Why Kathryn Kuhlman Still Matters

You may also like...

124 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    My apologies…I forgot to turn on the comments. Mornings are hard… 🙂

  2. Paige says:

    Kathryn Kuhlman was definitely a figure in my earliest days of being in the Faith.
    I have little tolerance for drama and production now…

    However, I have seen legit miraculous interventions by God. I have also prayed passionately and apparently “in vain”, for miracles that did not come. Or, came in forms that I would have never chosen.

    We’re on the home stretch of reading through the Bible this year. God WORKS… but not when and in ways that we would expect or hope. I have no doubt that He still does indeed answer in miraculous ways… I also know, now more than ever, that His Ways are so far beyond and above my ability to understand.

    Luke 18:8 7Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”

  3. pstrmike01 says:

    I used to watch Kulhman on TV when I was kid. She was one of the first well known church personalities that endorsed what God was doing in the younger generation at that time. I seemed to remember that she had an attitude that would ask “why not, Lord” rather than why? It was that attitude of openness that seemed to draw me, in spite of some of her outlandishness.

    A friend of mine went to one of her meetings and was knocked over when she laid hands on him. I still remember his explanation: “All I’m going to say, is that you had to be there.” I trust his discernment in the same way I trust my own. A mixed bag, for sure, but God always uses damaged goods, He has no other to work with.

  4. Em says:

    Paige @ 12:37….
    Amen …
    I suspect every honest, seasoned serious Christian can agree with you

  5. Michael says:

    I don’t see much at all…but I still hope.
    Kuhlman is a modern day “saint”..someone who lived as a Christian that represents some godly virtue that we want to represent as being possible for all.
    The miracles may be grounded in myth, but myth has its place in helping faith.

  6. DavidM says:

    Michael, as a newly-minted believer, I went to a Kathryn Kuhlman crusade in Portland, Oregon in 1970 or ’71. I was on a chartered bus from Corvallis with a couple of friends among eat busload. We sat high up in the arena. Her pianist, Dino Kartsonakis, played beautifully and led the crowd in singing of hymns. At the appointed time, out came Kathryn, resplendent in her white gown, against a dark background, the spotlight upon her. She was angelic in appearance, beaming from ear to ear. I don’t remember her “sermon” but she was a skilled and compelling speaker. When it came time to begin the healings, she would point to various sections of the arena and say things like, “Somebody in that section is being healed of bone cancer” or one of dozens of other maladies. I remember a woman in front of me gasping, believing that Kuhlman was speaking to her and her illness. At the same time, people were going up to the stage to be touched by her, followed by the inevitable falling backward, being “slain in the spirit”. A girl with me went up to be prayed for and did not fall over. She later told me that she was wanting to see if the whole thing was real and that the men who were “catchers’ tried in vain to pull her backwards. Anyway, it was quite the show. It seemed that either many got healed or nobody got healed, depending on what one wanted to believe. On the bus on the way back, I spoke with a woman who had cancer and had gone, hoping to be healed. She was at peace with what God had for her but had gone with hope and expectations.
    As I sorted it all out, and reflecting back, I can only see Kathryn Kuhlman as just another Benny Hinn, another Oral Roberts, shameless phonies who peddle false hopes to the most desperate. As you said, there has been no proof of any genuine healings. I have come to despise the “faith healers” for their manipulative and deceptive ways. Why they continue to be written about in complimentary terms baffles me.
    Having said all that, I do believe that God does heal in miraculous ways. I have personally seen it but not in a public manner, not with lights and cameras and crowds. I have been a part of it in quiet places. I will never stop praying for people who ask for prayer to be healed and will always have the belief that God just may do it. I will never doubt that God is able, but I never know if He WILL heal someone.

  7. Michael says:

    DavidM,

    Thank you for that.
    I actually know someone who believes they were healed at a Kuhlman service…and he’s still mad about it. 🙂
    Like I said, I think the mythology around people like her has been important historically in the church and is still important now…it’s a mythology that enlarges God…

  8. JD says:

    The only thing I can compare her side show to is a spooky, creepy version of Romper Room and the “magic mirror”.

  9. Em says:

    As a young child i think my nature was iconoclastic – like the boy who cried the emperor was naked – i was taken by my grandparents to hear Aimee Semple McPherson and i was not impressed… who was that screechy lady down there talking like a know it all? That said it is entirely possible that these “personality” Christians are victims also… maybe for some showboater types it is too easy to believe it when everyone tells you that you are something special? dunno …

  10. Eric says:

    I remember when a friend told me about Bentley and the Lakeland revival, exciting that God was dramatically at work. A friend of ours was even planning to go and visit – a case of wanting to see God doing things that we’ve heard of but haven’t seen. Some time later we heard he’d fallen into scandal.

    The God stuff and the not God stuff always seem to be mixed together, which isn’t what we expect when reading about good/bad trees with good/bad fruit.

    Jesus performed miracles in response to some needs he saw, while he rebuked those who came to see a miracle show. But in these days when it feels harder to believe, we want a bit of proof that the God we worship still does stuff (or even exists).

  11. Linnea says:

    Michael….I want to believe, too. Shoot, if falling on Elisha’s bones can revive the dead, why can’t we be healed?

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    In case anyone wants to watch Kathryn Kuhlman

    As a side note, back in this time period, I used to dress like Oral Roberts almost everyday. Loved the plaid pants and wide ties. 🙂

  13. Paige says:

    PstrMike01, “God always uses damaged goods, He has no other to work with.”

    No kidding.

    I have nearly 50 years of personal history as a believer in Jesus to reflect back on. I remember watching Kathryn Kuhlman tv shows with Lonnie Frisbee and even Chuck Smith..and as PstrMike01 said, Kathryn did acknowledge the Work of God’s Presence in the young folks of the Jesus Movement ‘back in the day”. It was huge.
    And, yes, ‘you had to be there”.

    I’ve always wondered why the likes of Benny Hinn hold big showy campaigns instead of going to hospitals where there are plenty of sick to heal.

    I will never stop believing in or hoping for a miraculous answer to prayers, because I KNOW God is able to “do exceedingly abundantly beyond”. Over the decades, my ability to Acquiesce and Accept His Will, not mine, has grown precisely because of the ‘unanswered’ prayers.

