. I know Michael has many near and dear friends, but losing a pet leaves an empty house… Praying

  29. Muff Potter says:

    @ Michael’s #19:
    So long as the Yanquis are willing to pay hugely inflated prices for recreational drugs, the Cartels will continue to do what they do best.
    Rake in the cash, and expand their power and influence.

    Maybe it’s time for the U.S. to wake up and realize that the drug war is unwinnable.
    We learned the hard way about unwinnable in Vietnam.

    Maybe it’s time to give serious consideration (here in our first-world paradise north of the border) to decriminalization of the recreational drug trade.

    Without tons of artificially inflated money, the amoral men who run the cartels can no longer do what they do best.

  30. Em says:

    Most folk would see the rationale of Muff’s #30…. seems logical and, like most morality, laws have proven to not solve the problem, might as well cancel them.. agreed…
    but will removing the laws SOLVE the problem? I understand that the Chinese (from China) and Mexican/Central American gangs are even now battling for turf here in the U.S. Wealthy Chinese have bought up whole neighborhoods in the greater San Francisco area…. some houses are occupied, some are vacant and some are being used as drug factories… these folk are buying up Seattle and Vancouver BC and price is no object, but that might have another objective – dunno
    at best, the drug products breed evil…

    I understand that the President of the Philippines takes drug dealers up for a plane ride over the South Pacific .. they aren’t there when the plane lands… rumors? Dunno

    I guess what is troubling me now is the prevailing hope that solutions to these problems are easy, that older generations’ ineptitude caused our problem… To some degree that is true, but don’t underestimate evil… It exploits nice to its advantage
    Could be wrong.. dont think so, tho. 😦

  31. Em says:

    A surfer sighting!!! Good to see – God keep

  32. dusty says:

    Hey surfer51, still praying for you my friend.

  33. The New Victor says:

    My ex asked me today off I would agree to her getting Mexican citizenship (dual) for our children who were born here. On the surface I don’t see an issue with it. The family is from Oaxaca. While the violence there has risen, is nothing like the worst places. I still stand firm on not allowing her to take them to Mexico until they are teenagers, and can advocate for themselves in my mind.

    I confess that I’m not rah-rah patriotic like a lot of Americans and almost all Mexicans I’ve ever met (hyper proud of their origins). I realize on the other side that is something impossible for me to really relate to. I told their mom that it might be a good idea since of this country fell, they would have another country to which to go. She nodded her head emphatically, but then I said that if the USA fell, Mexico would likely be so much worse.

    She seemed to take a little offense, “but we just elected a new president different than the others! Only maybe 20% of us are bad, but most of us are good people who want the best!” I sympathize. Yet I cringed at how many people gushed over Obama, and how many gush over trump, and apropos of nothing, I was reading about Pancho Villa last week and the history of Mexico and their revolutions and the tendency of caudillos (strong men) after which so many of them followed… the rebellions… the politics between Mexican states…. and I grew tired reading about it.

    I wish the best to them, but history hasn’t been kind to upstarts.

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