When Doves Cry

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329 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    Comments are open.
    Please be civil and gracious.

  2. covered says:

    Well done. This is a very sad story. So if Brian is going to strictly be the Pastor of Costa Mesa, any thoughts on who will oversee the “movement”? Nobody buys the “were all independent” churches. Even though I agree 100% that there will be a three way split, there will still be someone named to call the shots.

  3. Xenia says:

    I hope everyone here with opinions are remembering to pray daily for Pastor Chuck that his ending be painless and peaceful and that he be surrounded by his family in a peaceful way and that he can go to God with a clear conscience (which I would pray for everyone). Pastor Chuck has been a positive influence in my life and I thank God for him.

  4. Michael says:

    There will be no one overseeing the movement.
    There is no one with the ability to bring all the factions together…at least no one who wants the job.
    They will all be independent…

  5. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I’ve had similar medical procedures as Smith and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
    Prayers are the proper answer here.

  6. Michael says:

    In reality, they really are all independent now.
    No one with any authority cares what goes on in the local churches at this point.

  7. covered says:

    Michael, would all of the current CCCM assets go to family or be in Brian’s charge?

  8. Michael says:

    covered,

    That is a great question and one I don’t have good answers for at this writing.
    I do know that at this juncture some would remain in the family…thus, the struggle for control.

  9. covered says:

    I agree which is why I believe that someone (if not Brian), will have to be designated by Chuck to run, divide, invest or distribute. There is a lot of money that goes out to missionaries and other projects. What a mess.

    Xenia, I hope that others do realize that praying for Chuck is that right thing to do.

  10. Ricky Bobby says:

    Where would the million bucks for a Bordersen bribe-out come from? I’m guessing it would have come from church donor monies, no? These guys don’t have money independent from raising the funds from little old ladies and hard-working families who “give it to Jesus!”, no?

  11. Ricky Bobby says:

    I pray that Chuck passes peacefully and without suffering, though it sounds pretty bad at this point having to walk around with an oxygen tube just to live.

  12. Steve Wright says:

    Why would assets owned by a 501(c)3 “go” to any private individual because Chuck is no longer alive?

    The point of a 501(c)3 is that those assets remain unaffected at death unless the Board of that 501(c)3 votes to sell/give/transfer (whatever) those assets – which of course is subject to various laws of the land?

  13. Michael says:

    RB,

    Hard to say exactly where the cash would come from.
    My guess would be through KWAV or the Word For Today…but that is pure speculation and should be taken as such.

  14. Michael says:

    Steve,

    The question would be over control over those assets.

  15. Steve Wright says:

    Michael, agreed. And that is how it should be framed because, as you no doubt know, there are those who think that PERSONAL ownership rests with the person who happens to be the President of the 501(c)3. And that is of course false – but it is repeated over and over.

  16. covered says:

    There are some other big ticket items besides KWAVE and WFT. Arrowhead? Murrietta? Logos build. etc. etc.

  17. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve W. said, “there are those who think that PERSONAL ownership rests with the person who happens to be the President of the 501(c)3. And that is of course false – but it is repeated over and over.”

    Steve, who do you think owns the assets of TBN? Someone besides the Crouches?

    There’s technicality and there’s reality.

  18. Honest question – what does this article hope to accomplish?

    We have an alleged buyout…which wasn’t accepted. No news there.

    Then we have total speculation about what will happen when Chuck dies. Right?

    Chuck won’t be the first pastor of a big church to die. That trail has been blazed many times before. I could point you to dozens of times that it turned out terrible, and dozens more where it turned out good.

    God is in control, right?

  19. Ricky Bobby says:

    Folks repeat it over and over b/c the truth is that in many 501c3 corps, it is the family and people who control the company who “own” the stuff in a practical sense, though they have legal protection and an excuse and cover in the legal sense.

  20. Michael says:

    Josh,

    This isn’t about a “big church”.
    This is about the end of a historical era.
    The only comparable event would be the passing of Aimee Semple McPherson after founding the Foursquare church.
    There are so many questions to be asked and lessons to learn from this that it staggers the mind.

  21. covered says:

    Josh, my first Jesus experience was with CC. My kids went to CC High School. I sat under Chuck Smith Jr. for the first 3 years of my Christian walk and other Calvary’s for several years after that. Then I saw for myself the damage and abuse that this tribe has inflicted on many including my family and myself. I feel as though I have a vested interest in what goes down. I now pastor a church that was born because the CC pastor I worked for thought that chasing married women was perfectly ok. The powers to be in Costa Mesa and Bob Grenier agreed that chasing married women when you have 20+ years in as a Sr. Pastor isn’t a sin. Other than that, I really don’t care.

  22. Ricky Bobby says:

    Michael, agreed. We saw the beginning and the end of a new denomination and new major flavor in Christianity*. It is historical and not trivial in the least.

  23. Maybe a cage match could hash this all out.
    See who comes out holding the CC Championship belt over their heads.
    Ohhh…two men enter one man leaves.

    Sorry, this all seems a bit melodramatic to us Baptists. But, by all means continue.

  24. What era? If it is a move of God, Chuck dying won’t stop it. If it isn’t, it’s just another mega-church pastor passing away. Do you think chuck is the most influential pastor of the last 100 years? Come on. He’s done great, but it isn’t without precedent.

    So what lessons are there that we need to learn that can be taught through TMZ journalism?

  25. Sorry, I shouldn’t have thrown out the TMZ comment. These vague articles with secret sources really irritate me.

  26. Michael says:

    Chuck Smith is most certainly one of the most important historical figures in American evangelicalism in the last hundred years…one of the top three or four.
    Calvary Chapel has 1500 churches here and another 500 around the world, plus they have influenced the style, music, and liturgy of the American church since the late 60’s.

    I’ll talk about the lessons we learn and the questions we need to ask in a later article.

  27. So again then, what is the purpose of THIS article?

  28. Steve Wright says:

    Michael, would all of the current CCCM assets go to family or be in Brian’s charge?
    ——————————————————
    That was the question I responded to. It is poorly worded in my opinion.

    The assets of any 501(c)3 remain the assets of that 501(c)3.

    Now, does the Board have power over those assets? Of course? Can they bonus large sums to people as they will? Of course? In doing so, there are taxes that need to be paid, votes taken and so forth.

    If someone privately owned an income-generating asset, like a radio station or a conference center, then those profits would go directly into that person’s pocket – just like one of you can own a rental condo or something.

    RB is chief at blurring these things in the name of “reality” – but legal terms and such still have meaning when communication is a goal. And since this is Michael’s article, I figured it was worth stating so at least HIS readers would see the difference.

    I’m done now – unless someone has a legit question about how assets are controlled in a corporate structure

  29. Top 100 , maybe. He’s been a strong pastor and influenced a lot of guys out west. But no need to go overboard.

  30. Xenia says:

    Outside of California I would wager a guess that most Christians have never heard of Pastor Chuck Smith. He has influenced almost every evangelical church in the country, though, by popularizing the “praise team” style of worship, which varies from a guy with a guitar to a full on rock band with smoke machines and a light show, such as the one my son plays for. This all originated with Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, or at the very least, was popularized by it.

  31. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’ve been following this group for years online…to some I am one of the curators of it’s history.
    While my reasons for writing have changed somewhat, my position as someone with the sources and resources to write this kind of an article haven’t.
    There are many who follow this blog who are interested in what is actually happening, what the transition actually looks like and where it’s going.
    It matters.
    It matters today and it will matter to historians many years from now.
    I’m sorry it offends you.

  32. no one of any consequence says:

    When push comes to film I pray that David Di Sabatino will be fair and objective.

  33. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Exactly who else in the last fifty years has founded a movement with this many churches and this much influence on the broader church culture?
    No one, that’s who.

  34. Xenia says:

    I have to agree w/ Michael that CC has had an enormous influence on the evangelical culture.

  35. erunner says:

    I left a few comments on FB concerning “sources.” As far as the article itself I admit to bristling when I read of Skip Heitzig’s standing within CC after all that was documented and went down in ABQ. I remember The Stipe Report and much more. This is sad to read no matter one’s allegiances.

  36. Michael says:

    Erunner,

    His status is with one group, not the whole.

  37. If this is a historic article, I’m sorry Michael, but its garbage. Who are these sources who are using you as a human shield? As it stands, this is nothing but gossip and speculation.

    My question was not about whether or not Chuck is important, I agree he is. My question is what does THIS article accomplish? If it is about documenting history, then you have to name your sources.

    If it is about generating gossip about a celebrity preacher, then leave it as is.

    And if your sources won’t be named because they are afraid they’ll lose a job, then how exactly are they any better than the guys we are discussing in this article?

  38. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’m sorry you think it’s garbage.
    I made no ethical judgments about anyone in the article…I simply reported the situation.
    There will be more than a few who agree with you, but more than a few also think this was an important article at this time.

  39. covered says:

    well said erunner, very sad. It’s time that something happen and changes be made. The Bob Grenier’s in the movement need to be dealt with. There was much good that came from the movement but it’s time to deal with the good old boys who abuse their position.

  40. Michael says:

    covered,

    Lesson #1.
    Nobody is going to deal with anybody.
    Period.
    We simply have to stop pretending otherwise.

  41. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve W. said, “Now, does the Board have power over those assets? Of course? Can they bonus large sums to people as they will? Of course?”

    I didn’t blur any lines, I just recognize what you state above…which is similar to “ownership” just by a different legal name.

    Here is an example of when this similar-to-ownership privilege is abused according to CNN:

    “(CNN) — The worst charity in America operates from a metal warehouse behind a gas station in Holiday, Florida.
    Every year, Kids Wish Network raises millions of dollars in donations in the name of dying children and their families.
    Every year, it spends less than 3 cents on the dollar helping kids.
    Most of the rest gets diverted to enrich the charity’s operators and the for-profit companies Kids Wish hires to drum up donations.
    In the past decade alone, Kids Wish has channeled nearly $110 million donated for sick children to its corporate solicitors. An additional $4.8 million has gone to pay the charity’s founder and his own consulting firms.

    Among the findings (of an investigation by CNN):
    — The 50 worst charities in America devote less than 4% of donations raised to direct cash aid. Some charities gave even less. Over a decade, one diabetes charity raised nearly $14 million and gave about $10,000 to patients. Six spent no cash at all on their cause.
    — Even as they plead for financial support, operators at many of the 50 worst charities have lied to donors about where their money goes, taken multiple salaries, secretly paid themselves consulting fees or arranged fund-raising contracts with friends. One cancer charity paid a company owned by the president’s son nearly $18 million over eight years to solicit funds. A medical charity paid its biggest research grant to its president’s own for-profit company.”

    I’m saying, again, that there is “blurring” going on alright, but it is by many so-called charitable orgs including Churches who control the money and assets and use them to the benefit of family, friends, etc and very little to actually help the poor and needy, etc.

    Personally, I think most of Calvary Chapel’s Jesus Money that is raised goes to actually help anyone in a practical manner. The vast majority funds man kingdoms, nice buildings, radio shows, conferences, trips, salaries, cars, etc. I’d wager that a scant percentage of the money helps widows and orphans.

  42. Why won’t the sources just tell it themselves?

    That has always puzzled me about these articles.

    With all supposedly falling down around them it sounds like this would be a perfect time to show a little guts.
    Someone who has to use a surrogate for their stories really doesn’t sound like they can be trusted all that much to me.

    Do they fear men so much? The good life a little too good to risk a bit?

    Bah, that is what makes me not like these articles.

    I know you believe in everything you are doing here, Michael. This is no doubt about you.

    But these guys feeding you info lack conviction at the least and and honesty at the worst.

  43. I’ll bow out of the thread so the rest of you guys can have some fun. It just so happens that my name has been on this site hundreds of time over the last several years, and I have pointed friends here to read articles that I found helpful. For those reading I feel the need to let it be known that I do not agree with this type of gossipy, secret source, insinuation.
    Anyone who knows me also knows that I will call someone out if need be, but won’t be couched in secrecy, speculation, and half-truth.

    I wish we would have gotten a Things I Think today. Catch y’all later.

  44. covered says:

    Michael, the truth will come out about the rogue pastor’s that you and I both know. There will be consequences. There are those like Skip and Bob G who will realize that they have more enemies than friends who fly the dove. Just my opinion.