    The just shall live by faith.

  14. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    As a very young and impressionable Jewish boy who would tune into LA tv on Sunday evening, I loved Kathryn Kuhlman…that is, until my mother informed me that Dino (who I thought was Liberace since they both had candelabra on their pianos) wasn’t Liberace but according to her was a cheap imitation, which crushed me. I did however love her wispy dresses and they way she pronounced “God-a”

    Thereafter it was Oscar Meyer’s Polka Parade hosted by Dick Sinclair for me. Who would have guessed I’d wind up marrying a Polish gal who was Catholic and that a few years later I’d give my life to Jesus.

    Like it or not, I do know people who were saved or healed at a Benny Hinn meeting. No news that God chooses the foolish to confound the wise. Shoot, He even used me at times.

  15. “A girl with me went up to be prayed for and did not fall over. She later told me that she was wanting to see if the whole thing was real and that the men who were “catchers’ tried in vain to pull her backwards.”

    That happened to me at a small Pentecostal church. I was 15 or 16 and one of the co preachers had driven me, so I had no way home. They meant well, to take a kid to church whose mom didn’t want to (I don’t remember what she was doing otherwise that day) . I finally went with it because I realized I wasn’t going to get out of it otherwise.

  16. brian says:

    Well let me share my few thoughts, I had some experience with Mrs Kuhlman back when I first really leaned or hoped to lean on Christ, a position I am often ashamed of because a true follower of Jesus, should never ever no matter what ever need Jesus. (That trope is an entire book). I had prayed a few times for personal needs, to my eternal shame, the first time I had just gotten burned and was sitting in a bathtub watching my skin float up and the searing pain while my brother told me the story of the tree bears. I remember, as much as possible begging God to take the pain away, He did not in His divine wisdom I did not get even one iota of deliverance from the pain. My doctor told me most people go into shock or block out this for some reason I did not and remember every single second. (In my evangelical experience when I broached this subject was because, even at six I was looking for a way to get attention because I was/am pathetic). During the Debridement of the wounds I remember praying as well, the pain was excruciating and there was absolutely no relief at all, not one time, ever. I was so bitter against God, but later I began to understand, first I was not burned on my face, if one needs to get burned I was injured there. I was lucky for an insurance lady that backdated some forms, I was blessed to have parents that would abandon me. The most important it made me a better teacher, to understand their pain I can slightly understand what the folks I work with go through in some small way. As pathetic as this sounds in made me understand in some very very small insignificant way the pain Christ suffered. I cant even imagine what He went through.

    Back to it the brother who told me the three bears story died a few years later, I thought being burned hurt, losing a sibling was far more painful. I remember every little aspect of that day. (From my evangelical family I remembered all this is because I want attention, and I am a pathetic emotionalistic sinner. ) That is a recurring theme in my evangelical experience. I buried all of my family saved one, I was their primary or secondary care provider, I got through three of those loses with no crying at funerals or showing grief, another gift from my evangelical experience.

    I agree this is disgusting but after my brothers death I went to a nice church to seek some eternal understanding, I have come to understand church is the last place to discuss issues like death, faith, God, redemption, salvation, etc. We are on our own, always. I got caught up in the Satanic Panic stuff of the 70’s, I agree we should have all that stuff nailed down in the backyard even at such young age. Well it left me rather empty, which is on me alone.

    I eventually became an official Christian back in 1980 and was baptized, I jumped in with both feet, I wanted to see people saved, etc. I agree it was disgusting because I was/am a false convert, ie a spiritual abortion as was explained to me. Then by the grace of God I started working at the state facility for people with dev dis. As repugnant as this sounds this is when I began to beg God for healing for people, to my eternal shame, we should never ask God for anything other than He does not kill us. No one was ever healed, given even a single bit of rest, ever, well not ever they did find some peace in the Catholic Mass, so many of the folks at the state facility found great peace in the Catholic mass. As was explained to me it was because they were full of demons and the catholic mass is of Satan. When one seeks peace, even for an hour who cares it is finding peace that matters on this plain for that day. If that makes sense?

    I will be honest when I saw Kuhlman was on a video with chuck smith and Lonnie Frisbee the real view came up, she was a deeply troubled person with profound mental health issues, Smith was in the industry breaking into new markets and Lonnie was, well a broken human hoping to find a way home. Of course Lonnie was also a future market for the industry, when he stopped being a market share he was cast off. Shame on Chuck Smith for that, but being a universalist Mr. Smith and all these other broken hearts restored by God through Christ. We all can rejoice, I call that good news. Very Good News.

  17. Steve says:

    I think there maybe a misunderstanding of “universalism” here or being a “universalist”. If it means there are going to be God hating, Jesus denying atheists and Satan worshipers and sold out idolatry worshipping pagans in heaven, folks here claiming universalism here are sorely mistaken and are believing a lie. The Bible speaks of no sort of universalism that I just described. If on the other hand universalism means that the gospel should be offered to everyone than I can agree. Please define what being a universalist means.

  18. Michael says:

    Steve,

    It means Jesus came to seek and save the lost…”God hating, Jesus denying atheists and Satan worshipers and sold out idolatry worshipping pagans”…it believes that some day, some way all things will be reconciled in Christ and He will be all in all.
    There are various flavors of it,various ways to reconcile all the Scriptures, but that’s the main thrust of it.
    It is speculative theology, but most eschatology is.
    I could recommend a couple books on the subject, but that seems to cause great offense…

  19. Steve says:

    Michael,. I have little interest or time studying speculative theology that on the surface as well as deep in it’s core appear to ouright contradict the words of Jesus and Paul and the majority of the historic church. But thank you anyway.

  20. Michael says:

    Steve,
    In that case I suggest you cease commenting on something you choose to remain uninformed on.

  21. Steve says:

    Michael,. I asked for clarity really on how Brian was using the word universalism. Now I know.

  22. Michael says:

    I don’t know exactly how Brian was using the word…he’s just hopeful that all will somehow be “saved”.

