What Are We Left With?

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  1. centorian says:

    I have been asking this question for years. I have no real answers. I quit once, that didn’t work. I’ve considered doing it again, although much differently. Yet thins are actually starting to blossom after a long walk through what appeared to be the valley of death.

    I have bigger things in my little world to concern me. But none-the-less, thanks for making me think this morning Briand.

  2. Sarah says:

    Praying.

  3. Michael says:

    Centy,

    I wrote this one, it defaults to BrianD because it likes his stuff better. 😉

    I want to rage this morning…against ignorant accusers of the brethren like Prasch and against the loss of a comrade…but what He’s doing in your world let’s me know He’s still working…there’s still hope and the story isn’t over yet.

  4. Nonnie says:

    Instead of saying something I may regret, I will pray.

  5. Phil Naessens says:

    Michael,

    This was my devotional this morning. It helped me and I hope it does the same thing for you my friend;

    2Corinthians 12:7-10
    And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
    Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    Thats what we’re left with. A God whose bigger then us who has given us the precious gift of Grace! Hang on to that!

    Phil

  6. Michael says:

    Phil,

    That’s a great word for today…thank you.

  7. filbertz says:

    those paragraphs you quoted sound like the ramblings of a mentally ill person or a someone completely deluded and decieved. The internet provides forum for many who otherwise, and for good reason, have no voice. Their “following” is comprised of like-minded fools who feed each other’s misguided views. I lump them into the same category as those who fill cyberspace with science-fiction and fantasy and believe it to be true. This stuff is spirit-fiction. Sure, the Church is, in many ways, troubled and struggling, but the Head is fine even if the Body is slow to respond. As we look to Him, we will find peace, perspective, and courage.

  8. Michael says:

    fil,

    They are spiritually ill…and demand that others share their disease.

    I’m torn between tears and the desire to punch Prasch until I’m tired…

  9. Sarah says:

    First, God raised up my mom to establish in our home the Christian faith.

    Then, He raised up my dad who came to faith late in life, but has become the standard for walking faithfully in suffering.

    Then, He raised up Skip Heitzig (yep) to reach me when I was in the junk that happens in high school. He used Skip to immerse me in the Word and surrounded me with friends who lifted me up when I wanted to end life.

    Next God raised up a host of professors, RA’s, and classmates at Westmont College that taught me a broader understanding of God’s kingdom.

    Next God raised up a woman named Candy who taught me how to pray like no one ever has. She modelled prayer before me and integrity.

    Next God raised up the folks, those hippy folks, at Jesus People USA to show me what community meant, and to broaden and enliven my understanding of God.

    Then God raised up my husband to teach me integrity and love and faithfulness and wonder and happiness.

    THen God raised up JI Packer, Gordon Fee, John Stackhouse, Charles Ringma, Eugene Peterson, Madeleine L’Engle (!), Dave Diewert and a host of other folks at Regent that showed me grace and taught me to think.

    Then He raised up Michael, Nomans, Dusty, BrianD and the whole gang here to teach me about taking stands for the right reasons, taught me about disagreeing and repenting and trying to understand each other.

    Next He raised up the folks at TVC to teach me great joy in worship and community and walking together in the faith.

    Oh, some of the folks on my list that God raised up are on the other list as being raised up by Satan.

    It is a staggering thought to think of attributing to Satan what is of God.

    It’s staggering to think of it the other way, too.

    How much more staggering will it be to enter eternity and see these men in their resurrected bodies?

    We have to be careful with our words and our judgments. We have to be so cautious in what we attribute to the enemy of our souls. He does exist, he does hate us and hates God all the more. He would love nothing more than to sit by and watch us devour each other.

    Let’s not give him the show. Let’s pray for those we are concerned about. Let’s take our stands and do so with some compassion and some grace for those we oppose, knowing that we are so deficient in being able to judge the soul of another.

  10. Michael says:

    Well said, Sarah.