  45. victorious says:

    Josh. What happens in the big picture of CCCM and CCA affects flesh and blood people bought with the blood of Jesus. Although I am not attending nor ministering in. CC fellowship in this season, I have been intimately involved with people and leaders in 6 CC fellowships and still continue to be involved with people within or have been within the CC realm.

    For that reason I care about what Michael has to write and report.

  46. Not the issue Vic. Obviously i care what Michael has to write, because I come here to read it everyday.

  47. Michael says:

    victorious,

    Thank you…and this applies to the thousands directly involved with the disposition of this church.

  48. Michael says:

    I will say this for my sources.
    They care very deeply about the people and the churches affected here.
    They have agonized over every word written here with me.
    Many also have families to support and protect…and while they care, they have no desire to become martyrs for the cause, much less so their families and friends.
    This is big business, big money, and big consequences at play here.
    You all may be of such high moral fiber that it wouldn’t trouble you, but I hope you never have to make that choice.

  49. Well, in that case…

    They are cowards of the worst kind.

    And no, none of us ever have to make ethical decisions that will directly affect our livelihood. No, never.

    And to the cowards playing politics and using Michael as a human shield, I assume you are reading because you are agonizing over these posts with Michael, I have no respect for you. The stuff about big business speaks volume, and I’ll assume you have your reward. You are acting in a dishonest manner, and you know this. I also have a feeling you are agonizing much less than Michael, as you have no skin in the game.

  50. victorious says:

    I will say this much. Brian Brodersen cares about the people of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa.

    Ephesus ( the flagship church) was rebuked and called upon to radically repentant because they had left the first love of caring for His people and caring for each other.

    There is no movement without a fervent love,for one another period. If the flagship church focuses upon caring for the beloved children as well,as the least and the lost in the midst of all the other inherited chaos then they have set the model Jesus wants. A model that can be replicated and contextualized to any cultural,social or economic environment.

  51. All about the money, the houses…not about the people and the churches at all.

    Dude, I have had so little money all my life that I could lose some and that would be fine.
    But, when you have so much that you fear losing it and the things that come with it/
    Well, we all know what money is too you then.
    It is truly better not to have much in material things to clear perspective.
    Guess this economy makes CC a sweet place to ride it out and not have to get your hands dirty like the rest of us Joe’s.
    This is exactly why people distrust people from megachurch ministries. Too much money involved.
    Thank God for smaller CC’s with faithful pastors. That will actually be of help to people and churches. Not those who cowered behind you, Michael.

    Note: None of this is aimed at you Michael, but at those hiding behind you in the hopes that they might grow a pair.\

    Night all.

  52. I have only one problem with this. Whoever thinks they are in charge do not give a damn about the people who attend CCCM. The least they could do is ask – who do you want Brian or Skip.

    Maybe everyone wants Skip … done deal.

    I remember when Skip came to Ocean Hills and they had to contract buses to bring the people in for the first month. People love their celebrities.

    However, one half of the existing church left immediately leaving parking spaces from the groupies and the buses were no longer needed.

  53. Ricky Bobby says:

    Josh, in the past I’d amen your 7:15pm. Then I went through the meat grinder for sticking my neck out for others. It would have killed most people, luckily the intense abuse growing up made me resilient and quite a grinder. Unfortunately, I have a wife and kids and others around me who have been affected.

    I now understand why these sources would remain anonymous. I get it now. I don’t necessarily think they’re “cowards of the worst kind”…I think they are being wise and don’t want to bring hell down on others they care about.

    If I had a choice to go back in time, I don’t know that I’d have stuck my neck out due to the toll it has taken on others close to me…but it is what it is and I’m in it for the long haul and will fight to the end, I passed the Rubicon and there’s no turning back, I’ll finish the battle.

    However, others are wise, IMO, to keep their heads down, while still getting the truth out there.

  54. Michael says:

    People have no idea how vicious this can get.
    I do.

  55. It’s either worth fighting for or its not. The level of difficulty is not part of the equation. If its worth fighting for, you count the cost and go to war. You don’t find someone else to take the bullets.

  56. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Easy to say when it’s not your kids that will go hungry.

  57. This kind of vicious?

    Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?
    If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. (2 Corinthians 11:23-30, ESV)

    Or is it vicious like what Syrian or Egyptian Christians are going through now?

    I look at what our brothers in other countries go through and it makes me ashamed of what American Christians are like. Money is truly the root of many kind of evils and American Christianity has roots growing all through it.

  58. Michael says:

    Derek,

    That is also true…

  59. victorious says:

    And Paul had no wife or children he was tasked with to provide for lest he be branded an infidel concerning the faith.Yet, Paul did not blast those who had wives and children but argued for their provision, even though they did not suffer as Paul did.

  60. Let me tell you something, some of the closest times my wife and I have had was when we were living close to the edge. For another month or so, this is actually one of those times.
    Moving from South Dakota to Mississippi tapped us out.
    My wife’s first check finally hit this Friday, but delinquent bills will eat that up
    Our cell phones are down right now, the fridge has not enough food in there right now.

    I am one of the lucky ones. I have a job and my wife has a job. We will be better in a few months.

    A lot of people are living like this right now
    .
    Many people in the churches you attend.

    Now, don’t take this as some stand against pastors and ministry people getting paid.
    It isn’t that.
    But, a story of a megachurch ministry professional (which I am assuming by the access these people have that this is their status) losing his job for making a stand for the flock and the church would rather hearten me towards whatever this story is supposed to be about.
    But, when I am told the same people, because of business and money are afraid it makes me think that they have little sympathy for the flock that has to go through bad times.

    Not garnering much sympathy from me there.

    Times are hard, time to get down and dirty and sleep out in the fields with the sheep!

  61. Ricky Bobby says:

    Well, most people are cowards, the vast majority. It is what it is.

  62. I don’t know whether to be angry or sad. Sad for Pastor Chuck and what may happen with CCCM and CC as a whole. Angry that anyone could be so devious, or at the very least ignorant, as to think that Skippy should take over. There’s a sure-fire plan for running the whole thing into the ground.

  63. Michael says:

    I no longer have anything to lose, because it’s all gone already.
    If I did, I would not risk anything that would harm my child.
    Call me a coward, call me what you will, but I wouldn’t stick his neck out for anyones cause.

  64. Michael,
    Golly, even Paul fell back on a trade. Maybe people going into ministry need to have a trade to fall back on in case of things like this.

    See, it is made to look like they will lose everything and be on the streets begging for food.
    Is that actually going to happen?
    Or is it losing the house and having to downsize?
    Only being able to have one vehicle and not the truck for the son?
    Is it all about saving face?

    I think the last one is one of the strongest.
    In America, if you aren’t moving up and making money, then that equals to failure and shows weakness to the world.
    Well, I am weak.
    Never been able to really gain ground in life it seems.
    But, I am happier, I think, than many I see with a lot of money.
    They have to worry about how they are going to keep it and that seems to occupy a lot of their time.

    Thank you, this whole conversation has made me realize even more how blessed I am to be weak and poor.

  65. Michael says:

    When you’re in your late forties to early sixties it’s a little late to find a trade.
    I know what it’s like to try to get a job in your mid fifties…and it’s not fun.
    Thinking about most of the people who are my sources…they are not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

  66. Xenia says:

    I imagine these people would put their jobs on the line for Christ but not for the future of Calvary Chapel.

  67. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Exactly.

  68. Xenia says:

    But on the other hand, if you are an employee of a church and you observe a thing or two and you tell a media outlet (the PhxP in this case) the things you observed or heard that were told to you in private…. that’s not especially virtuous.

    All I know is, none of this is any of my business. I am sorry that Pastor Chuck is suffering so much because I love him. Other than that…. none of my business.

  69. I guess so then. More melodrama than substance, like I first surmised.
    Sort of like a soap opera.
    Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    I still say…

    “Two men enter, one man leaves!” 😉

  70. You have to be in the inner inner circle to know not only who comes and goes into pastor Chuck’s house, but also what is said.

    I think that would describe Judas. Perhaps that insider should just remove himself from being that close to power if he can;t keep a confidence.

    But I am with Xenia-not my fight… but I do like to jack my jaws. 🙂

  71. Xenia says:

    I imagine these people would put their jobs on the line for Christ but not for the future of Calvary Chapel.<<<

    On the other other hand, if you are faithful in small things you will be faithful in bigger things.

    I don't admire Quislings.

  72. Steve Wright says:

    There are two important Scriptural truths, and they are related. First is that God cares about the motivation behind the action – and nobody really knows that except God (even the person can sometimes not fully know).

    Second, we are not to judge when we don’t have all the information – like motivation. Of course, some sins make motivation irrelevant, they are always wrong.

    But one action can be just and noble, and another action can be sinful – depending on the motivation behind it.

    I’ve watched more people sin in judging without knowledge than I care to count.

  73. brian says:

    You know when I got the left food to fellowship right up the backside it was vicious and hurtful. But the people who did it were not vicious or hurtful that would require they cared that much about me. I became part of the invisible people, they pass you have known you for decades and act like you are not even there. It is the most amazing thing to view. I mean people in the world would call me a so and so cuss me out mock and then that was it they moved on I moved on. Only in the imaginary land of evangelicalvill does this kind of childish behavior is exhibited and given divine fiat. Pastor Smith lived and is still living high on the hog, hes he is dying and is suffering, stand in line, I watched four members of my family die of that crap, long years of suffering, the Weezing , the bile coming out their mouth, the vomiting, the colostomy bags, the adult briefs, the hallucinations, the shear fear and terror and the death rattles that shake the bed and one’s soul. That does not count the students I watched die and stayed with for days and weeks. Not bragging but I can count on zero fingers the real world Christian response and prayers, it was basically blank off and stop bugging us, which I never did but it was said to make sure.

    Here this guy that basically rules by hidden decree so as to not be responsible for his edicts such as not letting reformed in the pastoral staff or even the congregation. The voodoo numerology mumbo jumbo of the return of Christ. Being on the same stage with Kathryn Kuhlman and smiling that big grandfather smile while this woman rants on knowing she is a bit off center. No offense but come on people watch her on line. Then how Lonnie Frisbee wore out his welcome and all that Jesus radical hippy stuff gave way to kingdom building and huge paychecks, but we all still dress really cool. Give me an honest fire breathing kjonly ism nutcase any day of the week.

    The worst how he treated my friend Alex, that just ticked me off, he could have come down from on high and just made a phone call one phone call. Things may not have changed but that would have been one drop in the river that could have changed the direction of the flow. But no. I listened to that show, I know Alex can come off hard maybe even crazy, so can I. Pastor Smith has reaped many blessings so has his family, for instance he will die flush, my mother died in debt and it made her so ashamed and weep many hours because she did not leave enough money to die flush. Those that have not seen family members burdened by the debt they may leave behind do not understand. To this day I know my father let himself die because he did not want to be a burden and all he had was a lousy 10 K life insurance policy to leave behind. He waited until my mother left for a rest and he willed himself to death, it was the darnedest thing the nurse on duty ever saw in similar situations. I saw his face it was grimace and in horrid distortion.

    I mean there was some understanding on the part of the faith community for say, maybe a day, but after that it was move on all is normal. I did, I can say this I have never taken one day off for grief, I used grief days for business issues but never just to grieve, I cant. I learned that at church, how not to grieve. I learned how to shut up move on and get over it even before it happens. I wont grieve now ever, I bury it deep down in the pits of my stomach. I learned that really well. I am wrong about all this, I miss read alot of what my faith community was trying to do, we talked right past each other. I am just as wrong if not more then they are, I dont even know if they even understand how I think. It all gets twisted up because I dont grieve right.

    Why share all that, because Alex is my friend, as is Michael and it hurts me to see them going through such things. Chuck Smith is not my friend, I dont know him personally, dont really even want to get to know him to be honest. But no I do not wish pain on him, pain like this is horrid and evil. Death is not so evil and I dont even see it as an enemy anymore, merely a curtain parting to another reality. I know it was not suppose to be this way, death came by sin but sometimes it releases a soul from such suffering.