    I, on the other hand, dread heaven if some of the “Christians” I know will be there…talk about eternal torment…

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t think either Jesus or Paul left this topic up for speculation. I think they were clear – crystal clear.
    I see nowhere when addressing the 5 foolish virgins or the goats where Jesus gives a smile, a wink and says “but I think you will be pleased by the final outcome.”
    However, perhaps others do see it.
    But alas, I am getting a 2nd day in a row out on my boat. 🙂

  24. Michael says:

    There are solid theological, scriptural, and philosophical reasons to consider universal reconciliation.
    If someone wants to engage with those (having studied a minimal amount of material) then this discussion may bear profit.
    Otherwise…it won’t.

  25. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    You assume those who disagree have not studied the topic.
    At least for me, I studied diligently throughout the 80s and early 90s especially as I took my masters in apologetics.
    This has pretty much been put to rest although it does somewhat resemble the game of whack-a-mole where it keeps popping up at various times and various places and good theologians clobber it on the head.

  26. Michael says:

    i assume a lack of study as I have yet to see anyone engage with the arguments being put forth by people like Parry and Hart.
    General dismissal of a topic is something I find less than compelling…

  27. Xenia says:

    I could recommend a couple books on the subject, but that seems to cause great offense…<<<

    It only causes offense when you say we can't enter into a discussion about universalism unless we've read *those particular* books.

  28. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Those books lay out theological, scriptural, and philosophical arguments that I haven’t seen elsewhere.
    One is Orthodox, one is evangelical, and both are careful.
    Without those understandings we find ourselves debating things that aren’t being debated at all by the authors.
    If one wants to understand Calvin, Luther, or the patristic fathers, one has to actually read their work.
    I find this to be true with all theologians.
    I understand that those groups that have a teaching magesterium have to reject them out of hand.
    I have no such authority over me and I think the ideas being presented are worthy of discussion…but if we are going to argue against caricatures, it’s pointless.

  29. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, I had a long conversation yesterday with a guy from the Hebrew Roots movement. We spoke for at least an hour, let me tell you I was not compelled at all to run out and buy books written by the Hebrew Roots people to find out if those could possibly be true. I pointed him just to scrrupture.

  30. Xenia says:

    One is Orthodox<<<<

    Hart's take on universalism is considered heretical by the Orthodox Church.

  31. Xenia says:

    MLD is right. There are a lot of heresies in the world, I am confronted with people who have heretical ideas about Christianity all the time. They all have books they believe I should read. That is not how I choose to live my life in Christ, by being carried away by winds of doctrines: read this, consider that.

    That’s all I’m going to say on this. This topic caused too much angst the last time it was visited.

  32. Xenia says:

    I am not calling you a heretic, Michael. Just to be clear!

  33. Steve says:

    If one wants to understand Calvin, Luther, or the patristic fathers, one has to actually read their work.
    ______________________________________

    Absolutely true. And there really is no better source for theology than reading Jesus and Paul’s work.

  34. Duane Arnold says:

    Just as a comment… I’ve had to struggle with the issue of universalism owing to my study of the Church Fathers. The Alexandrine school – Origen and Clement of Alexandria in particular – advocated various forms of Apocatastasis, as did Gregory of Nyssa. I have no set views on what is, as Michael said, speculative theology, but I take the writings of the Fathers seriously and worthy of consideration, even if not always of acceptance. I’m not sure, however, that the embracing of a “greater hope” or of “God’s wider mercy” is something to be opposed as an enemy of faith. When I contemplate the icon of the Harrowing of Hell, I’ve always noted that Christ is the prime mover in dragging Adam and Eve out of Hades… they actually look a little “shell shocked”. Maybe CS Lewis is right when he says the lock on the door of hell is on the inside…

  35. Jean says:

    “I’m not sure, however, that the embracing of a “greater hope” or of “God’s wider mercy” is something to be opposed as an enemy of faith.”

    I don’t know what stands in someone’s mind behind the phrase “enemy of faith.”

    For me, faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Therefore, the word of Christ creates and sustains my faith. Other words do not. Moreover, if I am listening to other words, then I am not listening to the faith-giving and faith-sustaining words of Christ.

  36. Em says:

    Why can’t we just rest in the fact that God is holy – complete in all aspects of virtue and power?
    He directs in His Book, be born again… in the here and now with all that hangs on that and then just leave the eternal sorting to him…. 😇

  37. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I’m glad you have the formula down.
    In my world, Christ speaks through many people and words, including, but not limited to, Scripture.

    I believe in the Gospel as declared in the New Testament…the incarnation, the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.
    Those are dogmatic beliefs.
    I also hold loosely the hope of universal reconciliation through Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ, that He will be all in all in all things.
    This is a hope, not a dogma, a possibility based on Scripture, a speculation based on the love of a Savior that falls short of being a doctrine because of the tradition of the church.
    If that makes me a heretic I’ll wear the tee shirt and buy a hat as well.

  38. Jean says:

    Michael,

    We live in the same world. We have the same Scriptures.

    Matthew 25 says that there are people who are “cursed,” going “into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” A few verse later Jesus concludes his teaching of final judgment with: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    This Scripture, along with others regarding final judgment, is not a formula. They are the words of Christ. I choose to believe them. They need no Bible scholar to explain them to me. But I’m not here passing judgment on anyone. I’m not even arguing.

  39. Michael says:

    Jean,

    That is a difficult passage for those who hope for universal reconciliation…the most difficult, actually.
    I believe there may be other ways to interpret it based on a holistic view of the Scriptures.
    You don’t.
    To be blunt, I don’t really care.
    Wrestling with these issues is important to me.
    I’m still looking for the one handed, one eyed person who takes all the words of Jesus literally…

  40. Steve says:

    I’m having an aha moment. I honestly think maybe we all throw around the word “hell” too cavelierly. I’m guilty of this myself. If Hell is really as bad as Jesus said and the worm dieth not and the fire not quenched we need to take this subject with utmost sincerity and probably not joke about it. Also if it is as serious as Jesus said, all I can say is thank you Jesus for actually taking the punishment for me. And if hell is as serious as Jesus said, Sinning against a Holy God is probably worse than I can imagine. And if Hell is really as bad as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus then I only can give thanks Jesus saved me. I believe all this about hell because these are the words of Jesus recorded and preserved in the Bible and somehow Jesus took the wrath and punishment of this awful Hell on himself. It’s the best news and it’s awesome news that We don’t have to go to hell. Jesus paid for this penalty himself. No, we really shouldn’t joke about hell knowing our savior somehow suffered it. It’s quite a mystery.