    I confess that I’m having a very hard time extending grace to people who have spoken of Packer and Stott as being of the devil.

    I know you’re right…and I know my fathers in the faith would be gracious…but I want to kick someones ass so bad it’s making me sick.
    Today is not a good day for me to be online…

  11. London says:

    what a dope!

    Ok, I have a real question. This morning I read through 1 Kings 22 where Ahab is about to meet his doom. Micaiah says he sees Jehovah sitting on his throne and Jehovah is trying to figure out a way to trick Ahab into going into battle so he can get killed. Then he sends a “lying spirit” to the prophets so they lie (or mis hear) and tell Ahab he’ll win the battle.

    God sends lying spirits?? What about verses that say “test the spirits”…if God is sending lying ones then who the heck are you supposed to trust?

    Confused..

  12. London says:

    what a dope!

    Ok, I have a real question. This morning I read through 1 Kings 22 where Ahab is about to meet his doom. Micaiah says he sees Jehovah sitting on his throne and Jehovah is trying to figure out a way to trick Ahab into going into battle so he can get killed. Then he sends a “lying spirit” to the prophets so they lie (or mis hear) and tell Ahab he’ll win the battle.

    God sends lying spirits?? What about verses that say “test the spirits”…if God is sending lying ones then who the heck are you supposed to trust?

    I thought God hated lies.

    Confused..

  13. Nomansapologist says:

    Beautiful, Sarah.
    These ramblings actually have a powerful work in my soul…
    It strengthens my resolve to fight for what Michael Spencer lived out, and Michael worded so perfectly;
    “I was always aware of his gifts to the body, the most important being the gift to allow people to think out of barbed wire boxes and meet Jesus for themselves”

    That’s what I am left with.
    A deep strong desire to effect change within my God granted microsphere.

    I pray each of us lay hold of a piece of this pioneers legacy and start a fire with it.

  14. Michael says:

    The devil is God’s devil…and God does use evil to achieve holy purposes.

  15. Michael says:

    “That’s what I am left with.
    A deep strong desire to effect change within my God granted microsphere.

    I pray each of us lay hold of a piece of this pioneers legacy and start a fire with it.”

    May those be the attitude and actions of all who feel the loss of a brother today.

  16. Patrick says:

    Not to start a fight, but at the end of that literary feces, he asks that God would keep men like Dave Hunt, and David Wilkerson??????

    I mean Wilkerson has been saying “the sky is falling” for a looooonngggg time, and nothing has come to pass, and Hunt is an exegetical train-wreck and fear mongering, body-dividing puppet.

    Funny who gets the nod and who doesn’t.

  17. Michael says:

    Patrick,

    You’ll get no fight from me…I couldn’t agree more.

  18. Patrick says:

    If Satan raised up Packer and Stott, then he needs new spokesmen, because both of those men have pointed me to Christ a gazillion times, which would certainly not be the M.O. of the devil.

    If anything, maybe Satan raised up the ‘discernment’ people to divide and devour the Body?

    Weird how this verse always gets overlooked by them:
    “But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.” Galatians 5:15

  19. Believe says:

    Michael said, “The devil is God’s devil…and God does use evil to achieve holy purposes.”

    That is a fascinating comment. Have to think on that one for awhile.

  20. Michael says:

    Patrick,

    I’m reading Stott’s “The Cross of Christ” again…and if that is from the pit we’re all lost.

    What a magnificent book…

  21. Michael says:

    Believe,

    The quote is from Luther, the principal biblical.
    God is sovereign over all things…

  22. Believe says:

    Michael…do you believe then, that the devil has “free will”?

  23. Patrick says:

    I’m not Michael, but I would say that Satan is free to act according to his nature; which means he acts as a liar, murderer, and a thief ALWAYS with no hope of regeneration ever.