    My favorite line from Jesus of Nazareth where Peter said “Lord Im just a stupid man” when being asked to forgive Matthew. I often pray that, I am so conflicted, so twisted yet so happy I have seen the things I have heard, the voices I have heard sing and the simple gifts I have seen given. Chuck Smith saw some of this on those beaches back in the 70’s but the corporate model took over and the ROI was factored in to each ministry decision. My prayer is like it was when I was very young, Lord let me live well, and let me die well. Thats it.

  74. I’m sad ChuckJr’s dad is sick.

    I’m glad “The Movement” will be impacted by culture and those who are following Jesus and have been glad to be part of an era will continue, faithful to Jesus, not “The Movement”.

    I’m sure there will be those who dig in and insist that things be like “the tent days” but we live in a time of exceeding opportunity, the ability to communicate has never been greater or more immediate, and the ability to be an emerging church in a new millennia is going to be glorious.

    God has this funny way of making all things new, every morning, a fresh 24hrs for each of us to love God and love others.

    What wonderful thing will Jesus do?

    I can’t wait! This is exciting!

  75. brian says:

    Folks I want you to know that is all I had in this post, it was as raw as I can get and I spent a few hours lulling it over I hope it helps and does not come off as my usual clap trap.

  76. Chile says:

    I’m sitting with a man who came to Christ in a Billy Graham crusade almost 65 years ago. He greatly appreciated Graham’s ministry. But even he said he ought to let that ministry die with him. New ones can be birthed, new wine skins.

    Brian, I hear you.

  77. Nonnie says:

    How tragic that a man who loves his family so much is now seeing them fight over his legacy. This must break his heart.

  78. Summer says:

    Brian, I felt what you wrote and it was very sweet. I could tell it was sincerely heartfelt. I’m with you. Thank you.

  79. Ricky Bobby says:

    Thanks brian, love you man.

  80. Mark says:

    No surprise that I agree 100% with Josh. What’s next ? The Kardashians? But Josh misses the obvious point – Michael relishes his access to these “insider” anonymous sources and cannot wait to breathlessly report the latest gossip he is fed. Michael has been reporting the “imminent ” collapse of CC for several years now. I’m still waiting for the mea culpa for all the erroneous facts posted here about CC. This type of article feeds the anti-CC crowd thier raw meat

  81. randallslack says:

    “…would all of the current CCCM assets go to family or be in Brian’s charge?” According to CCCM, all church assets are “irrevocably dedicated to God,” and no one can profit from their sale.

  82. I think that this whole thing shows us that The Jesus Movement corporately and Jesus People individually are and were nothing but frauds.
    When the Jesus People finally came out of their drug induced rebellious fog, they realized to cover their shame they needed to either have are be dictator like leaders.

    They are very much like the Chicago 7 – you youngers will need to Google – they all became bankers and politicians and then had something to hang onto – even blood on their hands.

  83. Andrew says:

    “Why would assets owned by a 501(c)3 “go” to any private individual because Chuck is no longer alive? ”
    ________________________________________________________________________
    The same way a MILLION dollars was offered to an individual. Its not that hard to funnel money in and out of a non profit especially when your board is hand picked.

  84. no one of any consequence says:

    It was dumb of Chuck’s brother to offer him or Brian B money. They already have bundles of that. They should’ve offered reason. They should’ve appealed to scripture. But I guess you can’t offer what you don’t have. You live by the tent you die by the tent.

  85. Nonnie says:

    Come on MLD. I’m from the Jesus movement as are others here. That was quite a broad brush. 🙁

  86. Nonnie, no personal offense intended, but I do think today we are reaping the bad seed sown in the Jesus movement.

    Is there any difference between the hippies who ended up following Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh in Rajneeshpuram Oregon and those hippies who came under the influence of the leaders at Shiloh?

    I think in both cases the commune members were 9ut for drugs, sex and acceptance with a religious covering.

  87. Nonnie says:

    Well I believe the difference is those washed in the blood of the Lamb…… Shiloh was preaching Christ. Doesn’t your Lutheran doctrine preach grace for scoundrels who have cried out for merc and those who have journeyed through some crazy place but end up at the foot of the cross?

  88. Xenia says:

    Is there any difference between the hippies who ended up following Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh in Rajneeshpuram Oregon and those hippies who came under the influence of the leaders at Shiloh?<<<<

    Considerable difference: the first were pagan unbelievers and the latter were Christians. All the difference in the world.

    But having said that, I do believe that the Jesus Movement is the origin of much that is wrong with modern American Christianity. The movement was born out of rebellion: We will not sing those old doctrine-rich hymns, we will not dress respectfully for church, we will adopt the jargon of the surfer/ drug culture. We will not be part of a traditional denomination with a traditional hierarchy that keeps doctrine from going off the rails- we know better! We know better.

  89. Xenia, I’m in full agreement with your #90.

  90. Bob Sweat says:

    MLD doesn’t like hippies. 😉

  91. Ixtlan says:

    Thanks to Alex and brian for sharing their experience. It was much weight and a needed perspective on this thread. Thanks to Michael as well for writing this and keeping the discussion on topic.

    This story is not about the money. Its about the glory and power plays to obtain it. Its about a man who appears to be in his final season who may very well want to take the movement with him. Perhaps that is best. It has been many years since there was a little country church on the edge of town in the OC.

    There is a big difference between “The Calvary Chapel Movement” and the individual Calvary Chapel churches. Just ask any Calvary Chapel pastor.

    I have a friend who is a Calvary Chapel pastor. He has told me he doesn’t like the direction that either camp is going. He will probably let them both go their own way continue to keep his hand to the plow in his own church, and reach out to like-minded pastors who also think for themselves and stopped listening for the pied-piper years ago.

    Xenia is correct in her observation about the bad fruit of the Jesus Movement. I watched the whole thing unfold from beginning to end. And, while Calvary Chapel had a significant role during the Jesus Movement, they were not the only piece of the chessboard.

  92. EricL says:

    Michael,
    Thanks for the drawing the curtain back to show some of the important behind-the-scenes activity at CC. I pray for Chuck and for reconciliation with/between his kids before he dies. I also pray for CC and the movement’s future.
    Please thank the person(s) who risked sharing info that affects (to some extent or other) the hundreds of thousands of people attending CC churches around the world. Personally, I think the CCA will 1) shatter apart, 2) fade away (at least for a season) like the Vineyard after Wimber, or 3) mature into an honest denomination/ association. I hope it will be #3, but Chuck seems to have such a dislike of any organizational structure/accountability that he is leaving it in shambles. At least Wimber set up district and regional oversight pastors and a national director for the Vineyard before he died, and that movement still suffered when he was gone. The CC movement doesn’t even have that much “glue” to keep it in place. I fear rough times ahead for that movement.

  93. Michael says:

    Ixtlan nailed it.

    “There is a big difference between “The Calvary Chapel Movement” and the individual Calvary Chapel churches. Just ask any Calvary Chapel pastor.”

    This and the description that followed…is where the majority of the movement will go.

  94. Michael says:

    EricL,

    Thank you for the kind words.
    The DNA of CC is that of the independent church.
    It can’t adopt a denominational structure any more than I can fly…it’s completely against nature.
    That leaves us with option 1 and 2, with the reality playing out as Ixtlan has written.

  95. erunner says:

    Is there any difference between the hippies who ended up following Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh in Rajneeshpuram Oregon and those hippies who came under the influence of the leaders at Shiloh?<<<<

    I came along in 1976 which was too late to be considered a hippie and at the tail end of The Jesus Movement.

    My girlfriend and soon to be wife and I tried two different churches before landing at CCCM. The first was a Catholic church that she was raised in and we showed up for the Latin Mass. Needless to say that didn't go well and my wife's experience there was not positive so we didn't go back but I got to see her roots.

    The second church was a denominational church. Those up front wore robes and the members were all dressed neatly and were older than us. As all we owned were levis and such we dressed as nice as we could but it was clear folks were uncomfortable around us. The service itself seemed foreign in that I couldn't relate to anything being said during the sermon. Again we didn't return.

    That led us to a concert at CCCM. I was hungry for God and so when my future brother-in-law invited us we jumped at the opportunity to see what had him so excited and me asking questions.

    That night was my divine appointment as I heard and understood the Gospel being presented to me for the first time in my life. God's presence filled that place and as I listened to this new style church music and the message presented that night I responded by going forward and saying a sinner's prayer having my life turned upside down as God worked in my heart and placed a hunger for HIM within me. A few months later I was baptized at Pirate's Cove.

    God used me to reach many in our families and they for the most part are still walking with and serving God.

    I had no clue I was part of something historic and new until later. I've heard about Shiloh and am aware of this guy that was up in Oregon who wasn't a believer to begin with but what I encountered in no way resembled any of that stuff. It was an amazing time that won't be duplicated and all we can do is wait and see how things play out. Meanwhile God is alive and doing well while many of us struggle to get it right.

  96. covered says:

    Keep drinking the kool aid Mark…

  97. Andrew says:

    I am not sure there is a movement any more. And if there is, is it a movement towards God or a movement away from God? If the movement continues in the direction of celebrity pastors and Moses Model (so called benevolent dictators), I would caution that apostasy is right around the corner. I admire so much of CC and their love and faithfulness to the Bible but can’t for the life of me figure out why they ignore, if not rebel against the ecclesiastical model Jesus set up for His church which is not one that resembles a business CEO with no accountability. This one blows my mind and is insulting to the intelligence. Repentance of this by even a few of the shining stars would go a long way I would imagine in reconciliation to those they have hurt.

  98. Which ecclesiastical model did JEsus set up?

  99. Oh No says:

    Ixtlan nailed it. Yep!

  100. When I said “Is there any difference between the hippies who ended up following Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh in Rajneeshpuram Oregon and those hippies who came under the influence of the leaders at Shiloh?

    I was speaking before they went in – they were the same group, some went to Rajneeshpuram and some went to Shiloh … both for the same purpose and I am sure that they easily traveled back and forth between the two – many not discerning any difference… and most have probably fallen away from both –

    although there may be many divine yogis today who had their start in Oregon. 😉

  101. Andrew says:

    Which ecclesiastical model did JEsus set up?
    ___________________________________________________________

    By way of negation, Certainly not the Moses Model or Business man CEO. Also Jesus is Lord, not some celebrity pastor of a mega church who doesn’t even know the names of most people in their congregation. This is for starters.

  102. Oh No says:

    Josh,

    Do you have any history with Calvary Chapel?

  103. “can’t for the life of me figure out why they ignore, if not rebel against the ecclesiastical model Jesus set up for His church ”

    Andrew, your answer is pretty vague. I bet you every single CC pastor, good and bad, would tell you Jesus is Lord. If you are going to make a comment like the one above, you should at least be able to define this ecclesiastical structure that you speak of.

  104. Oh no, none whatsoever. The first place I ever heard about Calvary Chapel was 2008 on this blog. 90% of what I know about CC also comes from this very blog.

  105. Andrew says:

    Josh,

    Jesus speaks pretty clear about the first will be last and the last will be first, etc…If the big wig CC pastors that are so hung up on the Moses Model would just consider Jesus’ words we would be a lot better off. This is actually pretty simple if the Moses of CC would humble themselves instead of demanding the congregations submission to them.

  106. So “last will be first” was Jesus’ clear ecclesiastical structure?

  107. Andrew says:

    So “last will be first” was Jesus’ clear ecclesiastical structure?
    __________________________________________________________________

    In a way, Yes. For the invisible church. Now of course Jesus also commissioned Paul who spoke about elders, etc…This however, seemed to be more with the visible church that most people speak of when they refer to ecclesiastical. But anyway, I am referring more to the invisible church. At least this is my understanding. I am open for correction though and am no expert.

  108. Now, we’re being a little more realistic. See, up at #99 you made a claim that impugned lots of pastors. Claimed they were disobeying something that Jesus made very clear. Now that you are trying to explain it, maybe you realize that it isn’t that clear to begin with. Most people who never have to deal with such things in the real world don’t understand the complexity inherent in setting up a church governing structure.

  109. Andrew says:

    Josh,

    We have 2 thousands years of church history to gleam wisdom from. Chuck Smith only in the last 40 years or so concocted this bizarre off the wall doctrine called the Moses Model that is a complete train wreck theologically with absolutely no basis in sound biblical understanding and creates a benevolent dictator that runs the entire show with no accountability. This is the problem that needs to be repented of and does not belong in the church.