  41. Michael says:

    I believe that hell is a reality.
    I also believe that Jesus desires all men to be saved and in the end Jesus gets what He desires…possibly…

  42. Michael says:

    “We live in the same world. We have the same Scriptures.”
    Yes, but we interpret those Scriptures radically differently.
    The difference is that you are sure that your interpretation is entirely correct and I find that claim to be alternately amusing and irritating.
    I was once one of the surest of the Truly Reformed.
    I’m well aware that I might be wrong about some things…I just don’t know what all those things are at the moment.

  43. Jean says:

    My comment at 10:35 am includes NO interpretation. Here is the text:

    “Matthew 25 says that there are people who are “cursed,” going “into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” A few verse later Jesus concludes his teaching of final judgment with: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    “This Scripture, along with others regarding final judgment, is not a formula. They are the words of Christ. I choose to believe them. They need no Bible scholar to explain them to me. But I’m not here passing judgment on anyone. I’m not even arguing.”

  44. Michael says:

    All Scripture requires translation and interpretation.
    Period.

  45. Jean says:

    That may be true, but I didn’t interpret Jesus words. I said I believe them.

    I specifically did not interpret them, so as not to get in an argument over their meaning. I would ask you lower your hostility level. I mean you no ill will.

  46. Michael says:

    Do you “believe” this or interpret it?

    “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.”
    (Matthew 5:27–30 ESV)

  47. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    It is possible to “believe” the words of Christ and also to “hope”. Ask anyone of us here who have sat at the deathbed of a beloved father, or brother, or son, or daughter who, while baptized, may not have ever expressed their faith… at least, not that we knew of… Hope and belief are not mutually exclusive.

  48. Michael says:

    Lutherans believe you can be lost after you convert…do you “believe” this or interpret it?

    “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
    (John 6:37–39 ESV)

  49. bob1 says:

    All Scripture requires translation and interpretation.
    Period.

    Yes. Scripture didn’t just drop down from heaven. They need to be interpreted.

    The Scriptures point to Jesus. Without that balance, we become tempted to treat the
    Bible as a magic book.

    “Scripture (as Luther used to say) is the manger or cradle in which the infant Jesus lies.” (John Stott).

    We should not be bibliolators. And of course those in the Church will wrestle with these issues.
    Big deal.

  50. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    People hope that leprechauns and the pot of gold are true also – so?

  51. Michael says:

    “People hope that leprechauns and the pot of gold are true also – so?”
    This is the type of dismissive scorn that tempts me to block you on a regular basis.
    This is the attitude that creates nothing but strife.
    It assumes that the hope that Duane and I spoke of has no more basis in scripture, tradition, or reason than “leprechauns and the pot of gold”.
    It assumes that those who are interested in serious study of a matter are no more well read than those who believe in children’s fables or mythology.
    It has no place on this site anymore.

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – we can point to the warning passages from Jesus’ own words so at the very least we have a difference to hash out in context.

    But when it comes to eternal judgement, do you have words from Jesus that say anything close to “all will eventually end up in heaven”?

  53. Michael says:

    “Michael – we can point to the warning passages from Jesus’ own words so at the very least we have a difference to hash out in context.”

    I believe we call that “interpretation”…

    “But when it comes to eternal judgement, do you have words from Jesus that say anything close to “all will eventually end up in heaven”?”

    Are you a “red letter Christian” now?…G will be pleased.
    I can make a case for “hope”, not for dogma, with a host of other Scriptures I’ve posted before.

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, even your John 6 passage indicates that some are not given to Jesus for salvation.

  55. Michael says:

    The Scriptures are laden with paradoxical teachings…which doesn’t bother me.
    It’s why I can be ecumenical in a place where the various groups believe the others teach some form of heresy…and why the table is open to all baptized believers who want to partake in our church.

  56. Em says:

    From Steve’s aha moment… Knowing the price paid to offer redemption to us, hell IS not a trivial item …
    brian’s description of being severely burned as a child is heartbreaking… Do we have trouble holding on to the fact that Satan (all the names that describe him) is our adversary now? No honest person can say this world is a good place today. Even though there is strong evidence of God’s design and provision, the lion will eat you and you may have a neighbor who wishes you harm, also.
    I once heard a devout R.C. priest observe that the devil truly does afflict anyone who is serious about sharing their redemption in Christ. Yes, there is a prosperity that accompanies redemption, but is it material?
    I heard Kenneth Copland say that when we return with Christ, if we were part of the raptured contingent, our material goods – bank accounts etc. – will be waiting for us when we return. Say what! ! ! 😵. Maybe he’s retracted that – dunno
    And i read in Revelation (the interpretation i accept) that after a millennial reign of King Jesus, Satan will be able to assemble an army of earthly rulers who, again, want Jesus dead and gone… It does seem that there are irredeemable rebels among us.
    God knows, i’ll just have to wait and see. 🙆

  57. Duane Arnold says:

    “People hope that leprechauns and the pot of gold are true also – so?”

    Insightful, persuasive, erudite and filled with potential for adult discussion… not.

  58. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well I too believe the scriptures are full of paradoxical statements. This is why it is important to understand the proper distinction of law and gospel. We can believe that a person is fully saved and protected by Jesus (gospel) and at the same time agree that the same person can walk away from that salvation (law – as seen in the warning passages).
    However, unlike you, we do draw the line at allowing heresy to invade our table – even if it is only “some form of heresy.”

  59. Jean says:

    Duane,

    “It is possible to “believe” the words of Christ and also to “hope”.”

    Yes, hope is biblical. No doubt about that. But I don’t hope that the Bible is wrong or that Jesus isn’t trustworthy.

    I hope that everything he has said and promises comes true. I hope that Jesus keeps me and other believers in Him eternally. I hope that He converts as many unbelievers as He so desires. I hope He curbs evil and allows His Christians to live peaceable, quiet lives.

    With everything God has done for mankind, I am thankful and do not question whether He has done enough or whether what He has accomplished for mankind is the wisest course of action. When I suffer, I hope that He will come to my aid.

  60. Duane Arnold says:

    Jean

    …And when I sit by that deathbed, I hope in the mercy of God.