  24. Jeffn Stewart says:

    I am with fil, mentally unstable for sure, and when anyone objective stands back and reads this you have to think that from this guys perpspective I would rather be “from Satan” than “the Faithful brethren” anyday….I would be real worried to be on his good list:)

  25. Michael says:

    Believe,

    I don’t believe in your concept of “free will” in any way.

    He is free as we are, free to choose according to his nature, under the sovereignty of God.

  26. Michael says:

    Jeff,

    Ain’t that the truth…I’m upset that I didn’t make the heretic cut…

  27. filbertz says:

    Jeff,
    “I am with fil, mentally unstable for sure…”

    Could you rephrase that please? 🙂

  28. Michael says:

    LOL! 😉

  29. Nonnie says:

    I am surprised Chuck Smith isn’t on the list. After all he actually sat next to Rick Warren at an evangelical outreach.

    Oh, the horror!

  30. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    Lighthouse Trails did just that this weekend…Chuck, Greg Laurie, and they’ve really got it in for Gayle Erwin.

  31. Believe says:

    Michael…then can the devil do “good”?

  32. Nonnie says:

    You know what I have noticed over the years is that as men of God get older they seem to become more gracious, tolerant, and Christ focused. Their passion for Christ has not wavered but the way they present Him is with a holy gentleness. Strength under control and enveloped in love.
    I think of Billy Graham, JI Packer, J. Piper, C. Smith. just offhand.

  33. Believe says:

    Wasn’t there a time when lucifer was not fallen?

    …as well as the other angels…who then fell?

  34. Bryan Stupar says:

    …and then Satan raised up little bit players who engaged in the filthy role of, “accusing the brethren” just like him (Rev. 12), by writing books, blogging + running “discernment ministries”.

    Q. “What are we left with?”
    A. Only those, whose worlds as small as their love.

    This post made me both sad (iMonk) and angry (moriel).

  35. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    The greatest lesson that I’m struggling to learn from Packer is how to be gracious and Christ like even in the face of the worst provocation.

    You make a great point.

  36. Michael says:

    Believe,

    The devil only can do good unwittingly.
    “When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him.”
    So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father gave this command before he died,
    ‘Say to Joseph, Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him.
    His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
    But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
    As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
    So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.”
    (Genesis 50:15–21 ESV)

  37. Michael says:

    “Wasn’t there a time when lucifer was not fallen?”

    Don’t know…the Bible says little on the topic.

  38. Believe says:

    The angels were “created” beings…and lucifer and the fallen angels at one time communed with God…so they had to be “Holy” at one time…or they could not have dwelt with God…or am I missing something?

    lucifer then fell into the sin of pride and wanted to be God…above God. He deceived a third of his fellow angels…and they fell with him…am I wrong?

    It appears that lucifer was “holy” and then “sinned” and fell…along with a third of the angels.

    So, at one time lucifer was “good”…wasn’t he?

  39. Believe says:

    …if they are “fallen” angels…it means at one time they weren’t “fallen”…in order to “fall” you..at one time…would have to be not-fallen…and have dwelt with God…thus Holy.

  40. Believe says:

    Man…pre-fall…dwelt with God…and then “chose” to sin.

  41. Bryan Stupar says:

    addendum to my previous post…
    …this is in contrast to God, who’s universe is great and who’s love is yet greater, still.
    Psalm 36:5
    Psalm 139:9-18

  42. Michael says:

    Believe,

    Again, all the information we have about Satan would fit on a single page.

    I try to avoid theology by speculation.

    The Bible does speak of “elect” angels (1 Tim 5:21) so there may have been non elect ones as well.

    Don’t know…

  43. Jeff Stewart says:

    Sorry fil, I retract that sentence and leave you alone in your mental instability 🙂

  44. Believe says:

    Ezekiel 28:14-19

  45. Em says:

    ok have to jump in on this one – cuz i’m not a theologian and can’t be held accountable (i know, i know – we’re accountable for every word… to God)
    1-there is only One who is absolute ‘good’ and, perhaps, the word ‘holy’ needs some thought along those lines, too… can holiness be transitory?
    2-God came to walk with Adam and Eve and i think that indicates that they weren’t ‘dwelling’ with Him.