  110. “We have 2 thousands years of church history to gleam wisdom from.”

    So, which of those structures is the correct one?

    “Chuck Smith only in the last 40 years or so concocted this bizarre off the wall doctrine called the Moses Model”

    Maybe the name, but pastor led churches have been around for at least 200 years in the United States, probably much longer around the world.

  111. Andrew says:

    I have no problem with pastor led churches. I bet you almost all of these churches in the past 200 years or so had membership as well. CC has none. That should tell you something right there if you cared to look.

  112. Membership, as in congregational polity? No, I’m talking about churches founded and ruled mostly by a pastor. That is the Moses Model in a nutshell. It has been around for centuries.

  113. IS church membership part of Jesus’ clear ecclesiastical structure? You got chapter and verse on that?

  114. Andrew says:

    Well I haven’t been around for 200 years to know exactly what was ruled on by the pastor. But I can tell you that it has only been very recently that the role of pastor took on the form of a businessman CEO. This is definitely a new phenomena. And pastor led is not synonymous with Moses Model under any stretch of the the imagination. But apostasy does date back to the beginning so I am sure you can find examples of what ever you are looking for as far back as you like.

  115. Ok then, what it is about the Moses Model that bothers you, and specifically something that did not exist before Calvary Chapel?

  116. I have no idea what to say about any of this. My own recent research has led me to Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel in ways that have surprised me. He is certainly a significant man I am not sure he is as important as those who are in his movement might think . I was just in the South talking about my research into revival, the Jesus Movement and Lonnie Frisbee and I did not find that any of my Christian friends, even some leaders, had ever heard of Chuck Smith. I thought that was interesting.

  117. By the way, I have come to wonder whether any of us would have heard of Chuck Smith if it had not been for Lonnie Frisbee. I wonder if he would have had any influence at all. I strongly suspect not. It would be a good discussion.

  118. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    The Moses Model is pretty outdated.
    There are some that run it, but the majority now have some sort of board oversight.
    In practical terms, it’s no different from most independent churches.
    Independent Baptists almost all some some variation on that theme.

  119. Michael says:

    BD,

    Excellent observation.
    One of the things that will happen when the history of this movement is looked at in the future will be how significant Frisbee and especially, the musicians were in the formation of CC.
    The kids came for the music and the manifestations, not necessarily the preaching.

  120. Andrew says:

    IS church membership part of Jesus’ clear ecclesiastical structure? You got chapter and verse on that?

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Josh, before we go farther, I consider anything Paul wrote also something Jesus endorsed. So just because it may not be in RED letters does not mean to me it was not from Jesus. I believe the entire Bible was inspired by God. And Jesus is God and He commissioned Paul. I just needed tot say that before I discuss farther otherwise I feel we will be creating a false dichotomy from what Paul said and what Jesus said. To me they are in harmony.

  121. I totally agree with that, Andrew. I believe the 66 books of the OLD and New Testaments are all the Word of GOd.

    So, did Paul say church membership was part of God’s chosen ecclesiastical structure?

  122. Reuben says:

    Babs, about a year ago, I discovered that you are probably 100% right about Lonnie.

    In fact, more can be attributed to Kay than Chuck.

  123. Andrew says:

    The Moses Model is pretty outdated.
    There are some that run it, but the majority now have some sort of board oversight.
    In practical terms, it’s no different from most independent churches.
    Independent Baptists almost all some some variation on that theme.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Michael. I don’t know for sure, but I thought that most independent Baptist churches have membership of some sort. I think its highly unusual for any CC to have any membership. And a board that has oversight was the way it always was in CC. The problem was the board members were hand picked by the senior pastor and could be easily fired by the senior pastor. So maybe the term is out dated (Moses Model) but if the reality of no accountability is still there, we are no better off.

  124. Andrew says:

    So, did Paul say church membership was part of God’s chosen ecclesiastical structure?
    ______________________________________________________________________

    It would be better to say, does the Bible as a whole speak of church membership instead of did Paul or did Jesus, etc..

  125. Ok, then, does the Bible say church membership is part of the correct ecclesiastical structure?

  126. Rueben,

    I would love to know what you are referring to. If you have information about this I am sincerely researching the matter. babylonthegreatfallen@yahoo.com

  127. Andrew says:

    Ok, then, does the Bible say church membership is part of the correct ecclesiastical structure?

    ___________________________________________________________________

    Its kind of a silly question. Of course there is membership. Read the book of Acts 2. Over 3000 were added to the church in one day. You can’t be added to something if you are not a member of it.

  128. Oh, so you weren’t talking about membership on a particular church role then?

    Gotcha. Nevermind, Andrew.

  129. Ricky Bobby says:

    I think many more folks have heard of Chuck Smith from the PhoenixPreacher, CC Abuse and the CC Wiki than any other source.

    My blog alone is well on its way to 4 million hits from all over the world.

  130. Andrew says:

    Oh, so you weren’t talking about membership on a particular church role then?
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Josh its kind of like my family. I didn’t go through a formal huge membership ordeal to be a member in my family and I didn’t do it either for membership in my local church. People know my name there and I know theirs. It is not like many mega churches or multi-site churches where the pastors not only doesn’t know most peoples names but doesn’t even know what they look like either. This is the lack of membership that I am referring to that is quite common in CC.

  131. So you are telling me that Peter knew all 3000 of those people personally?

  132. Ricky Bobby says:

    Oooops, my bad, on the way to 5 Million:

    “You’ve had 4069382 desktop hits and 677184 mobile hits in the last 3.2 years”

  133. Ricky Bobby says:

    The Pen is truly mightier than the Sword…though a Sword Pen would be really cool.

  134. So you are telling me that Peter knew all 3000 of those people personally?

    Yes, he called them all Buddy – hey Buddy, ge over here. 😉

  135. “The Jesus Movement” & “Jesus People” were a once vital and culturally relevant rebranding of dispensational which happened without plotting or planning.

    When we, as a generation, chose to identify with “Jesus” and not a brand or denomination we then became “a movement”.

    Some of the iconography became part of a business strategy, when it originated as part of a music brand. It became an actual trademark used by one of the many churches which sprung from the movement.

    Then, one of those churches decided it WAS “the movement” and quickly killed off “The Jesus People Movement”.

    It’s a fascinating study in the evolution of a spontaneous move of God which morphed into a study on branding and the impossibility to reform that which has no central strategic influence beyond the lifespan of a single person.

  136. Ricky Bobby says:

    G, agreed, it is fascinating…and different, enough different to be quite historical and will probably be studied by sociologists etc for many years to come.

  137. Andrew says:

    So you are telling me that Peter knew all 3000 of those people personally?
    ___________________________________________________________ver __

    Guess what, I accepted Peter’s message too and he never met me. Did I ever say Peter was their Pastor?

  138. Andrew, your wiggling around is quite funny.

    So then, what are the qualifications that make up church membership, which according to you is commended by the Bible ?

    The pastor must know you…is that all?

  139. Andrew says:

    So then, what are the qualifications that make up church membership, which according to you is commended by the Bible ?

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Be baptized and believe. That’s it. The pastor didn’t know me when I became a member because we had no pastor at that time. But I can’t imagine anyone being a member of any church who is not some how known and cared for in the local community of the church. It is sad because this happens in mega churches like CC all the time. In the book of Acts the church was one and everyone seemed to be in harmony. Its just common sense that in a community people should know one another and not be strangers.

  140. Ixtlan says:

    @137
    That might be a good topic all on its own.

    I remember there was a latent sense of arrogance way back then toward the traditional church. I ran across too many times in my own travels those who made it their preoccupation to proclaim themselves and their peers as the new wineskin while systematically and ignorantly deconstructing the church that had existed before them.

    And you are correct, when they claimed to have a corner on the market, the Spirit withdrew His influence and yet they knew not that the Lord had left them……… they still don’t.

  141. “Be baptized and believe. That’s it.”

    Every CC practices baptism, thus has membership according to you. Your point is then moot.

  142. crownedone1 says:

    Michael @ 57 “Easy to say when it’s not your kids that will go hungry.”

    True, but…how long will we use that as an excuse? A day will come, when the choice will be ‘God’ or ‘security from hardship’. We will have to choose.

    Until that day comes, I agree that being ‘wise as serpents, harmless as doves’ is the correct course of action as we continue to spread the gospel for as long as God allows us.

  143. Scott says:

    This isn’t relevant to anything except the time frame and culture from which the Jesus People Movement was birthed.

    I watched a documentary on the Sunset Strip the other night, especially events surrounding the Rock n Roll era. It was horrible. The debauchery and perversion was mind blowing. Ozzy Osbournes wife shared how that the band members of Led Zepplin were extremely cruel towards women. They would burn the women, ram them iron pipes in their private parts, tie or handcuff them and leave them that way for a couple of days at a time. Disgusting.

    Don’t know that I can ever listen to them again too be honest. I was aware of the drug and sex component but not what I described above.

  144. EricL says:

    If all of this is true in Michael’s article, then I think Chuck did the right thing for CC Costa Mesa to decline buying out Brian. The local church will have the leader it is now accustomed to, instead of becoming a pawn in a bigger power-play. It will turn into just another large church among the myriads of big churches in Orange County, while new leaders rise up and the CCA headquarters relocate. Happened to the Vineyard. Anaheim Vineyard was left behind as the AVC moved to Texas to be closer to a new leader’s home church. CC Costa Mesa will no longer be the “mother church” but it will be intact, unlike the Crystal Cathedral, which fell apart as Schuller’s kids fought over it.

  145. Dude says:

    The entire Calvary Chapel structure is temperal.Chuck expected to raptured in his life time.The whole movement is based on his world view of we are in the end times……just my view point .

  146. ( |o )====::: says:

    “And you are correct, when they claimed to have a corner on the market, the Spirit withdrew His influence and yet they knew not that the Lord had left them……… they still don’t.”

    …um, no, I never said that The Lord had left them.

    Reread my words…
    “Then, one of those churches decided it WAS “the movement” and quickly killed off “The Jesus People Movement”.

    There’s a HUGE difference between what I posted and someone claiming that I ever said that “The Lord left them.” I completely disagree with what was posted.

    I believe that The Holy Spirit dwells over all the Earth without limits or dilution. He is especially in the consciousness of those who gather in His Name, wherever two or more as Jesus said.

    Each and every individual at CCCM is known of Jesus, is precious to Him, and to state anything less is not what I can find in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

    “The Jesus People Movement” and the “Jesus People”, as a cultural phenomenon and meme were killed off, figuratively.

    The hippie, Ben Born Again, went bald.

    The Everlastin’ Jesus Music Concert was homogenized and pasteurized into a bland Praise series with a wall-o-singers and no-jam-or-solo sweet syrup packaging.

    The artists and mystics were invited to go to The Vineyard.

    Christian culture morphed, and most important, Jesus DIDN’T rapture us all out on Israel’s 40th anniversary.

    Now, the hype, vibe and “Jesus Movement” buzz have dissipated.

    We’re gripped with the reality that we’ve always simply been part of a multi-millennial family of faith charged with living the personal reality of Jesus’ Kingdom.

    Love is mundane, and much more challenging to DO.

    …pretty cool how Jesus let all this happen.

  147. Andrew says:

    Every CC practices baptism, thus has membership according to you. Your point is then moot.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    The difference is in community. I don’t understand how a pastor can baptize a person without ever having met them, talked with them or been in community with them, know their testimony or even know their name. Maybe its just me but I find this a bit impulsive when kids just want to get wet and jump in the baptismal pool to cool off.

  148. Ixtlan says:

    @148

    I used your statement as springboard and added my own observation. Notice the absence of quotation marks.

    I was “there” too. Like I said, from beginning to end.

    never mind.

  149. ( |o )====::: says:

    Thanks for the clarification

    i dont want anyone to think i believe “the Spirit withdrew His influence and yet they knew not that the Lord had left them” because as long as there is even one person there who wants a relationship with Jesus there He is, in dwelling that one child of God, and therein is what is wonderous about our Savior

  150. parker says:

    I totally agree, ( |o )====:::, @148

    Sounds like you have been around as long as I have. I remember Ben Born Again, and yes, he is bald now. I started attending in 1970, in the little chapel. I showed up at 18 years old, flat broke, and nowhere to stay so Mansion Messiah took me in.