  61. Steve says:

    I’m not convinced universalism is heresy but I am convinced that all the he other major doctrines that it links to are in danger of being diluted, currupted and distorted in trying to synthesize this doctrine with any other doctrine. So to me it can actually be more dangerous than a single heresy. Jesus’ over the top metamoriphical warning about hell needs no other interpretation other than take warning. The eye and limb amputation only point to how very serious this is. The proper interpretation is there is no part of us without sin. There would never be enough body parts to cut off before we realize how sinful we are.

  62. Michael says:

    “The proper interpretation is there is no part of us without sin.”

    To my knowledge that is the first time in church history that interpretation has been used for that verse.
    Unique…

  63. Michael says:

    “However, unlike you, we do draw the line at allowing heresy to invade our table – even if it is only “some form of heresy.””

    To my knowledge no heresy has “invaded my table”…we do talk about different ideas and think them through…we don’t require a lobotomy for membership…

  64. Michael says:

    Again, I’m not trying to convert anybody and even in discussions about this idea I preface it with a caution about bucking traditional teachings on the matter.
    It’s speculative, not dogmatic…and there is a huge difference between the two.

  65. Steve says:

    Michael, I have heard it in more than one sermon so it’s not unique to me.

  66. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I’d worry about that if I were you…

  67. Em says:

    Law and gospel… convenient terms…
    A dichotomy in God’s dealing with our race… The Church is – IMV – an incredible and uniquely tasked group in the flow of human history… If one worries about losing their salvation, reread the account of the seeds… And claim the second chapter of 1st Peter
    IMV again, if you walk away (not the same as straying or wandering) you did not take root in the rich, good soil… why? that i can’t say…. I suspect pride or rebellion in there somewhere, though… dunno, though, do i? 😏

  68. Jean says:

    The warning passages are not in Scripture to cause worry, but to cause repentance.

    A theology which keeps someone in the dark their entire life about whether or not they took root in the good soil seems cruel to me. How prevalent is this theology?

  69. Steve says:

    Jean, I’m with you. Not sure what there is to worry about when we have the gospel. These warning passages should cause one to repent. Jesus equating lusting after a women with the act of adultery takes the cake for me. Guilty as charged. Guess what, I can close my eyes and still lust. Its really common sense that ripping out my eye would do absolutely nothing. The problem is with my heart not my eye.

  70. Jean says:

    Steve,

    The interesting thing about the lusting passage in the Sermon on the Mount is that our right and left eyes do not typically work independently, as if one would lost while the other would not. So, plucking one out wouldn’t solve the problem.

    Moreover, Jesus says later “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” So that appears to be the root of the problem. As you noted, one can lust with their eyes closed.

    Jerome reportedly said that even after he castrated himself, he still lusted. I don’t know if that is a true report or legend.

    One commentator says that tearing out the eye and cutting off the hand refer to excommunication, so that the body is saved. In his view, adultery is a vary divisive and dangerous sin to allow to be permitted in a congregation, because it causes division and breaks communion.

  71. bob1 says:

    I only heard of Origen doing this sad deed.

    Good argument for sound exegesis. 🙂

  72. Duane Arnold says:

    Bob1

    Yes, it was Origen… perhaps.

  73. pstrmike says:

    Thanks Paige. It was an incredible time, and I wish that there were more long term fruit that came out forth from it. Such a mixed bag.

    I wonder whether any type of revival, particularly those that embody fringe Pentecostal perspectives can sustain themselves. I’m learning to have a sense of peace toward that time and the tribe who emerged from it. The words of Oscar Romero have helped:

    “It helps, now and then, to step back and take the long view.
    The kingdom is not only beyond our efforts, it is even beyond our vision.
    We accomplish in our lifetime only a tiny fraction of the magnificent enterprise that is God’s work.
    Nothing we do is complete, which is another way of saying that the kingdom always lies beyond us.”

    Peace.

    Duane,
    Perhaps. 😉

  74. Steve says:

    Thanks Jean. Awesome commentary!

  75. Duane Arnold says:

    pstrmike

    A wonderful quote…

  76. Em says:

    Jean @ 1:46 if you have taken root (pretty sure you have done so), there is no wondering about it… one doesn’t live one’s life thinking, “gee, what if i’m not really saved?” There is a life and a hunger in you, even if you’re are doctrinally confused, that keeps you returning to learn, to feed, to gain more knowledge of this mystery… and, i think, to share the wonders as folk do here…

  77. MM says:

    When many preached or talk of Hell it seems to me these ideas continuously are brought up:

    1. Hell is a punishment.
    2. Hell is God’s way of getting even for me, the righteous.
    3. We can’t have Heaven without Hell.
    4. It is used to scare people into a confession.

    Do I “believe” there is some sort of Hell? Yes and scripture seems to confirm it up.

    Do I “believe” in universal salvation or escape from Hell? I would like to, but there are too many narratives in the scripture which negate such ideas.

    In the end what I see is a completely merciful, just and loving God who would like for all of His creation to voluntarily love Him. However, there are just too many examples of those who don’t.

    Heaven isn’t some reward for doing what it is good, I see it as life walking with Him and what happens after the body’s death is just an extension of what has already begun. So why would a person who never acknowledges Him in this life change in the next?

    I am amazed at the popularity and common discussions each generation seems to have about “universalism.” Maybe it reflects a bit of compassion for others.

  78. Steve says:

    MM good word,. I think Duane’s example of sitting by on someone’s deathbed is a perfect example of the mercy and love of God praying and petitioning the Lord for a soul passing to the next life. It’s a wonderful gift for those that do this. However, I doubt Duane does the same thing at a graveyard of a pagan that has passed away thousands of years ago hoping and praying that the Lord grants repentance to the deceased.

  79. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve,

    Unlike Dante I am not a guide to the fate of previous generations while touring the seven circles…

  80. Michael says:

    “However, I doubt Duane does the same thing at a graveyard of a pagan that has passed away thousands of years ago hoping and praying that the Lord grants repentance to the deceased.”

    There are dead “pagans” who I ask God almost daily to have mercy on.
    Two in particular…who were far better people than I am and much better than many prominent Christians who get in on the basis of transacting the magic formulae.
    One gets the sense here that many want to maintain the exclusiveness of a private club by not letting “those people” in…

  81. JoelG says:

    “Behold, I am making all things new.”