    Michael noted “Bible does speak of “elect” angels (1 Tim 5:21) so there may have been non elect ones as well” hmmm, there must be something to this ‘elect’ thing….

    BTW – God bless and comfort Michael and all who grieve in cyberspace and in reality over the loss of iMonk

  46. Believe says:

    1 Timothy 3:6

  47. centorian says:

    I read the LHT article regarding Erwin. It started out ok, but soon resembled the drunken tirades of my dad more than any coherent crtique of doctrine and practice. I kept asking myself, what (and why) was the purpose of the article.

    It is too bad about Prasch. I actually like the guy, he’s got some good things to say. But unfortunately, he flies the hawk instead of the dove. Not only that, but he does associate himself with a few that are very questionable… Two can play the guilt by association card…… 8)

  48. Believe says:

    Isaiah 14:12-15

  49. Believe says:

    Michael said, “I try to avoid theology by speculation.”

    …you are a Calvinist, Michael…not taking a shot at you, just pointing out that one man’s speculation is another man’s corroboration via scripture and an attempt at understanding the nature of God and things.

  50. Michael says:

    Believe,

    First off, all we know is that pride was the root sin for Satan’s fall.

    We don’t know where that sin came from and that question is where the rub is.

    The other issue is that angels and men are two different classes of created beings.
    Christ did not die for fallen angels.

    There are many questions, few answers…if you wish to draw some conclusions from them, thats your prerogative.

  51. Believe says:

    Job 38:7

  52. Nonnie says:

    Bryan Stupar, Amen to what you said!

  53. Believe says:

    Michael…that can be said of most of Scripture…other than the simple message of the Gospel..the Two Greatest Commandments…and the Birth, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

  54. Michael says:

    Believe,

    Actually, the Bible expounds many doctrines explicitly in many places.

    However, we Calvinists only consider the ones that Calvin wrote commentaries on.

    Then we only read the commentaries.

    Cause I’m a Calvinist …

  55. Believe says:

    Luke 10 and Revelation 12

    Interesting stuff…

  56. Believe says:

    Michael…is it a prerequisite to be expounded in order for it to be a doctrine you hold to…

    You believe in lucifer and the devil…and fallen angels…and Adam and Eve…and that they were the only moral “free agents”…correct?

  57. Concerned says:

    Many of the “Messianics” don’t like the “church” in general (My observations only!)

    Surprised that in those he supported and blessed, Chuck Smith was in that list.

  58. Michael says:

    I don’t have enough information about the angelic state and I refuse to speculate from Scriptural silence.

    Adam and Eve did have libertarian free will before the fall.

    No one has had it since.

    “¶ The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
    (1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV)
    “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
    Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
    (Romans 8:7–8 ESV)

  59. Believe says:

    Michael…what if as Arminius believed…there was enough “good” left in man…post-fall…to exercise his will and choose Salvation?

    Certainly, man was “good” pre-fall…then “chose” to sin (after being tempted by the devil / lucifer…the “serpent”…the “deceiver”…the “fallen one”…the “accuser”)…that is agreed.

  60. Believe says:

    Michael…you believe in Total Depravity…post-fall…correct?

  61. Michael says:

    You might want to read Arminius before you state what he believed…

  62. Michael says:

    If I say I believe in “total depravity” what does that mean to you?
    How do you define what you think I believe?

  63. Believe says:

    Genesis 2:17

    We (Adam and Eve) ate of the Tree. Did they not receive the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Did that not carry over to “us” post-fall?

  64. Michael says:

    Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature

    Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil’s instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.

    Article 2: The Spread of Corruption

    Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God’s just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants– except for Christ alone–not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.

    Article 3: Total Inability

    Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

  65. Believe says:

    …Yes, I need to read more…point well taken. I assume from some reading that is generally and simplistically what he believed.