    Somebody mentioned Lonnie earlier. Lonnie Frisbee was without a doubt the catalyst that got the whole Calvary Chapel movement going. Lonnie did the same thing again with The Vineyard movement in the 80’s. He also did the same thing in Europe and in other countries. But Lonnie has been written out of the history, because he supposedly had “sin” in his life.

    I stopped going to Calvary in the early 90’s after being pretty deeply hurt by them and realizing there was nothing there for me anymore. I had to rethink a lot of things.

    Dude @147,
    You bring up a very interesting point. I think you are exactly right. Chuck still believes the Lord should be showing up any minute now, so why bother with setting up long-term plans.

  151. parker,
    I became a follower of Jesus in 1971, up in Northern California, so my perspective is pre-CCCM.

    We were hippie kids who were convinced that the world was headed toward nuclear war. Late Great Planet Earth was in our backpacks next to our bibles. Many of us were raised in Christianity but with Hal Lindsey and other dispensationalists handing us their Rapture colored glasses to read scripture through many of us turned on our traditional faith (as a Roman Catholic kid I HAD to leave The Whore of Babylon) and we were totally convinced that we “Jesus People” were “a new wine skin” and the end times outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an apostate world.

    When I moved to Southern California I had dreams of becoming a Maranatha! musician, that I’d fall in love with and marry a woman who would sing duets with me and we’d write songs about Jesus and sing “I Wish We’d All Be Ready” and give altar calls to fill the pews before the catching away.

    I married well, an assessment woman who was far more sensible and grounded and not so easily swayed. Year after year went by, prediction after prediction, and how Chuck would be surprised to be here next year (surprise).

    She and I stayed plugged those who sought more worship, longer times of waiting on God, meditating and adoring Jesus while CCCM equated worship with bible study and got increasingly freaked out that we were “Emergents” because we dimmed the lights during the service.

    I think it’s safe to say that in many ways we’ve all learned a lot, been through much which strips away the non-essentials leaving us with increasing awe of God and love of others.

    CCCM is nothing without its people. It’s pulpit persons will come and go but it will continue as long as Jesus is the focus of each person there.

    Best to you

  152. “assessment” should read “awesome”

    blasted iPad autocorrect

  153. parker says:

    Thanks for sharing some of your story, ( |o )====:::

    I can relate. We were all being programmed about the same way. I remember carrying The Late Great Planet Earth around as well.

    I still remember a particular sermon by Pastor Chuck on a Sunday morning and I was so convinced the rapture was about to happen. It was the first Sunday of the new year. The title of his sermon was, “Could it be in ’73”.

  154. Ixtlan says:

    @ (Bacardi) 151

    You’re welcome and thank you.

    We may have sat next to each other in church back in those days, which to me, became part of the problem. My experience was that there was very little community there, unlike most other churches I’ve attended. Probably didn’t help that I am an introvert.

    I seem to recall reading you once saying something to the effect that you are “the resident emergent” here? My writing at times borders on meta-narrative, which I would think an artistic type like yourself would appreciate. I’ll just say this. There was a big difference in the atmosphere at CCCM in 1970 from that of 1978, but I’m not intending to write “Ichabod” on the door. Not then, not now, and probably never will.

    Go Brodersen!

  155. Ixtlan,
    I’m totally tracking with you. Glad to hear you’re not saying “Ichabod”. =)

    Yeah, I moved here in 1978, still retained my associations with “charismatics”, so I was open to “the Vineyard” stuff, though I held anything lightly that didn’t have a solid Smith arrived chapter & verse.

    I’m ok with the “Emergent” label, why not? 😉

    Meta, shmetta, we’ve all got stories to tell, and it lets me know what you think is important and how you feel. It’s all good.

    Have a great evening, my piano is telling me I need to practice

  156. no one of any consequence says:

    “Ichabroderson!” I’m tracking with Ben The Bald.

  157. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Its all about $$$$$$$. A million for a buy out? Wow! These are supposed to be men of God? These men are legends in their own mind. Sorry but the men I look up to are unknowns and actually work their asses off to support their families and not Con people out of their hard earned $ so they can pay off a boring No charisma having leader. Skip is annoying and Brian is as boring as watching paint dry, either way the loser is CCCM

  158. Andrew says:

    Ok then, what it is about the Moses Model that bothers you, and specifically something that did not exist before Calvary Chapel?

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Yeah the Moses Model is troublesome. I believe in some cases its a form of idolatry that gives a pastor no accountability and in extreme cases people start worshiping the pastor instead of God. This happens in cults all the time and although I don’t call Calvary a cult, I do think the Moses Model practice was and is “cultish”. Idolatry has been around since the beginning of the church and maybe this is another form of the same sin.

  159. Andrew – I would like to hold you to your words.

    “and in extreme cases people start worshiping the pastor instead of God.”

    Can you name an instance where people stopped worshiping God and worshiped their CC Moses Model pastor? – you know, prayed to him, sang praise songs to him etc…

  160. Andrew says:

    MLD,

    You don’t need to sings songs to someone for it to be idolatrous. Yep, every time a CC pastor Vision casts and claims to receive direct revelation from God its a form of idolatry especially when they demand submission to their vision.

  161. Andy says:

    “Yep, every time a CC pastor Vision casts and claims to receive direct revelation from God its a form of idolatry especially when they demand submission to their vision.”

    If that is idolatry, then every other form of church government is also idolatry, since then the submission will be to either the elders, or the congregation, or whatever is the final word on decision-making. Because someone is still demanding submission to decisions that are made, and if the pastor ain’t making them, then someone is.

    Which is why I’m done with the church government debate. The pastor as the head of all, is a legit form of church government, in my opinion. If you don’t like it, then attend where you can have it your way (burger king church).

    But to get back to the main point, the article that Michael wrote, is very important. Calvary Chapel is going to fragment, probably not just into two camps, but dozens. Where I live, it is already happening, there are three distinct camps already operating, but it appears it won’t stop there, and it will end with this: every Calvary Chapel will be truly independent. Which is probably the way it should be anyway.

  162. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Andrew,

    I think the best thing to do is not take theses guys on the pulpit so seriously. There just men, read your word for urself and realize the Pastor is not the be all end all of the church. The holy spirit guides us into all truth not man who many times is educated beyond his own intelligence. Even Jesus said we have no need of a teacher and not call any man teacher or father for we only have one. A true pastor would have the heart of David who repented when Nathan the prophet confronted him with his sin. A true pastor would have the heart of John the baptist who said he must decrease so Jesus could increase and he was the greatest man born of a woman. A true Pastor gives and doesn’t suck the life out of his flock. A true pastor wouldn’t live soft and luxurious because he would use his abundance to supply others lack. A true Pastor is open to correction from even the lowliest brother.

  163. Andrew – no, you said that they had stopped worshiping God and were now worshiping their pastor.

    “start worshiping the pastor INSTEAD of God.”

    I just wanted to know if you knew of any real life stories that fit this … or is this just something that floats around between your ears.

  164. Andy,
    I live in SoCal and am surrounded by CCs – large and small. I have no idea if they are unified as one group – if they have split or splintered into various groups etc.

    Can I ask how you know? Do they put something different on the street sign?

  165. no one of any consequence says:

    The part of the Jesus movement that was God working was noteworthy and everlasting. The rest is chaff. Let it go.

  166. Andy says:

    “Can I ask how you know? Do they put something different on the street sign?”

    Oh yes, that is exactly how.

  167. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Just the fact that Michaels source remains behind the shadows due to fear of his children being harmed speaks volumes about the wicked and disgusting men involved with Calvary Chapel leadership. That right there is the biggest testimony against them

  168. Andy,
    Actually it was a serious question. Look, the 4 nearest me are in Rancho Santa Margarita, Mission Viejo, Lake Forest and Aliso Viejo. Can you check them out and let me know if they are CCCM loyal or if they have splintered into a different group.

    btw. Lutherans do put different logos on the sign so you know if they are WELS, LCMS, OR ELCA. 🙂

  169. Michael says:

    Solomon,

    I had many sources for this article.
    Oddly enough, I read a number of news articles this morning and they all involved unnamed sources.
    I didn’t send emails to the reporters demanding that their sources be outed.
    In these sorts of conflicts there will always be good reasons for speaking off the record…what matters is whether the facts are correct.
    In this case they are.
    Most of the people I spoke with, I would trust with both my child and my wallet.

  170. Andrew says:

    Which is why I’m done with the church government debate. The pastor as the head of all, is a legit form of church government, in my opinion. If you don’t like it, then attend where you can have it your way (burger king church).

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Not my way but the Bible’s way. Its not that difficult and its amazing how much consensus there is to what that really implies.

  171. Andrew, I’ve asked a bunch of times, what is the Bible’s way? You’ve yet to answer.

    Michael, so, these are facts? Not alleged, not “what I’ve heard”, but facts? The million dollar check, Chuck’s refusing the offer…facts? If so, that changes everything,

  172. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    If consensus is the measure the highest percentage of Protestant churches in this country are pastor led.
    I’ve got a bunch of books on the “biblical” form of church government…I want the one you must have that settles the issue forever.

  173. no one of any consequence says:

    Jesus said “Sit the men in groups of fifty. You feed them. You must be the servant of all.”

  174. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Whether you choose to believe them or not, those are facts.
    They are facts that I took weeks to verify and checked and cross checked for absolute accuracy.
    It’s my ass on the line when I post stuff like that…with God and my readers.
    I make sure I get it right.

  175. Andrew says:

    Andrew – no, you said that they had stopped worshiping God and were now worshiping their pastor.

    “start worshiping the pastor INSTEAD of God.”

    I just wanted to know if you knew of any real life stories that fit this … or is this just something that floats around between your ears.

    _____________________________________________________________________

    I can give you lots of examples of cults that use the same tactics. Just take Jim Jones. The people worshiped him and followed him to the grave. I don’t think there is much of a distinction between idolatry and celebrity pastor worship. Just my two cents but you can certainly disagree if you choose. Putting a pastors words above the Word of God to me is a type of worship. Just my opinion.

  176. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Michael,

    I don’t doubt your source but what I’m saying is that the fact that he fears for his children’s safety as a reason for not speaking just shows how wicked these so called Calvary Chapel leaders are. A local church and its elders should be the last ones you fear

  177. They weren’t presented as facts until just now, so I believe you. Now, there are still insinuations that are not factual. ( reasons that Broderson is not wanted, what will happen next, etc.). Those things are still gossipy, but if you are reporting the the proposal and and denial as fact, I have no reason not to believe.

  178. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I think you will see some sort of name distinction like yet within a couple of years.
    It’s too early in the process to expect it now.

  179. Andrew says:

    Michael,

    I am not naive to not know there are disagreements with the type of church government. The consensus I am referring to though is in opposing cult like tactics that elevate a man to a degree that they can not be questioned. When I hear “touch not God’s anointed”, I realize that these men are probably not anointed. This is all I am saying. I find consensus among sound minded Christians regardless of church government that this is manipulative and wrong. I don’t find many that side with Jim Jones cult like tactics.

  180. Solomon, has it been reported as fact that a source fears for the safety of his children? I missed that.

  181. no one of any consequence says:

    Is this the argument channel? Where can I find the fellowship channel?

  182. Michael says:

    Josh,

    The Broderson comments weren’t insinuations, they were things that have been repeated over and over gain by those in that group.
    Everything in that article with the exception of the last line was constructed from extensive interviews with the people involved.
    What the hell…do you think I just get up in the morning and decide to write something wild?
    I worked hard on that article…

  183. Michael says:

    Solomon,

    The fear is in losing your job…which affects the welfare of your kids.
    Ask me, I know.

  184. “What the hell…do you think I just get up in the morning and decide to write something wild?”

    Wait…you mean you don’t? 😉

  185. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    That’s what was intimated by Michael when peeps questioned sources reluctance to come out

  186. Michael says:

    CK,

    It would be far easier… 🙂

  187. Michael, you know I like you and have benefited from your writing. That is the only reason I have challenged this.

    This article is not written as a presentation of facts, it is written like a gossip column. Like an online tabloid. That is why I couldn’t figure out the purpose. If the purpose was to present the facts, it was just presented in an odd way. I had to assume the Broderson comments were insinuations, as they weren’t presented as a direct quote.