    All things….

    There’s a lot of hope in these words.

  82. Michael says:

    There is no doubt that the weight of church tradition weighs heavily against universal reconciliation.
    That can’t be minimized.
    However, as speculative theology and a heart felt hope there is enough biblical and philosophical ground to make it a possibility, unless your choice of authority rules it completely out.
    Mine doesn’t…so acknowledging the the love of God for all and my own love for some who didn’t believe…I’m going to hold on to that hope.
    If that makes me a heretic to some…so be it.

  83. Steve says:

    There are dead “pagans” who I ask God almost daily to have mercy on.
    Two in particular…who were far better people than I am and much better than many prominent Christians who get in on the basis of transacting the magic formulae.
    One gets the sense here that many want to maintain the exclusiveness of a private club by not letting “those people” in…
    ___________’____________________________________

    So you are praying for the deceased good pagans that you want God to have mercy on? Trying to understand here. Why stop there? Why not pray for the deceased BAD pagans?

  84. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Here’s the thing – universalism / universal reconciliation etc has been totally rejected by the Christian church.
    I don’t know of (and I could be wrong) of any affiliation of Christian churches that hold to universalims / universal reconciliation. I ask, can anyone point to a group of Christian churches that list universalism / universal reconciliation in their confessions or even in their statement of faith? Do we know of any grouping of churches who preach universalism / universal reconciliation from their pulpits or teach universalism / universal reconciliation in their classes or better yet teach universalism / universal reconciliation in their seminaries?

    You can call it “speculative” theology and compare it to eschatology , but churches do take a stand on their position and do list their eschatology views in their confessions / statements of faith, teach their view from the pulpit and teach it in their classes and seminaries – no one does this for the “speculative theology of universalims / universal reconciliation.

    In the churches today, there are any number of heterodox or heretical thoughts and theologies taught – are the first chapters of Genesis literal, women in the pulpit, the ranking of god’s in the trinity, baptism debates, the efficacy of the Lord’s Supper – you name it it is stated, even boldly stated in churches and their literature — but no one trots out universalims / universal reconciliation.

    We see this only in the mental gymnastics of book writers. Why is that?

  85. Jean says:

    Part of the issue is that there are two different perspectives on what is “good.” God looks on mankind and doesn’t find any “good” pagans. We look around and see good pagans. Theologians distinguish between righteousness coram deo (before God) vs. coram mundo (before the world).

    This distinction in perspectives becomes problematic if man projects onto God man’s judgment of what is good.

  86. Em says:

    Spinning (extrapolating, maybe) off of Jean’s 9:35…
    God hates pride and many do pride themselves on being good people, compassionate, tolerant, giving… I have known some lovely Mormons in this regard, but don’t you dare disrespect the tenents of their Faith (IMV a cleaned up version of Masonry).
    God looks on our hearts and i suppose it is possible that some sheep “led astray” will surprise us up there. And some who come to Eternity with their long list of “good” may find that they’ve arrived with a bag of rags…
    The whole mystery of God taking dust, forming these incredible bodies we live in and THEN breathing life into them is His business. We well may find quite a surprise as to the role we have played. The why of us is yet to be explained, but i do suspect it to be very serious indeed…..
    Foolish confounding the wise…. The power of God made perfect in weakness (not sinfulness, i don’t think…)
    Dunno, though, do i. 😇
    God keep

  87. Michael says:

    “So you are praying for the deceased good pagans that you want God to have mercy on? Trying to understand here. Why stop there? Why not pray for the deceased BAD pagans?”

    Like most people, I pray for those I love and care for…usually people that I have some relationship with.

    This isn’t hypothetical for me.
    Yesterday they found the body of a girl that my godson went to tai kwon do class with.
    Sweet kid…ironically, she didn’t do well in class because the violence and aggression were so against her nature.
    Ironic…because she was brutally murdered by a roommate.
    20 years old.
    No profession of faith or stated interest in religion.
    Living “in sin”.
    Some of you may be comfortable assigning her to the fires of eternal hell.
    I can’t stand such a thought even passing through my mind.
    The first question T asked when hearing the news was whether or not she was with Christ…of course she is…and we’ll pray for her soul.
    That may make me a false teacher and a heretic…but I could care less about the judgments of men.

  88. Michael says:

    “This distinction in perspectives becomes problematic if man projects onto God man’s judgment of what is good.”

    The problem with that is unless we have some idea of what is good and more importantly what is love, then all the biblical analogies mean absolutely nothing.

  89. Jean says:

    Before God, faith in Christ is what is good. Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

    Faith receives Jesus Christ, who is our righteousness and sanctification before God.

    We in Christ, and Christ in us, by faith, is our only good.

    The righteous by faith will live.

  90. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I know all the formulas and all the doctrines.
    I don’t need lectures on either.
    However, I’m also a pastor, a parent, and a human being…and sometimes what we really need is mercy, hope, and love.
    You may consider that a damning weakness…but I really don’t care.

  91. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Some of you may be comfortable assigning her to the fires of eternal hell.”
    This is your straw mam in this whole discussion. You accuse us for something we don’t think of as even possible – I do not know of a single Christian who thinks they have a vote in the eternal destiny of another person. In other words, you make false accusations to elevate your position.

  92. Michael says:

    MLD,
    I didn’t say you did…but it is the conclusion one must consider under your theology.
    I’m not attacking anyone with a traditional view of hell and damnation.
    I’m simply saying that it is inadequate for me in light of a number of biblical and philosophical matters.
    If that offends you…be offended.

  93. Michael says:

    Furthermore…Christians have been making judgments about the eternal destinies of not only non believers, but fellow Christians,for centuries…

  94. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am not offended by your position at all. It’s nonsense as I pointed out above at 9:22.

    You may be working through this from a philosophical point of view, but not a biblical one. But you are definitely entitled to your opinion.

  95. Michael says:

    It’s a biblical one as well.
    Again, for the record. I’m not rejecting the traditional doctrine as being nonsense or even error.
    I’m certainly not attacking those who hold to it in light of the tradition of the church.
    I am saying “for me” there are plausible theological, philosophical, and biblical reasons to hope for a more merciful and loving God than we have been taught about and hope that all is not eternally lost for those who haven’t followed the formulae and doctrines of the tradition.