    I try not to follow another man’s interpretations (at first)…and challenge my preconceived notions with less bias (I already bring enough baggage and bias in…and try not to add to it until later in the process…then I find others in history had the same questions and came to a variety of “answers”….nothing new under the sun)

  66. Reuben says:

    To the article, I am dumbfounded. I contend that these witch hunts have resulted in a catastrophic division and contention in the Body of Christ. I had a long conversation with someone who was regurgitating such information almost word for word as the above stated article, a disciple of one who lurks here, and my response was eventually harsh, but necessary:

    If you seek to define people who preach Christ and Him crucified as wolves, then you went way around the apostles doctrine a long time ago. Let me explain. The apostles preached Christ and Him crucified. Yet you call people who preach Christ and Him crucified “wolves”. Now I am not following you. So again, I contend that if you seek to define people who preach Christ and Him crucified as wolves, you have not only added your own agenda to the apostles teachings, but you denied their premise to begin with.

    You stand guilty of being just like a patriarch who developed the perfect Law of God into a religion, which was hated by Jesus Christ to the degree that He had to explain to these parasites that they had made the Word of God as of no effect. Consider that every knee will bow before the God of the universe Who hated idolatry and religion, and that God of the universe explained why in detail over and over again.

    You see, in Jesus day, there were people who were so bold as to proclaim that the God of the universe could not heal on the Sabbath, which the God of the universe did twice to drive home the point. Today, those same parasites, lets call them wolves, do the same thing. They say they have a discernment that surpasses that of the Holy Scripture just like the Pharisees, and go so far as to say that a man cannot preach Christ and Him crucified unless they pass the Lighthouse Trails tin foil hat test or whatever. So quite a bit like the wolves of Jesus’ day, modern wolves tout a lock on something that only a limited few have obtained, and they feel as if it is their duty to police all activity just like the Pharisees, and then stand in judgement to the point of saying, “Hey, its better we take out Calvary Chapel than our whole nation be destroyed by this blasphemy…” It all happened before. Thats the funny thing. If you get smart enough to realize that I am drawing a similarity between YOU and a Pharisee, I am glad you caught on.

    Now let me make it clear to you, according to the Word of God, you will be judged for your judgement because you demand that a spec be removed denying the plank of your own. You call people who preach Christ and Him crucified “wolves”. If that is not attacking and tearing down the Kingdom, I don’t know what is.

    I really hope thats clear enough.

  67. Michael says:

    Believe,

    I posted two Scriptures that clearly and unequivocally state the position of fallen man.

    There are more…
    Ҧ And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
    in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
    among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
    (Ephesians 2:1–3 ESV)

    ““None is righteous, no, not one;
    no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.””
    (Romans 3:10–12 ESV)

    I feel no need to speculate past what the Scripture clearly says.
    You want to ‘prove” a concept that I do not find anywhere in Scripture.
    Again, that’s your prerogative.

  68. Michael says:

    Good job, Reuben!

    You’re a little feisty today… 😉

  69. Believe says:

    I think you believe Total Depravity is something real close to this:

    http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Total-Depravity-of-Man/

  70. Believe says:

    Reuben said, “every knee shall bow…”

    Amen to that. So much deep truth in that one statement in the Bible…and a confirmation of “will”…IMO.

  71. Michael says:

    I gave you the outline at 1:30.

  72. Michael says:

    Believe,

    Before you take scriptures out of context (as you did Reubens), deal with the clear texts I have already presented.
    How do you respond to (what they at least appear to) clearly state?

    That’s how theology is done honestly.

    I have to pick up Try shortly, so I won’t be here much longer.

  73. Believe says:

    Michael…not arguing that no man is righteous…save Christ.

    It is the issue of “will”…and whether a man responds to the calling of God…either yes…or no…and has a part in that. When a man “bows his knee”…does God force it pre-Judgment…or does God (in His Sovereignty) give man the opportunity to “bow” his knee pre-Judgment.