    From this line
    “When the door closed behind him, the door closed on the Calvary Chapel movement as it has been constituted to this point.”
    on is obviously speculation, right? How could it be factual that the movement is over?

    Do you see what I am saying?

  188. Andy says:

    “Not my way but the Bible’s way. Its not that difficult and its amazing how much consensus there is to what that really implies.”

    Of course your way is the Bible’s way. But equally of course, we all say that, don’t we…

  189. Andy says:

    “The Broderson comments weren’t insinuations, they were things that have been repeated over and over gain by those in that group.”

    Michael is right. Yes, there are CC pastors that will leave CC to some degree (fully or partially), if BB is the next head of the mothership. Whether people want to believe that or not, it is so.

  190. Andy, in order for it to be reported as fact, you need someone on record saying it.

  191. Andy says:

    “Andy, in order for it to be reported as fact, you need someone on record saying it.”

    I can assure you, they’re not interested in being on digital recording saying it, just for your sake. So you can choose to not believe it. Time will tell…..

  192. Andrew says:

    Of course your way is the Bible’s way. But equally of course, we all say that, don’t we…
    ______________________________________________________________________

    No, we don’t. I find tremendous unity and agreement within the body of Christ that Jim Jones cult like tactics that are idolatry and pastor worship to be universally condemned as evil and against what the Bible clearly says.

  193. Michael says:

    Josh,

    It was written as a story…because I believe that stories are the best way to communicate a number of different things coherently.
    That line is not speculation.
    The “movement” has in reality been dominated by one man with great influence.
    That man is , to be blunt, dying.
    The last chance at something approaching the status quo was to put someone in place with a similar mindset, but who would unfortunately never have the cache of Chuck Smith.
    That didn’t happen, and even if it had it would have failed to stop the splits.
    The CCA is divided…by their own words to me.
    The era is over by the testimony of those who hold the legacy.
    That’s not gossip.
    It’s a compendium of dozens of interviews over many weeks.
    I frankly dont care what anyone thinks at this point…since the publication of the article it has been affirmed and confirmed again.
    It’s never fun to have your credibility and motives challenged, but I did what I thought was right and I did it carefully and thoroughly.

  194. Andy says:

    “I find tremendous unity and agreement within the body of Christ that Jim Jones cult like tactics that are idolatry and pastor worship to be universally condemned as evil and against what the Bible clearly says.”

    Chuck Smith found the verses that he says, show pastor-led government. Congregational found theirs too, and elder-led found theirs as well. At least Chuck was honest about it by saying that the Bible isn’t perfectly clear on this issue.

    And it could have been, if it wanted to. Like how the husband is the head of the household. Like it or lump it, that issue is perfectly clear. But not so with church government. Could it be because it is a liberty issue in which the Lord is willing to work through different kinds of governments for different people’s makeups?

    So your way is right. So is Chuck’s.

  195. Do you understand the difference between the reporting of facts, and story-telling? Both are valuable, but have different purposes.

    When you impugn real people with real lives there had better be facts to back that up. You say that they are facts, but they are not presented as such. That is confusing to the reader, and frankly invites more speculation of what may or may not have happened, motives of those involved, etc.

    No one likes being held accountable, but I think you’d rather that I do it than the court system, right?

  196. Andrew says:

    So your way is right. So is Chuck’s
    _______________________________________________________________________

    Its not my way. And I am not talking about church government per say but about opposing Jim Jones Cult like tactics of pastor worship. If you want to say Jim Jones is correct as well, be my guest but I would say 99.9999999% of Christians would oppose him.

  197. “If you want to say Jim Jones is correct as well, be my guest but I would say 99.9999999% of Christians would oppose him.”

    Including the Moses Model pastors. Your point is moot.

  198. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I didn’t impugn any motives.
    I was quite careful to not make value judgments or speak of anyones character.
    I am painfully aware of how badly some would want to sue me or do me damage in some way…I’ve been doing this a long, long time.
    Frankly, the only way to report things that happen over a period of time with numerous players is as a story.
    You have made yourself quite clear about your feelings about the article.
    I respect that.

  199. Andy says:

    “Jim Jones”

    Jim Jones is a buzz phrase intended to elicit emotion, like bringing up Hitler. I’ve never met a CC pastor that wanted anyone literally killing themselves a la Jim Jones. It’s a silly exaggeration.

    Abuse happens in every system of church government. The congregation can abuse the pastor in a congregational system by holding him hostage to an agenda under threat of termination. Elders can do the same to a pastor, and both systems can effectively run out dissenters in the congregation if they don’t tow the line. The pastor doing it alone, just gets the abuse done more quickly. In all three cases, the abuse is wrong. But it happens in all three. So de-throning the pastor from such power, won’t change the problem.

    I know of a man, taking over a church, where two men effectively ran the church from behind before the pastor’s arrival. These two men ran people off from the congregation and abused many. And the pastor rightly stood against them, and ran them off. They later cried “abuse” being inflicted on them, but everyone knew the truth, and the only two that ended up leaving the church, were the two real abusers.

  200. Andrew says:

    Chuck Smith found the verses that he says, show pastor-led government. Congregational found theirs too, and elder-led found theirs as well. At least Chuck was honest about it by saying that the Bible isn’t perfectly clear on this issue.
    _______________________________________________________________________

    Also, lets be clear here. I am not opposed to pastor led, Presbyterian lead or congregational led forms of church government. Chuck Smith is the one who made it clear that congregational forms are wrong in his distinctives. He made that clear that this was not an option for church government in his distinctives. Just saying….

  201. Andrew says:

    “Jim Jones is a buzz phrase intended to elicit emotion, like bringing up Hitler. I’ve never met a CC pastor that wanted anyone literally killing themselves a la Jim Jones. It’s a silly exaggeration. ”

    How about David Koresh, Rev. Moon, ect, etc, etc…? The list goes on and on. Always centers around 1 unquestionable charismatic leader which sadly is the comparison that troubles me. It may be an exaggeration but I am glad I am not one that was deceived back in 1981 thinking Christ would return then and going out and selling everything I got in that anticipation. That was foolishness silly beyond exaggeration.

  202. Andrew says:

    Including the Moses Model pastors. Your point is moot.
    ________________________________________________________________

    You apparently haven’t read ” The
    Ministry of An Assisting Pastor” by Larry Taylor published in 1994 in Calvary Chapel Bible College. Hey, this isn’t that long ago and I haven’t heard one Moses Model pastor speak out against this glaringly cultic document. But hey, if you think its cool, what am I to say..

  203. Andrew, it has been pointed out to you multiple times that Larry Taylor disowned that book, and the last time you brought it up two Calvary Chapel pastors spoke out against it in the same thread.

  204. Andrew says:

    Josh, Its great that Larry Taylor disowned the book. Is Larry even part of CC anymore? Did Chuck Smith disown it?

  205. Andrew says:

    How would I know?
    _____________________________________________________________________
    Well you seem to know a lot about Moses Model pastors.

  206. In comparison to you, yes, but I know very little about Calvary Chapel that isn’t common knowledge from a quick google search.

  207. Steve Wright says:

    Josh, Andrew ignored your second part – about the two pastors in the same thread speaking against it. He read your comment since he replied to the first half.

    Odd isn’t it?

    And since you can’t buy the booklet at Calvary Distribution, which is the book outlet that CC pastors worldwide use – then I think it is safe to say it has been disowned.

    Does its “influence” remain in some random CCs around the country. Sure.

    Pink’s books before his conversion to Calvinism also are out there too. 🙂 Things change but books can remain.

    I won’t hold my breath for any applause for CC for not selling this book anymore. 🙂

  208. Reuben says:

    Larry wrote a rebuttal to his own book. He is a Presbyterian now.

  209. Andy says:

    “I am glad I am not one that was deceived back in 1981”

    As bad as that situation was, it is still not the same as perishing in a death cult.

  210. I will say that it is shocking that 1982 was not the end of the movement. That should tell you that more than Chuck Smith was at play. Anybody gets something that wrong and still grows for another 30 years is pretty impressive, however you decide to look at it.

  211. Steve Wright says:

    Josh, or these guys that have bailed on CC in later years for various reasons like to exaggerate what was and was not said about 1981. 🙂

    But since “we weren’t there” as we will be told – then I like the way you are thinking here.

  212. Andrew says:

    And since you can’t buy the booklet at Calvary Distribution, which is the book outlet that CC pastors worldwide use – then I think it is safe to say it has been disowned.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Strange how that works. Finally there is some negative publicity on a very dangerous book and “poof” its just some how disowned with no commentary of why it is no longer in print. Whatever… Glad its not sold any more but it sure does say a lot about the first 20 or so years of CC that some are finally distancing themselves from. Thank God for that.

  213. Steve Wright says:

    Finally there is some negative publicity on a very dangerous book
    ——————————————
    You sound like they dropped it last week after reading your comments on a blog.

    Like you said…”whatever”

  214. Andrew says:

    I will say that it is shocking that 1982 was not the end of the movement. That should tell you that more than Chuck Smith was at play. Anybody gets something that wrong and still grows for another 30 years is pretty impressive, however you decide to look at it.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Please keep in mind that the Internet was not an option for many to question anything back in those days. Keeping people manipulated and in the dark using cult like strategies such as what was written in the Larry Taylor book that only recently has been disowned by a select few CC pastors seems to be partly the reason for the success no matter how you look at this.

  215. Andrew says:

    You sound like they dropped it last week after reading your comments on a blog.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Steve, maybe you can tell me when they did drop it to settle this matter.

  216. Steve Wright says:

    Have no idea, Andrew. I personally hadn’t seen it around since the mid-90s. At least though your earlier words have been corrected and responded to….

    So you no doubt will drop repeating the very same thing in another 3 months to any new readers who assume when someone says “I have never seen anyone at CC speak out against this book” that you are actually articulating truth there.

    Have to split for now.

  217. Andrew says:

    And since you can’t buy the booklet at Calvary Distribution, which is the book outlet that CC pastors worldwide use – then I think it is safe to say it has been disowned.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Steve, you have mentioned numerous times that all CC are completely autonomous and independent. Can you please tell me who owns, operates, manages, and decides what is sold in Calvary Distribution? Is this part of Costa Mesa or have these assets been transferred to another church, person or entity?

  218. Andrew says:

    I just went to Calvary Chapel distribution. Seems like they still sell the “distinctives” there for $9.99. Hmmm, I thought they did away with them. Interesting.

  219. Oh my golly Andrew, this again?!?

  220. parker says:

    Michael,

    I, for one, do appreciate the work you do here. I have followed your blog for several years. You have helped me to deal with the wrongs that I experienced through Calvary Chapel. I felt very alone for a long time. You have helped me to take on the issues I have, in a healthier way. I don’t DO church anymore, yet I still have that hunger to know God.

    Thank you for publishing this story. It does not come off as gossipy. I think those who know you best understand where your heart is and what motivates you. You provide a very valuable service here. For too long these secrets were just that … Secrets. It cannot be easy to do what you do. There is a lot of misinformation out there. I see it all the time. I don’t find that with you. Again, Thank You. Voices like yours and a couple of others I can think of are needed …. unfortunately.

    I was there when there was only one Calvary Chapel. I know some of the main characters in this drama and I am familiar with the rest of them. I can guess at a couple of your sources.

    I’m curious, when this non-denominational denomination does fall apart, what do you think are going to be the different factions, or belief systems that are going to emerge?

  221. Michael says:

    parker,

    Thank you for the kind words.
    These things aren’t easy…they do exact a toll.
    As to the future, all my discussions with folks internally point to an incredible breaking apart with no one having any idea where the different parts will settle.
    We know there will be a traditionalist wing…but who don’t know how many or who the leaders will be.
    CC pastors don’t like following anyone…except the one guy who will no longer be leading.

  222. parker says:

    Michael,

    Thanks. I get it. A huge group of alpha males without a leader would be a very explosive situation.

  223. Steve Wright says:

    Steve, you have mentioned numerous times that all CC are completely autonomous and independent. Can you please tell me who owns, operates, manages, and decides what is sold in Calvary Distribution?
    ——————————————————
    Andrew – I assume it is still a ministry of Costa Mesa, unless something has recently changed. CC pastors are allowed an account in order to purchase books there for personal consumption or to offer to their churches. Sort of like how CC pastors are allowed to come onto the grounds of the Costa Mesa owned Conference Center for an annual pastors’ conference.