  96. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I am saying “for me” – I understand this is “for you” – my point is that no church body has ever held to your “for me” position. I think there is a reason for that beyond “tradition.”

  97. Jean says:

    Michael,

    You subtly attack traditional Christian doctrine when you introduce the term “formulae.” That is not how a traditional Christian describes their own doctrine of justification by faith.

    Moreover, you imply that traditional Christianity teaches a God that is not loving enough for a pastor, parent or human being to be able to discuss the death of an unbeliever by the teaching of traditional Christianity.

    Can a traditional Christian be a loving pastor, parent and human being through faith in the traditional Christian doctrines?

    Is the God of traditional Christian doctrines a loving enough God for 21st Century America?

    These are not gotcha questions, but maybe a mirror of how your opinions of traditional Christianity are read by traditional Christians.

  98. Michael says:

    “I am saying “for me” – I understand this is “for you” – my point is that no church body has ever held to your “for me” position.”

    I haven’t seen anyone dispute that.

  99. Michael says:

    Jean,

    “You subtly attack traditional Christian doctrine when you introduce the term “formulae.” That is not how a traditional Christian describes their own doctrine of justification by faith.”

    I don’t mean to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the majority of traditional Christians through history haven’t believed in justification by faith.

    I’m sorry (but not very) that you read my thoughts that way.

    I’ve been very clear about what I think and why and that I’m not attacking anyone with traditional beliefs about hell.

    I thought it was a topic worth exploring in light of the discussions in many places about David Bentley Hart’s book and my own re-examination of the doctrine of hell.

    You don’t…but it’s my blog.

  100. Michael says:

    As to your other “gotcha” questions… I think anyone who loses a child or loved one that wasn’t a believer is going to hope that God has mercy on the one loved.
    To do otherwise …is beyond me.
    That hope is going to be in opposition to stated doctrines and confessions…but they will hope anyway.
    I have met those who didn’t hope for a “lost” loved one…and they were miserable people in most ways…

  101. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This reminds me so much of the philosophy of Rachel Held Evans in her book Inspired. She was doing much work with Brian Zahnd a progressive pastor.
    Her schitck was that you used instinct, intuition and personal conscience to form your critical thinking and override the Bible as authority. Her reasoning was that when we use the Bible as authority then we are forced to suspend instinct, intuition and personal conscience – in other words, she saw that as polar opposite positions.

    This was for a teaching to young people to show how you develop faith statements that overcome biblical authority on such issues as biblical sexuality, their view of the Bible, the atonement – whatever etc.

    Brian Zahnd was one who even today continues to claim the Bible is inspired but when pressed what he means is that it is inspired like a C.S. Lewis book is inspired.

  102. Em says:

    My son once asked me about people who never heard the gospel, did that consign them to hell?
    Two things came to mind – it did mean they were not part of the Church, but beyond that, short of rejecting the gospel, i suspected that God would not condemn you for what you’d never heard…
    That said, one who knows what that crucifixion represented and rejects it (because they met some Believers who were offensive or ?) … do you really want that person to get a free pass into the Eternal presence of God, the God Who so loved the world…. ?
    My grandfather began his walk with God as a Holiness Pentecostal after a miraculous healing at the turn of the last century. His brothers witnesses what happened, but scorned it as a miracle. They then had a lifetime to observe their brother, his Christian integrity and went to their graves denying both the healing and the Faith. One joined the Rosecrucians (sp?)… Pleasant human beings? Yes! But Gospel deniers! I cut them no slack, but God knows, He knows their hearts. I suspect evil hearts of unbelief, but ….
    That nice person who has passed, you worry and grieve over… Would you, if on their deathbed they had called your mother, wife or sister a whore?

  103. Steve says:

    I do not know of a single Christian who thinks they have a vote in the eternal destiny of another person. In other words, you make false accusations to elevate your position.
    _________________________________________________________________
    MLD, in Michael’s defense I do sometimes come across these folks especially in the reformed camp that I come from. One guy in our fellowship was saying his mother was burning forever and ever in hell. I got annoyed at him for saying this. I’m sure he loved his mother when she was alive and I said how can you possible be sure right now that she is in hell. He was convinced. This was very disturbing to me since only God knows where someone is. Also not to mention, I don’t think anyone is in hell right now. I think that will have to wait until the final judgement. So I think this guy in his mind was playing god. I let me know what I was thinking. So Michael is right, there are folks that seem to know those who are suffering in hell right now. I think its deficient theology that causes people to think this way. I honestly think these people that put people in hell have a god complex and think they are god themselves.

  104. JoelG says:

    “That nice person who has passed, you worry and grieve over… Would you, if on their deathbed they had called your mother, wife or sister a whore?”

    Jesus tells us to “bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.”

  105. bob1 says:

    Also…God isn’t bound by time, is He? Did he not create it?

    So, how do we know our prayers for someone who’s gone before us (for example) or after us,
    that God couldn’t answer them?

  106. Em says:

    JoelG, i was speaking of the already dead, not a living person who insults me or mine… 🙂

    There really is Scripture that would indicate that once you are dead your fate is sealed, i.e., “it is appointed unto man once to die and after this judgement.” … so i don’t really know if praying for the dead (physically dead) is efficacious … we can certainly hope that another, now gone from us, somehow managed to find grace – saving grace… but i think the time to pray for them is while they are alive
    one key is to not do so (pray) from a lofty perch of self righteousness… over my life i think of a few pastors who i criticized much more than i prayed for… my own mother was dishonest and could be very mean and i did not pray for her enough and yet i still have hope that she accepted God’s redemption before passing… but pray for her now? not sure that works, not sure at all… not sure enough to waste prayer time on the dead rather than the living who need Christ or strength in the here and now…

  107. JoelG says:

    Em… I see.

    I guess I don’t see a distinction regarding the posture of our hearts towards those who “curse” or “mistreat” us whether they are bodily present or not.

    I also can’t help but ask God to forgive those I know who seemingly died outside the faith, whether it does any good or not.

    An interesting quote from C.S. Lewis I read recently:

    ”Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him?“

  108. Ej says:

    Best ever post imo on here in ages. Kuhlman set the bar for demonstrating real miracles B4 the masses, without the hype and begging for shekels.