    The “every knee shall bow…” either before Judgment….or as a result of the Judgment.

    We know definitively and without equivocation or disagreement that “every knee shall bow”….and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

  74. Believe says:

    Will do Michael…I’ll respond to each…make sure to check it later. I don’t have an agenda…other than to get answers to questions…and question the answers.

  75. Michael says:

    Believe,

    The passage is stating an eschatological reality that all things will be put under Christ’s feet at the end.

    It’s not talking about the will at all…but about the supremacy of Christ.

  76. London says:

    No one took up my question about why God was looking to “trick” Ahab in the first place. That doesn’t seem very “God like” does it?
    So, God’s sitting around up in heaven trying to figure out how to fool Ahab and an angel shows up and says, “hey, I know…we’ll get the prophets to lie” and God says “hey yeah! great idea” then sends a “lying spirit” upon the prophets?!?!

    That really doesn’t seem odd to anyone else?

    Were they Godly prophets in the first place or were they the prophets of Baal? Doesn’t say anywhere I could see.
    How are we supposed to “test the spirits” to see if they are from God if God can send “lying spirits”. Then we’re just guessing aren’t we?

  77. ( | o )====::: says:

    we are left with Jesus to follow, each other to encourage, and wet blankets like the MorielMonkey to ignore as he chatters and screeches and throws poo at the people who are getting something done… 😉

  78. Michael says:

    London,

    It’s an Old Testament anthropomorphism.

    We (God’s people) are told to test the spirits and we’re told that the Holy Spirit will answer us with wisdom and discernment.

    The world is subject to all manner of evil…

  79. Another Voice says:

    Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.
    ——————————————————————————————-
    Of these sixty words, I am in complete agreement. Yet, I am not a Calvinist. The only issue I have is using ‘regenerating’ as an adjective to describe the Holy Spirit in the context of this sentence. Not that I don’t agree the Spirit regenerates, of course He does.

    The whole issue for me is whether regeneration by the Spirit precedes the willingness to return to God, or if the Spirit’s activity to bring a man to that willingness is a different activity than regeneration. It is an act of the Spirit without question (not man), as so many verses declare, including many listed by Michael above.

    Since there is only one verse in the New Testament that uses the word in context to salvation (Titus 3:5) I choose to tread lightly before dogmatically stating when the Spirit regenerates a man. I preach a free offer of salvation to all who would believe.

  80. ( | o )====::: says:

    sorry my post is so out of context, i’m a tad cranky at the constant and withering posturing that these ODM’s do while it’s clear that it’s simply best to ignore them and be true to what one believes Jesus would have them do each day.

    And sad to lose Michael Spencer.

  81. Erunner says:

    Where is Christ glorified here? This is more about worldly psychology than growth in Christ. It offers false hope to the lost. A perfect example of no accountability and a system run amok!

  82. Michael says:

    “Of these sixty words, I am in complete agreement. Yet, I am not a Calvinist.”

    That’s one of the points I tried to make earlier.
    Arminius and Wesley held to total depravity.
    They solved the issue of how one can be regenerated differently than Calvin, but on this point they were somewhat in agreement.

    “I preach a free offer of salvation to all who would believe.”

    So do I…so did Calvin.

  83. Another Voice says:

    I know you do brother.

  84. Michael says:

    Erunner got me… 🙂

  85. Michael says:

    Another massive earthquake just hit Indonesia…7.8

  86. Erunner says:

    Michael, I love this stuff! Pray for me! 🙂

  87. ( | o )====::: says:

    7.8?!? WOW!

  88. Dusty says:

    Michael said, “…and I wonder what we’re left with.”

    We are left with hope….hope that God knows, God hears, God listens, and God moves…hope that no matter what happens here, our home is where we will find true peace, true love and true happiness.

  89. Dusty says:

    London asked,”How are we supposed to “test the spirits” to see if they are from God if God can send “lying spirits”. Then we’re just guessing aren’t we?”

    not guessing…we have the Bible….how does the instruction of the ‘spirit’ line up with what God has told us in His word?