    How you think this relates to the independence of the local church is beyond me. Maybe Josh can share how the independent Baptist churches have similar alliances and opportunities.

    As to the Distinctives. Once more, in a desperate effort at fault finding you not only change the subject but get the facts wrong in the process. But if you want to talk about the Distinctives, nobody has ever said they are no longer for sale at the bookstore. What has been said is they are no longer a focus in the new CCA. CCA does have many of the former Distincitves declared on their website, in different packaging, as there are those traits that unite those of us as CC pastors.

    Moses Model is not one of them. Now, will you commend the change as a positive step forward for CC as a whole. Or continue to carp?

  224. Yeah, the SBC has this little thing called lifeway.

  225. PP Vet says:

    Best Avatar award goes to parker

  226. erunner says:

    I have a copy of the distinctives… let the bidding begin. Good grief…. you can read it free online if you just google it.

  227. parker,
    I’m wondering if you will find this article about “end times” as spot on as I find it to be…

    http://www.formerlyfundie.com/end-times-believers/

  228. Andrew says:

    “And since you can’t buy the booklet at Calvary Distribution, which is the book outlet that CC pastors worldwide use – then I think it is safe to say it has been disowned.”

    And here is Steve again.

    “As to the Distinctives. Once more, in a desperate effort at fault finding you not only change the subject but get the facts wrong in the process. But if you want to talk about the Distinctives, nobody has ever said they are no longer for sale at the bookstore. What has been said is they are no longer a focus in the new CCA.”

    _______________________________________________________________________

    So Steve, exactly what facts do I have wrong? You say in the previous paragraph that since a book is no longer sold, it is safe to say its disowned. Really? And then in the next paragraph you admit another book is sold but claim its not a focus yet you fail to admit it is the number 2 best seller which to me I find unbelievable for a whopping price of $9.99. BTW, you can find both books online for free. So Steve exactly where are you getting this information that the distinctives are no longer the focus? Obviously if CCA is in charge of the brand they are purposely allowing, profiting and continuing to sell the distinctives in the official Calvary Distribution online store. They have not separated themselves at all from this. These are the facts unless you can show me otherwise.

  229. Andrew, what part of the distinctives are you not fond of?

  230. Andrew says:

    Andrew, what part of the distinctives are you not fond of?
    ______________________________________________________________________

    We can start with the Moses Model and firing your elders part.

  231. I see, it is circular reasoning. You don’t like The Distinctives because of the Moses Model, and you don’t like the Moses Model because it is part of the distinctives.

    Its all good, man. I disagree with some of the things Calvary Chapel does and would gladly discuss those issues with anyone. However, I can’t just say they are bad…because they are bad. But you do it your way.

  232. Andrew says:

    Josh,

    It is what it is. But what drives me nuts is when folks like Steve say the distinctives are no longer an emphasis in the new CCA (what ever that is) yet its the number 2 best seller in the official Calvary Distribution store as of today. So all I am asking is who says they are not an emphasis anymore? Just give us all a break and be honest for once instead of playing politics.

  233. We’ve directed you to the CCA website before, where the distinctives aren’t listed. Could it be Steve IS honest and you just don’t know what you are talking about?

  234. Steve Wright says:

    Andrew, to become a CC affiliated pastor in the past, one had to read in full and agree with the principles found in the book The Distinctives.

    In the CCA, one no longer has to read this book nor agree with it. There are certain points like being pretrib, that are necessary under the CCA, and that was one of the Distinctives as well – but many of the Distinctives, including the Moses Model stuff, and of course the book itself are NOT. Nowhere is the book mentioned in the CCA website that I am aware of.

    I hope that is clear now.

    I have never said the Distinctives are no longer sold at the bookstore – and as an aside it amazes me that some with legal troubles for falsehood have not yet learned the wisdom of keeping lies off their websites

  235. Andrew says:

    Josh,

    Just because the CCA doesn’t mention something is moot. This website is very new and quite frank most of it still appears to be under construction.

    Here is what the official Calvary Distribution says about the distinctives:

    “What makes Calvary Chapel Distinctive? It’s always good to have a grasp of the distinctive work that God has done in our fellowship. If Calvary Chapel is exactly like the church across the street it would be better to simply merge the two. But, if there are qualities that make us different, then we have a unique and special place in the plan of God. Certainly there are churches that share many of our beliefs and practices. But God has done a wonderful work of balance in the Calvary Chapel movement that does make us different. Some churches believe in the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit, but don’t have a strong emphasis on Biblical teaching. Others place a strong emphasis on teaching the Word of God, but don’t believe the gifts of the Spirit are available and valid today. In Calvary Chapel we value the teaching of the Word, and posses an open heart to the work of the Holy Spirit. This balance makes Calvary Chapel a distinct and uniquely blessed movement of God.”

  236. Andrew, what about that statement do you disagree with? Looks good to me.

  237. no one of any consequence says:

    Finally a quote with teeth.
    “…In Calvary Chapel we value the teaching of the Word, and posses an open heart to the work of the Holy Spirit.”
    The part about possessing an open heart to the work of the Holy Spirit was true in the early days. Not since.

  238. Andrew says:

    In the CCA, one no longer has to read this book nor agree with it. There are certain points like being pretrib, that are necessary under the CCA, and that was one of the Distinctives as well – but many of the Distinctives, including the Moses Model stuff, and of course the book itself are NOT.
    _______________________________________________________________________

    Being pretrib is necessary for what? Affiliation? To be saved? To be necessary for what exactly? Because there is absolutely nothing on the web site about affiliation, what that means, who enforces the affiliation and if there even is an affiliation any more. Steve you appear to be blowing smoke. If there is an affiliation and I agree with the statement of faith, can I be affiliated or is it only senior pastor that can be affiliated as what traditionally always was with the Moses Model?

  239. Kevin H says:

    You guys are all missing the bigger point.

    Does or does not CCA and Calvary Distribution promote and/or sell jands? And what relation, if any, do jands have to the Distinctives?

    And if you are a Moses Model pastor, do you need to keep holding up your jands in order to win the battle?

  240. Wow Andrew. You are clueless brother.

  241. Steve Wright says:

    Well, I am done with the educational broadcast thinking people might want to know the truth about a thing or two. Some people would rather hate and mock and make-up a bunch of stuff about the brethren. Andrew actually is not nearly as bad as others who shall not be named.

    Yes, I know nothing Andrew. I wasn’t in a meeting with scores of other regional pastors where the new CCA was explained and the affiliation process was laid out for us.

    But please note – you are in full RB mode @240 flailing with a dozen questions in one post – not really caring that any of them be answered. And they all could be if you did care, and I would even be happy to tell you.

    Peace.

  242. I’m an Arron Model pastor. I help the main guy hold up his jands.

  243. PP Vet says:

    I really do not know how to respond to the When Doves Cry post. PhxP has always pushed the envelope in terms of what is gossip and what is fair game.

    It could be considered that in a culture such as the religious culture, which is not accountable and transparent, the rules for accuracy and reliability of reporting can be relaxed a little, because if not there is no information at all.

    Everything written at this site comes with a disclaimer, in my opinion, along these lines: Look, we are not professional journalists. We do this for free, we try to be as fair and honest and as thorough as possible, and we do the best we can. You probably should not reference us for your college term paper as authoritative.

    One could say that in a way the comments provide some balance, some opportunity for rebuttal and discussion. So the thread as a whole is almost – a little – like a Wikipedia article, which in some ways is an attempt to fairly integrate the honest perspectives of well-intended amateurs.

  244. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve W. said, “not really caring that any of them be answered. And they all could be if you did care, and I would even be happy to tell you.”

    Bullspit. You wouldn’t be transparent and you’d him and haw and deflect. I can post emails of your past convos if you’d like telling me stuff like “it’s none of your business” etc which is the CC default position on all inner-workings.

    You’re full of bull Steve.

  245. Andrew, I don’t get it. Every group has distinctives. Here are mine and all pastors in the LCMS upon ordination and installation promise to believe, teach and confess every bit. I had to make a similar promise upon membership.

    I’ll bet you would disagree with mine as much or more than with CCs.

    http://bookofconcord.org/

  246. Ricky Bobby says:

    …now Steve might out stuff anonymously, but he’d never put his name on it. He’s not that guy. (cough cough coward cough cough).

  247. Yeah, here are the SBC distinctives, and yes, SBC professors, missionaries and Pastors would all have to agree with these.

    http://www.sbc.org/bfm/bfm2000.asp

  248. Andrew says:

    Andrew, I don’t get it. Every group has distinctives. Here are mine and all pastors in the LCMS upon ordination and installation promise to believe, teach and confess every bit. I had to make a similar promise upon membership.

    _________________________________________________________________________
    Does or does not CC have distinctives? Apparently they do but Steve comes along and says have of them have been thrown out and half of them are still valid and I am not sure if this only applies to pastors or did CC finally include some kind of membership that you mention above. But until a new book of distinctives comes out, do I just give Steve the benefit of the doubt of exactly what those distinctives are and what they are not?

  249. You could read the CCA website, which we have pointed you towards, or you could just keep making up stuff as you go.

  250. So, Steve catches hell from you because CC has distinctives and then on the other hand catches more hell from you because they either don’t have distinctives or they are no longer binding?

    I asked you a month or so ago to post your churches ‘distinctives’ or statement of beliefs – preferably the website to the church.

    You remain quite secretive about both what your church believes and how your church operates. Come on buddy – cough it up.

  251. Andrew says:

    Yes, I know nothing Andrew. I wasn’t in a meeting with scores of other regional pastors where the new CCA was explained and the affiliation process was laid out for us.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    From your sarcasm Steve, I take it you actually were at a meeting with scores of other regional pastors where the new CCA was explained and the affiliation process was laid out. I take your word for it. Why don’t you take the time to explain the entire affiliation process for all our benefit and explain why none of it is on the CCA web site that you keep pointing every body to that answers ZERO (0) questions.

  252. Andrew says:

    I asked you a month or so ago to post your churches ‘distinctives’ or statement of beliefs – preferably the website to the church.

    You remain quite secretive about both what your church believes and how your church operates. Come on buddy – cough it up.

    _______________________________________________________________________
    MLD, it is plain creepy for you to be asking anyone a specific church where they attend on the Internet. I have told you I go to an Independent and small church with no affiliation. I also occasional attend a CC rarely. I’m not against distinctives, but I would like to know what they are.

  253. It’s creepy for MLD to ask you, but not the way you badger Steve over everything?

  254. Actually Andrew, the fact of NO Affiliation kind of creeps me out. No person or group to validate anything you guys do – just ‘fly by the seat of our pants christians.’

    Creepy.

  255. Andrew says:

    MLD,

    Not exactly. I told you I go to a Chinese church. We are in fellowship with probably more churches across the globe than you have in your total denomination. But there is persecution world wide and it is inappropriate and frankly careless to be asking for specific congregations, etc.. on the Internet.

  256. Are you in CHina? I’m calling bullcrap. How are you being persecuted, and how is pointing to a website going to further persecution. You are full of goodies aren’t you?

  257. Andrew says:

    Josh,
    I am in the United States. And my pastor does ministry across the globe very frequently and without getting into specifics the Chinese government has given him a lot of trouble. He has been in jail. So don’t give you your bull crap.

  258. Does he have a website? If so, he doesn’t mind people looking at it. You said MLD was wrong to ask for a website…while on the internet. That’s stupid. Well, obviosuly linking to a website that is either there or not there is toooo dangerous, so just copy and paste your church’s beliefs.

  259. Andrew says:

    Beliefs are in Chinese. Sorry. But I agree pretty much with the CC website statement of faith with minor corrections. So there. But I am not affiliated with CC but agree with them so does that make me affiliated with CC?

  260. Umm, why would it?

    I agree with a lot the Democrats say, but that doesn’t make me the president.