  109. No such thing as faith healing. Follow the guidelines set out in torah and live a healthy lifestyle of healing the world,

  110. Em says:

    JoelG, i wasn’t very clear – i apologize
    And i didn’t make my point either… sigh

    My point was, do we appreciate our Holy triune God enough to be jealous for His reputation? As jealous as we would be if a dear family member was insulted… A loved one knows the Gospel, dies rejecting it, is there another chance? I don’t think so….
    Now, if the Church does not do its job here in time, perhaps defined by the first two of the ten commandments, if we by an attitude turn seeking souls away from the gospel, what then? I truly don’t know how God handles that. But God help us if we are guilty of that.
    God keep

  111. Em says:

    Arthur, Matt 9:22, Mark 10:52. … among others.

  112. JoelG says:

    Em no apology necessary. I can be thick headed at times. It’s my bad.

    That’s a good question and point. Perhaps we can look to at Jesus’ prayer on the cross for those who crucified Him: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.“

    Then there’s Stephen, who, while being stoned for witnessing of Christ to those who persecuted Him, prayed “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

    All we can do is love them and ask God to forgive them and leave the rest to His perfect justice and mercy.

  113. Em says:

    Amen Joel, amen

  114. Babylon's Dread says:

    I am late to the discussion but I see Kuhlman pretty much got left at the gate. She is more a part of my world now than she ever was then. I actually used a video with her in it in my teaching this week.

    Healing is a normal part of Christian ministry in many places. The response to healing now is not much different than the response in Jesus day, some are amazed, some doubt, some deny and some refuse to entertain even the notion.

    I am always wondering what the threshold for credulity is. Most people won’t accept a person’s testimony or a testimony confirmed by a witness. That is the internal threshold within the text. The real trouble for us all is that we have no examples of healers who do not fail. In fact all the healing evangelist that I know admit to much more failure than success.

    Since I walk with one of the most notable healing evangelists of all time I thought I’d chime in. Whenever I survey my church 80% of the people will assert that they have been healed by Jesus in their bodies. 100% expect to die, of course we are not that focused on rapture so results vary.

    “He who supplies the Spirit and works miracles among you…” Does it by the hearing of faith…

    I won’t argue this matter, it accomplishes nothing, but I will testify that Jesus heals and I have seen it many many times, and like you, I have wept with those who did not receive. Grace and Peace

  115. Jean says:

    In agreement with BD at 3:41 pm. there’s an interesting story in Matthew Chapter 17.

    After Jesus, in Chapter 10 gave his disciples authority to cast out demons, in Chapter 17 we read that the disciples were unable, despite their efforts, to cast the demon out of a possessed young man.

    After Jesus cast the demon out, the disciples came and asked Him why they were unable to cast it out. Jesus said their failure was due to their lack of faith.

    Based on this pericope, Jesus’ teaching appears to be that the faith of the healer is relevant in the healing of the afflicted. I suppose that any prayer to God on behalf of another would not be particularly efficacious if the prayer himself or herself doesn’t have faith in their petition.

  116. Michael says:

    “I am always wondering what the threshold for credulity is.”
    This isn’t difficult.
    I personally have;
    A badly leaking heart valve
    2 aneurysms
    Diverticulitis
    Lung disease
    Degenerative arthritis in my hands and hips
    I have medical images and records of all of these maladies and they’re all available to me online.
    If the Lord were to heal me of any or all of them I could produce indisputable proof of healing within 24 hours.
    It’s that simple…show the records.

  117. CM says:

    Another thing that people tend to forget is that God uses the ordinary means to heal. Things like doctors, medicine, etc. But it is not nearly as bright and shiny as being healed in a Kuhlmann tent meeting.

    Isn’t the fact that we have access to the technology (like X-rays, MRIs), advancements in knowledge in medical science, surgery, biochemistry, etc. living in the 20th and 21st centuries that people just 100 years ago _did_ not have also a miracle from God?

  118. CM says:

    As an aside, I suspect one of the reasons pork was prohibited in the Old Testament was due to the fact pigs transmitted the tapeworm causing things such as Neurocysticercosis (cue Pilot Episde of House).

    God obviously knows this, you can see the difficulty detailing things such as germ theory, pathology, etc. to a bronze age culture where they don’t have a point of reference. Same thing with all dietary and cleanliness laws in the Old Testament. They know to follow them and that is beneficial to do so.

    By the way, this reason does not negate or supercede any and all other reasons why God put those in there.

  119. Em says:

    Tapeworm or trichinosis?

  120. MM says:

    “As an aside, I suspect one of the reasons pork was prohibited in the Old Testament was due to the fact pigs transmitted the tapeworm causing things such as Neurocysticercosis (cue Pilot Episde of House).”

    Wild pigs were a commonly used animal in pagan sacrifice. As far as pork being more toxic than beef, sheep, goats or other prohibited foods, it is probably not the issue at all.

    Even the Jewish people recognize eating prohibited items wasn’t based on health issues. It is not difficult to observe gentiles eating all sorts of things, including pork, without consequence so why is it prohibited?

    Because God’s instructions are to make them different from those who are not His.

    Of course one can attach all sorts of “spirituality” or practical purposes to these things, but in the end it is a commandment of God, therefore it’s because He said so.

    As a side note of interest check out how Canaanites imported donkeys from Egypt for sacrificial purposes. It seems the Egyptians had an export business to supply animals to them.

  121. MM says:

    BD

    “Since I walk with one of the most notable healing evangelists of all time…”

    If we let you off by not asking who this “notable healing evangelist” is we would be failing in our duties to others.

    So who is this person you “walk with?”

    Thank you!

    I won’t deny I’m rather doubtful of “healing ministries” and being honest it’s because back in my younger days I’ve been around a couple of really big names. Mind you though, I do not deny the healing Power of Jesus at all, just the individuals who promote themselves.

  122. Babylon's Dread says:

    Randy Clark… he is a serious theological mind. He eschews the lure of mass media pandering. He takes seriously the questions of those who doubt there is credible evidence. He is easily researchable and for critics no doubt, deconstructible as is anyone with so much public visibility.

    He does not as you say, promote himself, in any of the means normally associated with tv evangelist. (He is not one) I have known him well for over 20 years and he is self-effacing, genuine and frankly a very normal person.

    Grace and peace

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.