  90. Dusty says:

    London, the Expositor’s Commentary says:

    v15-23 At first Micaiah told Ahb to ‘attack and be victorious’ (v15). Ahab sensed the sarcasm and demanded the truth (v16).

    Micaiah answered with two parabolic visions.

    In the first Israel was likened to shepherdless sheep scattered on the mountains, which must find their own way home (v17).

    In the second Micaiah described a heavenly scene in which the Lord and His hosts discussed the best way to get Ahab to Ramoth Gilead so that he might fall in battle (vv19-23).

    It was decided that false prophets, possessed by a lying spirit, would feed Ahab’s ego by assuring him of victory in the projected battle.

  91. Another Voice says:

    Erunner got me too. I think the video is tweeking psycology too.

    1) The way he perks up when Larry mentions his father.

    2) The smoking pencil trying to write all the stuff down

    3) At the end, “I’m confused” when Larry is just fine.

    That one was always a favorite.

    Now, ‘where is my hairbrush?’

  92. Dusty says:

    The king of Israel did not want a man of God to tell him what the Lord would have him do…he wanted men who would agree with what he already planned , purposed in his heart to do. These men had the king’s job of prophet, but they were false prophets…their job was to pump up the king and agree with all his whims.

  93. Dusty says:

    So it seems that Micaiah was giving a visual to the king…trying to get him to understand that yes 400 ‘prophets’ were agreeing with him , but the were not hearing their message from God. And maybe that if the king continued to lead his people to destruction, that he himself would be destroyed.

  94. I haven’t been able to sign on for days! has anyone else has a similar problem…did you guys miss me? (Steve who?…yeah right)

  95. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Here or .com?

  96. brian says:

    I had to ponder where am I, first I will truly miss Internet Monk, I hate to use the term but I resonated with what he wrote. He is not much older then me, he has a family which I do not in the natural sense. I guess my students are my family so to speak. He was one reason I looked long and hard at the more traditional faiths, the evangelical cult I cant take, but I have come to the conclusion that the cult is in my own head, not in reality. I think Michael was a focal point for separating people from programs.

    I even believed I could be part of the body in some of his writings. I was not close but he will be missed. There have been several deaths in my own family the last few months and grief has troubled me. Take care all God bless.

  97. Nonnie says:

    Yes, Steve we missed you. Do you feel better now? 🙂

  98. BrianD says:

    “I didn’t always agree with Michael, or even always get along with him.”

    I didn’t know you two had met?

  99. SPQR says:

    “I know you’re right…and I know my fathers in the faith would be gracious…but I want to kick someones ass so bad it’s making me sick.”

    Michael…You’re ” fathers in the faith” would extend all the grace they extended to Servetus in Geneva…and he didn’t even call Calvin a servant of Satan.

    So go on big mouth…Kick Prasch’s touche.
    If you’re father Calvin felt justified burning men for disagreeing with his theology,what do you have to fear…you could be doing the work of God right??

    But take heed…I think Prasch could take you…

  100. Michael says:

    SPQR,

    Go read some real history, learn what really happened, and come back and talk with some knowledge.

    You are obviously ignorant of both history and theology, but that’s ok.

    It’s like a plague in your circles.

  101. SPQR says:

    Ah yes..If only I had the benefit of the vaunted “Reformed Theology”, my eyes would be healed.

    Better to to be a partaker of a plague of ignorance,that be so arrogant as to charge God with being the author of evil..The inevitable product of Calvinisms bent view of sovereignty ..

    Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the Calvinists and Armenians
    ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    P.S. Let me know if you and Jacob tangle..I’d like to watch, although the outcome would be predestined…. : /

  102. Michael says:

    Arminian…it’s spelled A_R_M_I_N_I_A_N

  103. Em says:

    😆 probably need to be more righteous than most of those Armenians too – dunno

    God keep

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