  261. And if the beliefs are in Chinese, just use google translate. Its a convenient tool in such circumstances.

  262. Andrew says:

    Josh, If you want to know what I believe. Look at the CCA web site statement of faith, ok? I would make these corrections. I don’t believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second event after salvation that CC believes. That is the biggest difference I have. I’m not sure about pre-trib since I haven’t studied it enough. I probably more convenant than dispensational but my church doesn’t really go into that much detail with this. So any other questions what I believe so you don’t accuse me of being secretive? I will tell you exactly what I believe or don’t believe or not sure. Ok, is that fair enough?

  263. So you are basically your own denomination then, right?

  264. Andrew says:

    Josh,

    We are an independent church. We were founded by another baptist church. I wouldnt’ call us baptist but probably very similar. Ok?

  265. Well, I’m baptist. Can I be affiliated to your church, or is it only your Moses Model Chinese pastor?

  266. Andrew says:

    Josh,
    We don’t have a Moses Model pastor we have a faithful one.

  267. Can the congregation fire him?

  268. Michael says:

    This ends now.
    I’ve had a busy morning and come in to find a brawl and a bunch of insults waiting on the back end.
    I’ll help clear this up if anyone chooses to listen.
    The CCA (which was supposed to be the new governing body) was intentional about getting rid of most of the “distinctives”
    This is very upsetting to the traditionalist wing.
    That is one reason many are rejecting the CCA and is representative of the first split that will happen.
    Affiliation is another huge battle ground that is unresolved…and adding to the fractures.
    The hard reality is that 1500 churches will each be doing whatever they want to do with no oversight very shortly unless they voluntarily agree to join one of the factions.

    Today, there is no central authority in place that all Calvary Chapel pastors agree on submitting to.

    There is no CCOF, there will be no CCA, the day of true independence is upon us, for better or worse.

  269. So you go to a congregational church, then?

  270. Where is the brawl and insults? Andrew and I were just having a talk.

  271. Ricky Bobby says:

    “There is no CCOF, there will be no CCA, the day of true independence is upon us, for better or worse.”

    Well, it will make Chuck not a liar anymore, “We’re all 100% independent!”

    OK, good, then be that, and don’t say you are when you aren’t.

  272. Andrew says:

    So you go to a congregational church, then?
    ____________________________________________________________________

    For all intent an purposes you could probably say that. But we definitely respect and honor the title of elder when it is deserved.

  273. I guess we have to stop talking about polity?!?!

  274. Michael says:

    Treat each other with respect and do as you please.
    I’m swamped this morning.

  275. “For all intent an purposes you could probably say that. But we definitely respect and honor the title of elder when it is deserved.”

    Are there multiple elders, or just the one pastor?

  276. Andrew says:

    “The CCA (which was supposed to be the new governing body) was intentional about getting rid of most of the “distinctives””

    Governing body or an advisory body that Steve clearly articulated in the past? Big big difference.

  277. Andrew says:

    One elder who is the pastor. We are small.

  278. “One elder who is the pastor. We are small.”

    Then how is that different than Moses Model. ASsuming the Moses has a board who can fire him?

  279. Andrew says:

    A Moses having a board that can fire him is NO Moses at all! That is an understatement of the year.

  280. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    Advisory body at this point that would morph into a governing council.
    Not going to happen.
    It’s gonna be a free for all.

  281. “A Moses having a board that can fire him is NO Moses at all! That is an understatement of the year.”

    Oh good, then all of the CC pastors I have ever talked to are not Moses Model.

  282. Andrew says:

    Michael, I am praying for the best for CC as well as Chuck. There is so much I love with the group. It is unfortunate that Chuck didn’t seem to take anyone’s advice a long time ago. The free for all will be disastrous but I feel that if CC morphs into a denomination that is just as disastrous. I’m not really sure how to pray for this group any more. The only thing I pray for is that the leaders would put God and the people above the brand. That is the only thing I know how to pray for them.

  283. Andrew says:

    Oh good, then all of the CC pastors I have ever talked to are not Moses Model
    _____________________________________________________________________

    They probably just being rebellious cause the distinctives still sold in the Calvary Distribution clearly state that a pastor is not to be a hireling and reports only directly to God.

  284. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    This situation is so complex in so many ways…it is fascinating sociologically and historically, but a bit of train wreck seen from above.

    The most difficult part for me is explaining to people that any efforts to “reform” CC are doomed to failure because there is no central governmental body to reform.

    Each church will be it’s own island…while there was minimal oversight before, now there will be none.

    There will be some fine churches with the brand and some terrible ones as well…much like today.

    Reform will have to happen on the local level and in reality that will amount to “voting with your feet”.

    To be blunt, I’m not sure that is a biblical model, but it is the single largest model across Protestantism in this country.

    That’s a whole separate article and I haven’t completely thought it through yet.

    What I have thought of is that today more than ever each person needs to take responsibility for their own spiritual health and that of their families.

    How we do that should be the biggest topic here.

  285. covered says:

    Did Andrew say that Moses was Chinese and that he had jands? Sorry, I can’t help myself 🙂

  286. HAHAHA.

    Well done, covered.

  287. “There will be some fine churches with the brand and some terrible ones as well…”

    I’m sure that is a fitting description for every denomination in the world.

  288. tbro says:

    I just now read this. If it is true that someone tried to pay to make Brian go away and purchase the pulpit of CCCM for himself, this is one of the most damnable and despicable things I have heard to date.

    Michael, I am part of a regional CCA team and I have not heard one whisper of any overthrow or retooling of the Distinctives.

    Tim Brown, Pastor
    Calvary Chapel Fremont

  289. Michael says:

    tbro,

    You are conflating two things.
    The payoff to Brodersen was a form of severance, not a purchase of the pulpit.
    As to the distinctives, in my conversations I’ve heard it repeatedly.
    As I stated, this is a huge bone of contention.

  290. Michael says:

    Josh,

    To a point, you are correct.

  291. Well, the plot thickens…with a name signed to it, no less!

  292. tbro says:

    @294 Thanks for the clarification.

  293. Xenia says:

    Ever since Luther nailed his paper on the door in the 16th century, Protestants have been dividing one from the other. It’s built into the term “protestant.” “I don’t agree with what’s going on, I have my own interpretation of Scripture, I protest, I will break away and form my own church.”

    Nothing new.

  294. Outside Looking In says:

    Did Andrew say he attended an internet church? Yet he is clamoring for all of this accountability in CC? Hmmm…

  295. parker says:

    PP Vet @228 . . . . 😉

  296. Andrew says:

    Luther is my hero. He brought back the truth that so many of us hold so dear.

  297. Chile says:

    Re: Outside looking in @229 said,

    “Did Andrew say he attended an internet church? Yet he is clamoring for all of this accountability in CC? Hmmm…”

    But when one is inside of CC calling for changes, one is told to vote with your feet … quietly. What’s one to do?

  298. Chile says:

    Pardon the interruption:

    Has anyone heard from Reuben? The National Guard and the Coast Guard were just called out for his neck of the woods. In case you haven’t heard, all of the Rocky Mountain Front Range has unusual severe flooding with some major highways closed. The area affected is from the Wyoming border to the New Mexico border, up to 9,000 feet in the Foothills.

  299. Andrew says:

    I go to real church, no Internet church.

  300. Michael says:

    Chile,

    Reuben is ok so far…just saw on Facebook.

  301. Michael says:

    Chile,

    “What’s one to do?” is the question.
    The system will not change.
    The calls have been and will be unanswered.
    My belief today is that the Body of Christ must be willing and equipped to recognize and deal with these realities and be able to find healthy churches.
    How do we do that?

  302. Andrew says:

    Not sure how you do baptisms or communion in Internet church which I don’t consider a real church at all.

  303. parker says:

    ( |o )====::: @230,

    Re: http://www.formerlyfundie.com/end-times-believers/

    A very good article, in my opinion. I think it IS spot on. My mindset was completely changed by thinking the Lord was coming back any minute back in the 70’s. My life would have been different in so many ways. For one, I wouldn’t have dropped out of college after two years. I thought, “What’s the point?”. I didn’t have any long-term goals.

    A pastor friend of mine recently said to me, “I sure wish I had that life insurance policy I cashed in back in 1974.” When I asked him why he did that, he said, “I thought the Lord was coming back”.

    That kind of mindset creeps in on you without you really realizing the full extent that it alters your thinking and behavior.

  304. crownedone1 says:

    Steve W @ 237 “it amazes me that some with legal troubles for falsehood have not yet learned the wisdom of keeping lies off their websites”

    What’s even ‘more’ amazing is that pastors serve lawsuits. Especially since Jesus expressly forbids it and tells us “it is better to be wronged”.

    Such a good opportunity to lead, turn the other cheek, forgive 70×7, love your enemies, better to be wronged, etc. etc. Nope! Sue their butts, hurt them, make them regret their decisions, destroy them.

    In fact, oftentimes when a pastor does sue, it tells me they are in the wrong immediately. Because if they are going to disregard the bible in that area…they’ve lost all credibility (to me at least) that they are not lying about the defendant.

  305. Andrew says:

    Crownedone1, Yep, couldn’t agree more. And its so sad that a comment @237 has to rub it in their face.

  306. Outside Looking In says:

    @304 My bad. I must have read you wrong earlier.

  307. Chile says:

    Re: Parker @ 308,

    I enjoyed the article. Gordon Conwell seems to help people think.

  308. Chile says:

    Thanks, Michael! I found Reuben on the prayer thread.

    How to find a healthy church? I’ve done the best I can do, but still have little understanding of how to find one in these parts. I have a visitor here who has planted churches that are still healthy after 35+ years. When we take him to churches around here to just give him an impression of what church looks like, he is saddened. Prior to visiting he could not understand why we were running into so many problems, now he understands better.

  309. Chile says:

    I’d like to say one positive comment:

    We were discussing the many challenges and corruptions of the church that we learn from history. We are amazed at how God loves the church, God ensures the survival of the church, regardless of the heart of man. It really is amazing that this thing still exists! Just wish I could be in on the flow part instead of the ebb part.

  310. Chile – re your #313 on finding a healthy church.

    Give this one a try in Aurora – the pastor is solid.

    http://www.hope-aurora.org/pages/Welcome.html

  311. that is if you are in Colorado

  312. Chile says:

    So do you know Wolfmeuller personally? His video was interesting.

  313. Chile – no I don’t know him personally, but i have listened to his interviews on Issues etc for years along with his own internet radio program. I read his quarterly journal and other of his writings – many on his web site.

    He was a Calvary Chapel guy as a younger man.

    Here, listen to this – one of my favorites

    http://issuesetc.org/guest/brian-wolfmueller/

  314. Andrew says:

    I like Brian Wolfmueller.

  315. erunner says:

    Less than a month after this article ran Pastor Chuck has passed into glory. My condolences go out to his family during this difficult time. PC was used mightily by God and I am part of the fruit from his ministry. Along the way I learned he was a man with clay feet as we all are. I will miss him greatly.

  316. Drew says:

    Everyone…pray that the board asks for the true spiritual offspring like Jack Hibbs, Jeff Johnson to speak on Sundays. Brian is not the guy….

  317. Ixtlan says:

    take a hike, Drew

  318. covered says:

    Drew’s either making a joke or he is an idiot.

  319. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    By “Moses Model” and “Emphasis on Eschatology” do you mean Absolute Pastor/Dictators and Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist?

    “The church itself is no longer the 20,000 member powerhouse it once was but the 5000 or more that do attend…”

    No matter what the CCs say, 5K attending is a MEGACHURCH and 20K a GIGACHURCH.

    “The fate of the CCA is very up in air with many in that group expecting a split into three or four different factions.”

    And so the Game of Thrones begins…

  320. American says:

    What was Chuck’s net worth when he passed away? Was it in the millions or tens of millions?

  321. Michael says:

    Tens of millions…

  322. danny iselin says:

    if you follow the money trail, as in the gospels, you’ll ALWAYS FIND A JUDAS CARRYING THE PURSE AND SELLING OUT THE SAVIOR!!!!!!!!!!!! If you didn’t realize this, YOU NEED TO GET DEEPER INTO THE WORD!!!!!

  323. Michael Ugar says:

    This movement died, along time prior to Pastor Chuck Smith’s passing into the Glory of God’s presence.
    God is doing a new work, and all of this commotion, is only wrought by those of self interest.

    Praise you Lord, we will anticipate a new revival!

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